[DigitalZombie]

Hoi chummers,
So I know that the question on how ItNW is calculated, especially when combined with regular armour has popped up a few times before.
Im still not quite sure how RAW and RAI are precisely though.

Say the runners have an encounter with a Black Jack (a spirit in howling shadows that has the manifestation power, but regularily uses mundane armour). The encounter goes south and combat ensues.

The spirit is force 5 and has an armour rating 10 armour on.

First the spirit is hit with a 12P - ap attack.
The spirit rolls ItNW/Hardened armour and armour (force×2) +10  and on top of that gets 5 automatic successes.  (Average successes 12) Correct?

Then the spirit gets hit by a 9P  -4 ap attack.
(Force×2- 4 )+ 10 and gets 3 automatic successes on top of that. (Average successes 8 ) correct?

Lastly the spirit gets blasted by a flechette shotgun 14P +5ap.
(Force×2+5) +10 and gets 8 (rounded up?) Automatic successes.(average successes 16) correct or should it be the next one?

(Force×2) +15 and 5 automatic successes (average 12 successes).


Lastly the mage hits the spirit with a nice firebolt spell. Doping 12p -6ap damage. As its magic its ItNW doesnt apply. So it rolls (10-6=4) for 1 average success.

Or should it be something entirely else, like use either ItNW or armour ?

Asking for a free spirit friend btw.

[adzling]

not in front of books so not sure but i would let the regular armor soak normally then put the remaining damage up against the immunity to normal weapons.

this approach lets a magical weapons be affected by the regular armor but bypass the imtnw as it should.

your approach (if im reading correctly) would mean the magic attack would bypass all armor.

[PiXeL01]

I think what the OP did is correct, except he forgot to add body to the soak roll.
Honestly I cannot remember seeing it discussed in the books.

adzling, in your case would you apply the AP after the mundane armor has been rolled?
Example 2: roll 6 armor (average of 1-2 hits), compare that to ItNW with AP modification, here it would pass through, then roll 10+body for soak?

[adzling]

yeah the body armor would end up munching all the AP.

So in the OP's example it would look like this:

Attacker hits with 12P -4ap attack.

First he soaks with armor jacket rating 10: 10-4ap=soak of 6. He nets two soak successes on average reducing the damage from 12 to 10p.

If the attack is magical he only gets to soak with his body attribute.

If the attack is mundane then continue against his itnw power conferred armor:

itnw armor of 10 up against that 10P damage code.
He get 5 auto successes reducing it to 5p damage.
His armor of 10 nets 3 successes on average reducing the damage code to 2p.
He then soaks 2p with his body (probably taking no damage).

I think it would go this way because itnw is not actually armor, it's a power that acts like armor.
So therefore it would not stack with mundane armor, also it would not ignore the mundane armor because it's not actually armor but instead a power that acts like armor.

anyway that's my convoluted thought on it.

har

[Marcus]

I follow your logic with this Adzling, I'm not 100% sure that's RAW, but I think it is RAI.
I keep reading it as Stacking. The armor power says it stacks with Normal armor, and then Hardned says it work exactly the same as Armor with the addition of the hardened rules, and Immunity to normal weapons just references Hardened armor.

[adzling]

Sounds like your right

[Michael Chandra]

I follow your logic with this Adzling, I'm not 100% sure that's RAW, but I think it is RAI.
I keep reading it as Stacking. The armor power says it stacks with Normal armor, and then Hardned says it work exactly the same as Armor with the addition of the hardened rules, and Immunity to normal weapons just references Hardened armor.

To keep it fair, I just let them stack but Hardened gets hit by AP first.

[Jack_Spade]

@Michael Chandra

That's a workable solution, although it invalidates the little bit of hardened armor that Drakes get.
Splitting AP between the two armor types might be even fairer, starting with the outmost worn layer.

[DigitalZombie]

Oh Yeah, forgot body score as additional soak Dice.

yeah the body armor would end up munching all the AP.

Attacker hits with 12P -4ap attack.

First he soaks with armor jacket rating 10: 10-4ap=soak of 6. He nets two soak successes on average reducing the damage from 12 to 10p.

If the attack is mundane then continue against his itnw power conferred armor:

itnw armor of 10 up against that 10P damage code.
He get 5 auto successes reducing it to 5p damage.
His armor of 10 nets 3 successes on average reducing the damage code to 2p.

Hhmm in your example what would happen if the mundane armour managed to soak 1 more dmg, thus dropping the remaining dmg below the ItNW armour value. Technically it would be immune to the remaining dmg.


I Think I would prefer the hardened armour to be affected first by the AP,  thus lessening its power somewhat. (Though, Of course that would mean that Drakes are less powerful as well).

So the spirit would have an armour value of 20. (10 of those are hardened and 10 are normal). Any AP is applied to the hardened armour first.
If the dmg value is lower than the modified armour value, but equal to or higher than the modified hardened armour, then the damage is stun.
If the dmg is lower than the modified hardened armour, then No damage is dealt.

[Marcus]

Nothing in the rules specifies order of operation.
The RAW is pretty clearly says it stacks, but beyond that it doesn't say anything else.
Which to me says it' GM discretion.
We don't actually have drakes stated in 5th do we?

[DigitalZombie]

Drakes are in howling shadows... but they have some issues
I dont know if we have a stat block of one though.

[Marcus]

For the sake of argument say the average runner packs an Ares predator V with ex-rounds for a 9P AP -2 they have by whatever gear, stat, skill a shooting pool of 15 that gives them 5 success on average. Scaling damage up to 14P AP -2

If hardened armor target is holding still and not dodging they can punch a hole in hardened up 13, so possible something along the lines of force 6 spirit is about the top of that range, if you figure back in dodge rolls.

7 is pushing, and 8 is gonna pretty much mean they can't hurt it.

Now if you add body armor over ItNW, and start messing around with order of operations things can get more predictable as long as AP applies to non hardened armor first. In the other direction it more to player advantage.