Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Turtletron on (00:23:28/09-08-10)

Title: Horrors
Post by: Turtletron on (00:23:28/09-08-10)
Do anyone have any idea what an Horror look like? What kind of power they have? What makes them different from other metaplanar beings like insect spirits and shedim? Are they all freaking powerhouse or some of them are weak? ???
I know I might get a few answer in the Ryan Mercury Trilogy novels, but I can't get a hold on any at the moment.  :(
Anyone wish to share his wisdom with me :'(
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: kinderkrieg on (00:28:37/09-08-10)
there actually is a story in the new spells and chrome where runner's are duped into grabbing the necronomicon out of a portal to a far plane during a ritual. good scene but i always have imagined them somewhat like that, beings of a lovecraftian make, but i'm still a newb so i probably haven't done enough research yet and am just blathering on nonsense...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Casazil on (00:28:47/09-08-10)
One of the horrors I remember is the wild hunt (Ithink Aina was actually working with one in ED) there was if memory serves a pic in one of the 2nd editions critter books.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Critias on (00:35:18/09-08-10)
The Wild Hunt's not a Horror, it's just The Wild Hunt.  Don't dwell on it.

Your best bet for Horror info would be actually checking out some Earthdawn books (if you can find 'em anywhere). 
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: kinderkrieg on (00:37:56/09-08-10)
they do have a 3rd ed. that they're currently printing through redbrick i believe
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (01:03:26/09-08-10)
You definitely have to go back to the Earthdawn game to get an idea on the horrors.

Let's put it this way, the last time the horrors came through ALL of the intelligent races locked themselves into heavily warded underground kaers (cavern/cities) and waited out the Scourge for four hundred years.

Yep, everyone. All the immortal elves, great dragons, the most powerful of the powerful hid for four hundred years and let the horrors just run around the world until magic ebbed low enough that they had to return to their own dimension.

My take is that it's close to the Cthulhu mythos, every horror is different. Different in appearance, attitude and hunger. And frag if I don't won't to run into something that scares the drek out of Lofwyr.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Turtletron on (01:25:54/09-08-10)
You definitely have to go back to the Earthdawn game to get an idea on the horrors.

Let's put it this way, the last time the horrors came through ALL of the intelligent races locked themselves into heavily warded underground kaers (cavern/cities) and waited out the Scourge for four hundred years.

Yep, everyone. All the immortal elves, great dragons, the most powerful of the powerful hid for four hundred years and let the horrors just run around the world until magic ebbed low enough that they had to return to their own dimension.

My take is that it's close to the Cthulhu mythos, every horror is different. Different in appearance, attitude and hunger. And frag if I don't won't to run into something that scares the drek out of Lofwyr.


I'll go look in earthdawn books and i agree, i also don't want to run into something that scared even the immortals and the dragons. :o
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (06:02:32/09-08-10)
As a fan of Earthdawn as well (I have 75 to 90% of those books, also own every edition), I'll put in my 2 nuyen.

Horrors don't have an overall look or feel to them.  Some have animalistic intelligence and will feed on anything: (in order of preference) intelligent life, animals, plants, inorganic material (aka rocks).  Others are just a step above and simply try to corrupt/consume people with a specific MO.  Two examples: winglflayers are a type of minor Horror that appears as a pile of metallic slivers that animate and flay a person or creature to death; baggi are an arboreal type of minor Horror that resemble an overinflated orangatan that swallow people whole and slowly digest them (think of a mobile Saarlac).

Then there are the more intelligent ones that feed off of pain or suffering or disgust.  For example:  a gharmek is a minor Horror that animates the dead and feeds off the revulsion it engenders in the living.  When they find someone who recognizes a fallen loved one, they quiver with ecstasy over the revulsion.  Another example is a wormskull.  It resembles a giant humanoid in brass armor with a head (sometimes an entire body) composed of worms.

These types of Horrors have many individuals representing the type, although there may be significant variation between them.

The most feared ones are the major or Named Horrors.  These aren't just satisfied with corrupting or feeding off of individuals, although they do greatly enjoy it.  These beings are dedicated to creating widespread fear or disgust or loathing.  They enjoy playing people off against each other, and they are also the ones who most often are the source of the "Devil's Bargain" style of stories.  They also have been known to attempt takeovers of entire kingdoms.  The Horror Bone Crown the Usurper took over the city of Parlainth and set all it's people against each other for the fun of it.  He wasn't the only one there doing it, he was just the one that got everyone organized into the mass murder squads.

Incidentally, baded upon my reading of the Dragonheart series, I think that Ryan Mercury actually killed Bone Crown during the attempted early invasion of the world.  The description is pretty close, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kaarchin on (09:50:36/09-08-10)
The Gun Nut said it.

Horrors can looks like almost anything, and sometimes they looks like everything. There is no common appearance.
Some of them are relatively weak, but still challenging. Some of them are absolutely unbeatable. Some you can not even actually fight.

Insect Spirit are something like a lesser form of Horror. Yup, a lesser form. They are the harbinger of unspeakable things to come.
Shedim on the other hand ARE Horrors. Minor as they can be.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Doc Chaos on (10:02:38/09-08-10)
Waitwaitwait, hold the phone, Insect Spirits are NOT the "bad" version of totems?? They are connected with the Horrors, too???
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (10:08:11/09-08-10)
No, not really.  It's more like their realm is in the same direction (metaphysically speaking) as the Horrors netherworld, but closer (i.e. easier to get to).  That's why they are often harbingers of the Horrors arrival.

And the Shedim aren't Horrors.  They are a form of psychic entity that takes over dead bodies.  In Earthdawn times they were called Vyrkanogen.  They can't exist in our realm without a meat body.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Doc Chaos on (10:18:39/09-08-10)
*PHEW* Man, don't scare me like that...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (11:01:00/09-08-10)
Actually, if you've read Corporate Guide, the Azzie section references back to the guy who was actively trying to build a way for the Horrors to come through.  The bit where it says that guy - Oscuro, his name was, and he got another exposure in the original Threats s/b as Mr Darke - is regarded as 'short-sighted' and too hasty . . .

Now if that's not a build-up or foreshadowing then what the hell is?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Texas_Tarantula on (11:02:36/09-08-10)
I believe there was a shadowrun novel that dealt with (in a somewhat roundabout way) a bunch of Hawai'ian shamans intentionally opening a portal for the horrors to come through, and it was described in much the same way that the denizens of the Cthulhu Mythos were - obliquely, or not at all, but colored by sheer terror. I think it was one of the Dirk Montgomery books, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mooncrow on (11:10:13/09-08-10)
Actually, if you've read Corporate Guide, the Azzie section references back to the guy who was actively trying to build a way for the Horrors to come through.  The bit where it says that guy - Oscuro, his name was, and he got another exposure in the original Threats s/b as Mr Darke - is regarded as 'short-sighted' and too hasty . . .

Now if that's not a build-up or foreshadowing then what the hell is?


Isn't that what the second Harlequin adventure was about?  (I've never actually run that one, but I thought that's what I heard)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Doc Chaos on (11:17:20/09-08-10)
I believe there was a shadowrun novel that dealt with (in a somewhat roundabout way) a bunch of Hawai'ian shamans intentionally opening a portal for the horrors to come through, and it was described in much the same way that the denizens of the Cthulhu Mythos were - obliquely, or not at all, but colored by sheer terror. I think it was one of the Dirk Montgomery books, but I could be wrong.

There was one that fits your description, yes.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (11:20:50/09-08-10)
The novel series with Mr. Darke is called the Dragonheart Saga.  It details the events surrounding the "assasination" of Dunkelzahn and the destruction of the spike bridge in astral space (which the Horrors were going to use).

The events in Hawai'i take place in the adventure Harlequin's Back.

For those of you in the know, H is a swordmaster and wizard adept.  Most likely of 13th Circle or higher in each (most likely 15th in each).  This makes him one of the most powerful beings to walk the planet.  Even great dragons would hesitate to do direct battle with him.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Turtletron on (13:14:27/09-08-10)
As a fan of Earthdawn as well (I have 75 to 90% of those books, also own every edition), I'll put in my 2 nuyen.

Horrors don't have an overall look or feel to them.  Some have animalistic intelligence and will feed on anything: (in order of preference) intelligent life, animals, plants, inorganic material (aka rocks).  Others are just a step above and simply try to corrupt/consume people with a specific MO.  Two examples: winglflayers are a type of minor Horror that appears as a pile of metallic slivers that animate and flay a person or creature to death; baggi are an arboreal type of minor Horror that resemble an overinflated orangatan that swallow people whole and slowly digest them (think of a mobile Saarlac).

Then there are the more intelligent ones that feed off of pain or suffering or disgust.  For example:  a gharmek is a minor Horror that animates the dead and feeds off the revulsion it engenders in the living.  When they find someone who recognizes a fallen loved one, they quiver with ecstasy over the revulsion.  Another example is a wormskull.  It resembles a giant humanoid in brass armor with a head (sometimes an entire body) composed of worms.

These types of Horrors have many individuals representing the type, although there may be significant variation between them.

The most feared ones are the major or Named Horrors.  These aren't just satisfied with corrupting or feeding off of individuals, although they do greatly enjoy it.  These beings are dedicated to creating widespread fear or disgust or loathing.  They enjoy playing people off against each other, and they are also the ones who most often are the source of the "Devil's Bargain" style of stories.  They also have been known to attempt takeovers of entire kingdoms.  The Horror Bone Crown the Usurper took over the city of Parlainth and set all it's people against each other for the fun of it.  He wasn't the only one there doing it, he was just the one that got everyone organized into the mass murder squads.

Incidentally, baded upon my reading of the Dragonheart series, I think that Ryan Mercury actually killed Bone Crown during the attempted early invasion of the world.  The description is pretty close, but I could be wrong.

Thanks for the info
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: anotherJack on (13:30:21/09-08-10)
Incidentally, baded upon my reading of the Dragonheart series, I think that Ryan Mercury actually killed Bone Crown during the attempted early invasion of the world.  The description is pretty close, but I could be wrong.
Read on a french forum that Bone Crow was suspected to be involved in some recent events in Siberia.
Same operation mode they said.

About horrors and spirits, don't think there's a clear difference.
In Street magic, some spirits clearly behave like horrors, feeding themselves with metahuman emotions.
"Horrors" is a generic term, including a lot of spirits types.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mooncrow on (13:31:25/09-08-10)
Incidentally, baded upon my reading of the Dragonheart series, I think that Ryan Mercury actually killed Bone Crown during the attempted early invasion of the world.  The description is pretty close, but I could be wrong.
Read on a french forum that Bone Crow was suspected to be involved in some recent events in Siberia.
Same operation mode they said.

About horrors and spirits, don't think there's a clear difference.
In Street magic, some spirits clearly behave like horrors, feeding themselves with metahuman emotions.
"Horrors" is a generic term, including a lot of spirits types.

I have to disagree; in the SR universe, the label Horror is fairly specific.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (13:50:50/09-08-10)
Definitely. Horrors, with the capital H, mean something else entirely in Shadowrun. It's like comparing you Analyze-6 program to Deus.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Casazil on (18:03:55/09-08-10)
I believe there was a shadowrun novel that dealt with (in a somewhat roundabout way) a bunch of Hawai'ian shamans intentionally opening a portal for the horrors to come through, and it was described in much the same way that the denizens of the Cthulhu Mythos were - obliquely, or not at all, but colored by sheer terror. I think it was one of the Dirk Montgomery books, but I could be wrong.

There was one that fits your description, yes.

House of the Sun by Findley
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Prime Mover on (18:34:10/09-08-10)
Insect sprits were the Invae from Earthdawn...a precursor spirit to the Horrors arrival but not horrors. (It's there arrival that got the IE's and Dragons in a huff and alerted them to the "bridge" I believe.)

The only statted horror like creatures in SR were the two types of creatures that attended Mr.Darke (Oscuro) in the Harlequins Back adventure.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (21:41:38/09-08-10)
Actually, if you've read Corporate Guide, the Azzie section references back to the guy who was actively trying to build a way for the Horrors to come through.  The bit where it says that guy - Oscuro, his name was, and he got another exposure in the original Threats s/b as Mr Darke - is regarded as 'short-sighted' and too hasty . . .

Now if that's not a build-up or foreshadowing then what the hell is?


Isn't that what the second Harlequin adventure was about?  (I've never actually run that one, but I thought that's what I heard)

Speaking of 'Harlequin' & 'Harlequin's Back' . . . is there any implication that the runners who do either, and survive, get taken out because they 'know too much'?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: BlackMyron on (23:12:45/09-08-10)
 Brightlight's "Great Work" in Black Madonna is implied to basically be a modern version of the "kaers" from Earthdawn, or at least it was  (if there's any lesson that should be learned from the novels, it's that even immortal elves and other great dragons don't get away with ripping off Lofwyr)

 As a general rule, the magic level has to be fairly high for them to appear (IIRC the general level won't be high enough for centuries to come, according to sources in the know).  One of the overarching plotlines of the 2050s SR was that there was a threat they could 'leak' through at places where the magic level was high enough, as a sort of 'bridge', deliberate or otherwise.  (Considering that the site of the Great Ghost Dance was one, it's ironic that Sam Verner's attempt to fix his disastrous blunder in Find Your Own Truth almost caused another).  The Dragonheart trilogy essentially ended that plot arc, but the implication in the Corporate Guide is interesting.

  The runners that did participate in Harlequin's Back are mentioned in the Aztlan posts when Dunk and company are discussing where the secrets of 'blood magic' leaked out from (although Harlequin dismisses them as a source on the subject).

  The Wild Hunt are definitely not Horrors - they are labelled as 'unique spirits' in Magic in the Shadows.

  Harlequin mentions the differences between the insect spirits (invae) and the Horrors in Harlequin's Back - for one, the latter aren't spirits.  He labels the insect spirits more as 'nuisiances' whose appearance was hastened by the Dance.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Turtletron on (23:53:34/09-08-10)
Brightlight's "Great Work" in Black Madonna is implied to basically be a modern version of the "kaers" from Earthdawn, or at least it was  (if there's any lesson that should be learned from the novels, it's that even immortal elves and other great dragons don't get away with ripping off Lofwyr)

 As a general rule, the magic level has to be fairly high for them to appear (IIRC the general level won't be high enough for centuries to come, according to sources in the know).  One of the overarching plotlines of the 2050s SR was that there was a threat they could 'leak' through at places where the magic level was high enough, as a sort of 'bridge', deliberate or otherwise.  (Considering that the site of the Great Ghost Dance was one, it's ironic that Sam Verner's attempt to fix his disastrous blunder in Find Your Own Truth almost caused another).  The Dragonheart trilogy essentially ended that plot arc, but the implication in the Corporate Guide is interesting.

  The runners that did participate in Harlequin's Back are mentioned in the Aztlan posts when Dunk and company are discussing where the secrets of 'blood magic' leaked out from (although Harlequin dismisses them as a source on the subject).

  The Wild Hunt are definitely not Horrors - they are labelled as 'unique spirits' in Magic in the Shadows.

  Harlequin mentions the differences between the insect spirits (invae) and the Horrors in Harlequin's Back - for one, the latter aren't spirits.  He labels the insect spirits more as 'nuisiances' whose appearance was hastened by the Dance.

Looks like there's a lot of info in Harlequin's Back, a friend o'mine got the book, i'll borrow it from him if i can.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Casazil on (01:19:22/09-09-10)
I think Harlequin & Harlequin's Back are the 2 largest modules written
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (09:59:46/09-09-10)
I generally only collect the sourcebooks, and not the adventures.  So it's quite a stroke of luck that I have Harlequin at all.  Don't believe I have HB, but I'd have to check my cabinets.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Prime Mover on (10:03:32/09-09-10)
Yea Used to be that way too hardly ever picked up an adventure other then earliest ones and the Harlequin series.  Ive since gone back and collected almost all of them and regret not having picked some of them up earlier.  Ton of info and metaplot clues in a few of them.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Prime Mover on (10:09:24/09-09-10)
Update to my previous post Darke (Oscuro's) Horror servants included "Crawlers" & "Gun Toads" that showed up in H2 and Threats 1.  
(Whats the rule for using official art on an official forum?  Wouldn't mind being able to post pics from books for reference.)

EDIT: Crawlers used two tentacles to strike at target and remove reaction.  Gum Toads oozed slime and pounced on you to create a "binding" effect.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (11:07:02/09-09-10)
Update to my previous post Darke (Oscuro's) Horror servants included "Crawlers" & "Gun Toads" that showed up in H2 and Threats 1. 
(Whats the rule for using official art on an official forum?  Wouldn't mind being able to post pics from books for reference.)

EDIT: Crawlers used two tentacles to strike at target and remove reaction.  Gum Toads oozed slime and pounced on you to create a "binding" effect.
Well, all I can say is that I grabbed the pic in my sig from SR4 20th and no one's yelled at me yet (at least not about the content...).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Bisharian on (14:09:01/09-09-10)
Insect sprits were the Invae from Earthdawn...a precursor spirit to the Horrors arrival but not horrors. (It's there arrival that got the IE's and Dragons in a huff and alerted them to the "bridge" I believe.)

The only statted horror like creatures in SR were the two types of creatures that attended Mr.Darke (Oscuro) in the Harlequins Back adventure.

If insect spirits are a precursor to Horrors, then I suggest researching the Chicago quarrentine. Also, there has been a lot if activity in Hong Kong recently regarding Ares Firewatch Teams. Being that Hong Kong's astral energies are extremely unstable, because of corp manipulation, this might explain some of the rumors about The Yama Kings who inhabit Kowloon Walled City. With all the spikes and astral shallows appearing and dissappearing all throughout Hong Kong, I would take a guess that Horrors have began to return...

[Update]: The Ares Firewatch teams, specifically the bug hunters, were called in when the Hong Kong police conducted raids recently.
Also, there seem to be named Yama Kings, or Horrors, working their powers in Kowloon Walled City.
Chih-Shiang: judge of souls, makes residents of Kowloon Walled City believe they are there for bad karma from past lives.
The Ebony Queen Lam Vy: teaches her followers to hide from the Yama Kings, until they hide so well they become roaches.
Fu Mang, the Serpent of the Setting Sun: Promises wealth to those who bring him 44 hearts of family and friends, removed when the victim is alive.
It is speculated that between 10-20 of these Yama Kings reside in Kowloon Walled City. All this info is from Runner Havens.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: BlackMyron on (19:52:12/09-09-10)
 I believe the Yama Kings are 'shadow spirits', not Horrors - Ghost Cartels labels the one the 'runners can fight (Chin You) as one.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (17:57:39/09-10-10)
If the Horrors are coming back, I'm going to start building my kaer.  *Looks around*  Now where did I leave my copy of Rites of Protection and Passage?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Casazil on (18:10:22/09-10-10)
Bah just take one of the ones thats still here!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (18:12:20/09-10-10)
Good point.  It's too much work to build one.  But it's still probably a better idea than what those chumps in Parlainth tried.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: bobo69 on (23:13:26/09-10-10)
Personally I think the Yama kings or the so called "Shadow Spirits" are horrors albeit weak ones.

The looks and powers of the Yama Kings and Shadow Spirits are very similiar to the horrors.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Faradon on (23:53:56/09-10-10)
If the Horrors are coming back, I'm going to start building my kaer.  *Looks around*  Now where did I leave my copy of Rites of Protection and Passage?

Bah, frak that noise, I'm building Vault 13... just have to remember to have plenty of spare water chips...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (00:12:58/09-11-10)
Quote
Bah, frak that noise, I'm building Vault 13... just have to remember to have plenty of spare water chips...
Good luck with that.  It may keep out the gnashers and other low power Horror wannabes, but the big boys will tear it apart.  And that's ignoring the Vault's total lack of astral protection.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: BlackMyron on (00:23:25/09-11-10)
 Ah, but nothing says 'magical background count' like lots of radiation...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (00:24:40/09-11-10)
Have fun with the toxics.  I'm sure they'll love you.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Doc Chaos on (02:57:29/09-11-10)
Afk (moving my stuff to fragging MARS!)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Bisharian on (16:27:16/09-11-10)
Are there any powerful "good" spirits? Or are we suppose to prevent the horrors return by being good ourselves?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Grinder on (17:02:52/09-11-10)
Well... the Passions actively fought the Horrors during the last Scourge (some went mad over that, some died...), but if they are around this time to help metahumanity again is unknown.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: dodger on (17:03:57/09-11-10)
I don't think you can prevent them from coming back just by "being good". Everything I can remember leads me to believe that the Horrors return is linked only to the rising and falling of the magic level of our world. The Ghost Dance only speed up the cycle and created a spike in the magic level, that in turn made an outcropping in the astral rift between our side of the metaplanes and the Horrors. In this, the cycle was sped up by like 2500 years. But I'm a little fuzzy on this. The Dragon Heart Saga are the novels to read to get the rest of the story, as well as the adventure Harlequin's Back.( The events that take place in that happen before the Dragon Heart Saga)

-Dodger
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Welshman on (20:50:13/09-11-10)
Afk (moving my stuff to fragging MARS!)

We're sorry but Mars has been lent to another game system and is currently unavailable for use. You can try Luna, but we here that the Dragon's rather like Luna.

Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (10:05:40/09-12-10)
Well... the Passions actively fought the Horrors during the last Scourge (some went mad over that, some died...), but if they are around this time to help metahumanity again is unknown.
In the base Earthdawn setting (Barsaive) none of the Passions fought the Horrors.  Three of the twelve for Barsaive went mad (and there are, of course, theories as to why) but the bulk of them are ok.

In another province of the Theran empire, Vasgothia, the Passions there actively fought the Horrors with their worshippers.  And were torn to bits as a result.  In the forests there, one can stumble across such "Fruit of the Passions" every so often.  Eating one (yuck) gives the character some pretty interesting powers.  Quite variable, however, so one never knows what one will get.

There are also "Fruits of the Horrors" scattered about.  These are pieces of major Horrors (god-like in power, comparable to great dragons or even stronger) that were slain by the Passions and their followers.  Eating one of those...well, do I need to go into details?  The problem is that the two "Fruits" look exactly alike.  Good luck with that...

The overall mana level is what allows the Horrors to enter the world.  However, when the mana in a specific location has been drastically altered/increased (such as the spike point from the Great Ghost Dance) then it can create a narrow tunnel or bridge between the worlds to allow some of the Horros to enter early.  The big ones can't spread out far from the spike; they need the higher mana level just to exist within our world.  Some of the minor ones can still cause damage, but without sufficient numbers, the threat would be contained to a limited region.

The problem there, of course, is that the major Horrors will be doing all the can to increase the ambient mana level in the area surrounding the spike.  Once you give them a toe hold, the only thing I can think of that would stop them would be a nuke.  And due to the second major use of the Great Ghost Dance in 2049-50, nuclear weapons are problematic (see what happened in Chicago for more information).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: BlackMyron on (12:19:41/09-12-10)
 The Cermak Blast was special, though - the nuke went off inside a powerful magic shield being erected by the insect hives, and was "concentrated" because of that.

  The Second Great Ghost Dance was designed to neutralize specific nukes, which is why the teams had to go to the physical locations of the nukes they were destroying, as well as to limit Spider.

  (And as Harlequin's Back implied, it probably also helped along Mr. Darke's plans by increasing the magic levels at the Ghost Dance site even more).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: anotherJack on (12:28:07/09-12-10)
Whatever, mana and radiations interactions are impredictable, not sure it would be a great idea to nuke horrors, they could like it  :-\
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (12:44:57/09-12-10)
Whatever, mana and radiations interactions are impredictable, not sure it would be a great idea to nuke horrors, they could like it  :-\
Or, to put it another way... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM8SdkeL4SA)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: anotherJack on (12:47:49/09-12-10)
Very good example  ;D
Made me think that Horrors' humour might be terrific.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: BlackMyron on (13:26:09/09-12-10)
 Or the old joke from the Cthulhu Now setting for CoC:

  "What happens if you nuke Cthulhu?  He reforms twenty minutes later, and now he's radioactive!"
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Doc Chaos on (13:33:01/09-12-10)
Yeah, because "The end of the world" jokes have never been more funny than when it's really right around the corner :D
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: bobo69 on (13:34:57/09-12-10)
Yeah Vasgothia, epic battle there, the horrors got smashed also in the process.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Turtletron on (15:54:04/09-13-10)
Well... the Passions actively fought the Horrors during the last Scourge (some went mad over that, some died...), but if they are around this time to help metahumanity again is unknown.
In the base Earthdawn setting (Barsaive) none of the Passions fought the Horrors.  Three of the twelve for Barsaive went mad (and there are, of course, theories as to why) but the bulk of them are ok.

In another province of the Theran empire, Vasgothia, the Passions there actively fought the Horrors with their worshippers.  And were torn to bits as a result.  In the forests there, one can stumble across such "Fruit of the Passions" every so often.  Eating one (yuck) gives the character some pretty interesting powers.  Quite variable, however, so one never knows what one will get.

There are also "Fruits of the Horrors" scattered about.  These are pieces of major Horrors (god-like in power, comparable to great dragons or even stronger) that were slain by the Passions and their followers.  Eating one of those...well, do I need to go into details?  The problem is that the two "Fruits" look exactly alike.  Good luck with that...

The overall mana level is what allows the Horrors to enter the world.  However, when the mana in a specific location has been drastically altered/increased (such as the spike point from the Great Ghost Dance) then it can create a narrow tunnel or bridge between the worlds to allow some of the Horros to enter early.  The big ones can't spread out far from the spike; they need the higher mana level just to exist within our world.  Some of the minor ones can still cause damage, but without sufficient numbers, the threat would be contained to a limited region.

The problem there, of course, is that the major Horrors will be doing all the can to increase the ambient mana level in the area surrounding the spike.  Once you give them a toe hold, the only thing I can think of that would stop them would be a nuke.  And due to the second major use of the Great Ghost Dance in 2049-50, nuclear weapons are problematic (see what happened in Chicago for more information).

Do you think that a few of those "fruits" could still exist in the Shadowrun setting? maybe in another form?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: anotherJack on (15:55:59/09-13-10)
Like a fruitcake ?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (15:56:58/09-13-10)
Like a fruitcake ?
Adds a whole new level to the fruitcake Dunkelzahn and Alamais sent back and forth, for sure. ;D
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Turtletron on (16:35:49/09-13-10)
It would be a super fruitcake :P
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Stormdrake on (10:43:02/09-14-10)
I have been using the Cthulhu "Old Ones" in my game as the remnents of Passions and and their followers twisted by the Horrors in previous upswings in the magic cycle.  This way I leave the Horrros as undefined while having all sorts of wonderful descriptive abominations making life unpleasent for my players.  

I find using the various Cthulhu races and entities in this way adds to the terror of the Horrors because they don't just kill you, they twist you into new forms and unleash them on the world to create the very emotions the Horros need/want to feed on.

Just my two cents.

PS. Will have to go look up my copy of HB and see what the two listed Horrors are like.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (12:16:07/09-14-10)
That's what the Horrors do, too.  Except that they do it for a reason, other than not being interested in the affairs of mortals...oh, wait.  If they aren't interested in the affairs of mortals, then why do they bother in the first place?  Cthulhu mythos falls apart a little bit there.

The Horrors have a clear reason to twist and mutilate and terrorize humanity:  They feed on the pain and suffering it causes amongst humanity.  That makes tons more sense than "you are beneath my notice, I shall not even bother with you NOWDIEDIEDIE!"
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: bobo69 on (12:18:13/09-14-10)
Yes the horrors are preety twisted, another close inspiration are those chaos abominations from Warhammer.

And horrors can appear in any shape or form...(items, gigantic monsters, etc.). The most dangerous horrors are those who are quite subtle and corrupt namegivers. But of course a charging 50 foot mutated spider horror will make anyone run.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (12:28:32/09-14-10)
No offense to the Cthulhu or Warhammer Chaos loving guys but, none of those baddies make any sense.  The Cthulhu ones are at least interesting, but the Chaos enemies are just out for the kill, and are largely uninteresting to me.  They also aren't very...chaotic.  Given that they ALWAYS appear in certain forms, and have set goals and plans, they are a bit contradictory.  Not really Chaos-ey.  And their motivations are just...well...epic for the sake of having an epic foe, really.  They just don't grab me.

The Horrors, OTOH, have understandable, if sick and twisted, motivations.  And they have the powers and abilities to ensure that they need never confront anyone directly and risk themselves.  The more mindless ones jump into the fray and fight (and quite well) but the more intelligent and powerful ones don't need to and are smart enough to deny their prey any hope of escape.  Think about it, if you were a hunter in the woods searching for his next meal, would you give it any chance to harm you or escape?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: bobo69 on (13:52:44/09-14-10)
As said, the cthulhu and warhammer are just for inspiration. The horrors can appear in any shape or form(if any at all) or even an idea. A horror as an idea(every watch the movie Pontypool).

Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (14:49:47/09-14-10)
Pontypool?  No, what's that about?

As far as inspiration for looks goes, ya.  Cthulhu and Chaos have some interesting visuals.  Many are downright freaky and creepy and all things scary.  I just have the problem with motivation.  The whole "it does this because it doesn't think like us" always seemed a cop-out.

But back to visuals.  There is an artist that has done lots of work for Games Workshop and he has a pretty distinctive style.  Everything looks like it is covered in spikes and thorns and looks like every bit of the creature/character/personality sort of grew out of it.  Like it's armor is just an extension of its skin or something.  Freaky, and I like it for some things (mosters or Chaos) but feel it is out of place anywhere else.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Juxtamon on (14:53:58/09-14-10)
Pontypool!  Points for you, sir!  Awesome!  Killer viral idea.

That, for some reason, reminds me of the horror/possession flick with Denzel as agent/investigator fella...bodyhopping evil possessing thing.  Not directly reminds, but just as an idea for a nasty Horror idea...

  Great.  Now to make sure Enderby doesn't read this...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: bobo69 on (14:57:51/09-14-10)
Actually the warhammer 40K and Warhammer fantasy RPGs made by Fantasy Flight games are somewhat diverging from the usual big ugly mutated chaos monster. Its actually becoming kinda like gothic horror.

Anyways, besides being an idea. A horror could be a room like 1408(great movie with John Cusack).

Yeah Pontypool, good movie.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: bobo69 on (15:00:38/09-14-10)
Yeah, the movie Fallen...good movie too.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (15:02:27/09-14-10)
There is a Horror in Earthdawn called Ristul, which is short for some phrase meaning "action eternally corrupting."  Basically, if something becomes corrupted by Ristul, then it becomes a part of Ristul.  People corrupted become the Ristular, and their souls are atomized and mixed together with that of Ristul and every being or creature that has ever been corrupted by Ristul.  Intelligent beings corrupted by Ristul are aware of everything that happened to them, but become part of the whole, and aware of all the others.  They know they are not themselves, they are aware of it, but they are absorbed into the spiritual mass of Ristul and do its will.  Which becomes their will, as well.  It's a little disturbing.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: bobo69 on (16:36:21/09-14-10)
I'd like to see Artificer break into the Shadowrun world. This Horror can really wreck a lot of damage especially on tech.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: anotherJack on (17:32:15/09-14-10)
Yup. If one of them can understand and attack the matrix, it's Artificer.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (21:46:48/09-14-10)
Yup. If one of them can understand and attack the matrix, it's Artificer.

Hmm . . . Artificer as Dissonance?  Or (even more disturbing) the Deep Resonance?!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Lansdren on (04:07:10/09-15-10)
Time is on my side




Yes it is




Can someone fill me in on this Artificer horror? I migth need a techno threat in my next run and was thinking a AI but something more odd could be fun
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (05:25:51/09-15-10)
Artificer is a powerful great form earth elemental that the Horrors corrupted and turned into one of their own.  His big thing is making dungeon complexes filled with traps.  He is the explanation for the fantasy trope of trap-filled dungeon complexes.  The traps are almost always complex mechanical/magical traps that are traps within traps.  He feeds on the pain and suffering caused by his traps upon people.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (06:16:35/09-15-10)
so Artificer, in turn, Corrupted Gary Gygax?  ::) ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Doc Chaos on (08:05:11/09-15-10)
I wouldn't say corrupted, but they had a regular poker game going.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: anotherJack on (08:15:39/09-15-10)
Artificer is a powerful great form earth elemental that the Horrors corrupted and turned into one of their own.  His big thing is making dungeon complexes filled with traps.  He is the explanation for the fantasy trope of trap-filled dungeon complexes.  The traps are almost always complex mechanical/magical traps that are traps within traps.  He feeds on the pain and suffering caused by his traps upon people.
Note that it counts for the "no-real-difference-between-spirits-and-horrors" theory  ;D
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (08:28:38/09-15-10)
Except that Artificer isn't a spirit anymore.  It is now a Horror/elemental.  A blending of the two distinct entities.

Horrors aren't always astral beings (odd as that sounds).  Sometimes they are purely physical, sometimes purely astral.  And sometimes they are both at the same time.  Note that they aren't dual natured, they are a (1) physical body and (2) an astral body separate from the physical one.  The Horrors that have both bodies are extremely hard to kill, since if you simply kill the physical body, the astral form (which can be elsewhere) will create a new one.  And if you slay the astral form, the physical body creates an astral one, kind of like a sponge budding off a new form.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: anotherJack on (08:47:44/09-15-10)
Okay, so if there's purely physical horrors, [horrors] are not simply a part of [spirits], as I thought.
You killed my theory  :'(
Among the purely physical ones, is there any which has an origin in the metaplanes ? the only purely physical horrors I know are the humans who are part of Rystul, but they do not come from the metaplanes, they've been corrupted here, on Earth.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Grinder on (11:56:00/09-15-10)
I'd like to see Artificer break into the Shadowrun world. This Horror can really wreck a lot of damage especially on tech.

Would give the whole Renraku Arcology setting a new, interesting twist.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (12:09:48/09-15-10)
How do you know Artificer didn't help 'tweak' Deus into existence?  :o
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: DarkLloyd on (05:28:03/09-17-10)
How do you know Artificer didn't help 'tweak' Deus into existence?  :o
THAT Sir is EEEEeeeeeeeVIL!!!!!!!!! :o
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Lansdren on (04:59:29/09-30-10)
Looks like Artificer isnt all bad considering he's a mentor spirit


Artificer
Artificer is the inventor, craftsman, and smith; the true
symbol of humanity’s ingenuity and resourcefulness. His tools,
and those of his followers, empower mankind to conquer all
obstacles. He is not always as skilled at understanding people
as he is at analyzing the world, however, which may make him
and his followers difficult to deal with or easy to manipulate.
Mythical figures such as Hephaestus and Daedalus are common
interpretations of Artificer, as are the Celtic Goibhniu
and Norse Weland.
Advantages: +2 dice for Manipulation spells, +2 dice to
Enchanting Tests.
Disadvantages: Artificer magicians are easily distracted
by new and unusual finds or a persistent problem. When
faced with something he has never seen before or a problem
he can not easily solve, the Artificer magician must make a
Willpower + Charisma (3) Test to resist examining the situation
at length. The magician will not put his life in danger
just to examine a new device, but he will take the next safe
opportunity to do so.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: anotherJack on (09:40:50/09-30-10)
Two options : or it's the real "artificer", then it has been cleansed, and returned to its primary form of Great Elemental spirit, or it's the same name but not the same spirit.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (10:07:33/09-30-10)
Or Artificer can just be an archetype for a host of possible mentor spirits, and not the actual Horror Artificer (which isn't it's real name anyway).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FoxBoy on (00:20:55/10-01-10)
Would you guys believe I actually got my GM to sign off on the whole 'horrors returning' angle for our tabletop game? It's been a few years since I played ED so I'm working off of memory. We just finished one major story arc but in the progress created about 6-8 minor ones, and this is a major one he'll be looking to incorporate.

To start with, he wants to see how earthdawn magic differs from SR4 and /why/ it was so dangerous, so I'm already in the process of writing it up. I've got something already in place for magic items, ED style taken to SR4, but the parts I'm still fuzzy on is whose considered a name giver, and I know an ED adept are the players plus others who can use circle based magics.

Seeing as the horror's arrival is synced to the magic cycle, can someone start feeding me data on what to include, like what horrors can/will be seen when, and in what mana warps they'll appear in?

My foxy picked up divination as a metamagic here, so he's going to have some fun with that one... that's how he's planning to introduce some of our secondary goals from here on out.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (19:12:30/10-01-10)
A Namegiver is basically any member of a sentient species.  So humans, orks, merrows, sasquatches, dragons, pixies, and so on would all be Namegivers.

