Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: AJCarrington on <06-17-15/0638:57>
-
Chrome Flesh now available for PDF purchase and print pre-order!
The Sixth World is, of course, a horribly dystopian place, but it also is a place where people face the wondrous possibilities of making entirely new versions of themselves. Any part of the metahuman body can be replaced, and the new augmentations sourcebook Chrome Flesh (Battleshop (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=chrome+flesh&x=0&y=0), DriveThruRPG (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/151893/Shadowrun-Chrome-Flesh?src=newest_recent)) is your guide to all the possibilities. With cyberware, bioware, nanotech, genetech, and a host of new chemicals, this book gives runners dozens of ways to amp up their game–and see just how much of their humanity they’re willing to fritter away. It also comes with full tables listing all Shadowrun, Fifth Edition augmentations to this point! Here’s more info:
The Edge of the Possible
Shadowrunners cannot be limited by what their bodies can—or cannot—do. They have to do more, stretch farther, surpass any limits, and accomplish the impossible. Some runners can rely on magic; for everyone else, there are augmentations. From shiny chrome that makes your body into a humanoid semi-truck to genetech that alters you at the most fundamental level to drugs and chemicals that give you a quick and dirty boost, Chrome Flesh provides dozens of new ways to alter Shadowrun characters and make them better, stronger, faster, and altogether readier to kick ass and take names on the streets.
Along with the gear and a compiled table of all cyberware, bioware, genetech, and nanotech currently available in Shadowrun, Fifth Edition, Chrome Flesh covers how runners break down and what resources can help fix them up, and where augmentation tech might go in the future. It’s paydata every shadowrunner needs if they want to overcome everything the Sixth World is going to throw at them.
Chrome Flesh is for use with Shadowrun, Fifth Edition.
(http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ChromeFleshCoverSm-240x300.jpg?b979cc)
Edit - OP updated to reflect release announcement June 30, 2015
Some new art from Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/121672069831/chrome-flesh-art):
(http://36.media.tumblr.com/837134d679b42eea44c151f82c4801e7/tumblr_inline_nq1ia3mg2d1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/4f6cf2f85fa1fcb91db20e212033a535/tumblr_inline_nq1ia5ceTO1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
Looking pretty nice ;D
-
Ah, the infamous Tamanous Takeaway. :D
-
The art looks good, now just need the PDF to drop so I can start planning the rest of my mage's augmentations.
-
If the stars align, hopefully we'll see in time for GenCon ;)
-
Yeeeeessss. Need more shinies!
-
crunch baby!
can't wait for this book.
-
There's fluff too!
*sniffle*
Nobody ever jumps and down for that.
-
Just get it out already so we can dig into the fluff too!
-
Some more artwork from Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/122255128076/shadowrun-chrome-flesh-art):
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/e4cb5c028450a8e70590418ecea54be0/tumblr_inline_nqek8kSOQe1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/0308dbf4f00083b9980a59631744002e/tumblr_inline_nqek61oITT1s9c9hj_1280.jpg)
;D
-
well THAT'S what I call a Cybercombie ! Awesome !
Congratulations to the Artist !
with an impressed Dance
Medicineman
-
:o OMG, is he wearing a cyber frame attached to his body :o
-
Sure looks like it; interestingly, my mind went to exoskeleton from Elysium instead of cyberzombie.
-
IS that a cyberzombie? Or is it a ghoul wearing an exoskeleton?
And is that doctor going to be able to make his dodge roll?
-
Has there been any official word whether there will be more effort in the content and indexing for Chrome Flesh?
It was the most frustrating thing about Data Trails, and it would be great to fix that in the future for editing
-
Sure looks like it; interestingly, my mind went to exoskeleton from Elysium instead of cyberzombie.
Hence my comment ;D
That also looks like that one drone from 4th edition that you could wear.
-
http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/122594665201/shadowrun-chrome-flesh-off-to-print
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/1231a1f241d421446b0128ee17a03555/tumblr_inline_nqlzh48lhq1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
-
I dunno if we'll have copies available at GenCon or not. It's gonna be *close*, but I know Jason wanted to have them there.
After all the reading that went into this, I think I could do decently in a pre-med course. Gah.
So fun!
But gah.
-
let's hope they got the table of contents fixed and continue with the improvements to the editing process!
wonder when the pdf will hit drivethrurpg?
-
Very nice ;D
-
I can't say I'm a big fan of the last few covers. I really like Victor Leza's artwork, so I hope he'll be back in future books.
-
its very nice, but i wish that the cover would show maybe more... you know... chrome flesh? all you see is a cyberarm and its not even the one closest to you. maybe should have been a torso and or arm....
-
Sadly, I can't give details (NDA and all that!), but just thought you'd like to know that you're not just getting updated 4th ed stuff, but new stuff as well. There's brand-new bits of cyberware alone, on top of bringing most of the 4th ed stuff in, a bit of gear not seen since 1st edition, and some wireless things.
Plus fluff, Glorious, glorious fluff.
And, chummer, the art in this is *so* pretty. I don't know where they find 'em all, but I'm tres jealous. I got ideas for at least four characters just from the art inside.
I'm hyped to get myself a copy, that's for dang sure.
-
*grabby hands*
-
I really wish the tumbler had not said that the PDF will be available very soon, as now I'm checking every hour or so to see if it dropped. My wife is getting annoyed with me.
-
I really wish the tumbler had not said that the PDF will be available very soon, as now I'm checking every hour or so to see if it dropped. My wife is getting annoyed with me.
I know the feeling...
-
While you're waiting, is there anything that you're hoping will be there in particular?
-
Advanced medtech rules. Toxins, drugs, and other chemicals. Something that makes cyberlimbs more attractive choices, because without the ability to affect movement rate and/or physical limit they are essentially expensive containers at the moment. Cyberzombie rules and background material. Type O or similar qualities that allow a street samurai to pack more chrome into the WEAK FLESH! *ehem*
More ware, though I hope that's a given :)
-
My mage is always on the lookout for more toys to fit into her arm.
Honestly I'd love to see odds and ends for cyberlimbs, things like a fingertip lighters, flashlights. The return of autoinjectors, would love to see the option to use them with fingertip needles in addition to personal use. Cyberlimb optimization. Headware modifications, more earware.
-
Oh, something to give the much more expensive cybereyes and cyberears an edge over vision and audio devices with enhancements beyond "they can't be taken away from you". If an implanted smartlink is inherently better than a non implanted smartlink, I think applying the same principle to cybereyes and cyberears will make them much more attractive options for a wider range of people.
As it stands, you almost never see character builds like the iconic street samurai with implanted senses because you can get the same benefit for less by buying contacts, glasses or goggles, and ear buds or headphones. The only ear or eyeware exclusives are ocular drones, retinal duplication, dampers, and balance augmenter.
-
It is sad that my mage has a better cyber eyes and ears setup than many of the Sam's I've run with.
-
Having it all Implanted costs such a frickin fortune too. Cyber is so damn expensive in this edition, would be nice if there were some useful mods that didn't break the bank
-
Having it all Implanted costs such a frickin fortune too. Cyber is so damn expensive in this edition, would be nice if there were some useful mods that didn't break the bank
So, how would "Over 20 bits of cybertech under a thousand Nuyen" sound?
