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6E House Rule Idea - Initiative as Choice not Turn Order

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skalchemist

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« on: <02-07-20/1020:07> »
Recent threads that I and others started got me thinking about Initiative in SR 6E.  Here is a house rule idea.  I'm not saying its a good or bad idea; YMMV.  Its just something that came to me.  I'm interested in what others think about it.  It's not a new idea; other games have used similar systems (I'm pretty sure the old "World of Darkness: Combat" supplement had nearly exactly this system in it.)

Under this house rule, your Initiative is not your turn order.  It is your ability to make choices on the battlefield about when to act and to gain information about what is going on.  The higher your initiative, the more aware you are, the more ready you are for action, compared to others.

Therefore, the order of play is altered.  Instead of starting turns with the person highest in the initiative order, you start with the person with the LOWEST initiative.  Lets call that person Alice.  They state what they plan to do on their turn in general terms: "I"m going to run to that car, take cover, and shoot at Bob", for example.  Then they pause.  At this point, you work your way up the initiative scale, and check; does anyone want to take their turn before Alice does?  If someone does (say, Chuck), then Chuck states their intent in general terms.  "I'm going to fire at Alice!"  At this point, Alice's turn is put on "pause" in a sense, and we resolve Chuck's turn in the same fashion; check if anyone with a higher initiative score wants to go first.  Eventually you'll reach a state where no one wants to "interrupt" anyone.  Now you let the people who declared turns take them in a last in first out manner.  In the case above, first Chuck takes his turn, then Alice.  All are obliged to try to follow their stated intent, although circumstances may prevent them from doing it partially (or at all) in which case its really up to the GM and the player to work out what is reasonable.

After that is done, all people who took their turns are "done" with (I) actions for that round.  They can still take (A) actions if they have any available actions left.  You then check to see who is left with the lowest initiative and do the process again.  Keep doing this until everyone has had their turn and an opportunity to take (I) actions.  Then, that's the end of the round; do end of round stuff, reset everyone's actions, and start a new round.

POTENTIAL BENEFITS OF THIS SYSTEM: High initiative, already valuable, is much more valuable under this system.  Also, once you have finished a combat round, it can lead to a more "natural" seeming narrative of what happened.  Its more tactical and creates more opportunity for interesting choices.

POTENTIAL DRAWBACKS TO THIS SYSTEM: The narrative may be more natural, but the flow is more complicated, and there is more "process time" to figure out who is actually taking a turn; this could take some people out of the moment and make combat seem more artificial.  You need some way to track who has taken their turn and who hasn't that is reliable and clear.  Remember intents can be a problem in high tension moments; if a stack of people all "interrupt" Alice, by the time Alice gets to take her turn she might have completely forgotten what she was going to do.

Anyway, its an idea.  I'm not sure if it is good one.  The crunchy 19 year old gamer in me thinks "that is SO AWESOME!", but the laid back 50 year old GM in me thinks "geez, what a nightmare to keep track of". 

As a slight variation, to make it less complicated to track, you can say that the "interrupted" person is under no obligation to stick to their original stated intent when their turn comes around, but if you do that then I think you also need to give a new chance for "interruption".  But that then makes having the lowest initiative conceivably a very frustrating place to be; you keep being asked what you want to do, but then not being able to do it!
« Last Edit: <02-07-20/1023:13> by skalchemist »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <02-07-20/1027:35> »
My alltime favorite RPG system, the d10 Roll and Keep mechanic of AEG's Legend of Five Rings, had this.  Going around from lowest to highest in initiative you DECLARE your actions.  Then in reverse order, highest to lowest, you RESOLVE them.

You lost initiative and had to declare first, and resolve last?  You'd declare full defense and pray for the best.  If you won, you get to do a full attack knowing you won't get attacked back, or move to a better tactical position, or etc.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

skalchemist

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« Reply #2 on: <02-07-20/1121:57> »
My alltime favorite RPG system, the d10 Roll and Keep mechanic of AEG's Legend of Five Rings, had this.  Going around from lowest to highest in initiative you DECLARE your actions.  Then in reverse order, highest to lowest, you RESOLVE them.
That's another way to do a similar thing.  That is a bit easier to manage than what I described, while giving a bit less control to people with higher initiative; they get to know what others are doing, but don't get to determine the order things are done in. 

It still has the issue about how to handle intents that become meaningless; like if you say your intent was "take cover behind the car" and by the time your turn rolls around the car is a flaming wreck, do you still have to take cover near it?  What is your obligation to follow your original intent.  It sounds like LoFR had one common answer to that question which is "fall back to defense".

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <02-07-20/1127:36> »
My alltime favorite RPG system, the d10 Roll and Keep mechanic of AEG's Legend of Five Rings, had this.  Going around from lowest to highest in initiative you DECLARE your actions.  Then in reverse order, highest to lowest, you RESOLVE them.
That's another way to do a similar thing.  That is a bit easier to manage than what I described, while giving a bit less control to people with higher initiative; they get to know what others are doing, but don't get to determine the order things are done in. 

It still has the issue about how to handle intents that become meaningless; like if you say your intent was "take cover behind the car" and by the time your turn rolls around the car is a flaming wreck, do you still have to take cover near it?  What is your obligation to follow your original intent.  It sounds like LoFR had one common answer to that question which is "fall back to defense".

If the guy who lost initiative wants to go run into the doorway and block the other guy from running out through it, and the guy who wins initiative runs through it first.. then yeah.  Sorry, initiative loser.  You do it, but you were too slow.
« Last Edit: <02-07-20/1131:07> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #4 on: <02-07-20/1131:15> »
The downside would be that you never get to actually react to others this way, while those higher up would. So for this to work, I would make you declare your next turn the second you finish your turn.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #5 on: <02-07-20/1135:17> »
The downside would be that you never get to actually react to others this way, while those higher up would. So for this to work, I would make you declare your next turn the second you finish your turn.

Yeah I don't know how feasible it would be to directly import to shadowrun.  For starters it necessitates rerolling initiative every round, so that you might sometimes WIN initiative and flip the narrative.  But the way Shadowrun works... the guy with wired reflexes or magical equivalent isn't GOING to lose initiative to someone who lacks it.  Winning initiative in d10 L5R was a HUGE advantage, but you were never guaranteed to win the way can be SR. 
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

skalchemist

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« Reply #6 on: <02-07-20/1142:10> »
Yeah I don't know how feasible it would be to directly import to shadowrun.  For starters it necessitates rerolling initiative every round, so that you might sometimes WIN initiative and flip the narrative.  But the way Shadowrun works... the guy with wired reflexes or magical equivalent isn't GOING to lose initiative to someone who lacks it.  Winning initiative in d10 L5R was a HUGE advantage, but you were never guaranteed to win the way can be SR.
I'm not sure re-rolling every turn would be necessary; I hadn't really thought about that.   This idea does make the +3 Initiative Edge Boost more valuable, maybe? 

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: <02-07-20/1203:14> »
If you have to declare your next action immediately after you finish your own turn, rerolling wouldn't be needed and the advantage of going first only applies to the first combat turn. After that, everyone would be on equal footing. But it would suck memory-wise.
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