Earthdawn magic wasn't really dangerous in and of itself.  It was just more powerful and varied because the magic level was higher and they had a longer background of using and researching it.  Blood magic, especially in the form of charms, was more accepted and fairly widely used.  The Horrors came, not because of anything Namegivers were doing in particular, but simply because the mana level got high enough for them to push through into our world.

And gnashers would probably be the first Horrors to appear.  They're weak (relatively), simple minded eating machines that kill and eat everything they come across.  They'll even eat rocks and trees if nothing else is around.  Basically, the weaker Horrors show up first--kreescra, mindslugs, the aforementioned gnashers, etc--followed by ever more powerful Horrors as the magic level rises.  They would probably show up most often around areas aspected to negative emotions most often.  So toxic zones, serial killer haunts, and the sites of concentration camps and mass murders would attract them.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (10:06:59/10-02-10)
Auschwitz would likely be their Disney World.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (15:23:48/10-02-10)
Yeah, we've created plenty of horrible little amusement parks for them.  No wonder they come here to gorge.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Cheesedapplications on (11:22:25/10-03-10)
I believe we're missing the real question here:

How do you kill them?

It obviously can be done, now lets get someone working on mass producing the equipment and soldiers you need to do it. I'm thinking FAB III saturation bombing and lots of drones. THEN you send in the ground troops. Incidentally, I bet those companies that make 'stick and shock" rounds are going to watch their stock prices skyrocket.   
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Welshman on (13:21:14/10-03-10)
I believe we're missing the real question here:

How do you kill them?

It obviously can be done, now lets get someone working on mass producing the equipment and soldiers you need to do it. I'm thinking FAB III saturation bombing and lots of drones. THEN you send in the ground troops. Incidentally, I bet those companies that make 'stick and shock" rounds are going to watch their stock prices skyrocket.   

Re-runs of Strawberry Shortcake?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (02:18:28/10-04-10)
FAB III would definately help with the astral ones.  The only snag might be with the Horror that takes the form of a disease.  Microscopic razor goblins might have fun corrupting them.

Not kidding.  That Horror exists.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (14:11:25/10-04-10)
They're called dread iotas if anyone is wondering.

But as for killing them.  Most Horrors can only truly be killed in astral space.  Destroying their physical form just inconveniences them until they can make a new one.  This is doubly true for the really powerful ones who tend to have separate physical and astral forms that can pretty easily recreate the other.  I'm not sure how effective FAB III would be against them.  The Horrors would probably just end up corrupting the FAB and remaking it into a Horror construct.  They do that.  They're jerks like that.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Angelone on (14:24:21/10-04-10)
That's why you kill them. Kill them with fire. Lots and lots of fire.

If that fails you get an old priest and a young priest. While they distract it you run.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (14:26:11/10-04-10)
As the old saying goes, "You don't need to be the fastest, just faster than the fatty."  Of course, it says nothing about being Horror marked so.....
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (14:44:05/10-04-10)
For those wondering, a Horror Mark is a mystical link between the Horror and it's victim.  The power varies with each Horror, but the basic Mark allows the Horror to apply any ability upon or through the victim to a range of 10 miles.  It can only apply non-damaging powers for a range of 100 miles.  And it can communicate telepathically with the victim up to a range of 1000 miles.  These ranges and properties, like I said earlier, vary with each Horror.  Some have a limited range, some extend further.

Getting Horror Marked is a nasty, nasty business.  Unless you happen to be or know someone exceptionally powerful (equivalent to an initiate grade 5+) who can enter the astral and hunt the thing down, then you are basically stuck with incredible amounts of suffering and pain.  Not even death is a sure way to escape, as many of the more powerful Horrors simply raise your body as an undead monster or torment your spirit and convert it into a shadow wraith.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (14:47:33/10-04-10)
There was a spell in EarthDawn that let you remove a Horror Mark from someone.  Problem was, Horror Marks are harder than hell to detect in the first place and the spell itself was difficult and dangerous.  So yeah, like Gun Nut said, the only real option was killing the damn Horror that Marked you.  And good luck with that!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (14:51:35/10-04-10)
The spell is called, imaginatively enough, Remove Horror Mark.  It is a 13th circle spell (again, roughly equivalent to requiring an initiate to get to grade 5 and then taking the spell separately as a one shot Named super specific spell).

Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Angelone on (15:01:26/10-04-10)
Honestly I don't see what the big deal about Horrors are. The Drop Bear Legions will just eat all their faces once they arrive.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (15:04:29/10-04-10)
The Horrors probably either made them to begin with or would remake them into something more horrible and slaved to their will.

But you know, even fairly weak Horrors can do things like make your skin peel off and rotate around your body, shatter your bones by looking at you, cut you from the inside out, make spikes grow out of your bones, and infect you with diseases that make VITAS looks like a summer cold.  But yeah, drop bears.....
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Angelone on (15:29:18/10-04-10)
The elven propoganda machine might have you believe it was Harlequin and Assets Inc. that stopped the early onslaught of the Horrors brought about by Oscuro. Those however are lies, the Horrors where stopped by the Drop Bears. And I for one will always remember the brave furry souls who impaled themselves on Bonecrown so their fellow cuddly warriors of rightousness could defeat the horrible menace.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (15:33:38/10-04-10)
 :D  Somebody is clearly in the pocket of the drop bear lobby.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Angelone on (15:38:13/10-04-10)
 ;) They pay well and have promised me all the eucalyptis I can eat. I tried explaining I don't eat eucalyptis, but it didn't turn out too well.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (15:41:16/10-04-10)
 :D  I learned long ago that the only way to win an argument with a drop bear is if you are armed with a shotgun.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Doc Chaos on (15:51:47/10-04-10)
Only if they want to let you win. Sooner or later, you run out of ammo... they don't run out of bears that soon.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (15:55:53/10-04-10)
Hmmm.  You may have a point there.  Good thing I'm a grenade obsessed mage, huh?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (16:14:13/10-04-10)
I'll loan you my full-auto grenade launcher.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (16:17:06/10-04-10)
 ;D  Sweet.  Thanks.  That'll learn those lousy leaf-eating, falling bastards.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (16:21:51/10-04-10)
Y'know, if on drop bear falls on the grenade, it *should* muffle the damage to the other bears.

Your grenades may not save you in this instance. Just piss them off for sacrificing "Billy".
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (16:23:19/10-04-10)
Yeah, but with air-burst and forty grenades flying at them all at once I should be able to kill enough of them to make an escape.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (16:33:05/10-04-10)
Until you realize they're herding you to their companions.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (16:35:12/10-04-10)
Lousy drop bear bastards.  I'll just levitate myself out of reach and rain death down on them.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (16:37:10/10-04-10)
Watch out for the thunderbirds then. ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (16:39:42/10-04-10)
Gaaahhh!  Screw this.  I'm going to live in a damn bunker.  I hate wildlife!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (16:42:20/10-04-10)
"Crikey! We got th' Monky right inna box. Now let's see what 'appens when the devil rat wakes up!"
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (16:44:32/10-04-10)
*Finishes Call Horror spell* Mwahahahahahahahah!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (16:50:24/10-04-10)
Damn. Was hoping you'd toss a grenade at it. In the reinforced barrier bunker with reverberating blast waves bouncing back and forth. And you, locked inside with the rat. ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (16:53:53/10-04-10)
The Horror ate the rat so I got out my PS3.  It seems enamored with Katamari Forever.

EDIT
Fixed a typo.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (16:55:18/10-04-10)
The Horror at the rat so I got out my PS3.  It seems enamored with Katamari Forever.
Who isn't? :D
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (16:57:44/10-04-10)
Indeed.  The King of All Cosmos rules all.  Even the Horrors know their place.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (16:59:32/10-04-10)
Wasn't Katamari Forever a devious invention of Yrsthgrathe?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (17:01:32/10-04-10)
Could be.  But if playing Katamari means damning my soul, then to hell I go.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Angelone on (17:12:26/10-04-10)
Never understood the draw fo that game honestly. Wasn't Yrsthgrathe already killed?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (17:19:54/10-04-10)
Katamari is like bizarre, acid-fueled crack.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Angelone on (17:31:49/10-04-10)
Guess it's one of those things I won't get. Kinda like Guitar Hero/Rockband. Now one game that's like crack to me is Pain. Slingshotting stereotypes into walls and such. Sign me up.

Anyway to get this somewhat on track. The Horror thread on Dumpshock is 50some pages, the Drop Bear thread is 112 pages. Who's the bigger threat?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (17:53:55/10-04-10)
I could easily make a thread about drop bears 100 pages long.  But 98 pages of that would be me making fun of them.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (07:38:27/10-05-10)
Guess it's one of those things I won't get. Kinda like Guitar Hero/Rockband. Now one game that's like crack to me is Pain. Slingshotting stereotypes into walls and such. Sign me up.

Anyway to get this somewhat on track. The Horror thread on Dumpshock is 50some pages, the Drop Bear thread is 112 pages. Who's the bigger threat?
Their advertising skills are unmatched.  The drop bears have a better PR department, mainly because they can't truly hurt anyone.  I've had, like, 4 drop bears hit me at the same time, and the worst I got from it was a laundry bill 'cause one of them was incontinent.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (13:36:52/10-05-10)
 :D  They're almost as worthless as pandas.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (13:47:31/10-05-10)
:D  They're almost as worthless as pandas.
Careful, Monky. Pandas got friends (http://www.pvponline.com/2007/11/14/wed-nov-14/)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (13:55:25/10-05-10)
Phbbt.  Pandas.   ::)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Doc Chaos on (14:08:42/10-05-10)
:D  They're almost as worthless as pandas.
Careful, Monky. Pandas got friends (http://www.pvponline.com/2007/11/14/wed-nov-14/)

Yeah, but so do we.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: freddieflatline on (15:16:42/10-10-10)
Do anyone have any idea what an Horror look like? What kind of power they have? What makes them different from other metaplanar beings like insect spirits and shedim? Are they all freaking powerhouse or some of them are weak? ???
I know I might get a few answer in the Ryan Mercury Trilogy novels, but I can't get a hold on any at the moment.  :(
Anyone wish to share his wisdom with me :'(

Hey if you are interested in getting the Ryan Mercury books and are in the United States.  Try doing an interlibrary loan through your local library.  I usually find that the fastest way to get hard to find novels.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (18:38:53/11-15-10)
I've just gnawed my way through the thread. This will be a truly epic post. 8-th circle at the least. :P
I know some of this was already covered, but i wrote this on the fly.

Incidentally, baded upon my reading of the Dragonheart series, I think that Ryan Mercury actually killed Bone Crown during the attempted early invasion of the world.  The description is pretty close, but I could be wrong.
Nut, remember, that almost all of the Named Horrors are Dual-Natured. So if he did, he only killed his astral or physical form. Bone Crown will be back... :P

Insect Spirit are something like a lesser form of Horror. Yup, a lesser form. They are the harbinger of unspeakable things to come.
Nope. They are something else. An alien spirit form from the metaplanes. They're not counted among Horrors in ED, and i'd say that matters.

[quoteauthor=The_Gun_Nut]For those of you in the know, H is a swordmaster and wizard adept.  Most likely of 13th Circle or higher in each (most likely 15th in each).  This makes him one of the most powerful beings to walk the planet.  Even great dragons would hesitate to do direct battle with him.[/quote]
Not anymore. The Discipline Patterns unraveled with the magic's decline, and there was not enough time, magic, nor metahuman influence to create new ones... Which wouldn't be identical anyway. :P
But he's powerfull, old, wise, and tricky. I bet Vestrial loves him. ;P

Quote
In Street magic, some spirits clearly behave like horrors, feeding themselves with metahuman emotions.
They migh be corrupt. Or from the metaplanes. Anyway, they are evil. But still, they're not Horrors (and i bet they fear them as they should). It has been told, that Horrors come from the darkest corners of the astral space. I think it was even hinted they come from Beyond metaplanes...
Horrors are not spirits. Nor in clasificaction, neither in game mechanics.

Quote
Also, there seem to be named Yama Kings, or Horrors, working their powers in Kowloon Walled City.
Chih-Shiang: judge of souls, makes residents of Kowloon Walled City believe they are there for bad karma from past lives.
The Ebony Queen Lam Vy: teaches her followers to hide from the Yama Kings, until they hide so well they become roaches.
Fu Mang, the Serpent of the Setting Sun: Promises wealth to those who bring him 44 hearts of family and friends, removed when the victim is alive.
It is speculated that between 10-20 of these Yama Kings reside in Kowloon Walled City. All this info is from Runner Havens.
These are probably unique Free Spirits, or metaplanar entities (spirit-like, or spirits). Not Horrors. They are not evil enough. If they'd be Horrors, there would be no Walled City, only a corrupted ruin plagued by Horror constructs...

Quote
Well... the Passions actively fought the Horrors during the last Scourge (some went mad over that, some died...), but if they are around this time to help metahumanity again is unknown.
Not Horrors, but 'Ristul' - the embodiment of corruption itself (as it's not really a Horror, it's something more, and worse). It's even worse than Horrors, as it has no stats in the book - only avatars and constructs. And those are badass, even for ED standards...

Quote
There are also "Fruits of the Horrors" scattered about.  These are pieces of major Horrors (god-like in power, comparable to great dragons or even stronger) that were slain by the Passions and their followers.  Eating one of those...well, do I need to go into details?  The problem is that the two "Fruits" look exactly alike.  Good luck with that...
Use Astral Sense. If it's corrupted, it's the latter. :P

I'd like to see Artificer break into the Shadowrun world. This Horror can really wreck a lot of damage especially on tech.
Oooh. He'd love all that tech. And most runners with 'warez would be powerless agains him, as he twists their cybered parts against them... :P

To start with, he wants to see how earthdawn magic differs from SR4 and /why/ it was so dangerous, so I'm already in the process of writing it up. I've got something already in place for magic items, ED style taken to SR4, but the parts I'm still fuzzy on is whose considered a name giver, and I know an ED adept are the players plus others who can use circle based magics.
Background Count, and corrupted areas, by either toxic shamans, and the kind, or great deal of negative emotions... Tha's just like Corruption in ED.

FAB III would definately help with the astral ones.  The only snag might be with the Horror that takes the form of a disease.  Microscopic razor goblins might have fun corrupting them.

Not kidding.  That Horror exists.
These. And they're minor (pun intended). And curable with healing magic, fortunatly.

That's why you kill them. Kill them with fire. Lots and lots of fire.
Some of them are fire. Or possess physical object (Crystal Entities - they can make your bones grow spikes that rip through the body and skin outwards...) that can be fire-resistant. Or just ignore flames altogether, because they're corrupted music. Or reside inside someones bones, or just hover over him in their astral form, using them as anchor...

The spell is called, imaginatively enough, Remove Horror Mark.  It is a 13th circle spell (again, roughly equivalent to requiring an initiate to get to grade 5 and then taking the spell separately as a one shot Named super specific spell).
Not really. That would be grade 9-10 i think. And it would need a powerfull ritual, as the ED spell is one...
So, removing your mark hastens the Scourge (by using powerfull magic). What do you do?

Honestly I don't see what the big deal about Horrors are. The Drop Bear Legions will just eat all their faces once they arrive.
No, the Corrupted Drop Bear Legions will do their bidding... :P
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (17:25:19/01-06-11)
horror? scarry enought? forget about pandas :)

http://www.balloontree.com/image.php?img=img/illustrations/red_hand (http://www.balloontree.com/image.php?img=img/illustrations/red_hand)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (18:49:05/01-06-11)
That design is outright stupid. :P
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Chrona on (23:12:13/01-06-11)
The First Ever Real Time Strategy Trading Card Game
wtf?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (09:00:19/01-07-11)
Where did that come from?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (11:05:10/01-07-11)
Poland :)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (11:16:28/01-07-11)
Srsly? What the frak (frak=tail-coat in polish?)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (11:17:57/01-07-11)
There is more to it:

http://www.balloontree.com/illustrations.php

but enought chitchat...

what I uderstand, if Im reading this forums correctly, is that Horrors are not Meant to come to main storyline and SR world anytime soon. Which means, as a GM I should use them as a distant threat, something dar creeping at the edge of the universe (something like Chtullu) but plots including horrors may be outside of my main game focus. Thats whati needed to know, If I should be prepared and prepare my players, for this Scourge eventuality. IMHO it is quite strange, that so much of ED wisdom survived till 6th world. If I remember correctly, there were much less knowledge and tomes unearthed for ED from previous cycles. May this be, that dragon startegy to use lesser races in the fight against enemy proves itself worthy?

Then again...
who was that Ristul you have been talking about, Kot? Where can I find more info?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (11:24:51/01-07-11)
Srsly? What the frak (frak=tail-coat in polish?)

I have a training sword (federschwert) from Gdansk :)
and my "prima victor" in fencing duel I won in Byczyna :)
CZ
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (11:40:10/01-07-11)
There is more to it:

http://www.balloontree.com/illustrations.php

but enought chitchat...

what I uderstand, if Im reading this forums correctly, is that Horrors are not Meant to come to main storyline and SR world anytime soon. Which means, as a GM I should use them as a distant threat, something dar creeping at the edge of the universe (something like Chtullu) but plots including horrors may be outside of my main game focus. Thats whati needed to know, If I should be prepared and prepare my players, for this Scourge eventuality. IMHO it is quite strange, that so much of ED wisdom survived till 6th world. If I remember correctly, there were much less knowledge and tomes unearthed for ED from previous cycles. May this be, that dragon startegy to use lesser races in the fight against enemy proves itself worthy?

Then again...
who was that Ristul you have been talking about, Kot? Where can I find more info?
Yes, the Horrors aren't expected for quite a while at least. Each of the Immortal powers (and probably Damien Knight) probably have some preparations starting early, since they take the long view.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (11:44:35/01-07-11)
Thanx. Makes my life much easier  ;D
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Digital_Viking on (12:54:12/01-07-11)
(and probably Damien Knight)
I'm guessing more from his relationship with The Big "D" - though you are right ,Knight plays the long game extremely well.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (13:03:20/01-07-11)
Aaah. That's Mr. Jakubowski's work. He's awesome. I've heard of him a lot once, as i live nearby. Though i still find the whole 'planet eater' silly. :P
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (13:09:00/01-07-11)
(and probably Damien Knight)
I'm guessing more from his relationship with The Big "D" - though you are right ,Knight plays the long game extremely well.
Yeah, his relationship with Big "D" was a contributing factor, as can be seen in the fact that he was prepared for the insects in Chicago (it didn't go entirely to plan, but he was decades ahead of other corps in preparations). I'm sure Dunkelzahn also passed along information on the Horrors to him to begin investing in defense against them.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Digital_Viking on (13:19:39/01-07-11)
Yeah, his relationship with Big "D" was a contributing factor, as can be seen in the fact that he was prepared for the insects in Chicago (it didn't go entirely to plan, but he was decades ahead of other corps in preparations). I'm sure Dunkelzahn also passed along information on the Horrors to him to begin investing in defense against them.
Which makes me wonder about the insect hybrids from..Threats 2? Unless of course it was kept so hush hush that Knight didn't hear about it. Which would be a major feat I'd think.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Frostriese on (00:03:31/01-08-11)
On that note, Ares seems to pump a lot of money into fighting the bugs. Now, Knight has reasons for that, but isnt such a money drain a huge competitive disadvantage for Ares?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (07:03:05/01-08-11)
Not after Chicago. They get most of their white PR as bug-fighters, i think. And testing their toys in the field is easier that way...
Now, i can imagine Ares giving out jobs for shadowrunners with 'there's a small hive, you can use this brand new batch of guns against them, have fun'.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Frostriese on (07:18:20/01-08-11)
Not after Chicago. They get most of their white PR as bug-fighters, i think. And testing their toys in the field is easier that way...
Now, i can imagine Ares giving out jobs for shadowrunners with 'there's a small hive, you can use this brand new batch of guns against them, have fun'.

Weapons testing is really overrated, it's not that expensive. And there are really cheaper ways to do it, too. I guess you have a point about PR, but the public doesn't even know just how much Ares invests into it, and besides these days it's of course Horizon who's the master of spin and good image; Ares is at best good middle field...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Morg on (03:57:56/01-09-11)
What about cyberzombies they go on some kind of meta planer quest to a place past the the deepest reaches to get back a twisted fragment of the person who was. could what they get back be the corruptions of the horrors but not horrors themselves. I have noticed that they have been becoming more mystically powerful ie the immunity to normal weapons. at least the ritual to make one would do well to build the background count
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (08:05:47/01-09-11)
Yes, but Horizon plays the 'we're not the bad guys' line. And Ares plays the 'we have guns, and we will use them to protect you' line. :)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (10:30:31/01-09-11)
And they - all on the Corporate Court - play the 'we know what's best for the world' line . . .
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: MK Ultra on (08:59:18/01-10-11)
Knight most likely knows about the bug-hybrids. This was the thing between him and Roger Soaring Owl (ex-Knight Errant boss) who recently left Ares. Big D´s advice might also have to do with Knight investing much into SpaceOps (in fact might have something to do with Kights choice to buy into Ares - the guns&space-corp - in the first place, but I wouildn´t go that far).

As for cost & benifit of bug-hunting - they did some good (and some bad) PR out of it and also a lot of UCAS (and presumably other) money. If you have a bug-problem, you will most likely turn to KE. But it is still a straign obviously, bug-hybrids are just one way they try to get the most out of it. That said, SR economy -as any rpg, though maybe better then most- was never compleatly straight. Plus it might not be that much extra-money, just a bit extra for thair regular security-services expenses.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (09:03:09/01-10-11)
He might be getting paid in good PR, which is harder to assign a value.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Nath on (09:23:47/01-10-11)
Big D´s advice might also have to do with Knight investing much into SpaceOps (in fact might have something to do with Kights choice to buy into Ares - the guns&space-corp - in the first place, but I wouildn´t go that far).
Quote
Blood in the boardroom, page 54
Knight led Ares to even greater heights of prosperity than it had previously seen. In addiion to the continued success of AresSpace, Knight made the Ares Arms division a primary moneymaker, created the enormously successful Knight Errant Security division and greatl expanded Ares international operations in the meantime.
Actually, Ares wasn't that big in the armament industry before. At least not in guns and ammo, since space assets like satellites sure use to suck a large part of defense budgets.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (09:45:49/01-10-11)
And don't forget Firewatch - that's a lot of surprisingly good PR.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Morg on (16:32:22/01-10-11)
Anyone have a list of all types of horrors from ED I could never get any up here in  Canuck land   :'(
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (16:54:20/01-10-11)
How much do you want?  Stats and all?  Or just the names and maybe a brief description?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Morg on (17:58:39/01-10-11)
How much do you want?  Stats and all?  Or just the names and maybe a brief description?

Names and a brief description would be great monkey
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (23:40:59/01-10-11)
I'm not sure we could list all the different types of Horrors, as they are numerous.  Some general categories, however, might be helpful.

First are Horror Constructs.  These are life forms either created, or altered, by a Horror to suit a specific need.  In most cases, this is a type of feeding (despair, terror, revulsion, etc.).  In some, they are simply the minions the Horror unleashes to achieve more physical goals.

Minor Horrors are minor not in power, but in goals.  These often can devastate a region, but are satisfied with such small locales as a single town or village or a specific region.  Crystal entities, for example, take up shop inside a building or structure, altering it to resemble a brilliant crystalline version of the locale and then terrorizing the locals.

Major or Named Horrors tend to not think so small, even if their power level is relatively low ("low" in this case being something a group of Journeyman adepts could defeat, or an experienced shadowrunning team).  These being think in terms of "the big picture" and use their powers to maximum advantage.  Nebis is a good example of this (NebisNebisNEBIS).  He is frail compared to other Named Horrors, but his goal is the corruption and destruction of the sanity of all peoples.  Nebis is an exception, though, as most major or Named Horrors have vast amounts of power, beyond the likes of even an experienced group of adepts or the best group of Prime Runners Shadowrun has to offer.  Even great dragons are prey to some of these beings.

Some Horrors exist solely on one plane or another: the astral or the physical.  The purely physical ones tend to be more brutish, but that is a generalization since there are several major Horrors that are purely physical that are as skilled in planning and manipulation as any dragon (or great, for that matter).  Nemesis, who created a special academy to train adepts and corrupt them to produce an army loyal to itself is an example of this "type."

Some Horrors exist soley on the astral plane.  These beings affect the world indirectly:  they can only mark and affect things on the physical plane through specific means.  They are, however, extraordinarily dangerous as ONLY adepts capable of either entering or affecting the astral can directly combat them.  This makes them virtually untouchable, as these beings are quite aware of their advantage and exploit it to the utmost.  Examples include Aazvaat Many Eyes, who curses victims through Horror Marked items and slowly drives them insane, or Chantrel's Horror (named after the Troubador Chantrel, with whom this Horror is most closely associated), who doesen't attack the victim it has marked, but it's friends and loved ones.  Chantrel's Horror uses those memories of loss and the horror of knowing that the victim brought death to her loved ones and turns the volume up to 11.

And lastly, for this post, are the Horrors that exist as both astral and physical entities.  These beings have two bodies, and killing one only inconveniences the Horror.  The body that survives can create, or birth or whatever, another version of itself into the other plane.  Their astral and physical forms don't even have to be near each other.  Thus killing one only ensure that the entity will be more cautious in dealing with its "killers" the next time.  Sometimes, it uses its "death" to mark the victims and torment them later, at its leisure.  NebisNebisNEBIS, mentioned earlier, is of this type and pulls this trick often.

Does that help, Morg?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Chrona on (23:44:10/01-10-11)
I, on the other hand, would love stats too
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Morg on (07:03:48/01-11-11)
Does that help, Morg?

Yes it has is there a more comprehensive list of named horrors?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (08:58:50/01-11-11)
In the Horrors sourcebook for Earthdawn. Or in Third Edition's Gamemaster's Companion.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Morg on (09:05:30/01-11-11)
In the Horrors sourcebook for Earthdawn. Or in Third Edition's Gamemaster's Companion.

I have nether Kot, any suggestions as to where I may find a link of some kind?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Lansdren on (09:14:21/01-11-11)
any stats you get from earthdawn will proberbly not be greatly usefull in shadowrun. Whilst there is shared history and links between the two they are however seperate in very real terms of mechanics.


*linited reading of Earthdawn has given this impression but as with all things you can muddle through
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (09:35:14/01-11-11)
Knowledge of the two systems can let you kludge something together but, in general, yes, the systems are quite different and making them work requires a lot of effort.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Morg on (09:52:02/01-11-11)
Knowledge of the two systems can let you kludge something together but, in general, yes, the systems are quite different and making them work requires a lot of effort.

My players ask me to  kludge something together twice a game session so I am use to it.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (10:17:27/01-11-11)
Yeah, ShadowRun and EarthDawn are pretty much incompatible mechanics wise.  You can force them to work together but it's a lot of work with a lot of guessing, shrugs, and just-so shoe-horning.

Anyway, I can give some brief descriptions working from memory.

For Horror constructs there are:
-Ghouls
Sort of like ShadowRun's ghouls only not blind and poisonous.
-Jehuthras
Seven-foot-long spider monsters with human-like faces.
-Cadaver Men
Basically insane, intelligent zombies that fly into a psychotic murder rage when wounded or badly injured.
-Qural'lotectica
Basically a transparent sack with hook tipped tentacles that hang from trees, arches, and cave ceilings and paralyze people then drain out their blood.
-Black Mantises
Ten-foot-long mantis-like monsters with eight legs.
-Bone Shamblers
Basically animated piles of bones, weapons, and random other crap that stab people to death with their rusty arm spikes and can reform if killed.
-Spectral Dancer
Undead people the Horrors have rendered insane by removing their ability to communicate in any meaningful way.  They flit in and out of humanity trying to communicate with others and viciously attack those that ignore them.
-Shilagrue Horror
An aquatic sheet-like monster that wraps itself around victims, takes control of them, and makes them attack those they love.
-Plagues
Thin, sickly-looking humanoids covered in boils that spread an incredibly virulent and deadly disease simply through their presence.  The only way to cure the disease is to kill the Plague that started its spread.

Some minor Horrors are:
-Wormskulls
Humanoid, but with heads (and sometimes hands and other parts) that look like piles of writhing worms and bodies partially made out of armor.  They can tear your skin off and rotate it around your body, transfer damage done to them to others, terrify people, and seem to thrive on making undead.
-Bloatforms
They look like swollen, floating slugs, corpses, or jellyfish.  They typically hide and lie in wait and use their powers to manipulate people in turning on each other and destroying themselves.
-Kreescra
Short and skinny with malformed bones and joints and faces that look like they're sliding off their skulls.  The follow a victim around and sneak up on him while sleeping to put their hands on their heads.  Doing so allows them to give the person horrific nightmares which prevent him from healing and eventually kill him.
-Mindslugs
Six-inch-long slug-like Horrors with numerous hook-covered tentacles that burrow into people's heads while they sleep and feed on the pain they cause by damaging the person's skull and brain.
-Wingflayers
Flying clouds of tiny, metallic slivers that seemingly have no goal other than shredding people into piles of raw, unidentafiable meat and bone.
-Slipshades
Shadowy Horrors that can become two-dimensional and climb up walls and slip under doors.  They aren't terrible aggressive for Horrors, don't seek out victims, and mostly seem to prefer to be left alone.  They will, however, tear you apart if you stumble across them.
-Despairthought
They look like giant white maggots covered with child-sized arms, with a large tooth-filled mouth.  They roam through astral space looking for week-willed and easily frightened people which they threaten into placing a special mark on a loved one.  Once marked, the Horror causes the person to painfully and horribly shriek and growl instead of speak, can make him freeze with despair, and can even force him to commit suicide.  The Horrors' name sort of says it all.

Some Major Horrors:
-Joie
Joie wanders from town to town taking the guise of a lost child, a minstrel, or the like and then sets itself up in the town.  At first it does nothing, or even helps the people, making sure to watch them closely.  Eventually it begins to warp their emotions, changing hate into love, pain into elation, rage into happiness, and so on.  First it starts small, maybe one or two people with minor changes, but it quickly starts warping the entire town.  It quickly turns it into a madhouse with people cutting their own body parts off, leaping off roofs, stabbing each other, and loving every minute of it.  Eventually it gets bored and either leaves or kills everyone and then leaves.
-Aazvhat Many-Eyes
Aazvhat only exists on the astral plane where it looks like a roiling mass of wet, blinking eyes.  It seems to want to drive people insane one person at a time.  It does this my marking various objects.  When people come near them, it causes an eye to appear on it just long enough for the person to notice.  It then begins to corrupt reality for that person, causing eyes to appear on all sorts of objects: shields, mirrors, mugs, anything.  It starts out with minor acts just in the corner of the person's eye, but eventually starts making it look like eyes are peering the the person from everything.  It never speaks either, enjoying the terror of it's silence.
-The Tempter
The Tempter is a remarkably honest Horror.  More or less.  It looks like a tiny bur or the like and it frequently sticks in someone's clothing.  It whispers to them, telling them what it is and that it will offer them help, but only if they want it.  And it does.  When the victim is in need it will offer help and aid in the form of mystical power it lends to them.  If they refuse its aid, it will sulk, but say it understands.  It is very patient.  It will do nothing without the person's permission.  Of course, once the victim accepts it becomes easier for the Tempter to worm its way into his mind, the temptation to accept its help becomes greater, and it begins to offer its help for ever more minor things.  Through all this it is slowly corrupting the victim and turning him into a Horror construct.  It revels in corrupting the most stalwart and upright of people and gets the greatest joy from helping people corrupt their own ideals and destroy themselves.

Sorry, that got kind of long.  I can give more, but I wanted to cut this one post short.

EDIT
Fixed some typos and stuff.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Morg on (11:17:31/01-11-11)
TY Monkey that Gives me some ammunition for my plots with in plots within enigmas
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (12:43:07/01-11-11)
just remember... the world of Shadowrun is too far away to be Scourged....for at least centuries...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (12:46:52/01-11-11)
No prob, Morg.  But as Sichr said, the magic level in ShadowRun is way, way too low for all but the weakest Horrors to squeeze their way through.  And even weak ones squeezing through is unlikely without help from a powerful magician, vile ritual, an artifact, or the like.  But still, it would be fun.  And given the way magic is still rather mysterious and only vaguely understood in ShadowRun, one can always just say, "Screw it.  Horrors come through because I say so."  Then let the terror begin!

And so you know, weak ones would be things like kreescra, mindslugs, and possibly a despairthought.

EDIT
Added and fixed some stuff.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Morg on (13:05:34/01-11-11)
They don't have to be a horror but could be corrupted by one, besides strange things can happen to metaplaner researchers
and my PCs like their metaquests. They always try to take everyone with them, one time they even tried to convince a free spirit to get the unawakened PCs to come along (The free spirit said it was a bad idea for the uninitiated *GM Clue Bat included*).
I just like having more then 3 layers to my plots. I run Paranoia as well so take what you will from that.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (13:12:59/01-11-11)
Horror corruption's probably the best route and there are a lot of ways to work it in.  Like the idea of running into a horror on a metaplanar quest.  I like that.  And to think.  People think the Hive is a bad place.  Can you imagine where a Horror would drag you to?  A botched metaplanar quest where something pried its way into his head or even comes back with him could really screw with the players.  Heh heh.

Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Morg on (13:28:29/01-11-11)
any know weather or not a horror mark can be laid on a magicians astral form? is there an interesting named one that could do it?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (13:41:53/01-11-11)
Taint is the first one that comes to mind.  It slowly, over time corrupts a magician or adept's use of magic until it has Horror marked the poor schlub.  It then continues to warp and corrupt it, frequently turning it on the caster or making it work unpredictably.  The thing is very good at hiding in astral space and is very, very subtle in how it works.

But I'm pretty sure any Horror that can Horror mark can do it to someone's astral form.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (14:52:12/01-11-11)
What about some Horror constructs...wuld it be possible to find some in some digsite? Should it work without the horror present?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (15:10:19/01-11-11)
So far as I'm aware, Horrors don't really maintain Horror constructs like a mage has to maintain a spell.  They more infuse them with magic making them self-sustaining.  They even give them a lose amount of free will.  (Slaves to the Horror they still be.)  Horrors would frequently create constructs then simply turn them lose to rampage, kill, and terrorize on their own.  I suppose you can look at Horror constructs as more horribly deformed, twisted, raped, and maddened beings than magic built, remote controlled puppets.  Though even in the former they are still slaved to the Horror.

I suppose you could, theoretically, dig up an ancient Horror construct.  Whether it would still be "alive" or not is another matter.  I suppose it boils down to whether you think the long period of almost nonexistent magic would have broken down the magics sustaining it and thus killed it.  Or whether it merely "deactivated" it and put in a torpor like state leaving it ready to "activate" once the magic level got high enough.  Personally, I like the suspended animation idea.

Either way, I think only undead ones like cadaver men, ghouls, and bone shamblers could survive that long buried in the earth.  And even then, they'd probably be pretty damn messed up after five thousand years in the dirt.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (15:15:10/01-11-11)
There are other ways, as for example Verjigorm's cocooned pets are definitely dragon-based Horror constructs.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (15:21:36/01-11-11)
That's a little to high end on the power scale for most (or rather, all) shadowrunners.  I can see some of the corrupted stone men surviving the down cycle.  They look like fancy statues, but in truth they are magical creations (like D&D stone golems) that some Horrors corrupted and imbued with a malign intelligence in order to stave off boredom (long story).

I can see a spectral dancer, being trapped in some sort of vessel for the downcycle, popping up, as well.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (02:26:26/01-12-11)
What about Imps? Horoi-related or not?

And about Horror constructs:  could such function as an SR adept?  Would it need infusions of anything to stay functional?  I have a mini-campaign outline in progress (which I may or may not submit to CGL) which features a Horror-construct-as-adept as cult/small unit leader . . . additional refinement needed and welcome.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Grinder on (05:20:05/01-12-11)
Anyone have a list of all types of horrors from ED I could never get any up here in  Canuck land   :'(

Buy the fucking PDFs of the Earthdawn 3rd Edition and you'll be fine.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (07:28:44/01-12-11)
To be honest, putting Horrors in a game would be too much. Horror influences, legends, stuff like that - yeah, that's fine for a Harry Angel themed game.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (11:09:30/01-12-11)
It's pretty much jumping the gun anyway, at least with the Horrors themselves.  Someone like Darke/Oscuro or the Cult of Tezcatlipoca is probably as far along that track as is necessary to go.