-
So, how would "Over 20 bits of cybertech under a thousand Nuyen" sound?
Like Gun H(e)aven for Augmentations.
-
So, how would "Over 20 bits of cybertech under a thousand Nuyen" sound?
Like Gun H(e)aven for Augmentations.
... I hope that's a positive reaction. :D
-
That may have sounded more ambiguous than intended.
GH, to me, usually comes out with a few low ball and a few high ball firearms. I like the former, because I think it provides room to flesh out what street scum use, where, and why. Not everything falls within shadowrunner optimal gear range, and you don't need to dig into srs explaining on how scum can find / afford / keep it.
The stuff that raises the bar on shadowrunner gear, not so much. Spy gear always gets a pass, though.
-
Just click the release button already instead of stalling and teasing ^^
Implants have always been my favorite part of SR and Cyberpunk.
Just too bad that some of the more exotic stuff (two additional limbs, anyone) never made an appearance
-
hehe
We want our 'Ware! (with a searchable index or table of contents).
rabble rabble
I kid I kid!
-
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/151893/Shadowrun-Chrome-Flesh
-
And lo', he raised his hands to the heavens, and the Machine Gods graced him with gifts beyond his dreams! He would go forth to glories victories, chrome and shiny!
-
OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG
-
Hard copy pre-orders also up:
BattleCorps - Chrome Flesh (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Flesh&x=0&y=0)
;D
-
Holy cats. That was fast!
Well then, get to buyin', you slots! I'm up for a few hours yet today, and I'll be available tomorrow afternoon, so, feel free to question after you read.
(Egads, upstairs! You people are like lightnin'!)
-
Won't get any work done the rest of the day I fear
-
I expect that by the next time I view this post that the PDF will be up...
Wait, what? It's up already? Well that's convenient...
Guess I don't have anything to keep complaining about...
-
My mage is always on the lookout for more toys to fit into her arm.
Honestly I'd love to see odds and ends for cyberlimbs,
Yup!
things like a fingertip lighters, flashlights.
Yup and yup!
The return of autoinjectors,
Yup!
would love to see the option to use them with fingertip needles in addition to personal use.
Yup!
Cyberlimb optimization.
Yup!
Headware modifications,
Yup!
more earware.
Yup!
Looks like a clean sweep for ONE person at the least. :D
-
Advanced medtech rules. Toxins, drugs, and other chemicals.
Yup!
Something that makes cyberlimbs more attractive choices, because without the ability to affect movement rate and/or physical limit they are essentially expensive containers at the moment.
Yup!
Cyberzombie rules and background material.
... Not sure on this one. Ack. The background is touched on, but I haven't looked over the big stuff at the end yet. So... maybe?
Type O or similar qualities that allow a street samurai to pack more chrome into the WEAK FLESH! *ehem*
Yup!
More ware, though I hope that's a given :)
And Yup. So, maybe not QUITE a clean sweep, but hopefully you'll be happy. :)
-
So.. it seems the datajack debate has been answered... one of the cyberware bundles comes with 3 datajacks.
-
So.. it seems the datajack debate has been answered... one of the cyberware bundles comes with 3 datajacks.
I'm not familiar with the Datajack Debate. Could you summarize it for me?
(Multi-jacks were normal in older editions. Each one was dedicated to a Thing after all. For instance, one for your Smartgun, one for your Cyberdeck, and one for your external data storage device.)
-
it's the debate about whether multiple datajacks should compound the noise reduction.
-
Ahh minute leave for work, PDF goes on sale lol. Quick flash thu and seeing everything I wanted and so much more! Not much saw on cyberzombies first pass, get better look tommorow. Good stuff so far though.
-
AH! I don't *believe* that multi-jacks would stack, BUT, there's now a cyber-ear mod that will.
.
(My personal menatl image is akin to this:)
http://img06.deviantart.net/7b64/i/2010/174/a/c/mecha_manga_girl_by_psssking.jpg
.
(Your milage may vary, of course!)
-
AWESOME! I know what I'm doing at work tomorrow...
...
Working, you slags. That's what allows me to buy all these neato books! :)
9 out of 10 is acceptable Waskhaani :D
-
So have 5e cybersuites been quietly put to pasture, and replaced with augmentation bundles?
-
So have 5e cybersuites been quietly put to pasture, and replaced with augmentation bundles?
Cybersuites popped up in Lockdown, just before the cybernetics chapter for Chrome Flesh was being wrapped up. I had no clue that they were going to be over there, so, a quick re-jiggering was needed unless we wanted another situation where the same gear was posted in two+ places with different rules. The easy solution was to rename the Chrome Flesh work, letting them stand separately from the Lockdown work.
Lack of communication from two different teams that almost got bad.
So, two different things with different rules that are similar to one another but not quite the same.
There might be Bioware Bundles in the future, but they'll need a ruleset as well, since the Augmentation Bundle rule doesn't work with them for obvious reasons. :) I'd like to create some more in the future, at any rate.
-
Yah; I was hoping for a full cyberlimb body, seeing as Lockdown played coy by offering full limbs with orthoskin, vs partial limbs with torso & skull.
-
So... I guess it needs to be asked.
Can a character gain advantages of both Adapsin gene treatment and Biocombatability (Cyberware)?
Sure Adapsin it outside the normal Availability, but for a street sam might be worth a Restricted Gear.
-
*eyetwitch* Skillwires are still Rating x 20K? huh? Why??
-
Honk if you love Internal Routers.
-
So... I guess it needs to be asked.
Can a character gain advantages of both Adapsin gene treatment and Biocombatability (Cyberware)?
Sure Adapsin it outside the normal Availability, but for a street sam might be worth a Restricted Gear.
They Stacked in 4th but Adapsin was so new then that it was flat out denied during Chargen even with the Restricted Gear Quality. With how they restructured 'ware costs to be so front loaded & Grades being much cheaper as well as Adapsin not being so new... it stacks & can be gotten with the Restricted Gear Quality (yes... another piece of 'ware besides a Pain Editor worth getting)
-
Honk if you love Internal Routers.
I can't because... well I don't really 'get' it.
-
Honk if you love Internal Routers.
I can't because... well I don't really 'get' it.
I think it is for those items that have some kind of wireless bonus.. but don't really need to go out to the Matrix to provide that bonus..
For example, wireless bonuses on Cyberlimb Accessories like Cyber Holsters, Cyberarm Gyro Mounts, Hydraulic Jacks..
At least that is how I read it..
-
If it is... I think I can hear the deckers drawing breath for a collective howl of rage.
-
Why are Nanotattoos 12F? Seems kind of odd for something so cosmetic.. I could understand the Rating 3 version being.. restricted.. but Forbidden?
-
Camouflage
Nanotattoos can provide effective camouflage, if
you have a full body treatment and you’re not wearing
much, imposing a –1 dice pool modifier to Perception
tests to detect you visually.
-
Honk if you love Internal Routers.
I can't because... well I don't really 'get' it.
I think it is for those items that have some kind of wireless bonus.. but don't really need to go out to the Matrix to provide that bonus..
For example, wireless bonuses on Cyberlimb Accessories like Cyber Holsters, Cyberarm Gyro Mounts, Hydraulic Jacks..