With that in mind I really hope that another jump forward is NOT in the works.  IMHO, it would pretty much kill SR as a playable enjoyable sandbox.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: MK Ultra on (12:13:48/01-12-11)
I love that movie Angel Heart :)

Pretty much agree with Longshot23, though this list of descriptions gives good idears for these ppls MO. Dispair reminded me pretty much of Mr. Darks writeup in the original Treats book. The tempter sounds a lot like s.th. I could imagin happened to Juan Azcapotzalco. Also good stuff to design new shadow spirits, or give the existing ones some color. Horror constructs (thought few and far between) on the metaplanes also sound like a nice thing. Some quests may even involve some kind of image of one horror or another, though i would hasitate to have it be the genuin thing so close to the physical world yet.

If some actual horror would be featured as a single slip through, I´d rather put s.th. like the tempter - maybe offering help during metaplanar quests. or brife and temporary break-throughs, like one being abled to reach through at some major power site during some special astrological constalation or some-such (probably with help from some ritual group), long enough, to create a weak construct, that can operate in that region for a limited time.

ED level Horror-investation is definitly too much for SR ...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (13:57:17/01-12-11)
What about Imps? Horoi-related or not?
I don't know.  I don't know anything about imps.

Quote
And about Horror constructs:  could such function as an SR adept?  Would it need infusions of anything to stay functional?  I have a mini-campaign outline in progress (which I may or may not submit to CGL) which features a Horror-construct-as-adept as cult/small unit leader . . . additional refinement needed and welcome.
You could probably make a construct function as an adept.  Especially ghouls and cadaver men.  ED ghouls would be almost identical to SR ghouls, only as I said no blindness and they're poisonous.  The others would probably work best as creature.  Though I'm not quite sure how I'd handle a spectral dancer, though those wouldn't work as cult leaders anyway so it's moot.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (14:03:20/01-12-11)
ED Ghouls don't have to eat flesh. They just like it. :)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (14:09:42/01-12-11)
Really?  I could have swore they had to eat it.  I thought cadaver men were the ones that didn't have to but did anyway.  Either way, still gross.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (14:21:10/01-12-11)
There's a Horror power that can instil life into a victim.  They look and smell slightly decayed, but otherwise function at full power.  Better, since they can tap into the Horror's magic to heal themselves.  In ED terms they get an unlimited number of Recovery tests per day that they can use as a standard action, without the waiting time requirement (normally, an hour between tests).  In SR terms they would have regeneration that lets them heal from anything, up to and including drain (yes, it's that butch).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (19:28:42/01-12-11)
Quote
To sustain themselves, ghouls must eat the vital organs of the living
or recently dead. They live along trade routes where they ambush
passing travelers, in cemeteries where they feed on the newly dead,
or in city sewers, crawling out at night to hunt their victims.
So, either i remembered it wrong, or they changed that in Third Edition.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Ultra Violet on (08:14:59/01-13-11)
In the old ED Vampires were no Horrors, they were only Horror Constructs... but the idea that a Vampire from ED has survived to SR is a tempting thing...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (09:00:21/01-13-11)
There were no Vampires in ED. Only one mention in the 1st edition Companion. Besides that - nothing.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Ultra Violet on (09:07:30/01-13-11)
See Barsaive in Chaos  ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (10:44:07/01-13-11)
The bottom line seems to be that the Horrors - even Verjigorm - could not create life, only simulacrums.  They could muck up and around with practically anything that was alive though, and even then apparently worked through proxies.

Yes/No?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (11:22:00/01-13-11)
See Barsaive in Chaos  ;)
Are you kidding me? That crap is awful. Now way. I'm not touching it even with a 10 feet pole infused with the Essence of Wood. Second edition books don't exist.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (09:24:11/01-14-11)
The 2nd Ed. books do leave a lot to be desired.

Horrors, could, in fact, create life forms, LS22.  It was (far) easier to alter life forms, but the most powerful could create some whole cloth.  Those, thankfully, were very, very rare.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (10:34:12/01-14-11)
The 2nd Ed. books do leave a lot to be desired.

Horrors, could, in fact, create life forms, LS22.  It was (far) easier to alter life forms, but the most powerful could create some whole cloth.  Those, thankfully, were very, very rare.

Yee-ouch.  I didn't know that.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (11:40:47/01-14-11)
Well, they took pride in warping existing beings, like Manticores, or Dragons even (Verjigorm again).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (12:03:02/01-14-11)
Remember, Horrors (the intelligent ones) feed off of the negative emotions their actions and creations generate in victims.  Since altering an existing person likely will produce stronger emotions in the people who knew that person, then it is much more cost effective to just alter one.

However, when a Horror has a specific need, the really powerful ones will create a life form to suit that need.  The term "Horror construct" applies to both altered and fabricated forms.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dead Monky on (19:27:21/01-14-11)
Quote
To sustain themselves, ghouls must eat the vital organs of the living
or recently dead. They live along trade routes where they ambush
passing travelers, in cemeteries where they feed on the newly dead,
or in city sewers, crawling out at night to hunt their victims.
So, either i remembered it wrong, or they changed that in Third Edition.
Either you just proved my point, or I was lumping flesh in with organs.  I'm not really sure that it matters either way.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (19:30:45/01-14-11)
The former. ED ghouls have to eat flesh, but not only Namegivers.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (15:52:43/02-06-11)
Speaking of the Unmentionable Things from Beyond...

This is the first of a Grimore of Nasties for the GM to throw at the players to make the go WTH? Others will be coming soon. Feedback is appreciated

Infectors (can only be summoned in Toxic Aspected domains)

There have been various reports of unknown creatures near toxic zones that defy conventional description and resemble a somewhat semis table version of a shambler, but are seemingly a mass of archanid-like legs (number varies) around a central core consisting of mouths with little more than multiple rows of needle sharp teeth on a body with vaguely insectoid eyes. The few that have seen the creature state that simply looking at it has caused them to run in fear. A notable mention was that in each instance the survivor of sighting the creature is that they were with others, only to lose most of the group they were with escaping.

The truth of the matter on the Infector is far more dangerous than a spirit twisted by the environment. It is a creature from the Deep Metaplanes that had been originally constructed by Things That Must Not Be, but over time evolved the ability to create more of themselves by infecting hosts with a bite. They originally came across the Deep planes via a metaphysical bridge into the deep planes unwittingly created by the Great Ghost Dance. While the bridge was eventually destroyed by the Redoubtable Harlequin and a group of shadowrunners , a Black Magician following the Toxic path escaped with several of the creatures in tow for his own uses. While he was eventually infected and killed by the creatures, he unfortunately learned of their original spirit formula after some experimentation was able to summon more of them using unwilling subjects.

That was sometime ago.

With the rise of the ambient mana levels after 2061, the creatures we able to stay in the relative low mana environment and have started to spread in Seattle and the near astral, polluting the place with their presence and migrating of other toxic zones to feed of various flavors of meta-humanity's pain and spread.

Toxic Crawler Spirit (Spirit of Corruption)

B   A   R   S   C   I   L   W   Edg   Ess   M   Init    IP
F+4 F+2   F+4   F+6   F   F   F   F+2   F   F   F   (Fx2)+3   3
Astral Init/IP: Fx2, 3
Movement: 14/70 (leaping/running)
Armor (B/I): 8/10

Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Athletics, Perception, Stealth, Unarmed Combat

Powers: Armor, Accident, Astral Form, Concealment, Confusion, Fear, Infection, Materialization, Noxious Breath, Movement, Search

The Infection Ability is a dangerous and ultimately fatal thing for the target in question. If successfully infected, the Crawler spirit infection takes over the target in question in Magic + Essence in hours, reshaping their body in a gruesome metamorphosis into a crawler of F = Targets essence. Standard saves (Body+ Willpower) using Edge can be used.

Feed back is welcome on this.....thing

Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (15:59:45/02-06-11)
Too many powers. No optional power lists. And there's enough toxic spirit types, I think. toxic spirits=/=Horrors. They're just a type of spirits, even if they're corrupted by pollution. And that pollution is natural, man-made, not a Horror taint...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (16:06:31/02-06-11)
While quite true that there are a lot of Toxic spirits, this one was only called Toxic in that it's what people in 2070 would call it....not realizing that it is actually a Avatar of Corruption (read: Horror Construct). the truth is much much worse. and this thing is meant to be and unholy terror and scare the crap out of the players, so if it looks really powerful that was the point.

And a bit of a Break down of the run for the runners

They had after doing a lot of leg work tracking a pair of low end runners who had been stalking a charge of the Pixie player had what is called a Genetic Mirror Twin (same DNA culture, but flipped sex. I've incorporated the idea from reading over several cultures putting mystical importance one such twins in various magery) that had been stolen from the local hospital at birth.

After doing some physical and mystical leg work, made slightly easier that Mirror Twins have VERY faint astral link between them that the pixie managed to spot, they tracked the runners to a Salvation Army Thrift Store in in Tacoma (players were getting nervous as they were thinking bugs. I let that go as it played as a lovely red herring). They sent in James, the Elven Face man (Social Adept) to look the place over while a Free Spirit NPC they've developed good relations with. The store front was a typical thrift store for the area and the Social adapt made good enough rolls that he didn't think there was anything wrong with the staffers, but he discovered the first version of mystical spam ever (a Watcher Spirit told to bug any mystic coming in the door to check out the 'fetishes' for sale) (small amount of Crystal clacker stuff).

The Free Spirit discovered after doing some ground work that the entire basement complex below the building was surrounded by Astral Vines and some fairly hefty, yet subtle wards and could not sneak in from below (tho it did mention a underground access that ran below the building). That and it felt vaguely disturbed about what was down below, not entirely certain what was down there. After a bit of research and discussion, the players found out it was part of the older Sea-Tac Underground Subway that had been closed off and sealed (with concrete). Given land in Seattle is at a premium, this sent up a bit of a flag, and the group rigger snuck into a construction site that was nearby, hacked the control protocols for several construction drones and had one drill down towards the far end of the tunnel access then let in her cadre of recon drones. The first thing that was noted that there was no noises in the tunnels. At All. Not rats, bugs or anything except the sound of dripping water. Given the Devil rat population in Seattle alone, this gave the players pause for thought as the only relative noise was the occasional hum from the drones. The drones came across what appear to be a homeless (or possible Ghul) encampment, in a half standing position, food long gone to mold, but no bodies or signs of bones. Dark smears were here and there, but everything else looked okay.

Then the drones started going off line. The first one was at the tail end of the drone chain. Some vague impression of camera movement before a loud crunching noise ensured and the unit went black. The player had the drones get into a security wheel but couldn't see anything, but heard....something move off in the tunnels somewhere.

After a few moments, the player sent a sacrficial drone to investigate the noise. All it found was a shredded drone that while obviously the same one had gone to rust and appear partly melted. Checking all freqs rendered nothing. And another drone when offline from the security wheel (the thing was toying with them). The caught a vague glimpse of it's form as it went around a corner, but nothing to trying go off of. So the mage suggested they have the drones run down the mage-goggle line and they provide whatever it was with live bait so they could get a better look at it. The Samurai went to go find a Devil rat and came back with one in relative short order (learning from the locals in Lagos was useful), and so they had it taken down by one of the drones and sealed in while the mage watched on the other end.

The Rat ran around in panic as it obviously could sense something that the drones couldn't. When it tried running towards a turn off is when it manifested fully, And I made the player roll against it's Fear Power....to which he blew royally, and will have nightmares about for some time. But the players found out that it wasn't Insect Spirits but something far far worse down below.

So they got an assault plan together and called in what marks they had, with the samurai who had been in the Biz a while making discrete calls to Ares (he's on good Terms with them) to call in Team 1, Ares showboat strike team they use for such Reality shows like Bug Hunter, with theirs called "Team One: the Line", and generally used to swat big nasty threats in a very public way about the threat down below. While Team One would deal with the mess in the tunnels and KE would seal the area off, The runners planned to assault the SA place and charge into the Astral Vine protected sub-basement, after making sure the the civvies got out.

After the evac, they rushed the subbasement door, which the samurai and helpers made short work of, the Mage and the groups technomancer got a taste of Corrupted Astral and Netspace as they checked the place over ( the mage fighting against a Background count of 2, and the Technomancer Dealing with a Dissonance Well.

The combat was fast and furious with Cultists hopped on K-10 came at the players and the Local mage Rushing the Job on Summoning a Great Form Spirit version of an Infector.

The Fight was a very nasty door to door sort of operation, with the sams and other combat types dealing with the cultists. After a bit of work on the part of the groups techno and other decker buddies he called in favors from they managed to dig into the wireless signal of the place and founda floor map and discovered it resembled a patient care ward like in a hospital with small isolation cells lining about 1/2 the floor space.....a barracks style set up for the cultists, a room set aside under a double layer of astral vines, several other styles of rooms and a large room of undetermined function. Digging past the dissonance, the decker could only get distorted whimpers from various subjects, mutterings of 'kill me' and badly garbled pictures, as well as badly corrupted data records. After a lot of work he found out that the cult was a left over of the Winternight movement from back in the day.

At this point the players got the horrible realization that the place was an incubation chamber for something truly horrible and the gloves came off the group which are normally quite restrained on the lethal stuff (typically use stick and shock). They made their way through the cultists, inch by bloody inch, but had finally ran into the Cult leader (who had been busy elsewhere prepping a summoning of a Great Form) version of an Infector. The players had hired on some fellow runners, a rather odd cadre of physads called the Desolation Angels (yes, those nice ladies) to pick up the slack on gun-bunnies, and one of them charged the enemy mage. The mage seemed to take this in stride and grappled the DA, ripping away her flesh covering and exposing the humanoid manitd beneath before blowing her to hell with his Predator Pistol ( he made a very good shot).

The mage player could feel the reek of whatever this guy was and put everything into a manabolt spell, saying screw the normal caution he took on drain rolls, which turned out to be good for the party, and he managed to get by the mages impressive defenses. The enemy mage, blowing his int check, he pulled a spell he had on contigency and began using the essence of his cultists to fuel the summoning to bring the Great Infector across. Sadly he blew his check to control the thing and it ate him. However due to a lapse in thought on his part ( he had been shot and take a bit of spell damage), he had forgotten that the area was sealed in Astral Vines and it was too big to get out of the complex. Severely angered, it began to accelerate the mutation of it's....children.

The Pixie and the less combat oriented of the group had hunted room to room and finally found the kidnapped twin in his room with several books and toys that didn't indicate anything out of the ordinary.....if you didn't account for the magical formula on the wall in some language they didn't recognize and several books written in the same language. The child didn't seem very perturbed by the sounds of violence outside or the wailing, which disturbed the players. After a bit of evaluation, The Face and one of the magic types determined the boy was brought up in the cults worldview, but was also still a child and simply didn't know any better, as well as only spoke proper spetheriel (no contractions or slang at all), as well as seemed to have a grasp of the magic a formula on the wall. Seeing that he had no riders on him and a small teddy bear, which had a untainted guardian spirit bound to it, the grabbed him, several of his books on interest, and bugged out while the others laid down the fire power.

As it turns out the situation was far worse than they had guessed. Down in the sewers, Team One had been overrun buy a plethoria of the beasties (a lot of sacrfices had been dropped down there over the years and any local indigents made for decent meals when the things manifested from thier local astral realm) and KE troopers had called in the Plex Guard to try to contain the breakout, but it was a scene out of lovecraft as a the things began manifesting above ground and crawling out of the woodwork, turning the area into something similar to Chicago when the bugs broke out, but far more horrific as the creatures seemed to go out of their way to cause pain and misery.

Players went through most of their ammo and had to duck and cover as corporate and UCAS forces liberally paved buildings in the area and set up containment to scan for creatures or 'infestation' like they had with the Bugs. Given the situation, KE ignored the fact they were armed with weapons of dubious legality and merely asked them very pointed questions about the Things, what they knew about them, and more importantly, what seemed to slow the things down. The Players defintiely have a KE record at this point, but considering they we actually helpful with the information they gave, unless they do something foolish, KE is going to put them on low priority for finding.

The area in still a mess and the sound of Gunships flying over Tacoma is fairly common at this point.

The players declared the whole situation and absolute nightmare. Which is what I was aiming for, so I guess I did my job
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (04:58:35/02-07-11)
It's a bit too early for Horror constructs. According to the late Dunkelzahn, about two thousand years too early.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: SpiderWord on (05:31:29/02-07-11)
It's a bit too early for Horror constructs. According to the late Dunkelzahn, about two thousand years too early.

Maybe he was wrong... DUM DUM DUM.

Jokes apart an early Horror entrance would be quite unexpected and funny to rp. Of course It would require a lot of planning on the possible plot.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (17:06:37/02-07-11)
And in Halequins back there was a passing mention of Mr. Darke getting away with a few of the small crawler beasties the players met in the first part of the game. I simply adapted the idea and ran with it, with Mr Darke tweaking the spirit fomula over the last decade or so into something much much nastier......thus the Infector.

I had been working on these things for a while and ran the adventure as deliberately vague and ramped up the horror tropes as much as I could. it worked out for the best and the players enjoyed it
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Ultra Violet on (01:20:50/02-08-11)
If Señor Oscuro is alive Harlequin is on his trace.
But in my opinion there are enough strange magical beings out since the Comet, so the possibility that a couple of this new visitors are actually demons can't be denied. And I said it before some beings, were called in the past "horrors" or "demons", are now in the modern world categorized as paranormal animals or paranatural diseases.

And there are some open stories in the books especially in Big D's will, i.e. that thing with the vaccination for newborns...
To the corporations and governments of the world, I leave the formula for an infant vaccination that should be administered to all children born after 31 October 2060.
What did Big D wanted to prevent? And did it happened like he wanted? Since not all people live their life inside the corporate or goverment controlled society... Maybe a new form of invasion another kind of spirit? Thinking about Shedims or Imps and such...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (01:34:31/02-08-11)
If Señor Oscuro is alive Harlequin is on his trace.
But in my opinion there are enough strange magical beings out since the Comet, so the possibility that a couple of this new visitors are actually demons can't be denied. And I said it before some beings, were called in the past "horrors" or "demons", are now in the modern world categorized as paranormal animals or paranatural diseases.

And there are some open stories in the books especially in Big D's will, i.e. that thing with the vaccination for newborns...
To the corporations and governments of the world, I leave the formula for an infant vaccination that should be administered to all children born after 31 October 2060.
What did Big D wanted to prevent? And did it happened like he wanted? Since not all people live their life inside the corporate or goverment controlled society... Maybe a new form of invasion another kind of spirit? Thinking about Shedims or Imps and such...

Somewhere in the mass of SR material is the opinion that this vaccination allowed Drakes - a bit odd considering Scale (of S-K infamy) has been running around for years, and the Threats 2 listing of Dealing with Dragons was about a particular Drake's first transformation.  But I have to admit that I really don't know.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: larskrygan on (03:03:22/02-08-11)

And there are some open stories in the books especially in Big D's will, i.e. that thing with the vaccination for newborns...
To the corporations and governments of the world, I leave the formula for an infant vaccination that should be administered to all children born after 31 October 2060.
What did Big D wanted to prevent? And did it happened like he wanted? Since not all people live their life inside the corporate or goverment controlled society... Maybe a new form of invasion another kind of spirit? Thinking about Shedims or Imps and such...
[/quote]

spoiler spoiler


this issue was resolved in a novel : the forever drug by lisa smedman. apparently, the vaccine is meant to activate the longevity genome in all metahumanity, they would live forever unless killed via the usual methods...

the vaccination plan failed due to a run resulting int the destruction of the factory/ doctors/ loss of data...  nothing was left aside.
lofwyr was said to be behind it ....

sorry for the

Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (19:27:17/02-15-11)
One thinks this might be suitable for XCOM: Horror Defense.
Hapless, underarmed, underinformed, and underfunded agency created to defend the world from the mysterious threat of the Horrors, somehow forced to secure most of their funding by recovering and researching artifacts and new technology to sell (probably back to the megacorporation).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (22:23:40/02-15-11)
*bump*

Just to bring this topic back to root heading....

Does nobody think Shadowrun is scary enough without Horror influences from the deep metaplanes :o ??? :'(?

I'll be happy, very happy, SUPERLATIVELY happy if my runners, team, mentors and everybody I ever meet in the SR universe NEVER have to deal with these things...

MY ED characters will NEVER recover from their Horror encounters, and I'd prefer for those Lovecraftian terrors to remain buried in the 4th Age, thank-you very much....
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (23:42:32/02-15-11)
Too tired to remember exactly what, but something seemed strange or funny about Horrors arriving and magic increasing...maybe something about wondering about the strength/threat - mana correlation charts, comparing the curves of Humans and Horrors (sounds like a D&D knockoff).  Heh, if the mama levels rise enough, do we start playing Exalted?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (23:47:08/02-15-11)
Heh, if the mama levels rise enough, do we start playing Exalted?
Can you imagine how pissed off all those Immortal elves would be if some human achieved their equivalent Path of Kings process in 50 years with a higher mana level?

There would be some VERY pissed off Princes in the Tir  :o
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (06:45:09/02-16-11)
Not really. The mana level still has a long way to to to make that possible.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (07:46:31/02-16-11)
Not really. The mana level still has a long way to to to make that possible.
Hence the word ...'...if...'  :P
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (09:00:14/02-16-11)
Too tired to remember exactly what, but something seemed strange or funny about Horrors arriving and magic increasing...maybe something about wondering about the strength/threat - mana correlation charts, comparing the curves of Humans and Horrors (sounds like a D&D knockoff).  Heh, if the mama levels rise enough, do we start playing Exalted?
I'm sure you meant "mana."  ;D

IMO, Earthdawn is a better game than Exalted.  Don't get me wrong, Exalted is ridiculous amounts of fun to play, it's even some fun to run.  It's so over-the-top fun that one can't help but be captivated by it.

But Earthdawn did the high-magic-prehistory thing first and better.  Sure the core game system is heavy on crunch (but then, so is Exalted when you add in all the books for different Exalts), but the core ideals are very similar to Shadowrun.  There are large forces working in the background, but the players can affect those forces, even if it is only a small impact.  The difference between SR and ED is the high mana level.

Adepts in the 4th world can get insanely powerful, even to epic, change the face of the world powerful.  But they start at roughly the same strength as mundanes.  it's only the higher Circles that allow adepts to run roughshod over mundanes.  This power also lets them take down, or have a chance at taking down, many of the Horrors that are present in the world.

But no one comes along and tells them "it's your destiny" and grants them power, or some crap like that.  En Exalted, the character is unique and potent because someone else said so, not because of anything on the character's part.  In ED, when the character gets powerful and earth-shaking, it's because THEY became that way.  "I am King by my own hand!"

That's why I prefer ED.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (09:39:10/02-16-11)
Yeah, I meant mana, mamajama.  Typing on a Droid is rough; autocorrect is overzealous, and pressing new line tends to crash the browser.  I've only played Exalted once, and I haven't played Earthdawn; I mean to, but I kinda spent my book budget on Shadowrun already.  I can see what you mean, but don't you have to be a hero to get Exalted, and don't you have to be born an Adept?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (09:49:51/02-16-11)

And there are some open stories in the books especially in Big D's will, i.e. that thing with the vaccination for newborns...
To the corporations and governments of the world, I leave the formula for an infant vaccination that should be administered to all children born after 31 October 2060.
What did Big D wanted to prevent? And did it happened like he wanted? Since not all people live their life inside the corporate or goverment controlled society... Maybe a new form of invasion another kind of spirit? Thinking about Shedims or Imps and such...

spoiler spoiler


this issue was resolved in a novel : the forever drug by lisa smedman. apparently, the vaccine is meant to activate the longevity genome in all metahumanity, they would live forever unless killed via the usual methods...

the vaccination plan failed due to a run resulting int the destruction of the factory/ doctors/ loss of data...  nothing was left aside.
lofwyr was said to be behind it ....

sorry for the

Seems like shit to me:
To "governments and corporations": Means that there is much more that just one lab or copy of data. Its hard to believe that anyone is abble to run full world scale operation to eradicate this knowledge...even in times, when anyone is able to catch Pax etc.
Lowfyr should have it on memory crystal, although he wouldn share it with metahumanity, I suppose, I hope that this statement ont be part of official setting and would bring some surprise in the future...
Other argument:
Even Big D would hardly be pleased by world full of almost immortal metahumans plundering resources and keeping the nativity levels high...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (10:28:40/02-16-11)
Yeah, I meant mana, mamajama.  Typing on a Droid is rough; autocorrect is overzealous, and pressing new line tends to crash the browser.  I've only played Exalted once, and I haven't played Earthdawn; I mean to, but I kinda spent my book budget on Shadowrun already.  I can see what you mean, but don't you have to be a hero to get Exalted, and don't you have to be born an Adept?
In Exalted, there is a god of Exaltation.  While the gods have standards as to their choices, those standards apply to many people.  So, basically, the god has to like you enough to exalt you.

In the 4th world (Earthdawn), the mana level is so high that fully 5% of the population are adepts (and here, spellcasters are included in the title "adept").  Many, many more people are what are called "half-magic" adepts.  Meaning that they have some magical ability, but it is limited and specific (i.e. you may know some farming magic, or some carpenter magic).  This isn't just those born with the gift, the different adepts are called Disciplines because of the intense mental focus required to harness their abilities.  Basically, if you focus on the correct mental framework, you can tie the core ideal of the Discipline to yourself to become a member of that Discipline.

Compare to the 6th world of Shadowrun, where only about 1% of the population can use any magic at all (and the percent of the population that are full adepts and magicians is even smaller).  This is the difference in mana levels between the games.  ED is on the downslope of the mana cycle (after the Horrors invaded) whereas SR is on the beginning of the upslope (before the Horrors invade).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (17:49:59/02-16-11)
Compare to the 6th world of Shadowrun, where only about 1% of the population can use any magic at all (and the percent of the population that are full adepts and magicians is even smaller).  This is the difference in mana levels between the games.  ED is on the downslope of the mana cycle (after the Horrors invaded) whereas SR is on the beginning of the upslope (before the Horrors invade).
And unless you're playing an immortal PC-race, they shouldn't affect your Shadowrun game for another, what, two-thousand years?

I'm good with that timeframe!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (06:13:18/02-17-11)
I'm good with that timeframe!

Positive...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Morg on (04:23:21/02-18-11)
one wonders about areas like Abilene and Auschwitz they have a domain rating of about 6 I don't think it would be that difficult to push it just a little farther, at the vary least I can see some horror constructs passing their time there until it gets a little bump

Side Track: could you image a recreation of the Nazi Thule society (Thule-Gesellschaft) using the power of Auschwitz to call on the "prophesied reformer of Germany) with a horror construct as mentor spirit (visions of hellboy)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (06:24:58/02-18-11)
No, not really. I'd rather see Auschwitz left alone. There are places more suitable to the Enemy's needs.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (07:34:11/02-18-11)
Yeah, Nazi Orichalcum doesn't roll off the tongue as well as Nazi Gold.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (08:05:42/02-18-11)
I was thinking more about the Auschwitz part. As for any pulp-style nazi occult stuff, with werewolves, vampires, zombies, and such - that's okay with me. :)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (09:37:16/02-18-11)
Truthfully, the Horrors would be bored with Auschwitz.  Horrors can only gain sustenance if they are the ones that infict the suffering, not if the person is suffering already.  Hence the craziness of the Blood Wood.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (16:42:09/02-18-11)
Truthfully, the Horrors would be bored with Auschwitz.  Horrors can only gain sustenance if they are the ones that infict the suffering, not if the person is suffering already. 
I didn't think this was the case.

Sure, suffering that they directly/indirectly cause is more of a banquet, but any suffering would serve as food....and such high areas would count as a low-quality buffet!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (17:00:29/02-18-11)
Truthfully, the Horrors would be bored with Auschwitz.  Horrors can only gain sustenance if they are the ones that infict the suffering, not if the person is suffering already. 
I didn't think this was the case.

Sure, suffering that they directly/indirectly cause is more of a banquet, but any suffering would serve as food....and such high areas would count as a low-quality buffet!

Not even that. more like a sign: "Zimmer frei..."
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (23:02:00/02-18-11)
Not even that. more like a sign: "Zimmer frei..."
My trusty web translator has Zero valid ideas on that phrase :P

Translation?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (02:42:44/02-19-11)
It means "Vacancies", it could be founded in border towns and vilages close to german east borders.

It is like on the places like Brzezinka, Auschwitz, Hiroshima, Gulag archipelago etc. are like flashing banners that is visible from the distance for the Horrors, screaming into the darknes:
"HEEEY. EARTH HERE... WE KNOW YOU ARE OUT THERE AND WE ARE SO EAGER TO HAVE YOU BACK THAT WE BEHAVE LIKE YOU ARE NOT NEEDED. WE DONE WELL WITHOUT YOU SO PLEASE COME AND FINISH THE JOB. WE HAVE BEEN SO HARDWORKING STUDENTS OF YOURS, PLEASE DONT MAKE US WAIT MUCH LONGER OR THERE WOULD BE NOTHING LEFT FOR YOU TO HARVEST..."

As they are +6 Domains aspected to what I imagine should be considered of path of Horrors, there is +6 peak and as such there is great possibility that building a bridge would be much easier... Hope taht places like this highly guarded by astral means...
What scares me, that ie on Siberia there would be dozen of such places that are unknown to anyone...but those who are looking for them...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (03:38:18/02-19-11)
Let's not forget that Aztechnology reputedly hired a bunch of former KGB types . . .
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (03:56:55/02-19-11)
Let's not forget that Aztechnology reputedly hired a bunch of former KGB types . . .

Aha...I ve never herad of it...may you give more datailed info?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (09:44:23/02-19-11)
Truthfully, the Horrors would be bored with Auschwitz.  Horrors can only gain sustenance if they are the ones that infict the suffering, not if the person is suffering already. 
I didn't think this was the case.

Sure, suffering that they directly/indirectly cause is more of a banquet, but any suffering would serve as food....and such high areas would count as a low-quality buffet!
Nope, they derive no sustenance from just any old suffering.  Which is why the Ritual of the Thorns, which caused thorns to grow through the skin of all the elves in the Blood Wood, worked as well as it did.  The intelligent ones that fed on suffering and pain couldn't get anything more out of the Blood Elves (not without a lot more work, there were easier pickings elsewhere), and the less intelligent ones, which just ate everything, were much easier to deal with.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (10:16:40/02-19-11)
You make it sound like the elves did that to themselves, deliberately?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (10:38:50/02-19-11)
You make it sound like the elves did that to themselves, deliberately?
Yep. Made for some ... interesting debates with other elves that thought it was too much. And those feelings still linger among the immortal elves today.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (11:14:05/02-19-11)
Let's not forget that Aztechnology reputedly hired a bunch of former KGB types . . .

Aha...I ve never herad of it...may you give more datailed info?

It was mentioned in the Aztlan s/b, pg 79.  I also have a vague memory of a particular Russian name being mentioned, but I'm unsure of just where that might be from - SOTA64 maybe?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (13:09:56/02-19-11)
If you heard the name "Alachia" or "The Blood Queen" that would be the person who was ruling and decided to enact the rather...questionable policies of the time.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (14:04:49/02-19-11)
On the other hand, free cyberspurs!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (14:39:20/02-19-11)
If you heard the name "Alachia" or "The Blood Queen" that would be the person who was ruling and decided to enact the rather...questionable policies of the time.

I have not red any Tir sourcebooks, but I have this feeling that Tir na Nog is somehow connected...isnt it?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (15:11:16/02-19-11)
Nope, they kicked her out of there.  She was unpopular because she threatened to kick anyone out of "Elven Culture" (it was important to the elves, for whatever reason) if they didn't do what she said regarding the Theran protections prior to the Scourge.  The rest of elfdom told her to slot off and effectivlely neutered her power base.

She was in Tir Tairngaire (sp?) book, I do believe.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (16:49:44/02-19-11)
I know that blood wood or blood elves were outcasts... well they doid survive the scourge. I thought she was one of immortals...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (18:25:51/02-19-11)
Wait...Elven Culture?  And brutal self mutilation?
"Brutal!? You don 't know the MEANING of brutal until you've heard the story of Culture Three!  How brutal WAS Culture Three you ask?  Culture Three was SO brutal that they maimed, tortured, enslaved, and in general brutalized THEMSELVES!"
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (00:01:14/02-20-11)
I know that blood wood or blood elves were outcasts... well they doid survive the scourge. I thought she was one of immortals...
I thought it was heavily implied (if not outright confirmed) in the old Tir Tairngir sourcebook that Alachia was alive, well and thorn-free.

Is this not the case?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (01:35:28/02-20-11)
Heavily implied. There's been no official confirmation that she is, nor which name she is using now.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (03:30:04/02-20-11)
Check the Ancient History site for details on Alachia.

As far as i know Alachia = Sheila Blatavska of the Atlantean Foundation (= the poster Hecate) = former Tir Tairngire Prince Sosan Naerain.

And no, Alachia isn't the Russian name I can't quite remember.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (05:00:45/02-20-11)
Check the Ancient History site for details on Alachia.

As far as i know Alachia = Sheila Blatavska of the Atlantean Foundation (= the poster Hecate) = former Tir Tairngire Prince Sosan Naerain.

And no, Alachia isn't the Russian name I can't quite remember.

Well...Atlantean foundation = Mystic Crusaders... I`ve only played the first Artefact adventure with my players yet, but this informations ARE something..Id have to read other Artifact adventures right now :)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (09:33:50/02-20-11)
Alachia was a high Circle troubadour adept (think diplomancer/face with magic) back in the day.  I'm quite sure she's gotten pretty powerful.  To put it in perspective, the highest Circle troubadours were capable of talking Horrors into going home and never coming back.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (07:20:13/02-21-11)
Not only troubadour, i think. She was on the last Path.
And her power wasn't what she could do, but what her Blood Warders could. And they were amongst the highest-circle NPCs in the whole setting.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (11:27:02/02-21-11)
But in the SR universe, her power is also limited by current mana level,  isn`t it?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (11:40:45/02-21-11)
I'm trying, and failing, to picture the BTL-Chipping Man as an atagonist who covers up the threat of the Horrors.  Unless he's a Personafix Chip...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (12:10:55/02-21-11)
But in the SR universe, her power is also limited by current mana level,  isn`t it?
Only the raw power. Not skill, nor experience and connections. That's the problems with IE's. They had millenia to train and prepare.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (12:36:38/02-21-11)
There weren't many that could match the high Circles for raw power.  Her Blood Warders were butch, but none of them were Masters.  The highest Circle character I know of (back in the day) was Garlthik One-Eye, 100+ year old ork ruler of Kratas and 15th Circle Thief adept.

In today's time, Harlequin and Ehran the Scribe are both roughly 15th Circle Wizard and Warrior adepts.  You're right, much of their power is still locked away due to the low mana levels, but their connections and skill have few peers (dragons and other IE's can match them, but few others can).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (18:24:01/02-21-11)
In today's time, Harlequin and Ehran the Scribe are both roughly 15th Circle Wizard and Warrior adepts.  You're right, much of their power is still locked away due to the low mana levels, but their connections and skill have few peers (dragons and other IE's can match them, but few others can).
And horrors. Don't forget horrors. You know the thread title? :P
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (19:57:49/02-21-11)
Wait, Harlequin isn't at FULL STRENGTH yet?  What happens when he does get there, does he go MORE insane?

As for The Horrors...  Oh, they're coming.  Far, far too soon.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (20:06:12/02-21-11)
Wait, Harlequin isn't at FULL STRENGTH yet?  What happens when he does get there, does he go MORE insane?
Well yes, actually.

As for The Horrors...  Oh, they're coming.  Far, far too soon.
Estimated Two-thousand years...I'm cool with that.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (07:32:44/02-22-11)
And when they do... Well, look up Equinox. I really do hope that's going to be done soon. Windlings in space!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Fizzygoo on (17:27:19/02-22-11)
"Hey? Is that a thor shot coming down?"
"No."
"What the hell is that?"
"Well...looks like a skydiving Obsidiman."
"What?! No way, it ca...oh yeah, his 'chute just opened up, stand down."

-Puppet Show by Carlinquin the Comedic Horror
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (08:52:48/02-23-11)
Wait, Harlequin isn't at FULL STRENGTH yet?  What happens when he does get there, does he go MORE insane?