At least that is how I read it..
I think it is more to do with cyberware that must be online to be compatible should as Reflex Enhancers and Wired. The router does not cover normal wireless bonuses I think.
-
Hmm, also noticed they halved the cost of Skilljacks.
-
Why are Nanotattoos 12F? Seems kind of odd for something so cosmetic.. I could understand the Rating 3 version being.. restricted.. but Forbidden?
Nanos have become very unfriendly little bastards lately... carrying CFD and all. Maybe that's a reflection of it... just guessing cause I have no other real ideas.
-
Why are Nanotattoos 12F? Seems kind of odd for something so cosmetic.. I could understand the Rating 3 version being.. restricted.. but Forbidden?
So, If Your char got some Nanotattos a few Years ago, when they were Hip,Cool and Legal, He now gets arrested for being Tatooed ???
Is that supposed to be funny , Sad ,or a Facepalm ? (I'm really not sure....)
with an unsure Dance
Medicineman
-
Why are Nanotattoos 12F? Seems kind of odd for something so cosmetic.. I could understand the Rating 3 version being.. restricted.. but Forbidden?
So, If Your char got some Nanotattos a few Years ago, when they were Hip,Cool and Legal, He now gets arrested for being Tatooed ???
Is that supposed to be funny , Sad ,or a Facepalm ? (I'm really not sure....)
with an unsure Dance
Medicineman
Well, plus there's the whole thing of no-one actually legally sells this stuff anymore.
-
Hmm, also noticed they halved the cost of Skilljacks.
Oh.. ok so they did make one part of the system cheaper though not to the extreme that the German book listed.
Oh! Custom drugs. Can finally make that Drop Trooper from David Weber's Furies series (Path of the Fury and In Fury Born) with their "Tick" combat drug.
-
Loved the opening fiction, and the half page sidebar explaining the chapters is a big help.
OK, I've just got the pdf and only just started reading it, but that opening story was brilliant!
-
Woah.. Uncanny Healer on a Technomancer or Mage.. heal up that Fade/Drain damage REALLY fast.
-
AH! I don't *believe* that multi-jacks would stack, BUT, there's now a cyber-ear mod that will.
.
(My personal menatl image is akin to this:)
http://img06.deviantart.net/7b64/i/2010/174/a/c/mecha_manga_girl_by_psssking.jpg
.
(Your milage may vary, of course!)
Even with all the goodness of the new book (just downloaded, but work and all... :-[), I'm still drawn to pretty pictures...sigh... ;)
-
Honk if you love Internal Routers.
I can't because... well I don't really 'get' it.
I think it is for those items that have some kind of wireless bonus.. but don't really need to go out to the Matrix to provide that bonus..
For example, wireless bonuses on Cyberlimb Accessories like Cyber Holsters, Cyberarm Gyro Mounts, Hydraulic Jacks..
At least that is how I read it..
Sounds interesting. I had understood that wireless bonuses came for two reasons, the in world one of needing extra processing power/information from the matrix, and the game reason of being hackable (though to be fair, that requires so many actions as to be incredibly niche - maybe handy against Cyberzombies). By that logic they either shouldn't ever need the matrix, and have no wireless bonuses, or should need the matrix and should get them. Of course, some of the wireless bonuses looked a little hard to justify on that basis.
-
yeah i noticed that too, good move imho.
Also the Renraku skillwires package gives a little essence discount for rating 4 wires.
nice!
Hmm, also noticed they halved the cost of Skilljacks.
-
yeah i noticed that too, good move imho.
Also the Renraku skillwires package gives a little essence discount for rating 4 wires.
nice!
Hmm, also noticed they halved the cost of Skilljacks.
Also interesting to note that Rating 3 Move by Wire pulls ahead of equivalent Wired Reflexes + Skill Wires set in terms of Essence cost as well as price.
-
*eyetwitch* Skillwires are still Rating x 20K? huh? Why??
Skilljacks went to half price, while SKillwires dropped in Availability (You can now start with Skilljack 6 and Skillwires 4, for instance, as both are Availability 12) ... Activesofts were a tad cheaper, but playtesting showed that it was a touch too low.
Still, you can now start eyeballing a break-even point on being a Skillwire Junkie that doesn't completely end you, while the reduced cost of the Skilljack will allow some better use of Knowsofts. Dropping 20K for a Rating 2 system that allows you to nabe cheap linguasofts, for example, aint' a bad deal.
-
Yah; I was hoping for a full cyberlimb body, seeing as Lockdown played coy by offering full limbs with orthoskin, vs partial limbs with torso & skull.
There's some of that in the 4th ed Augmentation book, but we didn't quite pull the trigger on it THIS time due to complications of the Nanopocalypse. That kind of a full-body transfer needs Nanotech in spades to pull off and it's a tad tricky at this stage. Trust me, I'd love to have a brain "pod" that could be moved from one body to another ... This is my fleshy CEO-bod for business meetings. This is my "Light combat" mod for foiling assassination attempts in public. This is my "You figured it out, too bad you'll never leave here alive to tell anyone" full-on combat bod, and so on, buuuut, not quite yet.
But you can get the new and improved Synthskin on your limbs, to better pass for Metahuman, so that's good, and the Partial Skull's handy. (I would personally like to have had more room for mods in a full skull and torso, tho. But, that's neither her nor there.)
The new Limnal options can give you a taste of post-human modification, however!
-
Well, the answer is interesting, but that's cranial containment units, drone bodies, and brain-in-a-drone cyborgs.
I still want internal organs in a cyber torso, for whatever reason. ;)
Are partial skulls obvious or synthetic? (either?) Why do they have as much capacity as an obvious cyberskull? (4)
Where does the [8] capacity False Face fit? (ditto [6] capacity junkyard jaw?)
-
I haven't gotten my copy yet--can someone tell me if radar sensor made it in?
-
Kincaid
It did. Pages 81 and 82.
-
Wireless Skillsoft Networks!
"You know how to fly one of those things?"
[one download later]
"I do now"
-
Over all I like it, the Fluff is very good, lots of good talk and it's always nice when we get a new face on the ol'jack point. The 'ware is good, the only i was sad to not see was the cyberarm sword. I like Augmentation Bundles for a list of reasons. If anything I feel like the Advantages and disadds are straight up too good. The nano and biotech stuff is interesting, some of which is totally new, and should open up some interesting paths.
-
Well, the answer is interesting, but that's cranial containment units, drone bodies, and brain-in-a-drone cyborgs.
I still want internal organs in a cyber torso, for whatever reason. ;)
Are partial skulls obvious or synthetic? (either?) Why do they have as much capacity as an obvious cyberskull? (4)
Where does the [8] capacity False Face fit? (ditto [6] capacity junkyard jaw?)
Partial skull is Obvious (It's the classic half-head chrome plate from, like, a bajillion movies) and is designed to have stuff added to it, thus the higher capacity. Ideally, you'd plug several Headware upgrades into it, or a single Eye and a single Ear, and so on.
The False Face and Junkyard Jaw capacity ... d'oh. That's still in there from an earlier draft, where I could have *sworn* that the Cyber Skull had a Capacity of 8. My bad. :( Might be able to get a mod-friendly Skull in the future that could handle them. That one's on me. :(
And I *nearly* added a whole suite of internal organs, but backed off as time was getting TIGHT and my wordcount was already obscene. Who knows? Maybe we'll get a yearly book like before (The SOTA series) and I can slide 'em in then.