As for The Horrors...  Oh, they're coming.  Far, far too soon.
He's nowhere near full power.

He can't even resurrect the dead yet, and that's not even a top Circle power.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (09:11:29/02-23-11)
At this mana level i think nobody can. That was a legendary spell in Earthdawn era...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (09:04:22/02-24-11)
Actually, it was only 10th Circle.  That's the Warden status, not Master.  Rare but hardly legendary.

What's legendary is Garlthik One-Eye, the 100+ year old 15th Circle ork Thief adept.  He's lived as long as he has because at night in his dreams he sneaks into Death's realm and steals his days back.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Fortinbras on (14:47:42/02-24-11)
Come to think of it, I did see a really old one-eyed ork in the Seattle Underground...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (16:23:26/02-24-11)
It was in the Companion in first edition. As one of the legendary spells - Journey To Life, i think. That was the only resurrection spell in the game that was not limited by time. The others were just a spell version of a charm/salve, or were paid in Karma pool burned.

P.S. There are no immortal orks. Elves are enough. :P
An you wouldn't see Garlthik. You'd only loose all of your possessions in a miraculous way.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (17:06:26/02-24-11)
P.S. There are no immortal orks. Elves are enough. :P
Didn't Vasdjenas give the 'Long view' to the Dwarves?
And didn't Deinarastas give the 'Long view' to the Humans?

It's not Impossible that there are some immortal orks.... and if anyone's going to don it, old Garlthik could be the dude ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (19:01:28/02-24-11)
Who knows?  Maybe the other races are better at keeping secrets?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (19:21:50/02-24-11)
Who knows?  Maybe the other races are better at keeping secrets?
And wouldn't that just royally upset all those uppity elves? :D
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (20:14:21/02-24-11)
Bah, they need to be taken down a peg.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (20:43:03/02-24-11)
Bah, they need to be taken down a peg.
...or three.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (05:17:50/02-25-11)
Charybdis, only the thoralic dynasty received a longevity potion from Icewing/Ghostwalker. And it seriously messed with their fertility... And as for the Denairastas clan, you know what he was banished for and named Outcast? For having offspring with the 'lesser races', and messing with True Drakes.

And any Immortals would have to be - according to ED canon - either Dragon or Horror induced. Even epic spells of the 15-th Circle can't cheat death...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (09:13:43/02-25-11)
There is a Nethermancer spell that can do it, but it requires hiding on a Netherworld during the downtime.

So, not really practical.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (12:57:24/02-25-11)
Especially since there are so many things that could eat one there.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Frostriese on (20:52:53/02-25-11)
Bah, they need to be taken down a peg.
Oh, I dunno. I always enjoyed the (Immortal) Elven elitarism theme. Really didn't like how the two Tirs were already taken down several notches, especially that revolution in TT. That elitarism is simple the elven "shtick", so to say, so why take it away from them?

There is a Nethermancer spell that can do it, but it requires hiding on a Netherworld during the downtime.

So, not really practical.
Especially since there are so many things that could eat one there.
Well, I have no clue about ED rules / magical background, but to me that sounds like that would be a fighting chance at least, and I'd say even a minimal chance (to beat death) is better than none at all.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (02:27:37/02-26-11)
Well, it's a ritual that requires one to sacrifice their life force, permanently.  Essentially, they slowly weaken with each casting, but they get to live another 15 to 20 years per cast.  The only way to keep from becoming decrepit in short order is to use death magic to suck out someone else's life force while you stay young.

Oh, and if you fail any of the spellcasting tests, all of your put off years catch up to you.  All at once.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (04:35:26/02-26-11)
Off course, as a Nethermancer I'd really want to re-make myself into a Great Form Free Spirit, actually. That'd be better and more along the Discipline path. I bet there are few of those who succeeded still along, even if they don't remember it.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Charybdis on (05:44:08/02-26-11)
Off course, as a Nethermancer I'd really want to re-make myself into a Great Form Free Spirit, actually. That'd be better and more along the Discipline path. I bet there are few of those who succeeded still along, even if they don't remember it.
I like this concept.... makes a lot more sense than trying to keep a physical body sustained throughout the low mana cycle...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Jame Rowe on (16:44:12/02-26-11)
they do have a 3rd ed. that they're currently printing through redbrick i believe

2nd Ed was Redbrick. As I understand it, 3rd Ed is now Mongoose.

I'd buy the Player's book but I have other books which come first, like A Time of War for Battletech.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (03:17:21/02-27-11)
Off course, as a Nethermancer I'd really want to re-make myself into a Great Form Free Spirit, actually. That'd be better and more along the Discipline path. I bet there are few of those who succeeded still along, even if they don't remember it.

Wouldn't this count as a form of - or a step towards - Ascension, kind-of-sort-of?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (03:26:25/02-27-11)
they do have a 3rd ed. that they're currently printing through redbrick i believe

2nd Ed was Redbrick. As I understand it, 3rd Ed is now Mongoose.

I'd buy the Player's book but I have other books which come first, like A Time of War for Battletech.
The 2nd edition was Living Room Games.  Earthdawn Classic (kindof a revised 1st edition, called EDC) was done by RedBrick.  The newest edition, 3rd ed., is also done by RedBrick but published under Mongoose's Flaming Cobra imprint.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (06:20:34/02-27-11)
Wouldn't this count as a form of - or a step towards - Ascension, kind-of-sort-of?
That depends what the term means to you. I'd say that's a quasi-natural way, since there are Namegiver Spirits around in the Age of Legends - there is a Talent (or talent knack in the 3rd edition) that lets you summon a spirit of a long dead master of your Discipline and coax him into teaching you.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (10:47:58/05-31-11)
And a nightmare thought for a Horror that doesn't really need to 'come across' to cause havoc with it's Horror Mark.

Azzvat-Many-Eyes

Typically it doesn't manifest too much. doesn't really need to. What it does is that it 'corrupts' objects that are rounded (coins, buttons, etc.) with a very special Horror Mark that passes itself on to those who who handle the rounded objects....it has time and works it's way past the magickal defenses slowly.

once this is done, any rounded object viewed by the person will look normal to the victim, but then crack itself open much like and eye and stare at the target with the force of the Thing behind it, looking into thier soul.

now imagine this let loose in the 2070's

Round icons, signs, dinner plates, mirrors, tires.

Pretty much anything round.

You may now run.

Screaming.

Or claw your optics out.

Except that won't help.

Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (21:29:09/06-01-11)
Duh, of course that won't help; you have to turn off the antialiasing.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (08:31:41/06-02-11)
Duh, of course that won't help; you have to turn off the antialiasing.

and if the shutdown interface icon in your VI looks round?  ;D
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (08:35:06/06-02-11)
Buy Reality filter built on Tetris layout.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (12:53:18/06-02-11)
Duh, of course that won't help; you have to turn off the antialiasing.

and if the shutdown interface icon in your VI looks round?  ;D
Poke him in the eye and run away. WOOB WOOB WOOB!

Seriously, when I think about it, that sounds like a terrible power; making millions of ways to get a poke in the eye. And you should hope you didn't use it on a dude who knows a joygirl with a perfectly round...
Anyway, I'm suddenly thinking of...what was that black & white movie with the rocket sticking out of the Mean in the Moon's eye?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (14:11:02/06-02-11)
that's kinda the point....it makes you percieve anything round as an eye. One that's boring into your soul. You can't escape it and it can inflict pain at any time. you can't escape it's gaze. it's always there watching.

Hello people treating you as schizo
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (23:02:22/06-02-11)
Yeah, only the victim sees the Eye.  It's only there in his or her mind.  Gazing, boring into their soul and drinking up their sanity.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (22:45:13/06-05-11)
Sorry, I just can't get the Three Stooges out of my head.

Anyway, I just had a thought in another thread.  What are the possibilities of Horrors in space?  I mean, it's outside the manasphere, which is a requirement for their continued existence, or at least arrival, right?
And does that mean Horrors actually require humans/living creatures to arrive and survive?

So when the Seventh World rolls around, will there be orbital Kaers?  A refugee fleet?  The Free Earthling Resistance, based on Luna or Mars?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: bigity on (22:48:40/06-05-11)
Never ever apologize for constantly remembering the Three Stooges.  Or W.C. Fields or the Marx Brothers for that matter.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (08:55:59/06-06-11)
Sorry, I just can't get the Three Stooges out of my head.

Anyway, I just had a thought in another thread.  What are the possibilities of Horrors in space?  I mean, it's outside the manasphere, which is a requirement for their continued existence, or at least arrival, right?
And does that mean Horrors actually require humans/living creatures to arrive and survive?

So when the Seventh World rolls around, will there be orbital Kaers?  A refugee fleet?  The Free Earthling Resistance, based on Luna or Mars?

The Horror's go directly into Things from Beyond Territory, but unlike Lovecraftian stuff, are at least comprehensible at the end of the day. In short, They Feed On Pain and Suffering of Thier Targets. Some are wider ranging that others, some have rather specific requirements on how they can feed, but at the end of the day, They Feed On Metahumanity.

They also have a pretty high Manasphere requirement which is why they aren't here yet in 2072. I'm still trying to figure out how they are supposed to come out of a Mana Ebb personally
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (09:42:46/06-06-11)
They don't.  It won't be until roughly the year 4000 that they will be able to breach our reality with ease.  The void of space will be an insurmountable obstacle...for a while.

Eventually, they will figure out a way across space.  That's when (in Equinox) the rest of humanity out in the colonies blast Earth with enough firepower to turn it into an asteroid field, thus squashing any link the Horrors have to our plane of existence.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (12:40:36/06-06-11)
Equinox?  I've never heard of it.  You mean there's another one after Shadowrun?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: FastJack on (12:43:23/06-06-11)
Equinox?  I've never heard of it.  You mean there's another one after Shadorun?
Equinox (http://www.redbrick-limited.com/cms/index.php?categoryid=60)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (12:49:21/06-06-11)
Jinkies, that's pretty cool.  Thanks, Jack.
Now I'm wishing my paychecks weren't offset for another month.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (13:17:00/06-06-11)
Jinkies, that's pretty cool.  Thanks, Jack.
Now I'm wishing my paychecks weren't offset for another month.

Don't worry about it. IT's been vaporware for some time
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (18:32:53/06-06-11)
Rats.  Oh well.

I'll just have to make my own, with blackjack, and hookers!
...I do like the blackjack rolling systems.  And I think Deadlands already used cards at one point.  All that's left is the Hookers...IN SPACE!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (21:56:38/06-06-11)
Deadlands had cards indeed, even had their own set of decks.  And I think they had space hookers as well.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rockopolis on (23:03:29/06-06-11)
Miniature Giant Space Hookers?

...wow, this is incredibly off-topic for an entirely logical short and strong chain of events.

Trying to navigate back; I forget, do spells (sustained or otherwise), foci, enchantments, and such work, last, or even target outside the gaiasphere?  Does Orichalcum fall apart?

Never played Deadlands, but it does sound interesting.  Like everything else.
Had a gamemaster who set a Initiation Metaplanar Quest in a very strange Wild West, though, and dragged the rest of the party into it.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (23:56:15/06-06-11)
Yeah, any Metaplanar Quests I'm doing are going to be from Deadlands Adventures.

I'm going to start with Night Train (http://www.studio2publishing.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=26_77_145&products_id=2480).  Which, IIRC, required my group to finish off a bottle of Night Train in order to deal with the horrors that I threw at them.  *Evil GM Grin*
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Grinder on (04:53:18/06-07-11)
Jinkies, that's pretty cool.  Thanks, Jack.
Now I'm wishing my paychecks weren't offset for another month.

Don't worry about it. IT's been vaporware for some time

ETA is 2012. :)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (09:21:44/06-07-11)
When I see it :)

Otherwise....it's duke nuke'em territory
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (10:47:04/06-07-11)
They are actually releasing Duke Nukem...finally.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (11:08:43/06-07-11)
They are actually releasing Duke Nukem...finally.
A week today in NA, in fact.

I know I'm going to rent a copy.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: bigity on (08:59:29/06-11-11)
They are actually releasing Duke Nukem...finally.
A week today in NA, in fact.

I know I'm going to rent a copy.

Too bad I am 15 years past caring. DNF could never live up to the expectations I had back in 1996.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (12:28:20/06-11-11)
ROFLMAO . . . Duke Nukem gets discussed under the Horrors subject - for some reason this strikes me as wildly appropriate.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (13:28:38/06-11-11)
ROFLMAO . . . Duke Nukem gets discussed under the Horrors subject - for some reason this strikes me as wildly appropriate.
Speaking of horror, every rental place within walking distance of me just closed.  :(
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (08:50:43/06-13-11)
I disbeleive!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: freddieflatline on (12:55:29/06-15-11)
ROFLMAO . . . Duke Nukem gets discussed under the Horrors subject - for some reason this strikes me as wildly appropriate.
Speaking of horror, every rental place within walking distance of me just closed.  :(

Unfortunately not surprising as Netflix and other streaming services become more popular.  Video Stores especially mom and pop places are going the way of the dinosaurs.  What kills me is even if you have a Redbox near you it does not have the selection that the old video stores had. 
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Cailieg on (18:27:14/04-09-12)
I would have started a new thread to discuss the Horrors in the Sixth Age, but really figure if its got such a rich topical history I may as well use what we have here.

IF, IF, Horrors were to come through early what type of statistics would you attribute to them. I have a follow up to Aztlan pg 68 in the works based on Dzitlbach's death and the attempts to kill Sirrug. And it may well bring a momentary bridge between the world of the 6th and the Horrors realm.

What powers would you attribute to them, what of theirs would you see weakened (the world is not ready for them but one slips through is the idea), etc.


Alexis
*smiles*
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CitizenJoe on (18:56:20/04-09-12)
There are two things to consider:
1) What is the mana level required to sustain a specific Horror
2) What is the threshold to allow said Horror to pass

I suspect that the more powerful horrors are going to require higher mana levels to sustain them.  Thus we'd only see the weaker horrors capable of existing on the low end of the mana spectrum.  Low level horrors, while dangerous, are not apocalyptic.  While many people would likely die to them, they could be defeated.  These low level horrors probably can't get through the threshold without help though.

The more powerful horrors could force their way through smaller thresholds, but the mana level isn't present to support them so they could not stay long or they may not have full access to their abilities.

So keeping the threshold closed can keep out the weak ones, but not the powerful ones.  The only thing keeping the powerful ones at bay is the lack of mana to support them once they get here.  The question is then do you want to fight all of them all at once with no preparation or do you want to fight the weak ones first and learn the skills you need to get prepared?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (23:23:34/04-09-12)
Actually, higher level horrors just need a certain mana level to make the jump. They can still be sustained at lower levels, however. For instance, one of the big nasty horrors already showed up in one of the novels years ago to mess with Aina. If something like Verjigorm showed up, there'd be no hiding it, obviously, but some of the most powerful horrors were some of the most subtle, and enjoyed tormenting their victims mentally instead of just eating them. If Yrsgrath(sp?) can pass over at one of the spike points, then others could as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the massive use of blood magic that the Azzies unleashed at the start of the Az-Am war created a spike point large enough for some horrors to slip through.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Cailieg on (23:54:30/04-09-12)
That is actually why I am asking for some mechanical assistance in how to represent them.

See, in my campaign world, Dzitlbach's spirit is being tortured. And what they plan to do to Sirrug is flat out stomach turning. But if they succeed their new CEO will be given a great mas--- I mean gift! And will have allowed something wholly unsavory onto this plane much earlier than the world was ready for.

So I am thinking on which to pick and how to deal with it. have my copies of Horrors and Scourge Unending out for use, but figuring out who best represents what is going on. What if anything will get through and how to mechanically represent it.


Alexis
*smiles*
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (04:03:26/04-10-12)
I would definnitively link its attributes to their force/magic, the way spirits are (what I really dont understand is why Dragons are not treated this way)...then some nice mix of powers, modified powers and new ones (note that RAW you can treat power quite flexible, those descriptions in rules are said to be Examples and GM s are suggested to find their own way to work around this...)
Also, Mirikons idea that powerfull survives longer (and even are able to survive) seems proper for this situation...
since earth right now is something like -20 background count for them, they would need at least Force 21 to be able to survive. Alsdo...effects of evanescence may be applied if they dont get anchored in this world. And, thats for sure...the peak allowing them to come throught should be at least at their force level, so the equilibrium is achieved between world...Harmony of the spheres... ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Crimsondude on (05:32:57/04-10-12)
I would definnitively link its attributes to their force/magic, the way spirits are (what I really dont understand is why Dragons are not treated this way)
Because dragons are special snowflakes that can be killed by cavemen with magic (ED) but not by 21st century weapons of war.

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I say that?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (06:28:17/04-10-12)
Now This reveals truth behind a lot of things I didnt understand :P

No, really...When I saw Lafwyrs stats in Street legends, I realized that this is some pretty misleading step, because even if magic is in permanent increase, it doesnt affect this...one of most powerfull magical beings...and recalling what was said about dragons in ED sourcebooks and some other sources Ive came across, Dragons are deeply involved in this manacycle shit and even in metaplanes. In such case, separating this kind of entities from mechanism that keeps them on the TOP during the whole curve of mana flow, well, breakc the concept somehow...on the other side, maybe that`s just today`s mood of mine that Im poking in this
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (08:06:42/04-10-12)
Dragons aren't spirits, however. They are living, breathing creatures, who just happen to be bigger, stronger, more intelligent, older, and tougher than you will ever be. And unlike other Name-givers, they get stronger the older they get. Their abilities fall into two categories. They have their racial abilities (same as elves have low-light vision, and trolls have natural armor), and they have their magical abilities (spellcasting and conjuring). Just as a troll doesn't get any stronger when there's a background count, neither does a dragon's hide get thicker. A dragon's hide is thick because he's been growing it for a few thousand years.

Yes, dragons could be brought down with magic during the Earthdawn period. But it took a lot of magic, even at the height of the mana cycle. Even Great Dragons could be killed. Of course, it took an airship that was basically a chunk of mountain held aloft by magic, with a small army of magicians and people using magical cannons, but yes, Great Dragons were killed. And they could be killed in Shadowrun, too. It is difficult for metahumans to kill Dragons, even the normal kind, but it is possible. Could Sirrurg, Lofwyr, or Hestaby be killed? Of course. Could metahumans do it? Certainly. Would it take an army? Most definitely.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Crimsondude on (08:44:14/04-10-12)
Alamais surviving orbital laser bombardment is a travesty.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (09:11:04/04-10-12)
The lasers hurt him bad, however, and it was years before he was seen again, possibly implying that he took a long time to heal from wounds like that. If a follow-up strike had hit him, they might have been able to kill him outright.

Remember, as CanRay says, there are levels of 'dead'. Level 1: "The bomb went off and destroyed the building he was in, he must be dead." Level 2: "I shot him twice center mass before he fell off the cliff. He must be dead!" Level 3: "I shot him twice, checked to see if he was breathing, and dumped him in a shallow grave." Finally, Level 4: "I shot him twice in the chest, once more in the head, decapitated the body, and then burned and salted the remains, before dumping it all into the ocean."

They stopped at Level 2 with Alamais.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (09:24:20/04-10-12)
You forgot Level 5.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (09:28:24/04-10-12)
There was something about that laser strike on Alamais that was weird - the result of it was that he resembled his Fourth World (physical) self even more, i.e. the scar running down his chest.  In 4W that scar was the result of his conflict with the elves of Blood Wood - he was almost certainly known as Elfbane back then.

It was like he was being "restored" to his former appearance, like the universe was saying to him "don't forget . . ." Pity we don't know more about the events leading up to the laser strike.

Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Malathis on (10:36:03/04-10-12)
You forgot Level 5.

I'll bite, whats Level 5?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (10:43:31/04-10-12)
There was something about that laser strike on Alamais that was weird - the result of it was that he resembled his Fourth World (physical) self even more, i.e. the scar running down his chest.  In 4W that scar was the result of his conflict with the elves of Blood Wood - he was almost certainly known as Elfbane back then.

It was like he was being "restored" to his former appearance, like the universe was saying to him "don't forget . . ." Pity we don't know more about the events leading up to the laser strike.

In fact, Im completely clueless in this matter...what source?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (10:47:15/04-10-12)
And I thought it was Feurschwing(sp?) that got hit by orbital bombardment?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (10:52:16/04-10-12)
And I thought it was Feurschwing(sp?) that got hit by orbital bombardment?

IMO this one was killed by Lofwyr personally  in the duel above the Frankfurt...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (11:12:57/04-10-12)
There was something about that laser strike on Alamais that was weird - the result of it was that he resembled his Fourth World (physical) self even more, i.e. the scar running down his chest.  In 4W that scar was the result of his conflict with the elves of Blood Wood - he was almost certainly known as Elfbane back then.

It was like he was being "restored" to his former appearance, like the universe was saying to him "don't forget . . ." Pity we don't know more about the events leading up to the laser strike.

In fact, Im completely clueless in this matter...what source?



Earthdawn Book of Dragons, and  SR Dragons of the Sixth World.  Sorry, I should have stated that my previous was my impression of the laser/Alamais event.

Nachtmeister was the dragon killed by Lofwyr above Frankfurt, in 2062.  Feuerschwinge went down in the SOX in 2012.  And yes, I know about the survival theory.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Cailieg on (11:36:20/04-10-12)
So assuming a Rating 21+ Horror would be needed (theoretical number based on another posters number) to sustain itself in the Earth's current Manasphere, which might be drawn to the activities of Aztlan/Aztechnology. Namely the physical desecration of dragon remains in blood magic to summon and bind the Dragon's spirit, and large rituals to then torture the spirit of first Dzitlbach. Then iff they get their way the physical torture then desecration/spiritual torture of Sirrug as part of a bridging ritual based in Blood Magic?




Alexis
*smiles*
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (12:50:13/04-10-12)
You forgot Level 5.
I'll bite, whats Level 5?
Level 5 didn't exist until I read it in a Dresden Files novel:  "Drop the guy in the middle of a nuclear explosive testing range with 1/2 second on the clock."

You get vaporization with witnesses to ensure he doesn't come back.

Level 6 involves even more extreme measures.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Simagal on (13:24:47/04-10-12)
Alamais surviving orbital laser bombardment is a travesty.

That happens a lot when I roll for damage. (In almost all game systems.) :'(
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Angelone on (20:43:19/04-10-12)
Alamais didn't get hit with orbital lasers he got hit with plane mounted lasers, basically a Firelance. Not saying he shouldn't have died but there's a big difference between the two. I hope Hestaby gets it next.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (20:58:49/04-10-12)
I've been wondering, Angel, why such hate for Hestaby?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Angelone on (21:18:14/04-10-12)
She's a traitor to her own kind, if there's one thing you don't do it's sell out family. Airing dirty laundry isn't cool either, handle your beef in house.

Edit- Also she's always been "that other dragon", what unique thing has she done? Besides cheat during the dragon competition.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Black on (22:03:14/04-10-12)
Alamais didn't get hit with orbital lasers he got hit with plane mounted lasers, basically a Firelance. Not saying he shouldn't have died but there's a big difference between the two. I hope Hestaby gets it next.

That was in one of the older novels... Fuchi took him out?  Am I remembering that right?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Angelone on (22:41:28/04-10-12)
It was in Night's Pawn, the character was involved with Fuchi but an unnamed Eastern European country dropped the hammer.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (03:05:34/04-11-12)
I gues it wasnt exactly "Eastern" but it was european at least. I recall hearing that this happens somewhere in Ardens?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (05:14:33/04-11-12)
Re: Horror stats, go do a little hunting in the Threats book for Mr. Darke.  He has two types of Horrors he can call ...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (06:02:42/04-11-12)
Re: Horror stats, go do a little hunting in the Threats book for Mr. Darke.  He has two types of Horrors he can call ...

I have an impression he is involved somehow in Aztlan and whole Dulkezahn situation, but in fact I didnt seen any further references of this Threat, since I wasnt playing 3rd ed exactly by the setting books...it wasnt easy to get my hands on them here in Eastern europe. What is his further appearance, if you can point me to related links/Events?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Angelone on (19:32:36/04-11-12)
He's in Harlequin's Back as the BBEG. Not sure if his stat line stayed the same between those books.

Regarding Night's Pawn, I was under the impression the attackers were from one of the Balkan countries. It was a black op and they didn't have any identifiers, iirc they spoke Russian. 
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Nath on (17:43:25/04-12-12)
M. Darke appeared first as an antagonist in the campaign Harlequin's Back. The sourcebook Threats gave revised stats for him. And he finally appeared again as an antagonist in the Dragonheart Trilogy novels (Stranger Souls, Clockwork Asylum and Beyond The Pale) wherre he ends up killed, seemingly for good. Corporate Download dealt with the aftermath of an Aztechnology higher-up called "Oscuro", who was leading the blood mages faction within the corporation and vanished in a time frame consistent with the Dragonheart trilogy events. It is likely Oscuro is another name for M. Darke. Corporate Guide mentions again Oscuro role and his death.

Also, Geraldo Solis, a former Aztechnology board member retired on Zurich-Orbital, in Corporate Download, and Ad El-Hameed Hassani, an Aztlan citizen of Lybian descent heading the Apep Consortium whose bodyguards are former Aztechnology Jaguar guards, in Loose Alliances are heavily hinted as former associates of M. Darke, unless one of them actually is M. Darke.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (22:49:01/05-23-12)
Something I believe has been said before (by myself, not just others, most likely) is that Horrors aren't villians.  They are hungry, viscious, and commit terribly evil acts and often corrupt others into doing even worse, but they aren't mustache-twirling "I've got you NOW, my pretty!" evil villians.

They do what they do because they feed off the negative energies that their actions generate in their victims (and, occasionally, the flesh of their victims) and not because it's eeeeeeeevil.  They do it to survive.  Horrors tap into many fears (in you and the players, not just the characters), but the most primal one is the whole being eaten alive thing.  They do that in spades, and make you suffer every nasty second of it.

So, please remember, no matter what stats you give them, no matter what powers you give them, Horrors are there to consume prey.  Metahumanity just happens to be that prey (or the most common type), so make sure the Horror uses every scrap of cunning to get what it needs from some very dangerous targets.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (06:36:22/05-24-12)
The low level horrors are like that, Gunny, but the REALLY dangerous ones are sadistic, evil bastards that take great pleasure in finding new and delightful ways to torment their prey. Yes, they have to feed on emotions to survive. And vampires have to feed on essence. However, there's a big difference between taking a 'donation' from a willing victim, as some vampires do, and ripping someone's throat out as you drain them dry.

The Blood Wood survived the Scourge only because having the people inflict constant, agonizing pain on themselves made them TASTE BAD!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (14:07:12/05-24-12)
Ok, which would you rather have?  Ramen noodles or a good steak?  That's the difference for the more powerful Horrors.  They are more sadistic because that is what it takes to get them the good stuff they both need and crave.

And also, serious question, would you rather have a handful of Cocoa Puffs or a hot fudge sundae for dessert?  Think on it.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (14:56:08/05-24-12)
Yeah, they're parasites more than Evilk for Evil's Sake. We might not like tapeworms, for instance, but it's in their best interest for us to stay alive so they can feed.

As for dragons, Alamais was hit by an airplane-mounted laser and lived, but was out of sight for a while so he must have been hurt rather terribly. The scar's a nice reminder of his mortality. Firewings was a tad loco, and lashed out at German airforce assets when they found her. She wound up getting wounded in the fight (Missiles? What are thoOW OW OW!) and went down in radiation land. Rumor has it that she's still alive, but full-blown toxic and WAY crazy. No confirmed sightings, however, just a lot of really impressive rumors. Nightmaster and Lofwyr did the dragon deathdance over Germany, and Lofwyr won. No one's ever said what happened to the body, however.

Ghostwalker fought some conventional assets when dealing with Denver, but they were hampered by the environment and by the groups not trusting one another (Oh Denver, never change!) ... By and large, dragons tend to take the view of "In enough numbers, it could end badly for me. Stay low, get others to do your dirty work for you, and if all else fails, cheat to win."

LESSER dragons have been thumped here and there, or served as parts of a greater force, but are nowhere near as hard to gun down if needed.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (19:14:24/05-24-12)
Alamais's scar is actually something left over from the Fourth World, when he tried to reclaim his home in Wyrm Wood.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: IKerensky on (07:57:28/05-25-12)
And dont forget the worse things about horrors : They are already present in the shape of their denatured descent...

... The Dragons !!!

Yes, the dragons are not from our earth but originated from the horror meta-plane their progenitor fleed. No wonder they are so alien to other races.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (08:48:06/05-25-12)
Actually, Nightslayer was one of the horoi, that were created by the Dark One, who would later be Named Verjigorm. Nightslayer came to a world that the horoi had not yet corrupted, and cried nine tears for joy at the sight. The first tear became Dayheart, the first dragon, and each of the others became the other Namegiver races: Human, Ork, Troll, Elf, Dwarf, Windling, T'skrang, and Obsidimen.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: IKerensky on (09:17:38/05-25-12)
Yeah, but didn't All-Wings also been one of the primal dragon in another version of the tale ? I need to check book once more... (and again and again :p ).

The fact that Horroï AND Dragon both have trouble staying active in down-cycle seems to confirm common origin. That and the fact that their level of power and general appearance wasn't all that different in the first place and totally alien to other earthbound creature (dont talk but use telephathic, only living animal with 2 pair of members and wings, can adjust form and shape, loved to enslave and rule all other creature for their own sustenance and happiness, are totally alien to the human(and meta-human) way of thinking).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (10:19:59/05-25-12)
Dayheart was the first dragon. All-Wings was a very powerful great dragon long ago who broke with dragon tradition and raised her own eggs. Mountainshadow and Icewing were part of her last clutch of eggs. You'd know them better as Dunkelzhan and Ghostwalker, perhaps.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (13:36:38/05-25-12)
Both best known as "I-know-something-you-don't-know!" and "Come f#ck with me, please."
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (13:41:34/05-25-12)
Which brings up, again, the question of just what Ghostwalker was doing in the metaplanes for all that time.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (14:36:32/05-25-12)
Which brings up, again, the question of just what Ghostwalker was doing in the metaplanes for all that time.
Visiting his brother?

Dealing with supernatural horrors (Luckily not "Horrors"!) that would twist the minds of mere Metahumans were they to see them?

Getting Soykaff Latte that actually has some taste to it?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Nath on (16:00:55/05-25-12)
...or learning from masters shedim how to revive and regenerate a dead body.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: RelentlessImp on (16:27:12/05-25-12)
Getting Soykaff Latte that actually has some taste to it?

Did he bring back enough for everyone? He'll be rich!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (16:39:43/05-25-12)
Getting Soykaff Latte that actually has some taste to it?
Did he bring back enough for everyone? He'll be rich!
He's a dragon, he's already rich.

If he brought back how to make it, he'd be richER.  Especially with stores in Seattle!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (10:56:52/05-26-12)
"Meet the New Boss" (http://azziewatch.patrickgoodman.org/documents/mtnb-final.pdf) doesn't directly explain what he was doing in the metaplanes, but it did let Elissa and I play with the immortals a little bit, and that was always fun back in the day.

Note that this isn't official in any way, shape, or form; we tried to get it up as a web enhancement for Year of the Comet, but it never happened for reasons I don't care to speculate about.

EDIT: Man, it's amazing the typos you can discover by going back and re-reading something you hadn't looked at in four or five years....
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (12:01:00/05-26-12)
Good stuff.  I missed that bit the first time, I think PG.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (13:27:21/05-26-12)
Huh. Never seen that before, either.

Neat!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (14:55:57/05-26-12)
It was never actually released. I forgot about it for a while, and when I found it again, I asked Elissa if she had a problem releasing it into the wild. She didn't, so I made the PDF and posted it. Now I need to fix the typos....
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (15:40:09/05-26-12)
Before we return the thread to its topic...and we really should now...can one of the Acrobat geniuses around here get in touch with me privately? I'm having an issue with the typo-corrected PDF. Well, it's a problem with the original as well, now that I look at it again.

EDIT: Cancel the distress call. My issue, it turns out, was a font problem in the source doc. Fixed, fonts reformatted, typos corrected, and soon the corrected doc will be uploaded.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (22:08:04/05-26-12)
What are the chances of someone finding the Books of Harrow, or something like them?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (22:34:53/05-26-12)
Extremely slender.

One would sincerely hope.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (22:52:14/05-26-12)
Why? From what I remember about Earthdawn, the Books of Harrow is what allowed the Therans to create the Rites of Passage and Protection.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (23:17:36/05-26-12)
It's not out of the question that I'm rmemebering things wrong. You could very well be right
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (01:45:53/05-27-12)
Books survive time fairly well, but age isn't a good friend to them.

Tablets, now those are some good ways to keep things alive!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheNarrator on (03:15:11/05-27-12)
Regarding the Books of Harrow...

Quote
As part of his banishment, he is dispatched to a small monastery
set in the foothills of what areknown today as the Delaris Mountains,
in southeastern Barsaive.There, along with a cadre of scholars dedicated
to Mynbruje, the Passion of Knowledge, Messias works to recover,
translate, and transcribe volumes of books and scrolls recently recovered
from a nearby mountain cavern. The scholars believe this cache of
knowledge to be thousands upon thousands of years old, dating from
early in the time when the magical aura of our world still lay dormant,
before it rose to become the vibrant energy of our own time. What little
learned men had deciphered of the works prior to Messias' arrival
indicated that the documents spoke of an even older time, when the
world's aura was as strong as it is now.

Messias focuses on a group of six books barely kept intact by the
magic and climate of the cavern where they are stored. The six are a set,
matched in size and style,even down to the odd, blood-inscribed rune
on each of their covers. Messias can tell just by looking at them that
they contain powerful, probably dangerous, information. He also
believes them to be a warning, though against what, he does not know.
He devotes his life to untangling their secrets. In the end, those secrets
eagerly take the life he has offered.

Late one evening, some years later, his fellows discover his body
twisted and wracked with his dying agonies. Messias has torn his eyes
from his head and then thrust his clenched fists and their bloody
contents into the fire raging in the hearth of his quarters. He has also
left a brief note nearby. It says:

These are the Books of Harrow.
They are our doom and our salvation.
Learn from them, or we will all perish.


That night, something horrid stalks the corridors of the monastery,
and six of Messias' brethren die terribly. The next morning, an elder
elven scholar named Kearos Navarim takes the six Books of Harrow,
three of his fellow scholars, and ample provisions, and sets out on a
long journey to the land of his birth far to the south and west of
Barsaive. In that place, in the protection that he knows he can find
there, he intends to continue Messias' work and unlock the secrets of
the Books of Harrow.

So finding them would be good and bad. Good because it would give the Sixth World a heads-up on what's coming and some information on the powerful wards needed to keep them out. Bad because when you learn about Horrors... the Horrors learn about you.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (03:24:15/05-27-12)
I always wondered about what that Rites of Passage means. Rites of Protection is clear. but Passage...sounds like building a bridge i.e.  :P
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (08:55:31/05-27-12)
Indeed, Narrator. The Books of Harrow were artifacts left from the 2nd world, apparently, telling of the Horrors and the destruction they caused. And reading the books is apparently bad for your health, unless you've got protection.

There was something called the Book of Scales or something that was apparently made by Horrors, but I've only seen a couple references to it in the books I've read.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (13:11:09/05-27-12)
Keep in mind that the original books were over 5000 years old by the time Messias found them.  They would, in the 6th world, be well over 12,000 years old.  Very few things survive that long.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (13:17:57/05-27-12)
IDN. you know...there is always that "magic" thing
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (13:23:34/05-27-12)
They barely survived the first downcycle.  It is unlikely, given the amount of handling they recieved, that they would survive the second.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (14:15:09/05-27-12)
Quote
Messias works to recover, translate, and transcribe volumes of books and scrolls ...