I, for one, would like to see the Skull and Torso get their Capacity increased so that you could stuff more toys in there.
-
To be fair, Wakshaani, torsos and skulls are just shells anyway :)
/snark
And I would buy the hell out of a new SOTA book. You write it, I'll buy it. But PLEASE go back to the actually useful Table of Contents. Pretty please with a thermal detonator on top?
-
Not my department, but I'll pass it up the chain. :)
-
Agreed. Data trails and chrome flesh have useless toc and no index.
-
Came in this thread specifically to bitch about the table of contents. It's the worst.
-
Too much useless fluff with Jackpoint user comments. Table of Contents is horrible. Drug section was nice. Qualities may or may not be game breaking for some builds. Useless Technomancer complex form. Like previous books, very obvious editing errors are abundant.
-
yeah, less than impressed with the new TOC, makes finding what you're after a real PITA
-
Editor is still out to lunch.
I wonder if he will ever return.
But I guess he was never here, I mean core and s.g. were a horror show compared to this.
I wonder what if catalysts battle tech books suffer similarly?
-
To all...I passed the feedback along regarding the ToC (for both Chrome Flesh and Data Trails) to Jason this morning...he is aware. I believe that time constraints were the main reason for not including more detailed versions... :( They are considering releasing PDF indices, but no time frame at the moment.
-
About the Negative Quality: Cyber-Snob p.57
"A character must have at least 1 point worth of Essence of betaware-grade cyberware or bioware to be able to take this quality."
Last time I checked, your not allowed to start play with Beta-grade ware, so why make a flaw that requires it?
Or am I missing something?
About the Positive Quality: Biocompatibility p.54
"the Essence cost of implants of the particular chosen type are reduced by ten percent, rounded down to the tenth."
Really? That would mean that something like a datajack would round down to 0 (.1*.9 = .09 which this would round down to 0) Is this really intended?
-
Question about the Custom Cyberweapon. It says it increases the Availability but is that added to the base type (Cyber Heavy Pistol) or to the Ares Predator V?
As for the ToC, there are programs out there that'd do this automatically.
-
About the Negative Quality: Cyber-Snob p.57
"A character must have at least 1 point worth of Essence of betaware-grade cyberware or bioware to be able to take this quality."
Last time I checked, your not allowed to start play with Beta-grade ware, so why make a flaw that requires it?
Or am I missing something?
It's a good way to help pay off Restricted Gear I'm guessing?
-
About the Negative Quality: Cyber-Snob p.57
"A character must have at least 1 point worth of Essence of betaware-grade cyberware or bioware to be able to take this quality."
Last time I checked, your not allowed to start play with Beta-grade ware, so why make a flaw that requires it?
Or am I missing something?
It's a good way to help pay off Restricted Gear I'm guessing?
Except, Restricted Gear doesn't give you access to Beta, it only increases the availability you can start with (Not the grade of cyber/bio-ware).
-
Good point. NFC!
-
To all...I passed the feedback along regarding the ToC (for both Chrome Flesh and Data Trails) to Jason this morning...he is aware. I believe that time constraints were the main reason for not including more detailed versions... :( They are considering releasing PDF indices, but no time frame at the moment.
Well, for my money, pass along to Jason that a good book is more than Jackpoint fluff. I really like Shadowrun and I am currently enjoying a 5e game, but this edition seems plagued with shoddy or absent editorial oversight and flat cheap/lazy production. Crunch heavy games need things like toc/indexes. Data trails seems almost unusable to me because of it, and it sounds like this one is just a bad. Produce professional quality if you want me to pay for these bloody books!
-
Terrible ToC and no index...an affront to my researcher sensibilities.
And I notice the street sammies didn't get the sweet upgrade option the awakened got for foci in Street Grimoire. Here's my shocked face. >:(
-
What upgrade option are you talking about?
-
Question about the Custom Cyberweapon. It says it increases the Availability but is that added to the base type (Cyber Heavy Pistol) or to the Ares Predator V?
As for the ToC, there are programs out there that'd do this automatically.
Added to the Weapon (for example, the Ares Predator) ... you're requesting a specific weapon be modified into a cybergun, rather than a cybergun be changed into a specific weapon. (Odd distinction, but it matters) ... IN effect, you're having them saw off the grip of a Predator, then kid the butt up with cybernetic connector ports, then adding a few more tweaks to get it ready for use.
-
What upgrade option are you talking about?
He's referring to the ability to upgrade an existing Foci from say a 2 to a 3 without replacing the Foci. There was hope that we'd be able to upgrade an existing piece of cyber, say Wired Reflexes 1 to 2, without having to just pull the old ones and replace them with entirely new ones at full price.
-
About the Negative Quality: Cyber-Snob p.57
"A character must have at least 1 point worth of Essence of betaware-grade cyberware or bioware to be able to take this quality."
Last time I checked, your not allowed to start play with Beta-grade ware, so why make a flaw that requires it?
Or am I missing something?
Got in Proofing, slipped through the crack in the time crunch. :(
Suggested edit is to replace BETA with ALPHA in all instances, then lower the points from teh quality. I'd say 8, others think 8... we'll see.
Regardless, this should be in the errata. (And, for everyone, there will be errata, so any issues you find, LET US KNOW! The more you find, the more we can fix.)
About the Positive Quality: Biocompatibility p.54
"the Essence cost of implants of the particular chosen type are reduced by ten percent, rounded down to the tenth."
Really? That would mean that something like a datajack would round down to 0 (.1*.9 = .09 which this would round down to 0) Is this really intended?
Badly written. The goal was to take, say, Alpha's 0.8 and reduce it to 0.72, which would be 0.7, but the phrasing on that was awful. The exact wording will come in errata, but it should read something like:
"Reduce Essence Loss from 'ware by an additional 10%, thus Alpha (Normally an Essence Cost of 0.8, ould become an Essence Cost of 0.7".
It'll make your read much better.
Shadowrun players can handle two digit Essence. At least I hope so, I have a bunch of 0.05 things in there!
-
Upgrading the rating or quality of ware, I believe. Mages can upgrade foci under very specific circumstances as of Street Grimoire, but to go from one rating to the next and/or go from alpha to beta grade you as a street samurai you must rip out the old system, selling it for whatever you can get, and then implant the new system.
Easy enough to house rule, but I'd personally like to see this officially supported, because some ware options are just completely out of reach otherwise, and there's only so much essence to go around.
-
"Upgrading an Existing Focus", p. 230, Street Grimoire. I had held out hope that something similar would come around for augmentations, because mundanes really need the help.
-
Well Missions FAQ already has a 30% trade in for augmentations...
-
Well Missions FAQ already has a 30% trade in for augmentations...
That's a poor substitute for the deal mages get with foci: Only a 20% nuyen upcharge for the difference in cost, then pay the difference in karma, and no Availability test at all, so a mage can buy a Force 1 at its Availability and just keep upgrading it as much as they want.
-
Just finished reading most of this on a flight.
Crazy amount of fluff, insane really.