The originals surviving?  Not likely.  Transcriptions?  Quite possibly, all things considered.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (15:19:24/05-27-12)
The originals surviving?  Not likely.  Transcriptions?  Quite possibly, all things considered.
*Chuckles*  I can just bet how some of the mistranslations are.  ;D
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (15:26:07/05-27-12)
The originals surviving?  Not likely.  Transcriptions?  Quite possibly, all things considered.
*Chuckles*  I can just bet how some of the mistranslations are.  ;D

Funny idea...whole "Namegivers" idea based on lingustics...then some parts of the pattern changed, evolved or "mutateted" while something got lost in the translation...the 6th world for sure never be tha same as the 4th :D

aven Horrorrs will be slightly different, when they got "translated" in english...you know...our darkest nightmares are hardly comparable with those from dawn of mankind...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (15:31:28/05-27-12)
our darkest nightmares are hardly comparable with those from dawn of mankind...
Maybe yours aren't.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (15:40:07/05-27-12)
yeah...living in the middle of Europe in the country occupied first by Nazis, who toke my grandfather to slave camp, then by russians, who plundered this country and those who disagree sent to uran mining camps or to russian gulags...two hours from Oświęcim (Auschwitz)...on the other side in the heart of civilized Europe, 23 yers of building some kind of "democracy" with closest real wildernes that took you more than week to pass...hmmm...I dont even know where to find it here...
But maybe living in Canada is a bit different, at least that wilderness is much closer ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (16:10:30/05-27-12)
I'm trying to get away from politics right now, and I was referring more to my imagination and overactive mind rather than personal history.  My dreams are pretty damned dark and full of monsters as well.

My nightmares...  I'm glad I don't remember.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (16:22:27/05-27-12)
OK, politics aside, I was talking about human bestiality and dangers that defines our ordinary days...being hit by car, raped, robbed, assaulted or confronted and threatened by HIV positive junkie wth the needle and his own blood as a weapon...or...if you live in less happy parts of this world, being enslaved, tortured or killed because of your believes, colour, name or just for fun.
Well, most risks and dangers we experience are those of human nature...and our worst enemy is another man. Not the beast, nor the nature...nor the darkness, winter cold, lack of food and water, unknown beasts lurjking in surrounding rainforrests, poisonnous spiders, insects and snakes on every step, lack of shelter.
World changed since 4000BC, it is much more confortable place, and our fears IMO changed with this world
on the other side
Some kind of primal fears encoded in our collective unconscious, archememes of human terror, are still there, unchanged.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Nath on (10:40:05/05-28-12)
It reminds me of discussions in the early days of the Shadowrun-Earthdawn connection. Some were wondering if Horrors and toxic spirits of man weren't the same thing. Horrors feed on pain, suffering, the dark side of humanity. People of the Fourth Age could not know about the other toxic spirits type because they weren't able to generate enough pollution to twist natural environments. Polluting human society, and the other hand, is possible without any technology.

But the idea hardly holds water anylonger (especially since the introduction of shadow spirits).

Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (10:47:02/05-28-12)
Shadows are beautifull. My favourite vilain, right after Shedim. But still, they are all just a Vanguards. Just a taste of things to come...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (12:17:15/05-28-12)
Just wait til Verjigorm shows up.

Even great dragons have boogeymen.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (13:15:34/05-28-12)
Yes, but Verjigorm has stats, so it can be killed.  ::)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheNarrator on (16:04:23/05-28-12)
.

But the idea hardly holds water anylonger (especially since the introduction of shadow spirits).


Seriously, the first time I read about Shadow Spirits in Street Magic, I was like, "Holy crap! Horrors! Small time, minor Horrors, but still... Horrors!"

Then Ghost Cartels revealed that tempo users are possessed by Shadow Spirits. And the Shadow Spirit can keep possessing them even if they stop taking the drug. They're never free of it. Like a Horror Mark....
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (16:10:01/05-28-12)
The means by which the shadow spirits possessed tempo users was by forcing a Spirit Pact (specifically a Dream Pact) with the victim. Not quite the same as horrors. But they are malevolent little buggers, yes.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (17:50:27/05-28-12)
Yes, but Verjigorm has stats, so it can be killed.  ::)
Yeah, sure, let me get Ghostwalker and Lofwyr on conference call to help out with that.

That'll raise our chances from nil to slim.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (18:45:31/05-28-12)
Precisely.  Verjigorm's stats are insane.  Not just the raw numbers, but the powers, abilities, and combinations thereof that are horrifying.  If the GM doesn't prep for at least an hour before a fight between Verj and his players, then the GM isn't using all of the Horror's abilities to the fullest.

So many of V's abilities require a bit of forethought that to just drop it down in front of your players is a waste of a good adversary.  With a tiny amount of planning, especially since fighting an entity as ancient and terrible as Verjigorm, a small group of players will get destroyed (TPK) within the first round.

There is a reason the recommended number of adepts to fight V is 25.  All of them 15th Circle (the highest, most brokenly powerful in ED).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (19:13:50/05-28-12)
How bad is this critter?  Lofwyr would let Harley ride him into battle without complaining.

...

Too much.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Crimsondude on (23:43:14/05-28-12)
.

But the idea hardly holds water anylonger (especially since the introduction of shadow spirits).


Seriously, the first time I read about Shadow Spirits in Street Magic, I was like, "Holy crap! Horrors! Small time, minor Horrors, but still... Horrors!"

Then Ghost Cartels revealed that tempo users are possessed by Shadow Spirits. And the Shadow Spirit can keep possessing them even if they stop taking the drug. They're never free of it. Like a Horror Mark....

:^:
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (01:16:41/05-29-12)
Wait. Verjigorma has Shadowrun Stats? I didnt think "it" even awakened in the 6th world
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: ElMorte on (04:57:22/05-29-12)
Wait. Verjigorma has Shadowrun Stats? I didnt think "it" even awakened in the 6th world

I think they refer to the ED-Stats.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (05:24:06/05-29-12)
I guess so ;)

And since it wasnt destroyed or killed during Earthdawn era, I dont think its end is near in Shadowrun...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheNarrator on (05:28:29/05-29-12)
It doesn't have SR stats that I know of, but it had stats in Earthdawn, and the equivalents can be roughly approximated to a degree. (The "step" rolled in Earthdawn is kinda sorta equivalent to the size of the dice pool in SR4: the Attribute adds an amount ranging from 1-7 for starting humans, and the skill/talent adds its rating.)

In which case, it has 38 dice for attack with damage 40, 34 dice to defense, an initiative of 35 with either 3 or 6 Initiative Passes, armor & mystic armor 40, Edge 20 (or Edge 50... depends on which Karma stat you consider equivalent to Edge), 40 dice for Spellcasting, all the spells of an 8th Circle Wizard (the highest level in the ED core book... Circles 9-15 were in the ED Companion), an ungodly number of boxes on its Damage Track... and that doesn't even begin to cover its Horror Powers, many of which have no SR equivalent:

Animate Dead = raises a corpse as a zombie on the spot
Corrupt Karma = you can't use your Edge
Curse Luck = reduces your dice rolls, similar to the Great Dragons' Twist Fate
Damage Shift = you take the damage that it was supposed to take
Horror Mark = it can track you anywhere forever until you kill the Horror, damage you from 10 miles away, enter your mind from 5,000 miles away
Horror Thread = the Horror can control you; Verjigorm has used this on the captured dragons it's spend millenia corrupting
Thought Worm = it telepathically enters your mind and plants a suggestion; if you refuse to obey, you take damage
Unnatural Life = raises a corpse from the grave, but this time the undead retains all the skills it had in life

The payoff for a group that actually managed to kill Verjigorm was 2,000,000 Legend Points. Which is about enough to given almost anyone an instant jump to "Living Legend/Figure of Myth" status.

Verjigorm intends to replace all sentient life on Earth with its own corrupted versions. It's been sitting out the Scourges to prapare for its next move for about 15,000 years.

We are not ready.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (05:32:10/05-29-12)
Yeah.
We need a fucking Naruto to beat this guy
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (06:27:01/05-29-12)
No, you need Naruto, Goku, Gandalf, and Elminster to team up. With some help from several great dragons.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (06:31:28/05-29-12)
:)
We would need a good Johnson to put that team together. Someone with connections in other dimensions. Maybe its time to call Skeeve and his team...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (12:23:37/05-29-12)
"Oz?"  "No relation."
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (13:18:40/05-29-12)
Like this?
Besides...that "Emerald city" part gain my attention to this series :P

Or you meant classics :)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: RelentlessImp on (14:55:45/05-29-12)
"Oz?"  "No relation."

Is it sad that I only found these books in the last year? They're so good.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (16:19:58/05-29-12)
Is it sad that I only found these books in the last year? They're so good.
No, it's sad that the series left on a cliffhanger for nearly a decade, finally started up again after the IRS had issues with Robert Asprin, and then he died.

...

What the hell is it with Government and writers?  The Secret Service and SJ Games, the IRS and Robert Asprin...  What's next, the Ministry of Indian Affairs and me?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (18:01:30/05-29-12)
Zomg did he finally settle the cliffhanger?  WHERE IS THAT BOOK??
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (18:42:10/05-29-12)
"Oz?"  "No relation."

Ah...after those other post I see it is something that was "lost in translation" :P
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (20:03:34/05-29-12)
Zomg did he finally settle the cliffhanger?  WHERE IS THAT BOOK??
At the book store.

You'll end up crying at the end.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: RelentlessImp on (14:05:45/05-30-12)
Is it sad that I only found these books in the last year? They're so good.
No, it's sad that the series left on a cliffhanger for nearly a decade, finally started up again after the IRS had issues with Robert Asprin, and then he died.

...

What the hell is it with Government and writers?  The Secret Service and SJ Games, the IRS and Robert Asprin...  What's next, the Ministry of Indian Affairs and me?

Either that or the Department of Foreign Relations and me.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: IKerensky on (12:18:24/06-13-12)
Just read Renraku Archology and frankly it connect very much to Parlainth Sourcebook, except for the maze part that is very close to the Artificier in Horrors.

It really reinforce my believing than Deep Resonance is Horrors in the Matrix, that have turned into a magical pattern. Technomancer are just technical adepts limited to this one brand new netherworld.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: ArkangelWinter on (17:27:58/06-13-12)
I think the Deep Resonance is more like a Passion, especially considering Harlequin wondering what "It" wants in an older book IIRC. The Dissonance might certainly be related to the Horrors, or be a Horror.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: IKerensky on (07:41:37/06-14-12)
Oups, you are right, I mixed both terms, I was actually thinking about dissonance.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sengir on (07:04:12/06-15-12)
Oups, you are right, I mixed both terms, I was actually thinking about dissonance.
Pax only turned to the Dissonance after breaking with Deus, and Deus was evil but not a Dissonant entity...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (07:25:41/06-15-12)
Well, if it helps muddy the waters any, I believe the original otaku were created by Mirage, the AI that grew out of the Echo Mirage program.

Also, Deus was what his creators forced him to be. I always saw him as a Magneto-style villain. The whole shutdown thing, and everything that happened later, was done for one simple reason: survival. Renraku did the equivalent of putting a kink bomb in his head, and what follows was Deus doing everything in its power to get rid of that kink bomb, and make sure that no one could ever do something like that to him again.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (08:40:52/06-15-12)
Agree.
And since Deus was the first of his own, you can almost consider him Child. Since his response for the situation was violent...and childish a bit...from strategic POV. Even if you consider Crash2.0 his original agenda behind shutdown, more intricate/subtle approach would provide him with more oportunities and much larger "lebensraum" at least IMO
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sengir on (09:09:25/06-15-12)
Well, if it helps muddy the waters any, I believe the original otaku were created by Mirage, the AI that grew out of the Echo Mirage program.
Mirage awakened in 2060, but the first (known) otaku already showed up in 205x at the Denver Nexus. Mirage and other AIs were capable of creating otaku, but they were not the creators...or at least never have been stated as such
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (10:21:31/06-15-12)
Well, Mirage spun out of the Echo Mirage and teh Crash Virus, so, he's been around for a while.

Deus is the most famous, obviously.

Morgan/Megera's the middle child.

There's also the mystery of Alice, who may be the first e-Ghost, but may also be the Crash Virus itself.

These days, of course, AIs are all over the place.There aren't, you know, MILLIONS, but there's considerable more than four.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (11:50:23/06-15-12)
AFAIK, Sengir, Mirage awakened long before 2060. It was shortly after the first Crash that he woke up, as a result of interacting with the Echo Mirage crowd.

Alice of Wonderland (formerly Alice Haefner) appeared to be an e-ghost, though could have been the Crash Virus 'imprinting' the real Alice's memories and personality on itself.

There are many more AIs around now, but most have nowhere near the godlike power of the original ones.

Crash 2.0 was never part of Deus's plan. With the Shutdown, his plan was to secure the SCIRE so that Renraku, when they realized he had woken up, couldn't activate the kill-switch in his head. Then, because his programming was physically tied to the SCIRE architecture, and needed a lot of memory space to contain, he set about creating the Network. All the experiments seeing how well metahumans could withstand brain damage? That's because he intended to use their brains as a kind of distributed network, allowing himself to escape the SCIRE matrix and recompile himself in the matrix at large.

Deus chose the ECSE because there was a massive amount of processing power there, and he believed that putting that much raw power (both in terms of processing power, and in terms of controlling the money of a good part of the world) would make him untouchable. Crash 2.0 was all Pax and Winternight's idea. Of course, if Deus is still around, everyone thinking he's dead, plus the emergence of other AIs, means he can 'rebrand' himself, and no one would know. Pulsar is definitely a very powerful AI, don't you think?

But yes, Deus's original plan lacked a certain finesse, and was more a reaction out of a sense of betrayal than carefully planned strategy. But he did show a remarkable learning curve as time went on.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (13:48:04/06-15-12)
All those rats...  I mean people, he put into mazes to learn how they dealt with problem solving.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: ArkangelWinter on (13:55:44/06-15-12)
The Deus/Pulsar angle is interesting. Is his rebranding part of a Magneto-esque anti-metahuman plot? Or did he grow up and realize he screwed up and is now trying to stop history from repeating itself? If the latter, will people believe him if he's exposed?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (15:27:19/06-15-12)
No one ever wonders what happened to Psychotrope. I always find that interesting.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (16:25:13/06-15-12)
I wouldn't say "No one," actually....
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (16:58:31/06-15-12)
The Deus/Pulsar angle is interesting. Is his rebranding part of a Magneto-esque anti-metahuman plot? Or did he grow up and realize he screwed up and is now trying to stop history from repeating itself? If the latter, will people believe him if he's exposed?
No, Deus doesn't have any particular anti-metahuman plots, as far as I know. If he's still around, now that no one is looking for him, I'd expect that his goals would have shifted into either securing a base of power to make sure no one could attack him again, or to take up a message of AI rights, and gather allies.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: ArkangelWinter on (17:23:38/06-15-12)
Which then leads to my second problem: who wod believe he wasnt evil if his identity were exposed?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (18:12:16/06-15-12)
First you'd have to get people to believe that the exposure wasn't a smear campaign. And that would not be as easy to do as you might think, especially with Pulsar having his own BTL tripchip out there...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: ChromeZephyr on (19:42:44/06-15-12)
As well as get over the difficulty of changing held beliefs in humans to begin with.  We're rather stubborn that way, I've noticed. ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (20:20:42/06-15-12)
No one ever wonders what happened to Psychotrope. I always find that interesting.
I wouldn't say "No one," actually....

Psychotrope was Mirage.  Mirage probably awakened by the late '40's, if not earlier; she was loaded onto what was probably the greatest concentration of processing power in the world for better than two years, and then continued to run pretty much non-stop on certain UCAS military, and then Fuchi, systems until, well ... probably until Crash 2.0.  So programmed before or during late 2029, product of the most brilliant programming minds of the day, experiencing close daily contact with human minds for at least two years, and run for decades afterwards.  Oh, and when her 'supervisor' disappeared during the Fuchi/Novatech upset, she knee-jerk-reaction created five otaku.  I also find it particularly telling that the very first otaku to Emerge 'just happened' to be on the site of the old US Air Force Academy.

If you don't think Mirage, or at least her 'subconscious', was the Deep Resonance ... you need some remedial work in pattern and plot recognition.  ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (21:13:15/06-15-12)
First you'd have to get people to believe that the exposure wasn't a smear campaign. And that would not be as easy to do as you might think, especially with Pulsar having his own BTL tripchip out there...

Now now, it's not a BTL ... that would be illegal and immoral and wrong! It's just a CalHot, totally legal inCalifornia and inside of Horizon facilities.You should try it out, see what the fuss isabout before saying bad things about it. Why, there just happens to be anavailable terminal and 'trode set open even now...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (04:54:17/06-16-12)
You guys kill me.  You should get together with the resident conspiracy theorists...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sengir on (08:29:01/06-16-12)
AFAIK, Sengir, Mirage awakened long before 2060. It was shortly after the first Crash that he woke up, as a result of interacting with the Echo Mirage crowd.
But after that it went dormant until 2060, what happened when it woke up is detailed in Psychotrope.


Ouroboros: Yes, Mirage created some otaku. Which were different from the "standard" otaku. Deus did the same, does that make him the Deep Resonance, too? ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Crimsondude on (10:55:30/06-16-12)
Oh, and when her 'supervisor' disappeared during the Fuchi/Novatech upset, she knee-jerk-reaction created five otaku.
And killed quite a few more people who couldn't accept the strain of her "outburst."
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (12:25:28/06-16-12)
You guys kill me.  You should get together with the resident conspiracy theorists...
Somebody call me?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (12:37:51/06-16-12)
Conspiracy theory?

Bah.

I'm a firm believer in Intelligent Defraudment.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (19:08:52/06-16-12)
AFAIK, Sengir, Mirage awakened long before 2060. It was shortly after the first Crash that he woke up, as a result of interacting with the Echo Mirage crowd.
But after that it went dormant until 2060, what happened when it woke up is detailed in Psychotrope.

Ouroboros: Yes, Mirage created some otaku. Which were different from the "standard" otaku. Deus did the same, does that make him the Deep Resonance, too? ;)

If Mirage/Psychotrope has a gender, it's probably 'she'.  That said ...

Sengir, I think you need to compare the two.  Deus took numerous minutes to deliberately create, one at a time, UV addicts who were greatly hindered if they went off his grid.  Mirage took five minutes to accidentally create five perfected otaku.  Which one do you think had more experience?  Which one do you think had been assembled at the most basic level of their code to interface with the human mind and correct 'deviations' in their thought processes?

Yes, as James points out, she directly killed and indirectly psychologically scarred a huge number of plugged-in people - and yet again, it's a twitch reaction.  If you don't want to believe the facts staring you in the face, that's fine by me; gives me lots of room for (hopefully) work in the future with Wakshaani, intelligently defrauding you.  :)  Betcha you're with Mirikon, trying to find Deus out there in Matrix 2.0 ...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (19:33:35/06-16-12)
Defraud is kind of a terrible word, isn't it?

But!

Bonus round!

Who were the five Perfect Otaku, and what wound up happening to each?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (19:39:11/06-16-12)
One of them was Hitomi Shiawase, and she's now Empress of Japan. Don't know the other four.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Crimsondude on (19:41:58/06-16-12)
Red Wraith (Amsterdam Fixer in Spy Games)

Bloodyguts (Killed by Deus' Whites in System Failure)

Dark Father (Killed by Deus' Whites in System Failure)

Lady Death (Hitomi Shiawase, the Empress of Japan and Chair of Shiawase)

Anubis (Last posted in Loose Alliances. Profiled in Target: Matrix)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (19:58:43/06-16-12)
Hangon. Hitomi's an Otaku? Egads! I'd missed this somehow.

Well now. That opens some interesting doors.

(Note to self: Pick up a copy of Psycotropeat the store  tomorrow.)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Crimsondude on (20:08:43/06-16-12)
You know the vampiric otaku/technomancer BFF of [Insert AAA CEO] blah blah blah super special ridiculous character concept people love to hate on?

That's Hitomi Shiawase.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (20:10:43/06-16-12)
Only now, the Empress of Japan.

Dude.

I might have a use for this.

(Mwu-hahahahahaa)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Crimsondude on (20:14:16/06-16-12)
And head of Shiawase.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (20:29:41/06-16-12)
And a technomancer.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (00:24:07/06-17-12)
See, I knew that she'd been a Shadowrunner and that her dad got her married to the Teen Emperor, hoping that the little hellion would settle down and bring honor to us all, but somehow I missed that she'd been Otaku.

That opens gates, it does.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (07:20:03/06-17-12)
Sengir, I think you need to compare the two.  Deus took numerous minutes to deliberately create, one at a time, UV addicts who were greatly hindered if they went off his grid.  Mirage took five minutes to accidentally create five perfected otaku.  Which one do you think had more experience?  Which one do you think had been assembled at the most basic level of their code to interface with the human mind and correct 'deviations' in their thought processes?
What the end user might consider a product flaw might, in the mind of the designer, be a product feature. Before the Shutdown, Deus had already had one of the otaku he'd drawn from the Matrix at large betray him. One way to keep your kiddies loyal is to ensure that, if they somehow break conditioning, they can't run away without losing most of their abilities.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sengir on (10:16:07/06-17-12)
Sengir, I think you need to compare the two.  Deus took numerous minutes to deliberately create, one at a time, UV addicts who were greatly hindered if they went off his grid.
See Mirikon. It's not a bug, it's a feature...

Quote
Mirage took five minutes to accidentally create five perfected otaku.  Which one do you think had more experience?  Which one do you think had been assembled at the most basic level of their code to interface with the human mind and correct 'deviations' in their thought processes?
I'd content Deus' brainwashing and mind control techniques were far more advanced than anything Mirage could come up with. She could repair damage caused to nodes of the Network, but never could have done something similar herself. With all the resources Deus had at his disposal Mirage could certainly have drawn level, but she/it didn't have those resources.

I would also doubt the "accidental" bit. I'm pretty sure the five Mirage Otaku are specifically given this "gift".

Lastly, all the allusions you claim to be hard facts are from a single source: A novel. While technically novels are canon, they often take more than just a few liberties with setting and mechanics. I recall one novel where a character can suddenly jump crazy high because he activated his Wired Reflexes...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: freddieflatline on (22:29:16/06-17-12)
Sengir, I think you need to compare the two.  Deus took numerous minutes to deliberately create, one at a time, UV addicts who were greatly hindered if they went off his grid.
See Mirikon. It's not a bug, it's a feature...

Quote
Mirage took five minutes to accidentally create five perfected otaku.  Which one do you think had more experience?  Which one do you think had been assembled at the most basic level of their code to interface with the human mind and correct 'deviations' in their thought processes?
I'd content Deus' brainwashing and mind control techniques were far more advanced than anything Mirage could come up with. She could repair damage caused to nodes of the Network, but never could have done something similar herself. With all the resources Deus had at his disposal Mirage could certainly have drawn level, but she/it didn't have those resources.

I would also doubt the "accidental" bit. I'm pretty sure the five Mirage Otaku are specifically given this "gift".

Lastly, all the allusions you claim to be hard facts are from a single source: A novel. While technically novels are canon, they often take more than just a few liberties with setting and mechanics. I recall one novel where a character can suddenly jump crazy high because he activated his Wired Reflexes...

AHHHHHH! You said the B word!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Xzylvador on (14:47:22/06-18-12)
... 'Because' ?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (15:13:34/06-18-12)
I know it is unlikely to happen, but what would the result be if a horror was invested with a bug?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: ChromeZephyr on (16:15:40/06-18-12)
Is that even possible?  I dearly hope not, if only for the setting's sake.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheNarrator on (16:22:05/06-18-12)
If anything, I'd think that the Horror would wind up possessing the bug.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (16:36:32/06-18-12)
hmmm..I dont think that itr is possible for spirit to posess another spirit, but Horrors are possibly something different...do you think dragon can end up posessed by Invae?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (18:36:18/06-18-12)
Only now, the Empress of Japan.

Dude.

I might have a use for this.

Oi!  Hands off Hitomi, I've already got plans on her!!

What the end user might consider a product flaw might, in the mind of the designer, be a product feature. Before the Shutdown, Deus had already had one of the otaku he'd drawn from the Matrix at large betray him. One way to keep your kiddies loyal is to ensure that, if they somehow break conditioning, they can't run away without losing most of their abilities.

Very true, and I agree - probably deliberate, considering how well (or rather, how poorly) our little ronin otaku turned out.

Quote from: The Wyrm Ouroboros
Mirage took five minutes to accidentally create five perfected otaku.  Which one do you think had more experience?  Which one do you think had been assembled at the most basic level of their code to interface with the human mind and correct 'deviations' in their thought processes?
I'd content Deus' brainwashing and mind control techniques were far more advanced than anything Mirage could come up with. She could repair damage caused to nodes of the Network, but never could have done something similar herself. With all the resources Deus had at his disposal Mirage could certainly have drawn level, but she/it didn't have those resources.

Pretty sure you mean 'contend' there, so I'll presume that.

I think you confuse 'could have' with 'would have'.  Mirage was specifically designed, programmed, and used to correct extreme psychological imbalances within the individuals with whom she had contact.  To do so, she had a wide array of techniques and programs available to her, probably including ones derived directly from the first Crash Virus.  To use human terms, her psychology was to help people, even if her techniques and technology was able to do much more - and much worse.

Quote
I would also doubt the "accidental" bit. I'm pretty sure the five Mirage Otaku are specifically given this "gift".

Lastly, all the allusions you claim to be hard facts are from a single source: A novel. While technically novels are canon, they often take more than just a few liberties with setting and mechanics. I recall one novel where a character can suddenly jump crazy high because he activated his Wired Reflexes...

The 'accidental' part comes from the novel; go re-read it, and you'll see specifically why it's those five who aren't affected by the intense psychological trauma that everyone else jacked in at the time was.  They weren't planned; they 'simply' had an outlook on life, reflected in their iconography, that enabled them to cope with what was basically sudden major thanatopic psychological trauma - 'Hi, you're gonna die right now!!"

The allusions I claim as hard facts don't just come from the novel, however; they also come from myriad non-novel game resources that accept the novel as canonical.  As well, your argument is logically flawed; we are not talking about 'all the novels', we are speaking specifically about this one, Psychotrope, which really doesn't play much with any of the mechanics, excluding the 'otaku who don't Fade' thing -- which fact didn't even get revealed until much later, through means undoubtedly more acceptable to you.

I can't quote them all; I wouldn't hunt them down for you if I could.  Like the reasons why Deus shut the Renraku Seattle Arcology down in the first place, like what's happened to the Three Pre-Crash-2 AIs, the information is in there.  It's just a matter of knowing how to look at it.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sengir on (06:21:34/06-19-12)
I think you confuse 'could have' with 'would have'.
Irrelevant. If some meek basement dweller had exercised more, he could have been Mr. Universe. Maybe he even had the perfect prerequisites and most certainly would have been Mr. Universe. But point is he didn't and thus is not Mr. Universe and nobody knows for certain what would have happened if he had exercised more.


Quote
The 'accidental' part comes from the novel; go re-read it, and you'll see specifically why it's those five who aren't affected by the intense psychological trauma that everyone else jacked in at the time was.  They weren't planned; they 'simply' had an outlook on life, reflected in their iconography, that enabled them to cope with what was basically sudden major thanatopic psychological trauma - 'Hi, you're gonna die right now!!"
The question is not whether the choice of "subjects" was accidental. The question is whether Mirage gave them their Otaku abilities subconsciously in his/her/its wakeup hangover, or was like "sorry for the fuss and thanks for your help, here, have something for your troubles".

Quote
The allusions I claim as hard facts don't just come from the novel, however; they also come from myriad non-novel game resources that accept the novel as canonical.
...
I can't quote them all; I wouldn't hunt them down for you if I could.
In other words, you claim something but don't want to give sources. Invisible pink unicorns...

By the way Jay Levine offering his views on the matter (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34097&view=findpost&p=1034814)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: ArkangelWinter on (12:04:48/06-19-12)
Sengir, the novel implies Mirage's "gift" was an accident. The could have/would have argument is NOT irrelevant. Mirage (like all AIs) was incapable psychologically of even attempting half of Deus' actions because it was more closely tied to its original programming.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (18:15:20/06-19-12)
Christ, Sengir, you're worse than a politician during election season.

I think you confuse 'could have' with 'would have'.
Irrelevant. If some meek basement dweller had exercised more, he could have been Mr. Universe. Maybe he even had the perfect prerequisites and most certainly would have been Mr. Universe. But point is he didn't and thus is not Mr. Universe and nobody knows for certain what would have happened if he had exercised more.

Again, you use erroneous logic - an incorrect analogy in this case.  Two people walk down the same street; both are armed with .45s.  One nods to everyone, and helps out a couple teenagers; the other one pulls the .45 and puts two rounds into the two teenagers.  Does this make the fact that the first one - the cop - could have done it any different than the fact that the second one - the gangsta - actually did do it??  Both of them are equipped with the same items; the cop may actually have more training in his weapon.  That he does not does not mean he cannot, it means that he chooses not to.

The 'accidental' part comes from the novel; go re-read it, and you'll see specifically why it's those five who aren't affected by the intense psychological trauma that everyone else jacked in at the time was.  They weren't planned; they 'simply' had an outlook on life, reflected in their iconography, that enabled them to cope with what was basically sudden major thanatopic psychological trauma - 'Hi, you're gonna die right now!!"
The question is not whether the choice of "subjects" was accidental. The question is whether Mirage gave them their Otaku abilities subconsciously in his/her/its wakeup hangover, or was like "sorry for the fuss and thanks for your help, here, have something for your troubles".

If that is truly your question, then in that case, no, I don't have an absolute answer for you.  My read on that particular situation, however, is that in either case Mirage had perfected the means to instill otaku abilities in another - and if it's as fast as 'oops, sorry, here, have this' in the last microseconds, it's even more impressive than simply doing it five times in as many minutes.  It would also re-emphasize the point that Mirage had the ability, and had refined it to be able to perform it at incredible speed, as compared to Deus.

The allusions I claim as hard facts don't just come from the novel, however; they also come from myriad non-novel game resources that accept the novel as canonical.
...
I can't quote them all; I wouldn't hunt them down for you if I could.
In other words, you claim something but don't want to give sources. Invisible pink unicorns...

By the way Jay Levine offering his views on the matter (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34097&view=findpost&p=1034814)

Yes, yes.  No, I claim something that's been written about by people, including Jason - which views, note, fairly well back up what I've stated - and which you can go back and re-read all you want.  I'm not willing to do it because I've got better things, like writing, to do with my time instead of kow-towing to your demand for information that's already in your hands, especially when you're a pugnacious debater who is pretty blatantly unlikely to change your declared viewpoint, even if it was written canonically in short, definite sentences.

So sure, invisible pink unicorns.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (03:17:30/06-20-12)
Oh come on guys...
1) Since Im doing a lot of mistakes in my english, and misusing could have and would have is almost for sure one of them, Im learning from ya ;)
2) Well I dont see how exactly is your debate connected with the topic: Horrors
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (09:08:17/06-20-12)
Yeah, we have kinda drifted way away from the topic of the thread, haven't we?

Hrm.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (10:41:14/06-20-12)
Only if:

invisible pink unicorns.

is a spoiler of nasty things to come :)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (11:38:06/06-20-12)
Don't tempt me. The reign of Princess Celestia, Tyrant of the Sun, will be one as brutal as it is pastel.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: IKerensky on (11:43:02/06-20-12)
Only if:

invisible pink unicorns.

is a spoiler of nasty things to come :)

Well that sure bod of unearthly horrors, as nothing from this dimension could be both invisible and pink...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (14:54:06/06-20-12)
well played sir
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sengir on (06:22:55/06-21-12)
Two people walk down the same street; both are armed with .45s.
And here your analogy already falls apart: Deus and Mirage did not have the same equipment. Deus had an arcology full of guinea pigs and experimented on them to the fullest extent. Mirage never had such resources, hence the question of what she could have learned/developed is pure conjecture. It's the fictional equivalent of "what if Hitler had taken Moscow" -- nobody knows for sure, and whatever hypothesis comes up can't even be reasonably falsified.


Quote
and if it's as fast as 'oops, sorry, here, have this' in the last microseconds, it's even more impressive than simply doing it five times in as many minutes.
Your original claim was that Mirage somehow made the five Otaku  subconsciously. That would indeed imply a very strong connection to the Resonance, whereas consciously deciding "okay, I'm going to make them Otaku" is something Deus could have done, too. How fast Deus could have done it is tricky to answer, since he always coupled creating Otaku with a massive brainwashing.


Quote
No, I claim something that's been written about by people, including Jason - which views, note, fairly well back up what I've stated
Jay (I'm assuming you meant him) explicitly stated in that thread that "Mirage is very likely not the Deep Resonance" in that thread...


Oh, and the invisible pink unicorn of course is magic a magic unicorn, so it can totally be both invisible and pink.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: RelentlessImp on (23:01:41/06-23-12)
Don't tempt me. The reign of Princess Celestia, Tyrant of the Sun, will be one as brutal as it is pastel.

Sonic Rainbooms will end the reign of the Tyrant. Mark my words.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Gideon on (17:50:33/07-09-12)
As far as Horror getting a hook into the world in 2070s?  I think the magical whatsis in Bottled Demon was an old artifact from the previous world which "awakened" as magic rose.  What is to say that another Horror designed artifact (not marked, as they fade with time if not revisited by the Horror), could be brought in to allow a Horror shaman/Blood shaman to create a basic construct of a Horror's?  Now a an army of cyber zombies could be created (really Cadaver Men) to help the Azzies put down the Orange Queen's forces and a whole future threat of a Horror tainted Nation gains a step forward to total doom!  Yea!

OR someone could stop them I guess... ;D

Also I should mention that it is suggested in the Tir Tairngire book that the Crater Lake area is being contained by a Mana Drain.  And the Earthdawn book introducing Aina and the SR references hints that this is what keeps the bridge closed in 2050s.  So army of Cadaver men could liberate the Lake and we can begin the first civil war in Tir!  Yea! (wait that might be bad)

I bring up Crater Lake since it has a very high Mana level and dropping the mana levels is what contains the Horror cross-over.

Also looking in my critter lists, Rockworms, not Horrors, but they EAT rocks and concrete.  Might give a baseline for Gnasher powers.

Love this thread, love this game.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Crimsondude on (18:42:36/07-09-12)
There's a reason I called it the Psychic Highway to Hell.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: DarkLloyd on (15:33:39/07-10-12)
As far as Horror getting a hook into the world in 2070s? I think the magical whatsis in Bottled Demon was an old artifact from the previous world which "awakened" as magic rose.  What is to say that another Horror designed artifact (not marked, as they fade with time if not revisited by the Horror), could be brought in to allow a Horror shaman/Blood shaman to create a basic construct of a Horror's?  Now a an army of cyber zombies could be created (really Cadaver Men) to help the Azzies put down the Orange Queen's forces and a whole future threat of a Horror tainted Nation gains a step forward to total doom!  Yea

Another one of those has been featured in the '09 Gencon SR Tourney.  Don't know how Canonical that was, it was supposed to be mentioned in the Seattle 2072 book at least the big explosion that happened was. But I can tell you the object activated a gate that let a Horror come thru. After it went down and we had a visit from Ghostwalker and Arleesh.
Like I said no Idea if that was just a one-off, but we were told it would get a mention. Still waiting on that one to get released so I can buy it.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (19:15:45/07-10-12)
They seriously need to release that adventure. Like, yesterday!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheNarrator on (22:46:42/07-10-12)
Another one of those has been featured in the '09 Gencon SR Tourney.  Don't know how Canonical that was, it was supposed to be mentioned in the Seattle 2072 book at least the big explosion that happened was. But I can tell you the object activated a gate that let a Horror come thru. After it went down and we had a visit from Ghostwalker and Arleesh.
Like I said no Idea if that was just a one-off, but we were told it would get a mention. Still waiting on that one to get released so I can buy it.

Yeah, I totally need that. For a chance at some SR4 Horror stats, if nothing else. It sounds like exactly what I need for my campaign.



On the subject of Horrors, there was some discussion lately about people from the Fourth World that might have survived into the Sixth, and it reminded me of something I'd wondered about in the past....

...You don't suppose Chantrel might still be around, do you?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (22:49:23/07-10-12)
...You don't suppose Chantrel might still be around, do you?
Oh. Oh my. She could be, yeah. There are plenty of isolated places where someone who didn't want to get involved with people could hide out. The question is, however, whether her Horror was powerful enough to exist in this world through the downtime, and whether if it was booted back to its metaplane, whether the link keeping her alive would still function.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mason on (08:05:33/07-12-12)
A Horror shaman

Oh...My...GAWD! I don't even want to think about that concept even slightly!

No, you need Naruto, Goku, Gandalf, and Elminster to team up. With some help from several great dragons.
We would need a good Johnson to put that team together. Someone with connections in other dimensions. Maybe its time to call Skeeve and his team...

No, see, to take out old V, you need (in absolutely no real order):
Chuck Norris
Naruto and all the Kage and Jounin
The entire cast of Bleach
Batman and Robin, Superman, Spiderman, the Incredible Hulk, and all the X-Men
All the Pokemon, ever (Gotta catch 'em all!)
Abraham Lincoln, Vampire hunter
Elminster and Mystra herself
Richard Rahl and Zeddicus Z'ul Zorander
Some schmuck with a magic sword, probably half-elven and adopted (hehe, Brooks)
All the DBZ cast that is not currently constipated
Sparkly vampires (the meat shield, of course)
Optimus Prime and the Transformers
King Arthur and ALL the Knights of the Round Table, and Merlin himself
All the Gum-Gum Fruits
Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, Jet Li, Steven Seagal, and all the other martial artist movie guys
Will Smith in an alien spaceship
Indiana Jones
All the Street Samurai trolls armed with gyromounted miniguns, ever
Gandalf, both Gray AND White
A casting line of 25 experienced Grade 5 initiate shadowrunners specialized in manabolts
Harry Dresden and friends
All of M.Y.T.H Inc.
Ender Wiggin believing this is all a simulation
Robocop riding the security bot with the minigun
Bill S. Preston and Theadore Logan, and their time machine
All the Terminators
Captain Kirk and Jean-Luc Picard wielding triple lightsabers next to martial artist adept Spock
Darth Vader and all the other Jedi and Sith
Every single Power Ranger

Even then, you could have some difficulties.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (11:15:51/07-12-12)
Harry Fraggin' Dresden.

EDIT:  With Mouse.  And possibly his Brother.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mason on (13:30:30/07-13-12)
Yeah, that was in my list. Sorry.

Though, he probably bears repeating.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Zilfer on (19:11:25/07-13-12)
Ender Wiggin.... Fuck yeah. Throw in Peter Wiggin and Bean, and you've got something that would give even the horror's pause. I think. :D
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (15:25:47/07-14-12)
Assuming he's by himself and not attended by his corrupted dragon servants.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Malathis on (12:41:47/07-16-12)
Mr Rogers in a blood stained sweater
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: ArkangelWinter on (12:48:56/07-16-12)
Mr Rogers in a blood stained sweater

+1 to you sir...surprised people remember that video
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (18:33:06/07-16-12)
The first one, hopefully not the second.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mason on (19:47:27/07-16-12)
Mr Rogers in a blood stained sweater

+1 to you sir...surprised people remember that video

I pulled a lot of my list from that video, but I omitted Mr. Rogers 'cuz I thought it silly. The video was cool, but....
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (13:37:29/10-07-12)
A comment on Verjigorm which I made that outraged a few hardcore ED fans: "It seems that he isn't that scary, after all..." Why? He doesn't seem to have the Terrify power. :P

But seriously, Verjigorm stats are as old as Earthdawn itself. And they were written well before the Horrors book, which tells us that 'The Dark One' has made all the Horrors, first dragon including. I'd say those stats are rubbish, if that's even partially true. Besides, the above joke is partially true, since there are worse thing in the book. Like Ristul, which is Corruption itself, and Metahumanity already managed to invite him a little bit by poisoning the astral with their actions.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (13:21:57/10-08-12)
Ristul is nasty, but actually simpler to deal with than Verjigorm.

Ristul's pawns get a free hive-mind-like link to each other, and the ability to corrupt those who are willing (coercion works, here), but other than that they aren't that much more powerful than the original namegivers that Ristul corrupted.

Ristul is great for making that horrid OMG it could be ANYONE kind of cult.

Killing off all the corrupted ones, thus banishing Ristul from the world, is actually pretty simple compared to dealing with Verjigorm.  (Remember that simple =/= easy.)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (14:44:11/10-08-12)
Well, since Ristul is corruption itself, I wouldn't say so. As long as there's enough corruption, he can do his thing. And AFAIR it was hinted, that he's not an entity like most horrors, but something akin to a semi-sentient force of 'un-nature'.

Anyway, arguing over the top Horrors is kinda pointless, since they're waaay out of any league worth playing.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (11:48:42/10-09-12)
The Master Circles of Earthdawn can deal with these guys.  It is quite conceivable that a group of Masters would be able to break Ristul's hold on this world and banish/destroy/make-a-puppet-of it and then sic it on the other Horrors.

A single group of Masters vs. Verjigorm?  Blown away.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (12:00:07/10-09-12)
All I have to say is this: Verjigorm makes Ghostwalker very, very nervous. And the only reason I don't go farther than that is because I don't want to get eaten.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (15:47:14/10-10-12)
All I have to say is this: Verjigorm makes Ghostwalker very, very nervous. And the only reason I don't go farther than that is because I don't want to get eaten.

...or hired by some IE lunatic, as I`ve heard recently...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (20:42:03/10-10-12)
...IE lunatic ...

Sichr, you're repeating yourself.  ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (21:04:01/10-10-12)
Now, now. Most of the Immortal Elves aren't lunatics. Some are narcissists, some are power-mad, some want to rule the world, some...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Ethan on (12:31:20/10-11-12)
Now, now. Most of the Immortal Elves aren't lunatics. Some are narcissists, some are power-mad, some want to rule the world, some...

... just want to watch the world burn?

Just a question folks: is there a summary of Earthdawn plots/stories somewhere? I'm just trying to piece together the manacycle thing, and I recall reading that it was the Dragons' fault that Horrors existed and it was so catastrophic that it caused mana to wax and wane.

Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (12:38:30/10-11-12)
Ancient's Files: http://danvolodar.ru/ancientfiles/index.html

And it's the other way around - The Dark One (supposedly Verjigorm) created the Horrors, and by accident the first dragon. It was the dragon that created the namegivers. At least that's the story from the Horrors book... The mana cycle was supposed to be natural, I think.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Ethan on (12:57:59/10-11-12)
That history's in there? I've been (unsuccessfully) poking around it.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (13:34:01/10-11-12)
Various bits-and-pieces all around it. You can start with the "Shadowrun/Earthdawn Crossovers", and "Immortals Elves and Great Dragons". There's also some stuff in the SR Wiki.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (17:51:23/10-11-12)
...IE lunatic ...

Sichr, you're repeating yourself.  ;)

like every immortal lunatic does ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (17:53:08/10-11-12)
Ancient's Files: http://danvolodar.ru/ancientfiles/index.html

And it's the other way around - The Dark One (supposedly Verjigorm) created the Horrors, and by accident the first dragon. It was the dragon that created the namegivers. At least that's the story from the Horrors book... The mana cycle was supposed to be natural, I think.

And if I read mountainshadow corectly, the first dragon was the one with white scales etc...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (07:00:57/10-12-12)
Yes, in contrast to The Dark One and the Horroi (Horrors). It might be a storytelling trick, or it might be true. I should check out the ED1 Dragons book, to find out.

EDIT: It seems I no longer have the book. Oh, well. I'll bet someone else does and is willing to check that part out.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (10:22:08/10-12-12)
I'm pretty sure I've got it lying around somewhere, Kot; when I find it, I'll throw it up on Azziewatch and post a link.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (12:29:39/10-12-12)
Let us know here when you do, I'd like to go look-see.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (12:49:31/10-12-12)
Sure thing. It won't be for a couple weeks at least, though; I've got a couple of paying gigs that I have to pay attention to since I've kind of blown one deadline and another is...looming.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Ethan on (13:04:51/10-12-12)
There's actually an Earthdawn book (the GM book I think) on Google Books and I read that bit about Verjigorm... and how the first dragon was a mutated horror.

I must have confused All-Wings and the deliberate act of turning down the mana level with something else.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (15:22:20/10-12-12)
This one?
https://rapidshare.com/files/2982429620/EDDragons.pdf
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Patrick Goodman on (15:23:42/10-12-12)
That's the one I've got, Sichr. You've saved me time and effort, and I thank you for it.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (15:33:23/10-12-12)
You deserve nothing less.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Parker on (18:02:51/12-11-12)
Okay........What about the hint in Dunkelzhan's Will about how dragons were alien?  That could make a better plot device.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Kot on (16:06:28/12-13-12)
Okay........What about the hint in Dunkelzhan's Will about how dragons were alien?  That could make a better plot device.
They're Horrors themselves actually. Read the conversation above. :P
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (16:59:20/12-13-12)
Or better, read the Dragons of the 4th world sourcebook :)
link you can possibly find...above :)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (06:46:54/12-18-12)
All I have to say is this: Verjigorm makes Ghostwalker very, very nervous. And the only reason I don't go farther than that is because I don't want to get eaten.

...or hired by some IE lunatic, as I`ve heard recently...

Wait. WHAT?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Micawber on (12:06:52/01-02-13)
And if I read mountainshadow corectly, the first dragon was the one with white scales etc...

It's not quite clear if Nightslayer or Dayheart should be considered the 'first Dragon'. Nightslayer was made by Verjigorm and therefore per definition a Horoi but the first of his nine tears turned into the first (second?) real dragon. The other eight turned into the 'young races' or 'namegiver' races.

As of now I haven't found any clue on Dayhearts coloration though white would be a good guess. Nightslayer was coloured like the nightsky and therefore a very very dark blue.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Aryeonos on (16:15:37/02-01-13)
My take is that it's close to the Cthulhu mythos, every horror is different. Different in appearance, attitude and hunger. And frag if I don't won't to run into something that scares the drek out of Lofwyr.

I'm gonna shoot it.

Though, upon reading Gun nut's description, it would appear Horror's are parasitic netherworld imps at best, and Incubi (Ala Ink) at worst. I'm probably lacking perspective on these things, but is their real threat from shear numbers over their individual strength? Don't get me wrong, some of these sound, bad. But so do toxic and insect spirits.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (17:59:20/02-01-13)
My take is that it's close to the Cthulhu mythos, every horror is different. Different in appearance, attitude and hunger. And frag if I don't won't to run into something that scares the drek out of Lofwyr.

I'm gonna shoot it.

Though, upon reading Gun nut's description, it would appear Horror's are parasitic netherworld imps at best, and Incubi (Ala Ink) at worst. I'm probably lacking perspective on these things, but is their real threat from shear numbers over their individual strength? Don't get me wrong, some of these sound, bad. But so do toxic and insect spirits.
You're very, very wrong. To tell you how wrong you are, I'll just point out that the insect spirits are just as scared of Horrors as you should be. Why? Because Horrors never get full. They're always looking for new prey, and spirits of all types are perfectly acceptable food for them.

Some horrors are relatively weak except when present in groups (of course, those ones tend to be found in swarms, so...), but the stronger horrors are the kinds that make the Balrog in the Fellowship of the Ring look cute and cuddly. Beyond their abilities (which are extensive, and sometimes so subtle you won't notice until it is too late), their presence corrupts the astral plane for centuries. If you are Marked by a Horror, then that Horror can control you, and it makes you susceptible to control from other Horrors as well. And this is just the unNamed horrors. Named Horrors are on another level altogether, much like how immortal elves and great dragons are on a different level. Among these Named Horrors, there are ones that cannot be defeated unless you kill the 7 or so people scattered around the world that it has marked, ones that kill anyone their chosen prey has gotten close to, and ones that the very mention of their Names sends Immortal Elves and Great Dragons into a panic. Let us be perfectly clear. There are Horrors that even Ghostwalker, who is almost certainly the strongest Great Dragon at this point, both in his personal abilities and his use of spirits, would turn tail and flee from at the rumor of Its coming, rather than defend even his most prized lair.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Aryeonos on (18:30:53/02-01-13)
You don't have to make it personal, if  you didn't know, I'm actually quite out of the loop on everything magical related in shadowrun. My solution would be shoot it, in game, because I would know even less in character. So yeah, the horrors sound bad, I get that.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: RHat on (19:34:19/02-01-13)
You don't have to make it personal, if  you didn't know, I'm actually quite out of the loop on everything magical related in shadowrun. My solution would be shoot it, in game, because I would know even less in character. So yeah, the horrors sound bad, I get that.

The major Horror's are individually powerful enough to scare the living hell out of all the greats and IE's.  They even corrupted some Passions (read: gods) as I understand it.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Aryeonos on (19:48:22/02-01-13)
Neat, so they're Incubi with large collared capes then?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: RHat on (19:55:03/02-01-13)
Neat, so they're Incubi with large collared capes then?

I'm not sure if the major Horrors even have defined forms.  And no, they're not Incubi - they feed off of specific forms of pain and suffering at that point; such as the one that got an entire city full of people to slaughter each other.

Of course, I have purely second-hand information.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Aryeonos on (02:05:45/02-02-13)
Capes with big collars is just a trope of extra evil characters, like Nosforatu and the like, and I'm thinking more of the incubi from Ink. They would rearrange your life, at multiple points in time simultaneously so you would fall to them after you die. Which sounds like what some of these Horrors can do, though I'm not sure about the quantum time travel, existing in multiple time spaces thing bit.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: RHat on (02:12:09/02-02-13)
Capes with big collars is just a trope of extra evil characters, like Nosforatu and the like, and I'm thinking more of the incubi from Ink. They would rearrange your life, at multiple points in time simultaneously so you would fall to them after you die. Which sounds like what some of these Horrors can do, though I'm not sure about the quantum time travel, existing in multiple time spaces thing bit.

They corrupt the living into serving them.  Death is not part of the general equation.  They don't need to rearrange your life, either.

The level of operation your talking about is mostly possible in the current mana level.  The Horrors can't enter the world until near the peak, because that's how much power they have.  They are far, far, far, far, far beyond that kind of power.  If they somehow showed up in 2075, that's it for absolutely everything on Earth and every nearby metaplane - and only the lucky ones would be dead.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Aryeonos on (03:05:21/02-02-13)
That sounds pretty apocalyptic, I mean, what's the point of introducing a force like that? That doesn't seem like anything all the runners in the world could appose, as if the corporate back ally dealings and organ leggers weren't abysmal enough. I mean, there's the sun will blow up in a few billion years, but in just a few hundred HP Lovecraft shows up and kills everyone from here to parallel neptune, and there's nothin you can do about it. Why do that?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Longshot23 on (03:54:08/02-02-13)
That sounds pretty apocalyptic, I mean, what's the point of introducing a force like that? That doesn't seem like anything all the runners in the world could appose, as if the corporate back ally dealings and organ leggers weren't abysmal enough. I mean, there's the sun will blow up in a few billion years, but in just a few hundred HP Lovecraft shows up and kills everyone from here to parallel neptune, and there's nothin you can do about it. Why do that?

On a run-to-run level, nobody knows about it.

On a metaplot/game design level, it's a signpost.  Way, way, WAY down the road.   No runner 'currently' alive will live to see IF it happens, even if they die of old age.

It's debatable whether it actually has been introduced at all.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: RHat on (04:14:59/02-02-13)
That sounds pretty apocalyptic, I mean, what's the point of introducing a force like that? That doesn't seem like anything all the runners in the world could appose, as if the corporate back ally dealings and organ leggers weren't abysmal enough. I mean, there's the sun will blow up in a few billion years, but in just a few hundred HP Lovecraft shows up and kills everyone from here to parallel neptune, and there's nothin you can do about it. Why do that?

There's a couple old adventures about people trying to bring them through early (Harlequin stuff, I think; pretty sure that was why the Big D arranged his death at the time and in the manner he did), and a of indications that the Azzies might be doing something like that, but any interference aside it's centuries off.  For the most part, all it currently affects is the long game of the great dragons and immortal elves.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (04:38:05/02-02-13)
That sounds pretty apocalyptic, I mean, what's the point of introducing a force like that? That doesn't seem like anything all the runners in the world could appose, as if the corporate back ally dealings and organ leggers weren't abysmal enough. I mean, there's the sun will blow up in a few billion years, but in just a few hundred HP Lovecraft shows up and kills everyone from here to parallel neptune, and there's nothin you can do about it. Why do that?

Apocalyptic. Yes. Last time Horrors wlak the Earth, it was called Scourge.Those in underground vaults had been living in fear for centuries, and the surface was wiped ou of living beings, with a few exceptios (read Thorn Elves IMO). Yeah. That sounds pretty apocalyptic.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Aryeonos on (04:59:31/02-02-13)
I dunno, I've always hated literary ... tropes, cliches, some word like that - for, the bad shit comes, and everyone was helpless and there's nothing you can possibly do because they have this and this and this, Kind of stuff. Probably why I hate GW fluff so much. I mean, it doesn't even sound like point for all the corps to unite (Except Aztechnology) to stop it kind of thing, but I mean, they might not be around in 400 years or however long it will be.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (06:04:53/02-02-13)
Corps united front heh. That sounds almost like Great Dragons united.
Read: Not going to happen :p
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: RHat on (06:19:12/02-02-13)
I dunno, I've always hated literary ... tropes, cliches, some word like that - for, the bad shit comes, and everyone was helpless and there's nothing you can possibly do because they have this and this and this, Kind of stuff. Probably why I hate GW fluff so much. I mean, it doesn't even sound like point for all the corps to unite (Except Aztechnology) to stop it kind of thing, but I mean, they might not be around in 400 years or however long it will be.

Tropes are not cliches - they're literary tools, and it falls to the writer to use them well.  There is no work that does not contain any trope, intentionally or otherwise.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Aryeonos on (06:26:25/02-02-13)
I couldn't think of the right literary term, that's why I threw a couple out there. But if you order now, in just a few thousand years, Harlequin will save us all apparently.

This summer, one man against .... The Horrors ! In a trideo theatre near you!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (08:00:19/02-02-13)
That sounds pretty apocalyptic, I mean, what's the point of introducing a force like that? That doesn't seem like anything all the runners in the world could appose, as if the corporate back ally dealings and organ leggers weren't abysmal enough. I mean, there's the sun will blow up in a few billion years, but in just a few hundred HP Lovecraft shows up and kills everyone from here to parallel neptune, and there's nothin you can do about it. Why do that?
With a few exceptions, runners don't know about it. Heck, most of the Powers That Be don't know about it. The only ones who know what's coming are the Immortal Elves and Dragons, because they lived through it the last time. Well, and the people pulling the strings down in Azzieland.

If we make it sound apocalyptic, then we're probably lowballing things. Last time, at the height of the mana cycle, all the most powerful magical empires in the world could do is build magically sealed bunkers deep underground and pray that the Horrors didn't find a way to tunnel in (and in more than a few cases, they did). Even the great dragons could do nothing but hide in their lairs, and sleep it out. The only survivors on the surface world were the Blood Elves, who deliberately corrupted their bodies, binding plant spirits into their patterns. They did this so that the thorns that burst through their skin, causing them constant pain would make them taste bad to the horrors. That is the only reason they survived.

It should also be noted that Horrors need a certain mana level to 'cross over', but they don't need that level to operate once they're here. They started showing up a few hundred years before the Scourge really got going, and even after it was over, they were still around. In the current time, there are sites where the background count is high enough that it makes it easier for the Horrors to slip over. Places where Great Ghost Dance-level magic was being done, for instance. The adventure Harlequin's Back involved Harlequin taking a group of runners and throwing them to the metaplanes, and making them (hopefully) find a way to stop the Horrors from making a 'bridge' between their world and ours. Dunkelzhan later blew himself up to charge an uber-powerful focus that was used to smash that bridge, and possessed a cyberzombie before going to the metaplanes to sit and guard the remains of the bridge, Black Knight style. He did this because the Azzies (who were also involved with the Harlequin's Back module) found a power nexus, and were intending on using it for, you guessed it, bringing the Horrors over. The reason Dunkelzhan came down hard on blood mages in his will is because blood magic (especially blood magic rituals) raises the background count in the area. You get a blood magic ritual done at a power site during a mana spike, and Bad Thingstm happen.

This is one of the reasons why long-time players say that the Azzies are uber-evil. It isn't (just) their policy of backstabbing runners, or their well-publicized brand of over-enthusiastic vengeance, or that they have a near monopoly on the nastiest forms of blood magic, or the fact that they're the group most likely to turn into the Umbrella Corporation from the Resident Evil games. It is the fact that the cult pulling the strings behind Aztechnology (and therefore Aztlan) is a group of Horror worshipers that is looking to bring them over now, centuries before it is time. And they have been for decades, if not more.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (13:12:45/02-02-13)
A couple of things to note here:

First, as stated earlier, the Horrors are the big metaplot secret.  The top players in the background (and I mean, THE top players) know about them and are arranging things so that metahumanity will be prepared and might be able to fend them off in the future.  They aren't laying betting odds on it though.  There is big, if underground and subtle, support for the space program, through Ares, to get people out into space and space colonies and to find a way to allow the magically active to exist there without being torn apart by the mana warp of deep space.  This is one of the big, long-term goals.

Will the players, or any other person not on the dragon's or IE's rolodex be privy to this?  No, not unless the GM wants them to be.  And given how bad everyone has been spinning this (including me), no GM should seriously contemplate introducing this with less than a very mature and experienced group of players capable of dealing with high level intrigue and empire building.  Not everyone can do that (the only reason I could is because of my love of world building games like SimEarth, Civilization, and the like, but even I have limits), therefore not every gaming group can or should try it.  Talk long and hard with your group about such things before diving in.

Second, in the 4th world, the previous Scourge everyone is referring to, the most powerful Horror didn't make an appearance.  Known by many names: The Great Hunter, The Horror Worshiped as a Passion, The Hunter of Great Dragons, the Horror feared by even the most powerful great dragons and immortal elves is Verjigorm.  This entity is referred to in dragon legends as the creator of the Horrors (and possibly the dragons, themselves), and seeks to corrupt everything about the world the dragons have settled upon.  But, during the last mana cycle, it didn't make a showing.  It is known that it captured many dragons and great dragons and put them in astral cocoons to convert them into a Horror/dragon hybrid capable of Re-Naming, and thus reshaping, the world around them.

Well, given that Verjigorm is immortal, the long view suits such an entity.  Why release them after the peak of the cycle, when the majority of Horrors can't cross over to assist in the destruction/corruption of dragonkind and the world they live upon, when one can just wait until the next peak and saturate the world in corruption and death.

A bit of digging reveals that FASA (which is back in play after many years) will be creating three other "Earth" style games to add to the Earthdawn (4th world) timeline.  The tetrology of games will be:  Earthrise, Earthdawn, Earthdusk, Earthfall.  The first will be the age of dragons and their rule (rumor has it a player will be able to play a dragon, yes, a Shadowrun/Earthdawn power level dragon, take that as you will).  The second is the 4th age of heroes we keep referencing.  The third, Earthdusk, takes place after the time of Shadowrun during and just after the mana peak. [spoiler]We lose.  It's post-apocalyptic like the Deadlands: Hell on Earth game.[/spoiler]  The fourth will be Earthfall, and will be full-on Exalted level of badassery power level.  Think troll Sky Raiders captaining space cruisers. The Horrors will be dealt with during this era, so other things are going on. [spoiler]We blow up the Earth so the Horrors no longer have a link to this universe.  It's kindof a darker setting.[/spoiler]

It has been said, however, that the link between SR and ED will be severed, and each allowed to explore their own way as an alternate timeline sort of thing.  Which I think is the best way of doing it.  Your GM can link them together or not, as each group wishes them to be.

In closing, you can use the Horror connection, or not, in your game.  It's up to you and your group.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (13:26:51/02-02-13)
Oh, also forgot to mention, the aftereffects of magically sealing lots of holes in the ground is still being felt. Remember all that stuff that happened in LA (Corporate Enclaves), when the ground suddenly shifted, and the Deep Lacuna appeared out of nowhere? That was one of those underground refuges that I was talking about, suddenly coming back from being a 'half-step to the left', if you will. The fact that the Universities in LA have sent big spirits into the Lacuna, and they were getting violently disrupted tells us that something is down there. Considering that it has basically been a bottle sealed off since sometime in the last mana cycle, I'd say it is probably a Horror. Not one of the Named ones, certainly, but all the same...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (14:56:51/02-02-13)
This, or some still functioning parts of caer`s defense grid.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: DarkLloyd on (00:42:22/02-03-13)
This, or some still functioning parts of caer`s defense grid.

That's what I would put my money on.
Speaking of that Caer, which faction do you think is going finally lay claim to that thing and start trying to shore it up and get it ready again?

Also, as badass as the Horrors are, and they ARE badass, I think Technology will give us the edge this time. They are spirits after all and lasers are one of The best weapons against them. That, and if you can target one of the big ones thru a spotter, hit it with a Thor shot. Or Multiple Thor shots.
As was mentioned above I think our space bases and whatever weapons they can come up with by the next scourge I think we will do better this time. Oh we will still have to sequester our selves but I think the battle lines won't be pushed back so far on the next go around.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: RHat on (00:46:54/02-03-13)
This, or some still functioning parts of caer`s defense grid.

That's what I would put my money on.
Speaking of that Caer, which faction do you think is going finally lay claim to that thing and start trying to shore it up and get it ready again?

Also, as badass as the Horrors are, and they ARE badass, I think Technology will give us the edge this time. They are spirits after all and lasers are one of The best weapons against them. That, and if you can target one of the big ones thru a spotter, hit it with a Thor shot. Or Multiple Thor shots.
As was mentioned above I think our space bases and whatever weapons they can come up with by the next scourge I think we will do better this time. Oh we will still have to sequester our selves but I think the battle lines won't be pushed back so far on the next go around.

It's technology that makes this cycle so important - they can't use the same strategy as in Earthdawn anymore, because the tech will make it way easier to find them.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (06:58:31/02-03-13)
This, or some still functioning parts of caer`s defense grid.

That's what I would put my money on.
Speaking of that Caer, which faction do you think is going finally lay claim to that thing and start trying to shore it up and get it ready again?

IDN what faction is going to do the legal claim, well I know for sure who will be the first who will leave their footprints there: us. Runners. Deniable assets. And only long after our screams, bodies and nighmares are analyzed, described and danges disarmed by by another, possibly better informed vawe, some officials would finaly go there to take a look.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (07:56:15/02-03-13)
I'd look to Saeder-Krupp, NeoNET, or Telestrian, actually, unless the Azzies get there first. While the other megas might know something's down there, SK, NeoNET, and AZT are the only AAAs with some of the old Powers in a position to claim the find and know what to do with it. Telestrian has long been a favored tool of the immortal elves, and LA is not far from their stomping grounds. EVO (with Buttercup on the board) is also a possibility.

Amongst noncorps, the only real contenders would be the Draco Foundation, the DIMR, or the Atlantean Foundation, for the same reasons as the corps I named: old Powers in charge, able to influence the situation.

Regarding tech and horrors, that is certainly what Hestaby, amongst others, is hoping. The reason she doesn't want a war between dragons and metahumanity is because together they might be able to defeat the Enemy this time around, if the tech can just get to a point where it will be powerful enough.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sichr on (08:07:06/02-03-13)
Azzies, namely Smoking Mirror, is already using the tunnels to infiltrate LA. There is a chance that their knowledge of what lies beneath is far more extensive than we imagine. On the other side, it is possible they use only smugglers ways for transportation meanings. And IMO smugglers are the types who are looking just for the way from point A to point B, so possibly they avoided deeper explorations. Well, LA is full of desperate people so I wont be surprised if some relicts from beyond had surfaced already ...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Erdseele on (23:51:59/03-14-13)
Sing to the horrors. If it sounds bad enough they might leave the pattern willingly. Problem solved.
@Sichr They could be tunnels left behind by Artificer who would make more sense being labeled as a toxic spirit.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Marzhin on (19:11:47/03-26-13)
After reading Storm Front, I have a distinct feeling that

[spoiler]the "free spirits" Chaos and Maelstrom are actually Horrors. I mean -- free spirits feeding on people's bad emotions, feared by the other spirits, and dangerous enough that Ghostwalker and Harlequin stop fighting each other and go "Oh crap"? If they're not Horrors, I don't know what they are...[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (20:37:19/03-26-13)
If Icewing and Caimbuel are buddy cop movie'ing it for this...

Shit just got real.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: RHat on (20:41:16/03-26-13)
If Icewing and Caimbuel are buddy cop movie'ing it for this...

Shit just got real.

...  Which one's "by-the-book" and which one's the lone wolf badass?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: zenbubble on (21:24:48/03-26-13)
If Icewing and Caimbuel are buddy cop movie'ing it for this...

"He's a Great Dragon with a city at his feet.  He's an Immortal Elf with a penchant for Chaos.  Together ...

They Fight Horrors!"

-Chris
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Marzhin on (04:51:37/03-27-13)
If Icewing and Caimbuel are buddy cop movie'ing it for this...

Shit just got real.

Well they're not really best pals all of a sudden. It's more a "let's kill each other later, once this threat is dealt with" kind of thing.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: RHat on (04:58:29/03-27-13)
If Icewing and Caimbuel are buddy cop movie'ing it for this...

Shit just got real.

Well they're not really best pals all of a sudden. It's more a "let's kill each other later, once this threat is dealt with" kind of thing.
If Icewing and Caimbuel are buddy cop movie'ing it for this...

Shit just got real.

Well they're not really best pals all of a sudden. It's more a "let's kill each other later, once this threat is dealt with" kind of thing.

Not exactly.  It's more like Ghostwalker's girlfriend/hometown was all "The hell are you doing, bothering with this guy?  LOOK AT THIS!", and then Harley's former apprentice and said apprentice's father (not that she knows it) show up and are all "The hell you doing?!".
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on (14:42:08/03-27-13)
lets not even go into the bit about Dragons Being Horrors....

But I digress. Yeah, the Major Horrors are not anywhere near having enough mana to come through. And on Horrors not being a major problem, I'd point to the Bugs adapting and using societies own tolerance against itself in a painfully accurate manner, claiming oppression and other such rubbish.

unless the world gets it's ac together...it's Horror Food
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (02:00:38/03-28-13)
Not exactly.  It's more like Ghostwalker's girlfriend/hometown was all "The hell are you doing, bothering with this guy?  LOOK AT THIS!", and then Harley's former apprentice and said apprentice's father (not that she knows it) show up and are all "The hell you doing?!".
Actually, Puck mentioned in Clutch of Dragons that the ritual samples and DNA tests done on everyone left behind after the Watergate Rift closed showed that Frosty was Ehran's daughter.

lets not even go into the bit about Dragons Being Horrors....

But I digress. Yeah, the Major Horrors are not anywhere near having enough mana to come through. And on Horrors not being a major problem, I'd point to the Bugs adapting and using societies own tolerance against itself in a painfully accurate manner, claiming oppression and other such rubbish.

unless the world gets it's ac together...it's Horror Food

The Named Horrors cannot come through on their own, yet. At least, not normally. Major blood magic rituals on power sites, however, such as the Great Ghost Dance or, well, everything that happens in Aztlan, can create a 'Bridge' that can allow them to pass over if a mana spike occurs. In fact, a Named Horror actually did make it through in the years before the Big D blew himself up to stand on the Bridge, and duped Aina Dupree into using blood magic on a power site during a mana spike to open the door enough for some lesser horrors to make their way through.

But yes, if the world doesn't get its act together, they'll be spending another 500 years underground hoping the Horrors haven't learned how to get around the Rites of Protection and Passage. Which is the reason why Hestaby acted as she did during the dragon conflict.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sacredsouless on (08:31:28/03-29-13)
Alright, I didn't read through the majority of the thread (ain't no one got time for that!, or at least I don't), but far as I can tell the majority of the information on Horrors, Immortal Elves, and Great Dragons are in the two Harlequin books (Harlequin and Harlequin's back), scattered through the Earthdawn material, and in the Dragonheart trilogy. Is there any other material floating around that is strongly recommended to pick up so I can get a solid idea of what is going on? Cause honestly, the Horrors & Co have my curiosity shooting off at ludicrous speed (hopefully the plaid won't color my thoughts too much).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (09:00:58/03-29-13)
Check out House of the Sun and Worlds Without End as well. Two shadowrun novels that involve Harlequin and Aina. Also, the adventure Bottled Demon may well involve a Horror trapped in an ancient idol.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sacredsouless on (12:22:48/03-29-13)
Many thanks, my shopping list has now expanded even further.  ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Grinder on (07:45:07/04-06-13)
A bit of digging reveals that FASA (which is back in play after many years) will be creating three other "Earth" style games to add to the Earthdawn (4th world) timeline.  The tetrology of games will be:  Earthrise, Earthdawn, Earthdusk, Earthfall.  The first will be the age of dragons and their rule (rumor has it a player will be able to play a dragon, yes, a Shadowrun/Earthdawn power level dragon, take that as you will).  The second is the 4th age of heroes we keep referencing.  The third, Earthdusk, takes place after the time of Shadowrun during and just after the mana peak.

nuFASA doesn't get shit done - and we should be grateful for that, given their fuck-up with ED3R or FS3.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on (14:43:37/04-06-13)
Oh?  Explain.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Red Canti on (12:40:52/04-14-13)
As said, the cthulhu and warhammer are just for inspiration. The horrors can appear in any shape or form(if any at all) or even an idea. A horror as an idea(every watch the movie Pontypool).
From what I've read (and that's largely in this forum, actually this thread) the Horrors have less in common with Lovecraft and Warhammer and a lot more in common with, well you can hazard a guess...
[spoiler]
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lek8rsDXxh1qb25zuo1_400.jpg)[/spoiler]

I mean think about it, he's ancient, he affects peoples' behaviors almost mystically, seems to live to troll, horrify disturb people, to say nothing of tearing them to pieces...It just fits SO well.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Aryeonos on (14:11:12/05-01-13)
Don't let my husband see that or he'll start digging through all the material on Horrors, and then I'll have an epic level campaign on my hands.

"And then I killed AAAALLL the horrors with a massive ritual orgy spell."
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Neurosis on (21:11:19/05-02-13)
A bit of digging reveals that FASA (which is back in play after many years) will be creating three other "Earth" style games to add to the Earthdawn (4th world) timeline.  The tetrology of games will be:  Earthrise, Earthdawn, Earthdusk, Earthfall.  The first will be the age of dragons and their rule (rumor has it a player will be able to play a dragon, yes, a Shadowrun/Earthdawn power level dragon, take that as you will).  The second is the 4th age of heroes we keep referencing.  The third, Earthdusk, takes place after the time of Shadowrun during and just after the mana peak.

Wait, FASA is a thing again? GuhWHAHAUGH?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: CanRay on (21:25:25/05-02-13)
Wait, FASA is a thing again? GuhWHAHAUGH?
Apparently it's a company that was already putting items out, bought the FASA name, and changed their name or something similar.  IIRC from meeting them at GenCon, they're out of the UK.
Title: Re:
Post by: Sichr on (04:53:30/05-03-13)
Please keep us informed if you are in touch with the group...
Title: Re:
Post by: CanRay on (12:58:53/05-03-13)
Please keep us informed if you are in touch with the group...
I'm not.  Only saw them at their booth at GenCon.  :(

I can't go this year.  You'll have to ask folks who can be at Cons to chat them up while the Ninja of the group searches for Paydata.

Surprisingly, said Ninja might be Bull.   ???
Title: Re:
Post by: Sichr on (14:34:07/05-03-13)
The best ninja we have never met...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Neurosis on (19:10:59/05-07-13)
I think there's any number of reasons Bull would make a terrible ninja. : P
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Adamo1618 on (13:42:22/01-03-16)
I found a few pictures of Horrors online, sharing them here:
https://imgur.com/a/wGp34
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Adamo1618 on (13:57:46/01-03-16)
These are fantastic for memes

(https://i.imgur.com/gSxdebP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/A9dIGbK.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Nevwfb6.jpg)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Tarislar on (20:20:42/01-06-16)
Above someone mentioned Bonecrown being at the bridge in DH Saga.

Wasn't there some mentions somewhere of "The Nemesis" ?   Or something like that.  I see that is a Named Horror on that link.

Also is that last one w/ the Y-name the one that Aina and Harq are fighting in End of Worlds,  (I think that is the book title anyone)

I always considered the Horrors to be similar in nature to the Demons/Devils of D&D,  lots of little minion ones like we see with Dark/Orusco & some major Arch Fiends level guys like the various Princes of Hell.

Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (22:50:41/01-06-16)
Comparing Horrors to Demons/Devils is like comparing Ted Bundy to a kid eating a hamburger. You're much closer to the mark when you start talking about the Lovecraft mythos, except while the Great Old Ones cause insanity and devastation wherever they go, they don't actually care about anything below them more than you'd notice ants scurrying under your feet, and the Horrors are actively malicious, causing insanity and misery because THAT'S WHAT THEY EAT!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rosa on (05:03:32/01-07-16)
Yeah and some of them eat Mountains as well.