IMHO catalyst should focus more on writing solid rules and decent editing.
The fluff is out of control, especially for what should have been a crunch focussed book.
-
Just something I'm wondering about... does the quality Prototype Transhuman allow you to take Cultured Bioware, or just basic?
-
Just something I'm wondering about... does the quality Prototype Transhuman allow you to take Cultured Bioware, or just basic?
It just says bioware so I'd think either. Not much of a prototype if you just get basic. My question would be if you are still limited to 12 availability.
-
I feel that the >15 pages of compiled tables that include page references are a pretty good substitute for a classical index. A real TOC would have been great, though.
-
Question:
The Shiawase Kacho Bundle has a datajack plus an image link and a sound link. The way I understood this in the past is that a datajack coupled with a sim module in your deck / commlink would make the different image / sound / touch / etc. links unneccesary because that stuff could just be overlayed via simsense. Is that wrong?
-
And, for everyone, there will be errata, so any issues you find, LET US KNOW! The more you find, the more we can fix.
As the chrome&flesh has a chapter about drugs this would be quite a good time to give some official wording about the Addiction Rules. They are discussed in the german as well as the english version quite a lot and recently here:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21130.0
and further back here http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11865.0
It would be really cool to just drop a sentence or two clarifying on how the addiction rules are meant to be. Thanks in advance! Also if it is intented that you can choose less addicting BTL's for your BTL addiction as well as when a test is required and when the addiction threshold decreases and what happens when you use a lot of drugs in a week vs one dose and why a single BTL can't be used over and over again.
-
The difference is that you can send data from the sense links, like a simrig sans emotive track.
-
So, if the errata comes out with a table on contents, will the pdf be updated?
I'm worried I buy thr pdf now, and in a month I get an extra page I can print out and tack onto a wall. I much prefer digitally interlinked indexes, like the CRB had.
-
From Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/122884796931/chrome-flesh-now-available), some additional artwork:
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/42a6f94e1dc69cc1fbfed5e45a717c40/tumblr_inline_nqs1gnsZg41s9c9hj_500.jpg)
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/24f624cbe12cb22fbc0af7fbc174a835/tumblr_inline_nqs1huPrbE1s9c9hj_1280.jpg)
Well, for my money, pass along to Jason that a good book is more than Jackpoint fluff. I really like Shadowrun and I am currently enjoying a 5e game, but this edition seems plagued with shoddy or absent editorial oversight and flat cheap/lazy production. Crunch heavy games need things like toc/indexes. Data trails seems almost unusable to me because of it, and it sounds like this one is just a bad. Produce professional quality if you want me to pay for these bloody books!
So noted.
So, if the errata comes out with a table on contents, will the pdf be updated?
I'm worried I buy thr pdf now, and in a month I get an extra page I can print out and tack onto a wall. I much prefer digitally interlinked indexes, like the CRB had.
Honestly don't know...but that would be my preference.
-
Just something I'm wondering about... does the quality Prototype Transhuman allow you to take Cultured Bioware, or just basic?
It can be cultured
-
Just something I'm wondering about... does the quality Prototype Transhuman allow you to take Cultured Bioware, or just basic?
It can be cultured
Ooooo... that does make for some interesting ideas.
-
@CatalystLabs -- hey guys just FYI, but it looks like there is an issue with your domain registrar for Battleshop -- getting the following when I go to purchase: "NOTICE: This domain name expired on 6/30/2015 and is pending renewal or deletion."
Easily fixed - and you probably are aware, but just a heads up! I've got my creds ready to go - no rush! I'm guessing Paizo must have hired a team to take down your server... ;)
-
Editor is still out to lunch.
I wonder if he will ever return.
But I guess he was never here, I mean core and s.g. were a horror show compared to this.
I wonder what if catalysts battle tech books suffer similarly?
The actual Table Top books... No, they are the comprehensive & organized dream I've always wanted! The RPG... A Time for War book, what a nightmare! There were at least 3 different editions with zero labeling. We found out after arguing the first night cause the GM had 1 edition & I had the other so he was saying that I and the 2 others I helped build their characters were cheating cause they were definitely better that the 2 guys he had helped. We finally figured it out when I was explaining how we had built ours that the rules were different in some key areas. So then I went and downloaded a new copy thinking it would be the same as his, but the 3rd copy was different from both other ones. It was an aggravating night and we had to spend it rebuilding everyone's characters from the 3rd copy since me & GM both had that one.
-
About the Negative Quality: Cyber-Snob p.57
"A character must have at least 1 point worth of Essence of betaware-grade cyberware or bioware to be able to take this quality."
Last time I checked, your not allowed to start play with Beta-grade ware, so why make a flaw that requires it?
Or am I missing something?
It's a good way to help pay off Restricted Gear I'm guessing?
Except, Restricted Gear doesn't give you access to Beta, it only increases the availability you can start with (Not the grade of cyber/bio-ware).
That's been a problem since 4th edition of that Qualities failure to be comprehensive enough. They need to Errata that into Restricted Gear or at least give us a separate Quality which will let us break the Used, Standard, Alpha Restrictions for Chargen without needing a sensible houserule to cover for it.
-
About the Positive Quality: Biocompatibility p.54
"the Essence cost of implants of the particular chosen type are reduced by ten percent, rounded down to the tenth."
Really? That would mean that something like a datajack would round down to 0 (.1*.9 = .09 which this would round down to 0) Is this really intended?
This is just poorly written... considering the massive amounts of stuff they Cut & Pasted from 4th Edition that made absolutely no sense, I have no idea why didn't copy & pasted this.
"Biocompatibility
Cost: 10 BP
Something about the character’s body is exceptionally accept- ing of either bioware or cyberware implants (choose one). Not only are the implants not rejected, but they seamlessly fit within the body, having less impact on its holistic integrity. In game terms, the Essence Cost of implants of the particular chosen type are re- duced by 10 percent. This reduction does not apply to genetech. This quality may only be taken once."
Explains it's a .1 reduction just fine without a poorly written Word Problem to cause bad Math.
-
And I would buy the hell out of a new SOTA book. You write it, I'll buy it.
Especially if it carried with it a retcon removal of the anti-nanotech path that got taken.
-
This is just poorly written... considering the massive amounts of stuff they Cut & Pasted from 4th Edition that made absolutely no sense, I have no idea why didn't copy & pasted this.
"Biocompatibility
Cost: 10 BP
Something about the character’s body is exceptionally accept- ing of either bioware or cyberware implants (choose one). Not only are the implants not rejected, but they seamlessly fit within the body, having less impact on its holistic integrity. In game terms, the Essence Cost of implants of the particular chosen type are re- duced by 10 percent. This reduction does not apply to genetech. This quality may only be taken once."
Explains it's a .1 reduction just fine without a poorly written Word Problem to cause bad Math.
Zhoul,
This was replied to earlier in the thread:
About the Positive Quality: Biocompatibility p.54
"the Essence cost of implants of the particular chosen type are reduced by ten percent, rounded down to the tenth."
Really? That would mean that something like a datajack would round down to 0 (.1*.9 = .09 which this would round down to 0) Is this really intended?