I completely agree that comparing them to "normal" demons and devils are off the mark, they are more like a force of nature, like the negative balance to order and creation, they are the forces of death and destruction. That being said there are of course different levels of Horrors and some of them could probably be compared to demons and devils, while others are indeed more Akin to the old ones in the Lovecraftian mythology.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (10:23:03/01-07-16)
Close, Rosa. The Old Ones in Lovecraft's mythos don't actively seek out people to drive insane and torture. They are, as you said, a force of nature, of primal chaos. They're the kid that steps on an anthill in passing, and never knew it was there. Horrors are the kid that saw the anthill, stepped on it deliberately, and then begins using a magnifying glass on the ants as they scurry about, laughing all the while.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on (11:33:56/01-07-16)
Not completely true. Nrhymotep (sp) activity saught out humans to corrupt, use, and destroy. Depends on which Old One/Outer Gods you are talking about. Some actively sought to destroy everything. For D&D 3.5ed (4th doesnt exist) horrors are closer to Obyriths (true first rulers of the Abyss). Primordial beings so old and ancient that everything else is but utter tools to be played with. For Pathfinder they are now called Qlippoth, but serve the same basic function. Morals they hate, along with everything else, because moral souls make more demons. When all the souls are destroyed, no more demons (or much of anything else), and then the abyss will be theirs again. Granted, all realities will burn when this happens. Which, in scope of evil, are similar to the horrors. Can't remember which kind of outsider fed on fear and pain, but know some did.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sendaz on (11:51:41/01-07-16)
Nrhymotep (sp)
Nyarlathotep or Bill Nye are both acceptable.

What?  You don't think Bill Nye is an avatar of The Messenger of the Old Ones?

Let's see for a moment.

Has a fair following as he wows people with science, something that normally doesn't exactly grab a lot of ordinary folk, especially in some parts.

He pushes these sciences on the very young, while they are still impressionable.

Which leads to Little 8yr old Tiffany out late at night with quantum physics books about to start some ****  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3hAVT2sDqQ).
Setting the world up for its own destruction. ;)

P.S> Just teasing Bill, you knows we luvs ya.
And when the stars are right, you know where to reach us.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Raiderjoseph on (12:57:59/01-07-16)
Close, Rosa. The Old Ones in Lovecraft's mythos don't actively seek out people to drive insane and torture. They are, as you said, a force of nature, of primal chaos. They're the kid that steps on an anthill in passing, and never knew it was there. Horrors are the kid that saw the anthill, stepped on it deliberately, and then begins using a magnifying glass on the ants as they scurry about, laughing all the while.

So like Richard?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: cantrip on (14:10:38/01-07-16)
Close, Rosa. The Old Ones in Lovecraft's mythos don't actively seek out people to drive insane and torture. They are, as you said, a force of nature, of primal chaos. They're the kid that steps on an anthill in passing, and never knew it was there. Horrors are the kid that saw the anthill, stepped on it deliberately, and then begins using a magnifying glass on the ants as they scurry about, laughing all the while.

So like Richard?

Ah, Richard (http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t78/theforkoftruth/lfgposter1.jpg).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Raiderjoseph on (14:29:11/01-07-16)
Close, Rosa. The Old Ones in Lovecraft's mythos don't actively seek out people to drive insane and torture. They are, as you said, a force of nature, of primal chaos. They're the kid that steps on an anthill in passing, and never knew it was there. Horrors are the kid that saw the anthill, stepped on it deliberately, and then begins using a magnifying glass on the ants as they scurry about, laughing all the while.

So like Richard?

Ah, Richard (http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t78/theforkoftruth/lfgposter1.jpg).

Rosa your my favorite elf.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rosa on (03:53:43/01-08-16)
Close, Rosa. The Old Ones in Lovecraft's mythos don't actively seek out people to drive insane and torture. They are, as you said, a force of nature, of primal chaos. They're the kid that steps on an anthill in passing, and never knew it was there. Horrors are the kid that saw the anthill, stepped on it deliberately, and then begins using a magnifying glass on the ants as they scurry about, laughing all the while.

So like Richard?

Ah, Richard (http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t78/theforkoftruth/lfgposter1.jpg).

Rosa your my favorite elf.

Awww, it's as i said, always trust an Elf.  ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Raiderjoseph on (09:02:28/01-08-16)
Close, Rosa. The Old Ones in Lovecraft's mythos don't actively seek out people to drive insane and torture. They are, as you said, a force of nature, of primal chaos. They're the kid that steps on an anthill in passing, and never knew it was there. Horrors are the kid that saw the anthill, stepped on it deliberately, and then begins using a magnifying glass on the ants as they scurry about, laughing all the while.

So like Richard?

Ah, Richard (http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t78/theforkoftruth/lfgposter1.jpg).

Rosa your my favorite elf.

Awww, it's as i said, always trust an Elf.  ;)

SHE ADMITS IT! ROSA IS AN ELF!
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Shaidar on (12:31:38/06-12-16)
M. Darke appeared first as an antagonist in the campaign Harlequin's Back. The sourcebook Threats gave revised stats for him. And he finally appeared again as an antagonist in the Dragonheart Trilogy novels (Stranger Souls, Clockwork Asylum and Beyond The Pale) wherre he ends up killed, seemingly for good. Corporate Download dealt with the aftermath of an Aztechnology higher-up called "Oscuro", who was leading the blood mages faction within the corporation and vanished in a time frame consistent with the Dragonheart trilogy events. It is likely Oscuro is another name for M. Darke. Corporate Guide mentions again Oscuro role and his death.

Also, Geraldo Solis, a former Aztechnology board member retired on Zurich-Orbital, in Corporate Download, and Ad El-Hameed Hassani, an Aztlan citizen of Lybian descent heading the Apep Consortium whose bodyguards are former Aztechnology Jaguar guards, in Loose Alliances are heavily hinted as former associates of M. Darke, unless one of them actually is M. Darke.

I admit another necro, but...

Aetherology, for SR4 and SR5, has finally given stats to Darke's spirit minions, the Gum Toad and the Crawler. And some tantalizing tidbits alluding to possible falsehood to the myth of Darke's demise.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: PiXeL01 on (02:44:51/06-13-16)
I'm planning to use those two and have a protege of Darke come in, hoping to continue where Darke left off. That play line will send the runners back in time to the last time the Horrors appears (actually a metaplane)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: psycho835 on (20:53:41/06-13-16)
Well, unless the only Horrors on that plane are the same tier as Gumtoads and Crawlers - time to roll for SAN.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Marzhin on (18:34:40/05-02-17)
Anyone interested in the topic of Horrors in Shadowrun should definitely read the section titled "Where the wild things are" of Forbidden Arcana...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: EiraHaexa on (18:54:19/05-02-17)
Anyone interested in the topic of Horrors in Shadowrun should definitely read the section titled "Where the wild things are" of Forbidden Arcana...

Must. Get. That. Book.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (02:57:13/05-03-17)
Anyone interested in the topic of Horrors in Shadowrun should definitely read the section titled "Where the wild things are" of Forbidden Arcana...

*whistles innocently*

Hmm? What? Something tucked away in there?

Oh, perish the thought...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Marzhin on (05:40:59/05-03-17)
The events described make me wonder if

[spoiler]something has happened to Lethe/Dunkelzahn, or if there's only so much he can do by himself to keep the nasties at bay.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (09:19:02/05-03-17)
The Horrors were always coming. Unless the mana cycle can be locked down at a point below where they can bridge the gap, then they will come, in time, and not even the spirit of Big D can stop that. One bridge can be held. But when the gap is close enough that it is possible to build many short bridges, or even jump across, then there is a limit to what even the most powerful being can do on their own.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (14:47:08/05-03-17)
Given a normal cycle that is more than a thousand years in the future though. But I would point out, that in Earthdawn there were a few instances of horror incursions much earlier than the beginning of the Scourge and portents appearing even earlier than that.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: EiraHaexa on (19:22:18/05-03-17)
Oh good ghost. Elijah saw Aazhvat and (ostensibly) Ristul. Even with Harlequin's help, he's going to have a very hard time.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dwagonzhan on (19:54:11/05-03-17)
A battered Lethe/Dunklezahn falling back because the gap is too wide would actually make for an interesting metaplot development.
Not enough that it brings on the Scourge itself, but enough that a new plot focus would be developed (and also one that drops the ridiculously awful, IMO, CFD nonsense)
It'd give the Draco Foundation a purpose beyond "Acting mysterious for the sake of acting mysterious".
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (01:48:20/05-04-17)
Oh good ghost. Elijah saw Aazhvat and (ostensibly) Ristul. Even with Harlequin's help, he's going to have a very hard time.

No Named beings were present in this flashback (Well. Other than Elijah.)

We don't know what he saw.

He just saw Things.

The fun question, now, is this: Who's trying to rebuild the bridge connections? (The why's fairly obvious)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dwagonzhan on (02:09:11/05-04-17)
The fun question, now, is this: Who's trying to rebuild the bridge connections? (The why's fairly obvious)
My money is on Mr. Darke, from Harlequin's Back.
If he's working with Azlan, that would explain why the Fovae are only popping up around their territory (or former territories)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (12:11:26/05-04-17)
A bridge? That's different. Why isn't Lethe-out on top of this?

A battered Lethe/Dunklezahn falling back because the gap is too wide

Not sure what you mean by too wide? We want the gap to be wide, wide enough to call it a chasm, to call the end of the world, nothing to see here. Seriously the wider the better.

Anyway does this bridge definitely lead to the origin of the horrors? I mean if Elijah just saw "things", there are lots of "things" out there ...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dwagonzhan on (12:31:23/05-04-17)
A bridge? That's different. Why isn't Lethe-out on top of this?

A battered Lethe/Dunklezahn falling back because the gap is too wide

Not sure what you mean by too wide? We want the gap to be wide, wide enough to call it a chasm, to call the end of the world, nothing to see here. Seriously the wider the better.
I meant that the overall gap is narrowing, sorry. Which would result in the amount of astral ground Lethe has to cover to widen.
"The Bridge" is basically the doomsday clock, but mana levels are high enough already that other horrors can cross over if they get some metahuman sucker to help them.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (15:44:54/05-04-17)
The mana level shouldn't be a problem as it shouldn't be high enough for a thousand years. Manaspikes created by the Great Ghost Dance and similar rituals turned out to be a problem. These manaspikes are supposedly taken care of. Unless metahumanity drastically increased the rate of spike production a bridge should not be possible.

Again, the question is does the bridge go to the horror's plane of existence? But I guess another question could be is this a solid early-scourge-invasion-type bridge or a rickety rope bridge that a single adventurous horror could use to wriggle in. Because as a said before some horrors did come to earth before the Scourge in Earthdawn that wouldn't necessarily be an indication of a larger problem. (Though of course even a single horror could cause a lot of damage.)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dwagonzhan on (16:22:05/05-04-17)
The mana level shouldn't be a problem as it shouldn't be high enough for a thousand years.
It's already been established that the Invae (Insect Spirits) are already here, and way, WAY ahead of schedule (several centuries, at least).
That wasn't even 50 years into the Sixth Age, and we know the Invae weren't just hopping the spike points created by the Ghost Dance.

Logically, I assume the Scourge Armageddon Clock has moved up and accelerated considerably. The Sixth World is already a miserable, unstable place, and likely doesn't even have 1000 years before the Scourge begins. SRR suggests this is due to the sheer volume of people propping up the manasphere vs back in the Fourth World.

Given how the Immortal Elite Squad is treating the bridge (read: scared shitless), it's almost certainly the main point of entry for the Horrors to cross into regular metaplanar space, and from there, into the prime material plane. We also can deduce that the size of the "gap" as a whole is tied to mana levels on the prime material plane, and mana levels are only rising.

So, knowing all this, I suspect the Fovae are just "probes" of Horror design, to get some sucker metahumans Marked to help accelerate the main bridging process.
As Elijah demonstrated, simply making contact with them is enough to have a nasty effect, and they're quick to offer all sorts of things in exchange for helping them.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (16:50:17/05-04-17)
And then there's Crater Lake...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: EiraHaexa on (17:05:51/05-04-17)
And then there's Crater Lake...

Yea, Aina kinda walked right into that trap, didn't she? Yrsgrathe is good at making people do that.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (18:21:44/05-04-17)
It's already been established that the Invae (Insect Spirits) are already here, and way, WAY ahead of schedule (several centuries, at least).
That wasn't even 50 years into the Sixth Age, and we know the Invae weren't just hopping the spike points created by the Ghost Dance.

Harlequin's Back p.23:
Quote
Some of the Enemy have already entered the world, through smaller, temporary spikes in the magic level. Some have been called across through summoning rituals performed by ignorant fools. [..] For now, only a few, perhaps a score, of the Enemy exist in the World of 2055. Note that the insect spirits, the invae, are not the enemy, though these creatures come into our world in a similar manner.

Logically, I assume the Scourge Armageddon Clock has moved up and accelerated considerably. The Sixth World is already a miserable, unstable place, and likely doesn't even have 1000 years before the Scourge begins. SRR suggests this is due to the sheer volume of people propping up the manasphere vs back in the Fourth World.

I mean it's possible but the little that has been said in and after the Dragon Heart trilogy points to a normal mana cycle. By the way life attracts mana. So while there are more people around has the biomass on Earth really drastically increased compared to the pre-Earthdawn era? I wouldn't actually expect the world mana level to differ just because the human population has grown. But more people means a higher number of magically active, means more magicking around, which is why there will be more local reconfiguration of the manasphere hence dangers like unnatural mana spikes.

We also can deduce that the size of the "gap" as a whole is tied to mana levels on the prime material plane, and mana levels are only rising.

Sure. The "gap" is some kind of metaphysical distance between the physical plane and the horror's metaplane. The mana level following its cycle means this distance will decrease, so a connection is inevitable. But that has always been portrayed as a natural law. If there is no bridge or beacon or Therans messing with the natural order, the world mana level itself should not allow easy passage for the horrors until year 4000+. I'm at least not aware, that this general calculation has changed.

And then there's Crater Lake...

That's a growing ebb since the comet though isn't it? Shouldn't that help? ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (18:31:57/05-04-17)
And then there's Crater Lake...

That's a growing ebb since the comet though isn't it? Shouldn't that help? ;)

You'll find a mention of it in Forbidden Arcana.

Here's a question ... where does that mana go?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: EiraHaexa on (18:48:33/05-04-17)
And then there's Crater Lake...

That's a growing ebb since the comet though isn't it? Shouldn't that help? ;)

You'll find a mention of it in Forbidden Arcana.

Here's a question ... where does that mana go?

Right onto the Enemy's dinner plate?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dwagonzhan on (18:58:15/05-04-17)
I mean it's possible but the little that has been said in and after the Dragon Heart trilogy points to a normal mana cycle.

The discussion near the end of Shadowrun Returns suggests the opposite; that it's an INCREDIBLY accelerated mana cycle.
I know the Invae are not Horrors or allied with them (quite the opposite, the Invae fear the Horrors at least as much as anyone), however, it's also stated the Invae's arrival means the Horrors aren't terribly far behind (chronologicaly).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Marzhin on (05:49:31/05-05-17)
The discussion near the end of Shadowrun Returns suggests the opposite; that it's an INCREDIBLY accelerated mana cycle.

SR Returns is not exactly canon, though (cf. the various issues with the Telestrian family tree). Everything found in the video games should probably be taken with a pinch of salt.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (07:45:41/05-05-17)
The discussion near the end of Shadowrun Returns suggests the opposite; that it's an INCREDIBLY accelerated mana cycle.

As Marzhin says. For example Marie-Louise is head of Telestrian Biotechnology at the time of the game.

Anyway, I see your point:

Quote
When the membrane between planes thins, the insect spirits reach into the mind of a shaman and begin their manipulation, playing on weaknesses and offering unlimited power if the rituals needed to bring the spirits here are performed.
Quote
As the level of magic in the Sixth World grows the - for lack of a better word - the *distance* between the various planes of reality decreases. When the membrane between the planes is thin enough, ritual magic may be used to draw beings from one to another.
Quote
Based upon the previous cycles of magic, the first insects are not due to appear for another 700 years. My lord Lofwyr believed he was well ahead of schedule. Something is different this time. It iss... concerning.

Though I would argue that does not actually mean a baseline acceleration of the mana cycle. Look at the speculation about the reasons behind the early appearance of the insect spirits. I think it underlines what I said before:

Quote
Perhaps it is due to the population of humans and meta-humans on Earth being so much higher than in previous ages. As a result, the volume of magic created by sentient beings is correspondingly higher. Or perhaps it is the density of the population coupled with the advances of society and technology that has altered things.

Magic has never returned to a world like this one before. The density of sentient creatures, coupled with the density of information, coupled with the a new concept - the technological persistence of memory - heightens a society’s existential angst. Thus, more people realize how truly horrible existence is - simultaneously.

That in itself may be a form of magic. Lofwyr is studying the question now.

Not a faster cycle rather the sentient population is radiating a "juicier signal" out to the metaplanes. Might be their numbers, might be what they do or even think. (Also at this point the relevance of mana spikes created by ghost dance-level ritual blood magic seemingly wasn't yet recognized.)

I know the Invae are not Horrors or allied with them (quite the opposite, the Invae fear the Horrors at least as much as anyone), however, it's also stated the Invae's arrival means the Horrors aren't terribly far behind (chronologicaly).

It's true in one sense, since in Earthdawn's history the Invae seem to show up at the same time as the first Horrors. On the other hand, that's almost a thousand years before the Scourge. By the way working with the 700 years number they would have been around much longer before "The Burning", roughly 600 years longer ((5200 - 600)/2 - 1000 - 700). So  actually much earlier than the first recorded signs of horror activity.

Here's a question ... where does that mana go?

Fingers crossed for Therans messing with the natural order. :D
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Opti on (00:03:55/05-07-17)
Something to think about... while we have made considerable leaps in our technology and practice in the time since the 4th world ended... who is to say the Enemy hasn't also waited, watched, learned, grown, multiplied, and made far reaching plans? The cycles of mana MAY be natural, but sentient life has a way of subverting the natural... on both sides...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Crimsondude on (01:07:00/05-07-17)
No one wants to know what I think.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (03:01:25/05-07-17)
No one wants to know Everyone is afraid of what I think.
Got that corrected for you.  ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (03:52:39/05-07-17)
Something to think about... while we have made considerable leaps in our technology and practice in the time since the 4th world ended... who is to say the Enemy hasn't also waited, watched, learned, grown, multiplied, and made far reaching plans? The cycles of mana MAY be natural, but sentient life has a way of subverting the natural... on both sides...

Evidently. We wouldn't have needed the Dragon Heart if it didn't. And in the Sixth World so far there was just local manipulation of the manasphere by my understanding, but in the Fourth World the world mana level itself was manipulated. (Though if it was just "battery-powered" it might not be applicable to the current situation.)

No one wants to know what I think.

*pssst* Are you thinking the Enemy found a way to reach across the metaverse into the minds of your fellow freelancers and uses them to write itself back into the setting?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Crimsondude on (13:10:02/05-07-17)

No one wants to know Everyone is afraid of what I think.
Got that corrected for you.  ;)

You know me too well, Wyrm. Let me just say that my last SR-related email used "bloody" literally.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Crimsondude on (17:06:50/05-07-17)
*pssst* Are you thinking the Enemy found a way to reach across the metaverse into the minds of your fellow freelancers and uses them to write itself back into the setting?

They never left, but I can't say more.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Dwagonzhan on (16:25:34/05-09-17)
Not a faster cycle rather the sentient population is radiating a "juicier signal" out to the metaplanes. Might be their numbers, might be what they do or even think.
If it's the numbers, then it will be accelerating greatly no matter what.
Population growth in Shadowrun's world (vs ours) was only temporarily curtailed by the presence of VITAS. Once that disease was checked however, population growth has been steadily increasing.

http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/File:ChartWorldPop2.gif

~6 billion by 2055
~7 billion by 2071
Approaching 7.5 billion by 2080 (I'm truncating the projected timeline due to it being, well, the future)

Unless the Fourth World had populations like that (extremely unlikely, but I'm not well versed enough in Earthdawn to definitively say), and assuming this hypothesis is correct, then the gap is likely a lot smaller now than it ought to be in Fourth World analog.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (11:35:33/05-10-17)
I would say it's more in the range of ten to a hundred million.

Again what I meant by "numbers" is not that the cycle is accelerated, but that the sheer presence of so many minds (their signal) makes it somehow easier for entities from the deep metaplanes to traverse the distance between the worlds or find weak spots in the barrier between them, depending on the metaphor you prefer, even given a natural cycle. This goes back to the description of the Ghost Dance mana spike as a "locator" for the horror bridge in Worlds without End. Whether an increasing sentient population also increases the probability could go both ways: The enities still need to overcome what separates the worlds, a better "visibility" of our plane of existence might only get you so far.

Also the numbers made a difference regardless of the cycle. The Ghost Dance mana spike wouldn't have existed without the ghost dancers sacrificing their life. And once the powers that be put up a defence via Harlequin overcoming it was only possible by using various assets among them the Blood Mage Gestalt, which not only needs the cooperation of blood mages but also uses their life up. A stone age-sized population entering the magical era would have far fewer magicians available to sacrifice to such endeavours, they would also be more spread out.

Let me put it this way, the portrayal of the threat in Harlequin's Back and the Dragon Heart trilogy is explicit in that the problem is not the cycle but singular disturbances of the manasphere. All I have read since does not contradict that. I agree that this conversation in Shadowrun Returns could be interpreted in such a way but it is ambiguous. In addition as a game SRR is a peripheral source and even within the context of the game these are speculative statements.

So I don't know whether anything about the cycle has changed but Crater Lake could well be another "singular disturbance" with the one person connected to it conveniently removed from the scene. I have to admit it's a neat little loose end to pick up.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Nath on (15:32:55/05-10-17)
Again what I meant by "numbers" is not that the cycle is accelerated, but that the sheer presence of so many minds (their signal) makes it somehow easier for entities from the deep metaplanes to traverse the distance between the worlds or find weak spots in the barrier between them, depending on the metaphor you prefer, even given a natural cycle. This goes back to the description of the Ghost Dance mana spike as a "locator" for the horror bridge in Worlds without End. Whether an increasing sentient population also increases the probability could go both ways: The enities still need to overcome what separates the worlds, a better "visibility" of our plane of existence might only get you so far.
In that regard, the Great Ghost Dance can be looked at under two different perspectives. It was a massive act of sacrifice magic, that put the Scourge closer. But its goal was also to trigger multiple volcano eruptions (possibly including, though the original SR writers had no way to know at the time, the Yellowstone supervolcano). Had the Great Ghost Dance went ahead, a volcanic winter could have drastically reduced global population.

So the Great Ghost Dance could be considered as purposefully designed to either fasten up or slow down the coming of Horrors. One might even wonder if firing the Lone Eagle ICBM at Russia wasn't an early attempt at lowering Earth population by some millions.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (00:47:50/05-11-17)
Yeah, population volume is very much a thing in terms of mana creation and astral energy as well as research into scientific areas of magic. The natural manasphere may only be at point X in the usual curve, but there's so many more *people* that weird things are happening.

"Keep the Earth's population under 500 million" indeed.

Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rosa on (22:22:26/05-11-17)
Ehran described the cycle of magic as a semi-regular wave and in forbidden arcana there's some talk about a certain alignment between the astral and the physical being necessary for mana to flow between the two.

If we take the two points together it's likely that the parts of the wave that represents the times of magic also represents a close alignment of the astral and the physical, with the height of the mana cycle being when the two are in perfect alignment. That's when the horrors come through. The chasm in the metaplanes is actually a perfect metaphor for this.

There's no indication that the amount of population has anything at all to do with the speed with which the two spheres move towards perfect alignment, just as the amount of people on Earth doesn't affect its rotational speed either.

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread we do know though that singular events can create spikes that can be used to bridge the gap between the planes ahead of time. In that case then yes a higher population will mean greater chances of such singular events taking place,  but that's about the only effect a higher population will have on the speed of the cycle as I see it.

We should remember though that a population increase isn't unique to the 6th world,  the 4th and the 2nd would have had significant population increases as well  due to magic suddenly making life and healing that much easier, whereas the 3rd and 5th world would have begun with dramatic population decreases for the opposite reasons. Of course the population of the 6th world is much higher still,  but as I said that does not really matter except for a higher chance of those singular events taking place.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: psycho835 on (05:19:33/05-13-17)
Again what I meant by "numbers" is not that the cycle is accelerated, but that the sheer presence of so many minds (their signal) makes it somehow easier for entities from the deep metaplanes to traverse the distance between the worlds or find weak spots in the barrier between them, depending on the metaphor you prefer, even given a natural cycle. This goes back to the description of the Ghost Dance mana spike as a "locator" for the horror bridge in Worlds without End. Whether an increasing sentient population also increases the probability could go both ways: The enities still need to overcome what separates the worlds, a better "visibility" of our plane of existence might only get you so far.
In that regard, the Great Ghost Dance can be looked at under two different perspectives. It was a massive act of sacrifice magic, that put the Scourge closer. But its goal was also to trigger multiple volcano eruptions (possibly including, though the original SR writers had no way to know at the time, the Yellowstone supervolcano). Had the Great Ghost Dance went ahead, a volcanic winter could have drastically reduced global population.

So the Great Ghost Dance could be considered as purposefully designed to either fasten up or slow down the coming of Horrors. One might even wonder if firing the Lone Eagle ICBM at Russia wasn't an early attempt at lowering Earth population by some millions.
Sooo... Lowering population. VITAS. Think that was on purpose?
Also, how did Howling Coyote get the know-how to enact the GGD? Wasn't it implied that he had some... help?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Marzhin on (06:06:45/05-13-17)
Also, how did Howling Coyote get the know-how to enact the GGD? Wasn't it implied that he had some... help?

It's hinted that Thais had something to do with that.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (06:50:15/05-13-17)
As has been mentioned earlier in this thread we do know though that singular events can create spikes that can be used to bridge the gap between the planes ahead of time.

I would only add that the "singular event" doesn't necessarily have to be a mana spike (because .. well, magic ;)). And at least in theory Lethout should be all over those spikes... For example there have been hints of migratory movements across the metaplanes. I always wondered whether our realm could not be reached via "stepping stones". Though there is also the idea that the horrors have to maintain a connection to their home plane, once this connection is disrupted they are drawn back. Maybe that makes an indirect route difficult to use.

Also, how did Howling Coyote get the know-how to enact the GGD? Wasn't it implied that he had some... help?

It's hinted that Thais had something to do with that.

The old Grimoire had a biography of Daniel Howling Coyote. By his own claim the Ghost Dance rituals were revealed to him in a vision by a Great Spirit. It so happens that the historical Ghost Dance movement of the late 19th century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Dance) was inspired by Thais to attempt a Ghost Dance, failing because of the low mana level, according to Worlds without End.

In that regard, the Great Ghost Dance can be looked at under two different perspectives. It was a massive act of sacrifice magic, that put the Scourge closer. But its goal was also to trigger multiple volcano eruptions (possibly including, though the original SR writers had no way to know at the time, the Yellowstone supervolcano). Had the Great Ghost Dance went ahead, a volcanic winter could have drastically reduced global population.

So the Great Ghost Dance could be considered as purposefully designed to either fasten up or slow down the coming of Horrors. One might even wonder if firing the Lone Eagle ICBM at Russia wasn't an early attempt at lowering Earth population by some millions.

So the Native Americans were the ones planning mass murder? That has to be a popular conspiracy theory. :|
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Nath on (17:20:58/05-14-17)
In that regard, the Great Ghost Dance can be looked at under two different perspectives. It was a massive act of sacrifice magic, that put the Scourge closer. But its goal was also to trigger multiple volcano eruptions (possibly including, though the original SR writers had no way to know at the time, the Yellowstone supervolcano). Had the Great Ghost Dance went ahead, a volcanic winter could have drastically reduced global population.

So the Great Ghost Dance could be considered as purposefully designed to either fasten up or slow down the coming of Horrors. One might even wonder if firing the Lone Eagle ICBM at Russia wasn't an early attempt at lowering Earth population by some millions.
So the Native Americans were the ones planning mass murder? That has to be a popular conspiracy theory. :|
The Native Americans performed the Great Ghost Dance, but I never said they were the ones who designed it. Spirits, half-horrors, dragons or whatever taught the shamans the dance may have had very different goals indeed.

But even if they weren't planning to kill hundreds of millions of people, the SAIM was at war and certainly was not playing nice. Triggering the eruption of Mount Hood, Mount Rainier, Mount St. Helens and Mount Adams was their last warning shot. Let's just remind that Mount Rainier is about twice as big at Saint Helens and in direct proximity to Tacoma. There were none of the usual, sismological warnings. It was also said Chief Thunder Tyee ordered his units to help evacuate some area near Mount Rainier (after the eruption), which suggest the state and Federal agencies were not capable to do it. Several hundreds of people killed may be a conservative estimate. That may not be a lot with regard the global deathtoll on both sides between 2009 to 2018, and it was only a fraction of the number who would have been killed if the US government carried out its extermination campaign. So I think it depends if you consider "mass murder" only as a synonym for systemic genocide or if you consider that isolated acts of wiping out entire villages qualify.

There would be an interesting moral debate considering whether the Ghost Dance shamans had fine control or not over which volcano would erupt, and then if the eruption of Mount Rainier (likely to be the most deadly) was necessary to display the power of the Ghost Dance.

Besides, the eruptions were only supposed to a warning shot. So the plan had to have a next phase. If you consider that volcanoes cannot erupt twice, there weren't so many options available to raise the bar. The eruption of the Yellowstone supervolcano would jump directly to the hundreds of millions killed (albeit indirectly over several years). Earthquakes in New York City (again), San Francisco, Los Angeles and Seattle may kill "only" a few thousands of people, while causing disproportionate economic damages. Massive floods along the Mississsipi, Colorado and Los Angeles rivers may leave more time for evacuation, while still causing massive economic damagas (and, interestingly enough, devastate the areas that would delimitate the NAN, possibly allowing the SAIM to expand its control zones).

Of course, that would assume the casualties among the Ghost Dance shamans did not prevent a second strike. What the Great Ghost Dance was capable of after the eruptions would indeed be one of the best-kept secret of the NAN even several decades after, for strategic reasons.

Back in 2009, taking over a military base and launching a nuclear missile at a random target, on the other hand, certainly qualify a "planning mass murder". But as far as conspiracy theories go, I still wonder what  the Shadowrun authors original idea was. We all take that event for granted because we read about it in various sourcebooks set forty years later. If former members of the armed forces were to take over a military compound in the most remote part of Montana for ten days, before the Delta Force kills them all, what independent sources of information would you actually have ? Sure, the media would rush to whatever is the closest Montana town, but I doubt they would be allowed to settle anywhere near the base. So the best independant evidence you would have would actually be some shooting of a missile fired up in the sky. The book specifically stated no explanation was ever given on how the terrorists entered the base, and doesn't given one regarding how they bypassed the missile launching protocols

Actually, there is no military facility anywhere near Shiloh Valley in Montana... (though I guess it may a fictious place modelled after Malmstrom Air Force Base, near Great Falls)..
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (07:17:24/05-15-17)
I wanted to write genocide, but since this would have targeted all of humanity rather than specific groups I used mass murder instead. Which admittedly applies to a smaller scale of killing too, but I was thinking of dimensions associated with genocide. And I suspected that you did not necessarily mean it was the goal of ghost dance shamans--we just talked about the Thais connection--but it could easily be understood that way, which I wanted to point out. Also "I was just following spiritual orders" might not go over well in your war crime tribunal. ;)

There would be an interesting moral debate considering whether the Ghost Dance shamans had fine control or not over which volcano would erupt, and then if the eruption of Mount Rainier (likely to be the most deadly) was necessary to display the power of the Ghost Dance.

[...]

Of course, that would assume the casualties among the Ghost Dance shamans did not prevent a second strike. What the Great Ghost Dance was capable of after the eruptions would indeed be one of the best-kept secret of the NAN even several decades after, for strategic reasons.

I wonder is this a purposeful allusion to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs? Or is similarity superficial really only that it was also a demonstration of a weapon of mass destruction? Because the US would have been able to continue the bombing campaign after Nagasaki.

The book specifically stated no explanation was ever given on how the terrorists entered the base, and doesn't given one regarding how they bypassed the missile launching protocols

Well, they had the help of an insider: Major John Redbourne. He disabled the fail-safes and presumingly could have launched the Lone Eagle. Though I think most of the accounts do not actually put the blame for the launch on SAIM but leave the question of responsibility open.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Nath on (16:56:33/05-15-17)
There would be an interesting moral debate considering whether the Ghost Dance shamans had fine control or not over which volcano would erupt, and then if the eruption of Mount Rainier (likely to be the most deadly) was necessary to display the power of the Ghost Dance.

[...]

Of course, that would assume the casualties among the Ghost Dance shamans did not prevent a second strike. What the Great Ghost Dance was capable of after the eruptions would indeed be one of the best-kept secret of the NAN even several decades after, for strategic reasons.
I wonder is this a purposeful allusion to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs? Or is similarity superficial really only that it was also a demonstration of a weapon of mass destruction? Because the US would have been able to continue the bombing campaign after Nagasaki.
Two different topics here.

About the moral debate in the demonstrative use of a weapon that will primarily hit civilian population, the parallel is inescapable. However, the number of deaths caused by Ghost Dance eruptions is likely nowhere near those of Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombings (or Tokyo or Dresden bombings for that matter). Still, it's important to note that there is little to no reference to any other attack by SAIM against civilian population (actually, I don't remember any, save for the Lone Eagle launch, but I cannot assert there is none at all). So the eruptions may have been their first attack targeted at civilian. Had it failed to hold the US offensive back, it would have been considered as a turning point in the SAIM strategy.

About the SAIM capability to perform a second strike, that's one big difference. In 1945, the US appears to have the capability to drop seven atomic bombs over the three following months (after that, it's less clear), each about as powerful as the previous ones. It was just a matter of raw materials and production. Performing the Great Ghost Dance, on the other hand, killed a significant number of shamans. Since shamans are a scarce resources, not easily replaced, the Ghost Dance may actually have become gradually weaker and weaker each time it would have been used.

Moreover, making a volcano erupting twice is pointless - pressure, dome and ice cap (and surrounding population!) being gone. Mount Rainer size and proximity to urban areas made it sort of a best pick. Once that option has been used, you either target Hawaii as another warning shot, trigger earthquakes in some major city, or go in full mutual destruction mode with Yellowstone. So not only the number of shots is limited, but it's not even sure there would be enough shamans alive to fire the next one.

From a strategic point of view, making Mount Rainier explode may seem like a mistake. The SAIM has already shown it could cause an eruption in Los Alamos. As a show of force, there's little difference between the ability to make four or three volcanoes erupt at once at will. Mount Rainier is the most threatening volcano in the US, and causing an uncontrolled evacuation of Seattle area may be way more potent, while avoiding the blame of undiscriminating civilian casualties.

Considering the US lack of magical knowledge at the time, I would actually have expected the SAIM to send the US government specific warnings of what they could do next, earthquakes, flood, or a supervolcano eruption. Which would make even more critical to hide Ghost Dancers casualties and their actual capability (assuming the SAIM itself knew what they were capable of).

On the other hand, the eruption were followed by attack on a number of military facilities throughout North America, so maybe Mount Rainier was specifically chosen so as to allow SAIM forces to seize Seattle as its first major metropolitan area (which Chief Thunder Tyee did not do, instead focusing on evacuating the population).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Nath on (17:26:32/05-15-17)
The book specifically stated no explanation was ever given on how the terrorists entered the base, and doesn't given one regarding how they bypassed the missile launching protocols
Well, they had the help of an insider: Major John Redbourne. He disabled the fail-safes and presumingly could have launched the Lone Eagle. Though I think most of the accounts do not actually put the blame for the launch on SAIM but leave the question of responsibility open.
Yes. To be more clear here, the history chapter in Shadowrun first edition pointed to the lack of explanation on how they broke in and the presence of Redbourne in the same sentence. I'm not sure if that's supposed to explain Redbourne could not provide the needed help to break into the perimeter or it's meraly bad writing.
Quote
Shadowrun 1st edition, page 13
A small band entered the Shiloh Launch Facility in northwest Montana, capturing a missile silo. To this day, no one knows how the raiders managed to bypass the security patrols, but once inside the missile, they met up with John Redbourne, a USAF major and a full-blood Dakota Sioux. After knocking his partner unconscious, Redbourne took the man's keys and codes to unlock the launch failsafes.