Badly written. The goal was to take, say, Alpha's 0.8 and reduce it to 0.72, which would be 0.7, but the phrasing on that was awful. The exact wording will come in errata, but it should read something like:
"Reduce Essence Loss from 'ware by an additional 10%, thus Alpha (Normally an Essence Cost of 0.8, ould become an Essence Cost of 0.7".
It'll make your read much better.
Shadowrun players can handle two digit Essence. At least I hope so, I have a bunch of 0.05 things in there!
-
Regardless, this should be in the errata. (And, for everyone, there will be errata, so any issues you find, LET US KNOW! The more you find, the more we can fix.)
P.165 Reaction Optimization.
"This augmentation
has no effect by itself and does not give additional
bonuses for higher Ratings of reaction enhancers. "
Higher than what? If its rating 1, then "Only works with Rating 1" would be the way to spell it out.
-
I noticed that too, something was lost in translation ;-0
-
I read that as meaning that optimization is +1 no matter what level REs you have. It's flat; it doesn't scale.
-
I read that as meaning that optimization is +1 no matter what level REs you have. It's flat; it doesn't scale.
Exactly, it is a flat +1 bonus on top of the rating of your REs.
-
"Upgrading an Existing Focus", p. 230, Street Grimoire. I had held out hope that something similar would come around for augmentations, because mundanes really need the help.
you just want to upgrade Sam-7 some more :p
-
To all...I passed the feedback along regarding the ToC (for both Chrome Flesh and Data Trails) to Jason this morning...he is aware. I believe that time constraints were the main reason for not including more detailed versions... :( They are considering releasing PDF indices, but no time frame at the moment.
Can we stop getting excuses and get quality products some time in the near future? Would be nice.
1. Stop shoving CFD in our faces. Most people don't like it (I'm one of the few that think's it's neat). How about proper campaign books instead of dozens of pages of "here's CFD weather you like it or not" that could have been devoted to rules, gear, tables, qualities, and in-depth explanations of stuff you lot have STILL yet to explain. You give us pages on drugs, and where's the more in-depth rules and look at addiction?
2. Also, hire a decent editor for a change that actually does his or her job instead of letting things like a table's column being listed as "essence" when it was supposed to be availability.
3. These ToC's are impossible to navigate, and utterly useless. Stop it. Seriously. We're sick of it.
There's my feedback.
-
Can we stop getting excuses and get quality products some time in the near future? Would be nice.
1. Stop shoving CFD in our faces. Most people don't like it (I'm one of the few that think's it's neat). How about proper campaign books instead of dozens of pages of "here's CFD weather you like it or not" that could have been devoted to rules, gear, tables, qualities, and in-depth explanations of stuff you lot have STILL yet to explain. You give us pages on drugs, and where's the more in-depth rules and look at addiction?
2. Also, hire a decent editor for a change that actually does his or her job instead of letting things like a table's column being listed as "essence" when it was supposed to be availability.
3. These ToC's are impossible to navigate, and utterly useless. Stop it. Seriously. We're sick of it.
There's my feedback.
So noted.
-
3 books devoted to CFD is a bit much imho.
Isn't that a line editor's job to remove such redundancies and ensure content is not lop-sided?
I just think the line editor is not experienced enough to manage the content and or editing process.
Something's been going wrong for what, 2 years now.
That's a lot of time to get things right....
It makes me think Catalyst isn't even listening.
All would be forgiven (well most of it anyway) if they wen't back and updated the PDFs to incorporate the errata and fix the editing issues.
But we all know that won't happen as it won't make them any money.
-
All would be forgiven (well most of it anyway) if they wen't back and updated the PDFs to incorporate the errata and fix the editing issues.
But we all know that won't happen as it won't make them any money.
That's hard to be certain on. The counter factual of how many more people would take up the game if there were fewer issues is unknown.
-
Fair 'nuff Darzil.
-
So, the chapters that are all-fluff, we see a lot of pushback against. Noted.
Now, what about the crunch chapters? There's a lot of fluff in those as well ... is the balance closer to what you'd like to see? Is there too much fluff in, say, teh Cybernetic chapter? Not enough in the Bioware? About right?
A fluff-free book of nothing but lines of stats is never gonna happen, but getting the right *balance* is important.
(Also waiting a few weeks for people to start reading more of the fluff, to see what they think of THOSE parts. We're writers! We have fragile egos.)
-
Well, In my humble opinion the fluff is great. It's just too abundant. I love the little fluff and shadowtalk about each product, yet the 20-30 pages ahead of it (might be exaggerating here) just drowns you sometimes.
It's been written before but maybe cut back a bit on world building in the crunch books?
-
"Upgrading an Existing Focus", p. 230, Street Grimoire. I had held out hope that something similar would come around for augmentations, because mundanes really need the help.
you just want to upgrade Sam-7 some more :p
Guilty, because she still can't hang with the magical runners out there, and at current prices she'd need a quarter-million nuyen for her next upgrade and a half-million nuyen to be competitive. She goes near the end of the initiative pass almost every time (short of the occasional matrix character who's still not in VR yet), and GMs are scared enough of her that they'll spend Edge to avoid her single-target attacks before they'll spend against the usual Force 10+ area spells. She's basically the Eiryss of SR--almost useful but scares people so much that they throw half their forces just to hold her off and ignore the rest.
-
Agree 100% with the statement below.
The fluff is pretty good, it's just WAY.TOO.MUCH. for a crunch book.
I keep flipping looking for the ware and didn't find it until the last 3rd of the book, which made me go WTF?!
This was made more difficult because someone decided "hey they don't need a TOC, we can save some time there!".
A little fluff mixed in with the crunch is good, go back and look at gunheaven3.
That was the format that ChromeFlesh should have followed imho.
Also spreading CFD across 3 books is nuts imho.
It should have all been wrapped into the Boston Lockdown campaign book for people that want to incorporate CFD into their campaigns much as Ghost Cartels did with the Tempo drug.
Instead we get CFD taking over multiple books like it's own little self-replicating nano-virus.
I half expect it to continue replicating and take over my Core book and Street Grimoire soon...which might not be a bad thing if it fixed the editing and content issues in those books at the same time....
Well, In my humble opinion the fluff is great. It's just too abundant. I love the little fluff and shadowtalk about each product, yet the 20-30 pages ahead of it (might be exaggerating here) just drowns you sometimes.
It's been written before but maybe cut back a bit on world building in the crunch books?
-
I don't have a problem so much with the amount of fluff as much as how the fluff and crunch get mixed together.
For example:
SYNCH
Synch is a nootropic protein that affects cognitive abilities in the brain cells of the visual cortex. This enhances intuitive comprehension and pattern recognition abilities. Characters receive a +1 dice pool on all Perception tests. In addition, recipients accustomed to combat situations develop a battle awareness based on moves, which allows them respond and adapt quickly to their opponent’s fighting style. When in combat the character receives +1 dice pool modifier on combat tests against each opponent after the enemy’s first attack. This enhancement is incompatible with dynomitan.
I don't like having fluff and crunch mixed together in the same paragraph. My personal preference would be to have the nice fluffy description paragraph followed by the game effect in a separate paragraph and/or bullets.
Note: The above sample was taken at random.
-
I second Jim's comment above.
I love the fiction so far in Chrome Flesh; you guys are writers and it shows. That's my positive take from the book.
For the constructive criticism, I'd suggest splitting rules and fiction. Look at Arsenal from 4th Edition, or Augmentation, or Street Magic. For the most part, those books have dedicated chapters or introduction sections for the fiction pieces and "here's how x works in the setting from an in-game perspective", and then there's gear and rules for them without any more fuss.
To my mind, that's a better layout. To my mind, the worst case scenario I've seen so far is Stolen Souls, which was extremely short on mechanics and had pages and pages of fiction. The best case from 5th Edition so far is Run Faster, in my opinion.
-
I have to echo the statement below, the writing is good.
It just needs a much better editor and line editor imho.
...you guys are writers and it shows. That's my positive take from the book.
-
I do like the fluff, but there is a lot of it. I think starting with one fluff opener like in Run & Gun. It starts off with some fluff from Danger Sensei then jumps straight into the crunch/fluff of the gear. Run Faster started off with advice on creating characters and then just keeps going on for a while. We don't even hit any really crunchy stuff until page 62, and the stuff I really want isn't until page 88 with the new metatypes. That Mr. Johnson chapter was great though.
I think mixing chapters between fluffy and crunchy would make it easier to read. Getting some 60 pages of fluff is pretty intense and makes me really consider just jumping to the sections I want to read and possibly skipping the fluff all together is a shame. I usually go back to read the fluff anyway, but still. I need a mix of content. Because just reading nothing but stat blocks is also not the greatest time either.
-
So I actually don't have the PDF yet so I live through you guys until next week. However, simply looking at the full preview option on Drivethrurpg I saw that the page right after the ToC told you clearly what each chapter was and what it contained. AJ I think if you guys simply move the blurb of this directly under chapter titles in ToC might make things easier. Simply my suggestion. I also agree that fluff and the rules should be in their own paragraphs as previously suggested.
Now the complaint about CFD I partially agree with. If this is such a Thing then it should have its own book and not the vague hints we got through the majority of stolen souls. However, I think that it is still relevant to Chrome Flesh and the fact that some players don't pick up every source book <gasp> I know blasphemy might not have a fragging clue about CFD. Also, AJ pointed out that there were two different development teams on lockdown and the other books. Could communication been better? Sure but I doubt either team had time to do so as they had different release scheduling plus that pesky time barrier problem being on two sides of the globe.
Now onto fluff in general? Seriously since first edition there has generally been more fluff to crunch ratio but I think what happened was the ratio never changed over time. For example main rules for first was about 300 I think we get almost 500 in fifth. So perhaps as suggested ease up on the fluff. IMHO descriptive fluff needs to stay (such as what it looks like and what it does when it is used) but if I have to read over a paragraph or two I know my friends will simply hop to the rules and move on.
Now as for errata I would really like errata to be implemented in at least PDF releases with notifications of the fixes being sent out to those owners. I like my books don't get me wrong but at a con my tablet and laptop suffice.
Finally on addiction rules i believe that both arcology podcast and critical glitch covered them way back when so if your eyes are tired give them a rest and listen to the pod casters. I bet if we ask Dr. Meat grinder real nicely he could ask a Time to cover it again to help address this. With catalyst rep on as well for official clarification.
Still digging through data trails so not bored by any means but thought I would weigh in.
Also how many of you people who are so big on rules crunch would buy a pure fluff book like another almanac of the sixth world?
-
Here are a few things I spotted for the upcoming Errata
p. 75 Translat-Ear is listed as capacity [1], but chart on p. 223 lists capacity as [rating]; Which is correct?
p. 78 Essence cost of Skillwires is Rating x 0.2, in the Core rule book they are Rating x 0.1; Which is correct? If the Rating x 0.2 is correct then the Augmentation Bundle Renraku Tradejack on p. 93 has an incorrect essence cost, it’s cost was based on Rating x 0.1.
p. 81 Ares’ Getting Network has a column for Mapsoft Rating, Mapsofts in the Core Rulebook do not have ratings, therefore either the column is incorrect or these ratings need defined.
p. 85 and p. 224 The Auto-injector Heading has a listing for Essence, Capacity and Availability; This should probably be blank
p. 85 and p. 225 The cost of Magnetic System is listed as 1000 + Contents; Um yeah, what can I say?
p. 90 There is an updated chart for Cybergun costs, this chart is not duplicated in the back of the book.
p. 91 One-shot dartgun has stats line for Accuracy, Damage, AP… But there is no stat line for Essence, Capacity, Availability or cost.
p. 222 Cortex Bomb Heading has stats info; As it includes a cost of 1000+Medkit, This should probably be blank
p. 222 and p. 225 Both have a listing for Skillwires with different stats lines
Will post more as I see them
Oh, and a personal pet peeve, The Targeting Lasers listed in Eyeware are built into the user's trigger hand... So why are they in Eyeware?
-
Dynamic Handprints and Retinal Adjusters (p. 152) both have a price based on Rating, but no value is given for their rating's range.
-
P. 159 Myostatin Inhibitor, Is the Strength increase an increase to natural Strength, or augmented Strength?
-
I think I can agree with everyone else...
To much fluff, not enough crunch.
Also, OF COURSE, we don't want PURE crunch books. The lore and world is what makes SR great and most of it is really well written, you guys do a good job there. But seriously, there is way WAY to much fluff and way to much in regards to CFD in almost EVERY book lately. It's like you're shoving the metaplot in our face and refusing to let us decide what to use and how. I've chosen to integrate at my table, but others I play with have tossed CFD out the door outright.
-
P. 159 Myostatin Inhibitor, Is the Strength increase an increase to natural Strength, or augmented Strength?
It's an augmentation so augmented STR. It also gives a small discount to raising your STR naturally.
-
Do the bonuses from Neural Amplifiers p. 149 add to decking and drain tests?
-
I enjoyed the book. But then, I read it as a book, starting with page 1 and reading through to the end.
As a result I knew from the half-page sidebar what each chapter was about and what to expect. The fiction was fantastic, and worth the pdf price on its own. The canon background is, for me, what has provided the foundation for the game to be one continuing reactive game world so reading Jackpoint comments about everything going on makes it feel... well, real.
The "crunch" parts were, on the whole, great additions and call-backs to earlier editions. I was particularly glad to see the return of the Digigrade Legs and Raptor Feet. Kid Stealth Lives!
Is the book perfect? No, of course not. The minor editing issues I can live with and ignore. There are some major points that have been addressed perfectly well by others, so there is no need for me to jump on to the bandwagon there, and I still have a real problem understanding the Addiction Rules (and I have a Law Degree!) so would really appreciate some major clarification there. It feels sometimes as if the author and the editor have had background conversations that explain the intention behind certain parts that never made it into print.
Perhaps the organisation of the books could echo that of earlier editions a little more? Have all the "fluff" at the front of the book, allowing for the campaign world to move forwards and give the canon characters a chance to chime in on what is going on in the world, and then have the "crunch" start and run uninterrupted for the remainder of the book (allowing for some fiction at the start of each section if appropriate).
If I could have a wish list It would be for the outstanding Errata to be addressed officially, and to have a more regular FAQ, even if were only once every 6 months. Oh, and for technomancers (except for Netcat) to be rounded up, implanted with all of the Monads, and have the whole kit and caboodle fired off into the sun. And a pair of Kid Stealth legs to replace the useless ones I've currently got. And a pony.