Regarding the launching of the missile itself, I often forgot Shadowrun ought to be closer to Hollywood than to real life and that I shouldn't bother about how actual nuclear arsenal procedures are implemented (in that case the fact that launching must be performed from two separate control rooms, thus requiring punching at least three colleagues).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (12:18:34/05-16-17)
From a strategic point of view, making Mount Rainier explode may seem like a mistake. The SAIM has already shown it could cause an eruption in Los Alamos. As a show of force, there's little difference between the ability to make four or three volcanoes erupt at once at will. Mount Rainier is the most threatening volcano in the US, and causing an uncontrolled evacuation of Seattle area may be way more potent, while avoiding the blame of undiscriminating civilian casualties.

Considering the US lack of magical knowledge at the time, I would actually have expected the SAIM to send the US government specific warnings of what they could do next, earthquakes, flood, or a supervolcano eruption. Which would make even more critical to hide Ghost Dancers casualties and their actual capability (assuming the SAIM itself knew what they were capable of).

Right, Los Alamos, so basically their Trinity. :D I think no one believed the claims about Redondo Peak. And there might not have been a warning because it was a test and the ghost dancers didn't know whether their magic would work. But I'm not sure that such warnings would have convinced the US and Canadian governments. Psionics was a popular explanation for magical phenomena at the time, they could have chosen to attribute such warnings to precognitive abilities rather than believe their opponents had power over nature. The simultaneous eruption of four volcanoes sent a clear signal that this power was real.

Yes. To be more clear here, the history chapter in Shadowrun first edition pointed to the lack of explanation on how they broke in and the presence of Redbourne in the same sentence. I'm not sure if that's supposed to explain Redbourne could not provide the needed help to break into the perimeter or it's meraly bad writing.

Almost sounds like they used magic, but this was before 2011...

Regarding the launching of the missile itself, I often forgot Shadowrun ought to be closer to Hollywood than to real life and that I shouldn't bother about how actual nuclear arsenal procedures are implemented (in that case the fact that launching must be performed from two separate control rooms, thus requiring punching at least three colleagues).

In reality security at nuclear facilities is almost always worse than what you would expect it to be, even if you have low expectations.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (12:33:52/05-16-17)
On the main topic: I read an older discussion which reminded me that the dragon heart would have gone to Thayla according to Dunkelzahn's original plan. With her gone the protection might be incomplete or the heart's own security impaired. Something to keep in mind.

But since Wakshaani pointed to Crate Lake, a mana ebb, maybe the problem is something that cannot be remedied with the dragon heart anyway.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sengir on (14:40:28/06-11-17)
Just when things got interesting...

Short recap, feel free to troutslap me if you feel misrepresented:

But I would say that suffers from the same problem as the idea of living people contributing to mana levels: A quarter of the world population died in the years before and the Awakening didn't come a day earlier. Mass deaths can obviously have strong local effects, but on a worldwide scale the cycle of magic just seems to carry on.

Really, the fact that the Mayas could calculate the exact date of the Awakening in advance should lay all theories about the influence of human population to rest, because they could impossibly have predicted demographics 5200 years into the future. Reliable long-term divination is OOC-officially impossible.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (15:08:45/06-11-17)
Oh right, that's what I had written about.

Really, the fact that the Mayas could calculate the exact date of the Awakening in advance should lay all theories about the influence of human population to rest, because they could impossibly have predicted demographics 5200 years into the future. Reliable long-term divination is OOC-officially impossible.

I think I made the point here, that this is not necessarily the case. The "threshold" could be a bifurcation. Only once mana can freely flow into the world, the population has an effect on the mana level. So mana rising and falling to zero would be a hard timing but the manalevel in between could be modulated. (Though I don't believe that there is an effect beyond a higher population means a higher number of magically active doing magic that draws the attention of astral denizens or even facilitates their arrival -- the signal I spoke of earlier.)

I think I made another point about the hypothesized manaspike in the middle ages and the occurrence of the Black Death. Not sure where I went with this. ;)
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Jack_Spade on (16:49:38/06-11-17)
The difference might also be akin to amperage and voltage:

Amperage is the mana level, slowly increasing available juice for all kinds of stuff
Aspecting the mana through sacrifice, mass dying and ghost dances increases the voltage, the pressure with which mana flows into this world.

A high voltage could be - metaphorically spoken - like a tesla coil, producing a visible lightning arc across the planes of existence without necessarily containing a lot of mana/electrons.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Nath on (17:31:22/06-11-17)
Really, the fact that the Mayas could calculate the exact date of the Awakening in advance should lay all theories about the influence of human population to rest, because they could impossibly have predicted demographics 5200 years into the future.
That's assuming the Maya did predict it.

Ryumyo was the first dragon to awaken and Howling Coyote use magic to escape from the Abilene detention camp on December 24th, 2011. Then some people pointed out this was the exact day the Mayan calendar predicted to be the end of the World ("Some mystics point to the Mayan calendar as an authority", as Shadowrun 1st edition stated).

In real life, 24th December, 2011 was the day the thirteenth b'ak'tun of the Mesoamerican Long Count (aka "the Mayan Calendar") was to end according to a correlation with the Gregorian calendar mentioned by Michael D. Coe in his book The Maya in 1966. Coe changed that date to January 11th, 2013 in the 1980 edition, and December 21st, 2012 in the 1984 and subsequent editions.

As far as we know, the December 24th, 2011 date was calculated by Coe using the original "Thomson 1" correlation and making a mistake between astronomical year and BCE/CE date (the former having a year zero nut not the latter). If you account for the Goodman correlation, the Martinez-Hernandez correlation, the Thompson 1 correlation, the Modified Thompson 1 correlation and the Modified Thompson 2 correlation (aka "Goodman-Martinez-Thompson" correlation), and the possibility of an error with/without year zero, there are 10 different dates in 2011 and 2012 that you could claim the Maya predicted as the end of the world, plus that January 11th, 2013 date that I have no idea how Coe calculated it. You can even make that number double again by arguing over the use of a Proleptic Gregorian calendar rather than a Proleptic Julian calendar.

Ehran does endorse a Mayan prediction of December 24th, 2011, in his famous Human and the Cycle of Magic (http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/imports/cycleOfMagic.html) speech. He does so while also asserting the previous age of magic ended on August 12th, 3113 BC and the current one will end on April 4th, 7137 AD.

As I pointed out in my lost message, the length of thirteen b'ak'tun is 1,872,000 days, while there are 1,871,270 days between August 12th, 3113 BCE and December 24th, 2011 CE and 1,871,969 days between December 24th CE and April 4th, 7137 CE.

The Modified Thompson 2 correlation gives August 12th, 3114 BCE as the Long Count starting date and December 21st, 2012 CE as the end of the thirteen b'ak'tun. A Long Count starting on August 12th, 3113 BCE as Ehran puts it would actually predict the end on December 21st, 2013. For the December 24th, 2011 to have been predicted by the Long Count, the starting point would have to be August 15th, 3115 BCE.

In his speech, Ehran says he was "as precise as possible" when advising an Egyptian Pharaoh in establishing a calendar that missed the date "by over two years" all the while giving dates that are off by nearly two years as well. If that guy is half as smart as he supposed to be, he ought to be 1) fully aware of that, and 2) deliberately misleading his audience.

The Awakening could have occurred at a more or less random date, that happened by random chance to be one date previously considered for the Mesoamerican Long Count to reach its thirteen b'ak'tun, and various people retroactively turned that into an accurate prediction. It would be actually just as credible to attribute such prediction to a 20th century archaeologist working for the CIA (the only person we can say for sure really did write down the December 24th, 2011 date) rather than to the Mayan people.


Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (20:25:16/06-11-17)
I suggest both the cycle and the sentient/life parts are correct - in their area.

The cycle is massive, powerful, independent of the amount of life or number of sentients - the 'quality' of that life, if you'll indulge me.  The cycle is not going to advance, be rushed, be shifted by anything any sentients can do; this is more powerful than orbital mechanics, this is a function of a power on a solar, if not galactic, if not universal, scale.  In 5000 years, it'll go below the active magic point.

However, life and sentients can affect specific areas; this is the manafield/manasphere theory.  Yes, great death can affect it, sending the local mana into an insanely high peak for a time, but that peak - however it's created - will fall unless it's sustained by steady rituals or deaths or celebrations or whatever created the peak in the first place.  Lots of people in an area with no magic can establish (or reestablish) a connection to the cycle, and other things can affect the effects of the cycle, but like controlling the tide, while you can push against it and stop it (or channel it) for a time, it'll eventually destroy whatever you're doing unless you continually maintain and reinforce that dike, barrier, peak, bridge, or whatever.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (22:36:16/06-11-17)
While the cycle as a whole cannot be stopped, or broken, by any act mortals might conceive of, we're talking about a cycle that can be measured like geological epochs. Who is to say that mortal intervention on a sufficiently large scale couldn't change the speed of the cycle by a decade or two, perhaps even a century in local areas, when you're talking about a cycle measured in upwards of a thousand years?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sengir on (12:09:06/06-18-17)
In real life, 24th December, 2011 was the day the thirteenth b'ak'tun of the Mesoamerican Long Count (aka "the Mayan Calendar") was to end according to a correlation with the Gregorian calendar mentioned by Michael D. Coe in his book The Maya in 1966. Coe changed that date to January 11th, 2013 in the 1980 edition, and December 21st, 2012 in the 1984 and subsequent editions.
IMO that is a meta/OOC issue, in-universe there has AFAIK never been another date than December 24th 2011. The only divergence was SRR, which makes sense because their campaign coicided with the 2012 craze, when everybody knew that was the official date (only SRR also took some other liberties with canon).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (15:30:43/06-19-17)
A version of Humans and the Cycle of Magic states that "The Sixth World began on December 12, 2011 AD". It also mentions December 24, 2011 as the date for passing the threshold. It's possible that this just a mistake and it is meant to be the same date.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070805214212/http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/fiction/fiction1.shtml

Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Nath on (17:45:16/06-19-17)
In real life, 24th December, 2011 was the day the thirteenth b'ak'tun of the Mesoamerican Long Count (aka "the Mayan Calendar") was to end according to a correlation with the Gregorian calendar mentioned by Michael D. Coe in his book The Maya in 1966. Coe changed that date to January 11th, 2013 in the 1980 edition, and December 21st, 2012 in the 1984 and subsequent editions.
IMO that is a meta/OOC issue, in-universe there has AFAIK never been another date than December 24th 2011. The only divergence was SRR, which makes sense because their campaign coicided with the 2012 craze, when everybody knew that was the official date (only SRR also took some other liberties with canon).
AFAIK, there are only two sources in-universe that give December 24th, 2011 as a match for the Mayan calendar: the first edition book and the "Humans and the Cycle of Magic" material. And the former actually attributes that claim to "mystics" and "dreamers". The third edition only mentions year 2011 and the fourth edition wording is quite open about it.

Quote
Shadowrun 1st edition, page 14 / Shadowrun 2nd edition, page 23
What we know as the Year of Chaos was actually the end of the old age and the beginning of the new, the dawn of our Awakened World. Some mystics point to the Mayan calendar as an authority, noting that it predicts the start of a new cycle of humanity on December 24, 2011. They also say the appearance of the Dragon Ryumyo is the signpost marking what the Mayan called the Sixth World.
Had they done better research, these dreamers would have discovered that the Mayans also predicted a world-destroying calamity that would herald the birth of a new, improved race of humans. Where were these things? It is true that we faced trials, disasters, and great chnge, but we do not have a new world. It's still good, old Mother Earth, even if she has entered a new phase.
Quote
Humans and the Cycle of Magic
Converting the Mayan dates to the current Christian calendar, it correctly states that the Threshold would be passed on December 24, 2011.
Quote
Shadowrun 3rd edition, page 25
The year 2011—flagged by the ancient Mayans as the year in which the world would end and a new world emerge—saw more bizarre kinds of upheaval than any year before or since.
Quote
Shadowrun 4th edition, page 25
The real kicker happened December 24, 2011. What was previously known as the Year of Chaos became the Awakening as simultaneous events spectacularly ushered in the Mayans’ Sixth World: the appearance of the great dragon Ryumyo over Mount Fuji, witnessed by hundreds of Japanese passengers on a bullet train, and the Native American prophet Daniel Howling Coyote leading his followers out of the Abilene Re-Education Center.

For the record, the 5th edition doesn't mention the Maya at all.

Quote
Shadowrun 5th Edition, page 20
There’s one date everyone needs to know: December 24, 2011. That’s the day the Sixth World started. According to the academicky types who like to sort things into boxes and put the boxes in order, this planet of ours has seen six ages, by which they mean six different levels of magic. The previous age, the Fifth World, was an ebb in magic. Magic was shady, disreputable, a bit slatternly, hiding out in dark corners and back alleys, very rarely coming out in the light of day. Then, on December 24, the great dragon Ryumyo flew out of Mount Fuji and darted alongside a bullet train full of very surprised commuters, pretty much putting the world on notice that the ebb was over. That was just the beginning; magic coming back meant big changes for the world.
In fact, some of the changes had kicked in months before, just nobody understood that’s what was happening.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Reaver on (17:47:40/06-19-17)
A change of a decade or two isn't much when you are talking cycle of this scale. 10 to 30 years is within a statically valid range for it to be really considered a change.

Get that cycle to change by 200 years, then you are talking about influence on the pattern...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (10:30:06/06-22-17)
A change of a decade or two isn't much when you are talking cycle of this scale. 10 to 30 years is within a statically valid range for it to be really considered a change.

That depends on whether the phenomenon fluctuates. Sunrise is never a minute late.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Reaver on (20:51:13/06-22-17)
A change of a decade or two isn't much when you are talking cycle of this scale. 10 to 30 years is within a statically valid range for it to be really considered a change.

That depends on whether the phenomenon fluctuates. Sunrise is never a minute late.

Really?? Then why is sunrise at 5:19 at my house in BC, but 4:59 at my house in the Yukon? Both are in western Canada... one is just 4000 km more north
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (08:05:03/06-23-17)
You are joking right?

You can precisely calculate sunrise for any given date and either location. Sunrise will occur down to--well actually I don't know the precision--but I'm positive it will not be a minute late any time. The underlying gravitational process is too reliable. As long as the system is not disturbed, i.e. Earth is hit by a large object, sunrise simply cannot fluctuate by ~ .1 percent which is the same order of magnitude as 10 years in a 5,000- or 10,000-year-cycle.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (01:27:19/06-24-17)
You're misunderstanding what he's saying, lokii.

The cycle may or may not be uniform in nature, but our actions can change how we interact with it. Similar to how a simple change of latitude can change local sunrise, even in the same longitude, or vice-versa. Or how dredging a river to allow larger ships in to port can change the way the tides impact the beaches in the area. Or how having a magnet nearby can pull a compass off course. Magnetic north doesn't change (barring extreme situations). The tides come in and out at regular intervals. The Earth spins on its axis at a constant speed. But our perception of these things changes depending on the conditions.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (11:18:04/06-24-17)
The point is sunrise is an example of a natural cycle with little fluctuation. Of course it is place-dependent, that does not mean your movement causes sunrise to be early or late in any given point on Earth. Forget about sunrise, just think of one rotation of the planet. Note this cycle does drift over time (tidal friction), it also does fluctuate but by way less than .1%. The revolution of the Earth around the Sun would be another example. There is no universal rule that every natural cycle can be expected to vary by the same x percent of its period.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Sterling on (07:39:37/06-25-17)
You're misunderstanding what he's saying, lokii.

The cycle may or may not be uniform in nature, but our actions can change how we interact with it. Similar to how a simple change of latitude can change local sunrise, even in the same longitude, or vice-versa. Or how dredging a river to allow larger ships in to port can change the way the tides impact the beaches in the area. Or how having a magnet nearby can pull a compass off course. Magnetic north doesn't change (barring extreme situations). The tides come in and out at regular intervals. The Earth spins on its axis at a constant speed. But our perception of these things changes depending on the conditions.

On the contrary, magnetic north DOES change, and has been doing so ever since its discovery:

https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/GeomagneticPoles.shtml

The North Magnetic Pole is currently drifting towards Siberia, and is over 1200 miles away from the geographic North Pole.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Reaver on (15:03:58/06-26-17)
Actually the point was the length of cycle and natural variations on that pattern.

Yes, some things can be tracked very closely, but even those measurements are not entirely precise... sometimes cause it just doesn't matter. (Like sunrises. They are getting longer because the earth is slowing down! Both it's rotation on it's axis AND around the sun! - Just very slowly)


When looking at a cycle that is 12000+ years long a change of a couple of decades is a blink of an eye!
So really, how much effect doe these actions have?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (18:48:28/06-26-17)
(Like sunrises. They are getting longer because the earth is slowing down! Both it's rotation on it's axis AND around the sun! - Just very slowly)

That's drift though not fluctuation. Here is a graph of day length fluctuation over time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deviation_of_day_length_from_SI_day.svg It's in the millisecond range. In recent decades there has been a cumulative positive effect in the second range, but that's after the equivalent of thousands of cycles (again drift). If the mana cycle was a phenomenon with comparable variation to +/- 1 ms in 24 h (and I'm not saying it is), its start could at most vary by hours. (calculation: (10400 * 365 * 24 ) / (24 * 60 * 60 * 1000) )

Anyway, I think the point came across.

I would move to an adjacent topic: What is the meaning of passing the threshold on December 24? Lots of magical phenomena including widespread nobilis and pumilionis expression happened during the whole year. So what is qualitatively different after that specific date? If it is just a point in a continuous increase in the world mana level it would appear what the Mayan calendar really predicted was the appearance of the first dragon.

But I guess it's possible that all the magical phenomena in 2011 are the result of an increasing number of mana spikes and on December 24 the change occurred from zero world mana level with an increasing spike rate to an actual positive world mana level.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Reaver on (02:30:14/07-09-17)
That's pretty much how its presented in the Lore.

On Dec 24, the ambient mana level reached a point that triggered UGE, and elf babies and dwarves started showing up, spirits appeared, hokey rituals actually went "boom" (you know, old skool shamanic spells from before UMT. Waay back in 1e when shamans actually danced about to cast spells.) Oh, and a dragon or two flew across the sky and ate a plane.

Then a few years later, an other spike in the ambient mana levels caused Goblinization, and people grew horns and tusks... but unlike with UGE where it was babies born that were affected - people expressed right on the street! Think of it.. Larry the guy you share the bus with every day, suddenly screams out in pain and doubles over then in the matter of minutes, grows 4 extra feet tall and gains 100 kilos. And don't forget the horns.

then things were quiet for a time... although some argue that the introduction of the meta-races points to more spikes triggering more expressions...

Then Haley's comet comes back, and shit goes nuts with changelings...

A few more spikes in the ambient levels and maybe people will get their other favorite Earthdawn/SR variant snowflakes! 
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (03:32:22/07-09-17)
Who needs spikes for that?  :P
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: zhivik on (10:21:09/07-15-17)
A few things about the examples above.

On Earth's rotation staying relatively constant - yes, it does stay relatively unchanged, except if it falls under the gravitational influence of another celestial body. We have evidence of collisions of celestial bodies (the Solar System's asteroid belt), so it is theoretically possible that Earth's orbit and rotation cycles to be influenced by a large enough body, which would considerably change the length of Earth's day. Using this as analogy, the mana cycle might have been influenced by an extraordinary event, which has accelerated the rate of mana growth, thus nearing the time of Horrors. I'd say this is the implication ever since Shadowrun 3e (when Shadowrun and Earthdawn were both released by the same publisher).

On the threshold's importance - the best analogy I can think of is a water dam. When no water passes the dam wall, you have no water on the other side, so the landscape is much more different. When water passes the top of the wall, however, you start getting water, which nourishes plants, then trees, new life, etc., namely a lot of things you wouldn't have without water. Same thing with mana - passing a certain threshold, it allows expression of metahuman traits, allows magic, and an increasingly potent one. There is a good real-life example with the Colorado River, which by the time it reaches Mexico is an insignificant fraction of what it is in the US, mostly due to heavy water consumption. Several years ago, US authorities decided to let the water through, I don't remember the exact reason. The Mexican landscape around the river changed in days, with people seeing green for the first time in decades.

So basically this is it - once mana reaches necessary levels, it allows certain things to happen. Now, there appear to be a lot of things wrong with this cycle, since goblinisation wasn't supposed to happen so early, as implied in Forbidden Arcana. Furthermore, some Earthdawn races are still absent, so there may be a while lot of things going on ...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (11:58:56/07-15-17)
That's pretty much how its presented in the Lore.

On Dec 24, the ambient mana level reached a point that triggered UGE, and elf babies and dwarves started showing up, spirits appeared, hokey rituals actually went "boom" (you know, old skool shamanic spells from before UMT. Waay back in 1e when shamans actually danced about to cast spells.) Oh, and a dragon or two flew across the sky and ate a plane.

UGE occurred before December 24.

On Earth's rotation staying relatively constant - yes, it does stay relatively unchanged, except if it falls under the gravitational influence of another celestial body. We have evidence of collisions of celestial bodies (the Solar System's asteroid belt), so it is theoretically possible that Earth's orbit and rotation cycles to be influenced by a large enough body, which would considerably change the length of Earth's day. Using this as analogy, the mana cycle might have been influenced by an extraordinary event, which has accelerated the rate of mana growth, thus nearing the time of Horrors. I'd say this is the implication ever since Shadowrun 3e (when Shadowrun and Earthdawn were both released by the same publisher).

No, when Third Edition came around, FASA had just cancelled Earthdawn (1998). The crossover was sidelined with the death of Dunkelzahn at the end of Second Edition. We had the discussion about acceleration earlier in the thread. Maybe from here: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=185.msg487717#msg487717

At least for Second Edition it was made explicit that the mana cycle did not accelerate and the threat of early contact was connected to unnatural mana spikes (like in Hawaii or the Great Ghost Dance mana spike). Key quotes from Harlequin's Back:

p.9:
Quote
In the area of the spike, therefore, the creatures that ravaged the world millenia ago are "closer" to the Sixth World than at any other place. The presence of the spike shortens their "journey" across the metaplanes from thousands of years to a mere few.

p.23:
Quote
The Enemy can pass into our world during a window of opportunity near the peak of the mana cycle. That cycle will peak in about 2,500 years, with the Enemy's window occurring roughly 300 years on either side of the apex.

And the objective of the adventure is clearly to neutralize the spike in order to get back to the natural schedule. The Dragon Heart trilogy removed the spike altogether and put a stop to the crossover moving forward in any major way. Since then it has mostly been easter eggs.

On the threshold's importance - the best analogy I can think of is a water dam. When no water passes the dam wall, you have no water on the other side, so the landscape is much more different. When water passes the top of the wall, however, you start getting water, which nourishes plants, then trees, new life, etc., namely a lot of things you wouldn't have without water. Same thing with mana - passing a certain threshold, it allows expression of metahuman traits, allows magic, and an increasingly potent one. There is a good real-life example with the Colorado River, which by the time it reaches Mexico is an insignificant fraction of what it is in the US, mostly due to heavy water consumption. Several years ago, US authorities decided to let the water through, I don't remember the exact reason. The Mexican landscape around the river changed in days, with people seeing green for the first time in decades.


The problem with this analogy is that two month before the water comes, a stretch of the river bank is already green (the Maya cloud formed in October 2011). ;) And again elf and dwarf expression also happens before December.

Now, there appear to be a lot of things wrong with this cycle, since goblinisation wasn't supposed to happen so early, as implied in Forbidden Arcana. Furthermore, some Earthdawn races are still absent, so there may be a while lot of things going on ...

How exactly is an early goblinization implied in Forbidden Arcana?


Also we seem to have lost some posts again: I remember Nath suggesting that the qualitative change on December 24 was the demonstration of magical abilities. I had a counter example from Tír na nÓg, an attack by the IRA using magic in spring 2011, which is even acknowledged to be noteworthy as the first demonstration of magic is generally thought to be the Abilene breakout.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Shaidar on (20:48:36/08-30-17)
Forbidden Arcana pg 169-175 has some shadowtalk which sounds very Horror-relevant to me.

When ...
Quote
USER FROSTY HAS LOGGED IN
> Well, this should b-
> Haze
> USER ORANGE QUEEN HAS LOGGED IN
> USER WORDSMYTH HAS LOGGED IN
> … oh shit.
> Haze
> USER LAUGHING MAN HAS LOGGED IN

Login things get dark fast.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: psycho835 on (06:46:36/08-31-17)
Yep. According to that particular chunk, the Horrors are reaching out to astral travelers who get to close to the chasm and try to cajole them into helping with the bridge.
Hmmm... Wonder if that has something to do with  Engkanto (p. 82-84 and 100-101 of Street).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (23:00:40/08-31-17)
Both the spirits seen in that section, the engkanto and the manananggal, are Philippine in origin; it isn't likely that they're Horrors, just ... malevolent spirits.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (09:55:03/10-31-17)
You may note that where the origin of magic is speculated on, there's also a talk about the astral plane aligning. Pouring energy into it seems to happen all the time, but drawing from it isn't always possible. This is part of the 'cycle' of magic. Connections drift often, which is why you get power sites here or there but not everywhere, mana voids, and so on. Lunar events, planetary alignments, and, of course, Halley's Comet also have some influence on how much mana can be drawn on and how much 'splashes out' into magical activities.

Still a lot of science to figure all of that out. Even Ryumyu, one of the top Great Dragon magicians, didn't plot out how much power would come off the Comet properly, despite being well aware of when it was going to arrive. Japan paid for that blunder.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Opti on (17:56:27/10-31-17)
Both the spirits seen in that section, the engkanto and the manananggal, are Philippine in origin; it isn't likely that they're Horrors, just ... malevolent spirits.

Horrors have never been called Horrors in SR. I think the most explicit they've ever been was tzitzimine. Now if THAT word were to come up again, I'd know something was up.

PS. Spellcheck doesn't like that word...
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Cynewulf on (19:07:26/10-31-17)
Does having low essence confer resistance to horror abilities?
I am wondering this because having a low essence seems to make it harder to drain your essence. Also, it's harder to percieve someone with low essence astrally.
If 'Horror Marks' are a thing in SR, is marking harder if you have only a tenuous connection with essence?
Might explain why the Greats have such a love for researching augmentations, dispite its 'polluting' nature.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (19:36:44/10-31-17)
Does having low essence confer resistance to horror abilities?
I am wondering this because having a low essence seems to make it harder to drain your essence. Also, it's harder to percieve someone with low essence astrally.

I don't know that horrors care about essence.

Might explain why the Greats have such a love for researching augmentations, dispite its 'polluting' nature.

And in turn it's a somewhat open question whether the great dragons care enough about the horror threat to research measures against it. ;) Dunkelzahn didn't think they did: "My fellow dragons are overconfident, thinking they can hide in their lairs as they have always done."
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (22:02:44/10-31-17)
You don't get a real resistance to magic until you go into negative Essence as a cyberzombie.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: ShadowcatX on (22:59:41/10-31-17)
If the horrors don't show up early they might we'll find Earth an uninhabited husk and everyone moved off world or dead.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Crimsondude on (23:59:57/10-31-17)
Unless they manage to hitch a ride or something.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (00:34:59/11-01-17)
They need a certain mana level to cross over. But once here, the level they require to actually stay is much lower. Great dragons can, in theory, leave the manasphere without getting killed (if they still have hardened astral armor, that is), so sufficiently powerful Horrors may be able to do that as well.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: PMárk on (23:31:28/01-13-18)
Ok, quick question: I don't know if it was discussed earlier and I don't have time right now to go through multiple threads, so.

Are the Elder Gods in Dark Terrors are the Horrors? I'm still reading the chapter, but I'm curious. That those cultists seemed to break the "no teleportation" rule reminded me to all the talking in Forbidden Arcana, regarding Elijah's claims that "magic has different sources".

Yes, no, we don't know?
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (05:16:03/01-14-18)
Haven't yet looked at it, but I'm guessing yes. Various freelancers have stated that they rather not use the descriptor "horror" because it's an Earthdawn term that was never really (or at all?) established in Shadowrun. But we should keep in mind the connection is really old. Using "elder gods" instead of the established "the enemy" may also indicate that they go in a new direction rather than just using a different name for Earthdawn horrors.

Also there is teleportation in Harlequin.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: PiXeL01 on (08:53:46/01-14-18)
I admit I got a Lovecraftian feeling instead of being Horrorfied when I read about the Elder Gods.
It would of course be grand if they reestablished the link between the two settings, at least on loose terms
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Osentalka on (17:02:09/01-14-18)
It's odd, some of the elements used in the Elder God section were definitely associated with the Horrors in previous editions. Gum Toads and Crawlers were servants of Mr Darke in Harlequins back, who was an agent of the Horrors. However other things like Gaf from the Book of Gaf where not. Gaf was a Free Spirit who could be worshipped by human mages like the Aleph Society, I think from Threats 2. Gaf is a powerful being from our own set of metaplanes, not outside them like the Horrors are.

The way I interpreted it was this. The Horrors are still stuck outside our set of metaplanes and are inimical to metahuman life, a DM can use them if they want but should remember they won't be fully present in our metaplanes until the next Scourge at the height of the Sixth world in a couple of thousand years time. However there are other beings from our own set of Metaplanes who can be worshipped, make deals with human mages and are nearly as tricky and dangerous as Horrors but are already here.

I don't know, some of that section confuses me. I've no idea how the experiment of feeding ghouls with ghouls is supposed to relate to the rest of it..
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (19:07:24/01-14-18)
Well, there should be a small number of horrors present in the Sixth World. According to Harlequin's Back some have reached Earth using temporary mana spikes or by being summoned. Since this does not seem to be related to the Ghost Dance or similar strong magic this route should still be open. And according to Beyond the Pale (third Dragon Heart novel) a few likely entered the Sixth World before the bridge they built using the Ghost Dance mana spike collapsed and the spike was wiped out.

So unless the dragon heart intervention severed all connections and every horror that made it to Earth has been hunted down, a few should be around.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Osentalka on (19:35:12/01-14-18)
So what are Gaf, Tak, Dru and Obe. Some of the minor Horrors that made the jump?  Could be, I'm perfectly willing to believe that, but as I said in Threats they just seem to be dangerous Free Spirits.

Still don't know what the Ghouls eating ghouls thing is supposed to be about.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (14:56:00/01-15-18)
At this time, no HORRORS have been seen that anyone knows about, but there might be some Horrors and certainly some horrors.

That is to say, you'll find wimpy lil' footsoldier types, like Gum Toads if you search enough ... the Azzies were bringing those things in by 2050, for instance. They're the least of what you could see in the proper Metaplanes.

There might also be some Horrors, such as the corrupted dragon that may or may not exist in Aztlan, or othe rtypes of "Lieutenant" level Horrors.

But you're quite unlikely to see a full-blown HORROR just chillin' somewhere, melting faces and eating elbows while they chill in a theatre in New York. The mana levels are too low for them to exist here (yet) and the connective bridges were broken that they would have slid down.

The more worrisome part are the people who, willingly or not, are helping to bridge the chasm. They could accidently let something in. How long it could remain before it had to leave for greener pasture is a question that I don't think people want to have answered. :D
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: lokii on (17:52:11/01-15-18)
The mana levels are too low for them to exist here (yet) and the connective bridges were broken that they would have slid down.

I haven't yet collected all of the pertinent quotes, but I think the mana level dependency of horrors is an Earthdawn (possibly ingame) theory. The topic is of course not discussed at length in Shadowrun, but instead it's very clear. Harlequin in Harlequin's Back:

Quote
(p.19)
But the Enemy capable of entering our world now could survive and ravage the planet. They need a certain magic level to get in, but most of them could survive easily without it once they're here.

Quote
(p.21)
Some have already been summoned or slipped through. That's the way it goes. The problem is that when the rest come, they come like an army. A huge, un-fraggin'-stoppable army.

and

Quote
(p.23)
Some of the Enemy have already entered the world, through smaller, temporary spikes in the magic level. Some have been called accross through summoning rituals performed by ignorant fools. Most of those fools have paid dearly for their arrogance. For now, only a few, perhaps a score, of the Enemy exist in the world of 2055.

There might also be some Horrors, such as the corrupted dragon that may or may not exist in Aztlan, or othe rtypes of "Lieutenant" level Horrors.

But you're quite unlikely to see a full-blown HORROR just chillin' somewhere, melting faces and eating elbows while they chill in a theatre in New York.

I guess it comes down to what you consider "Lieutenant"-level. The one example we know of, Ysrthgrathe, seemed to do fine in the Sixth World.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: TonyK on (10:25:39/01-16-18)
Unless they manage to hitch a ride or something.
*cue alternate campaign setting*
Monads make it to another system, and then get messed with by Horrors.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Mirikon on (11:52:17/01-16-18)
Unless they manage to hitch a ride or something.
*cue alternate campaign setting*
Monads make it to another system, and then get messed with by Horrors.
Aw, hell. Perhaps the reason Horrors can only come through at certain times is because while we assume their home is a deep dark metaplane, it is actually a planet in another solar system, and the rising mana levels allow them to form the bridge across stars.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Shaidar on (15:42:31/01-17-18)
OR...

What if not "all" metaplanes are only 'meta'-physical-planes but are also the astral planes of other real worlds and the physical (astronomical) distance could allow some astral threats to hop-skip to our gaia sphere.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Wakshaani on (22:04:24/01-17-18)
OR...

What if not "all" metaplanes are only 'meta'-physical-planes but are also the astral planes of other real worlds and the physical (astronomical) distance could allow some astral threats to hop-skip to our gaia sphere.

I have a mental map about the Metaplane structure.

One day, I'll try and get someone with decent skills to take a shot at it.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rosa on (17:38:12/01-18-18)
@Osentalka . Gaf, Tak, Dru and Obe are described as great shadow spirits native to the plane of Shadow where they each control a moon  ( Aetherology pg. 22 ). As a matter of fact anyone interested in the nature of the metaplanes should read or re-read Aetherology  ( quite probably some of the current writers of Shadowrun could do with a read of Aetherology as well ).
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Osentalka on (04:28:13/01-19-18)
Well there go, big bads from within our Metaverse. So ultimately the Elder Gods section isn't about the Horrors at all, it's a standard extension of the Aleph Society storyline that's been running since Threats 2.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Reaver on (10:16:13/01-19-18)
Some threats never really go away, they just find a darker corner to hide in.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: PMárk on (23:52:28/01-19-18)
Ok, so thesum of it seems to be (meanwhile I finished the book too), that some of the things discussed in the section are either Horrors, or somehow Horror-related (I could literally hear the groaning and facepalming all the IEs and great dragons, when seeing the upload about another locus), others are not, but right now, they got labeled as "Elder Gods" by the characters in the setting.
Title: Re: Horrors
Post by: Rosa on (02:40:22/01-21-18)
I'll attempt a breakdown.
1) Some organization of the infected  ( or there's at least infected amongst them ) is attempting something through metacannibalism  ( quite likely increasing the potency of the HMHVV strains ). There's some use of hebrew including the curious use of the word Lilitu,  which has links to Lilith,  female demons and motherhood in that connection, almost like they're trying to "impregnate " the virus. Possible Horror links: the HMHVV virus could in theory be a horror construct from the last age of magic,  they did create magical diseases and they are also connected with undead in ED.

2) There's some following up on the Aleph society plot and the mentions of Gaf, Tak, Obe and Dru from Aetherology, though any Horror connections are unknown, though wraiths have previously been mentioned as early forerunners of the horrors,  though it could be like the Invae that the presence of Shadow spirits are merely indicative of rising mana levels.

3) The talk about the Dweller,  The Hungry Void and The Violet Gas are again follow ups from Aetherology,  so are the mentioning of Crawlers and Gum Toads btw. Again it's hard to say if this has any relation to horrors.

4) The talk about a Locus and the bridge are most definitely at least somewhat related to horrors,  with the bridge being very directly linked to them as per the Dragonheart saga and Aetherology.

All in all there are some links to horrors in there but it seems to be indirect for the most part,  at least according to the information we currently have. Though it is curious that all of this is lumped together under the Elder Gods heading. There's definitely some comparisons possible between the Elder Gods in the Lovecraftian sense and the horrors.