-
No rules for using Cybermancy or Cyberzombies? Will that be in an expanding PDF?
-
Speaking of Digitigrade Legs and Raptor Feet... find myself really confused into how they work as they seem to not really fit into Cyberlegs...
-
Speaking of Digitigrade Legs and Raptor Feet... find myself really confused into how they work as they seem to not really fit into Cyberlegs...
Digigrade Legs are basically a permanent change to the format of the legs - shorter thigh, vastly elongated foot, so that the legs now resemble bird's legs. Likewise, Raptor feet are a permanent change to the foot, making them appear just like a velociraptor foot, including the claw.
Both together you vastly change your appearance from the waist down to appear as though you are now half man, half velociraptor, and definitely qualify for Distinctive Appearance. If you have ever read the Wolf & Raven Shadowrun novels by Michael A Stackpole the character Kid Stealth plays an important part, and is the reason behind the alternative name for the augmentations.
-
I know what they are... but it seems that it's a case of you get both of them on a cyberleg there's nothing left...
-
?
It's Capacity, or apparently +0.25 Essence lost per leg, but only 4 Capacity.
A Cyberleg has 20, so there's plenty of space left.
Not everything is a slot-in item.
As for the structure: Goddamnit, get a grip.
Finding out what some of the geneware stuff does takes some serious amount of searching.
What happened to the clear structure of older books?
The fluff is fine, though I skipped straight over the CFD chapter, but at some point I wondered if you weren't overdoing it. A ToC could have fixed that, as I'm sure I'll eventually read most of it ( - the CFD chapter).
The only thing this has over Augmentation is that it's full colour. :-\
Here's hoping there's be an errata'd pdf for download, and not just an appendix including the Index.
-
Well, 8 if you count the feet as well.. but I see your point.. was probably reading the wrong line of something again.
-
Now, what about the crunch chapters? There's a lot of fluff in those as well ... is the balance closer to what you'd like to see? Is there too much fluff in, say, teh Cybernetic chapter? Not enough in the Bioware? About right?
A fluff-free book of nothing but lines of stats is never gonna happen, but getting the right *balance* is important.
For me (not having read this one yet), there is definitely a balance issue in some books, but between crunch and crunch as well as fluff and crunch.
For example, Run Faster has 23 races, covered by 12 pages of text for both fluff and crunch. Much of the crunch on how these races can work in a game (Pixie equipment, Sasquatch communication - can't communicate verbally, but act as ambassadors? Best combat stats in the game, but only balanced by fluff?) is missing. Races are massively important, people base entire character concepts on them, whereas the rest of the book represents small bits of their character. But it manages to fit 24 pages of equipment packs, which don't seem to add much at all to the game (caveat - I think it's an interesting idea, and a forum for community created ones is a good way to do it). Some sections were very fleshed out, others less so (Life modules looked like no one had tried to create different character archetypes (or Trolls) with it - and certainly not to see if it was balanced with other systems - which it can't be, you can't balance flat points systems with exponential points systems).
Errata/clarification is a major issue, though. The lack of it is meaning that we are forced to look to these books for it, which isn't really what they are for. We shouldn't be hoping for Technomancer fixes in an expansion book to make Complex Forms as useful to a Technomancer as Spells are to a Mage. We shouldn't be hoping for a book to alter rules so that learning First Aid and using a Medkit is better than not learning First Aid and using a Medkit. These books would be looked upon with greater happiness if there was errata for the issues with existing ones, as they'd be judged on their own merits, rather than failing to fix previous books.
My impression so far is that the writers love the fluff, and aren't too bothered by whether the rules work. That may be unfair, or that may be how it is (after all, people have motivations), but I'd certainly recommend a rules first person was involved in the books, and if a section doesn't have space for the rules to make it work, it can't be in the book at all. I love the fluff, but I also like to play the game, and having just arrived in 5th, can't rely on 4 editions of back knowledge to understand. I suspect, though, that the balance is imposed from above, rather than the people writing the books.
-
Some writers are also stronger in fiction than mechanics, while others are stronger in mechanics than fiction. In a perfect world, we'd have The Rules Guy, who'd handle all the mechanics, while everyone else fluffs it up, to insure that every rule lines up since they were all made by the same person, BUT, I don't think we have anybody who's flawlessly able to churn out guns, cars, spells, cybernetics, and so on.
With that not being possible, we try to kick ideas around and help one another out, but it isn't a perfect system. I know I'm utter pants when it comes to making spells, for instance. Playtesting catches some bugs, but there's orders of magnitude involved ... say you have five writers, fifty playtesters, and five thousand players who buy the book ... you can probably guess who'll catch more flaws. :) This is why we try and harvest things and make errata, or at least see if things are operating as intended.
For instance, in a video review, a couple of Aussies started combining LImnal Body with DIgigrade Legs with Skimmers, to see how fast they could go (The answer is 288 KPH, by the by) ... while not what was intended, I'm personally not inclined to ruin the fun of someone who wants to be a hovering panther-legged Centaur-man who wooshes down highways while sounding like a Pod Racer from the Phantom Menace. It's an exploit combination that I didn't plan for, but that comes with a host of drawbacks.
At any rate, keep the errors rolling, and we'll try and get to them ASAP. (I wouldn't expect an official FAQ/Errata until after GenCon, however. Pretty much the next month is all about that. As Xmas is to video games, GenCon is to RPGs, for both good and ill.)
-
Well, technically, a liminal body like that of a centaur also has a legtype even more efficient than digigrade cyberlegs, so there is an argument to be made it shouldn't get any further bonus.
The same way, I have to ask why those legs improve the speed of skimmers. That's probably neither here nor there, though, and hard for you to answer.
More important stuff:
What the hell happened to weapon arms? You can't just ditch them! :'(
-
They didn't. You can replace my hand with s chainsaw if you like.
-
That's not a weapon arm, that's a weapon on an arm. There's no option to screw a fully articulated weapon arm to the back of your torso to look over your shoulder anymore.
Or gyrostabilized weapon cages on your forearms for more dakka.
-
Weapon arms are most certainly there! I combined the rules for chainsaws, buzzsaws, and vices into a single Extreme thing, however. I figure that while they look different, they're all essetially the same thing: Giant, oversized death-things in place of a hand.
(But you can make 'em modular, if you want to avoid Razor Fist problems!)
(( Also, more Rigger-like gear, like the remote-controlled modular cyberhand, I ifgured would be better slotted into the Rigger book. It's not gone, it's just chillin' with it's cousins. ))
(Edit)
ah HAH! Yeah, okay, granted, I didn't go with extra limbs, other than tails (Mind you, you *can* attach a cybergun to your tail, so there's that! And you can also take a Tank! upgrade and fill the massive pile of Capacity with gunsgunsguns) but you're right in that this is something that could be added.
If we do the "Cyberzombis and more" expansion, I'll see about adding Skull 2.0 and Toros 2.0, each with more capacity, and some wilder stuff like extra arms, gun waldos, and so forth.
-
Please do!
Btw, does creating a new Cybergun actually modify the gun, in the classes sense? As in, it doesn't work on guns that normally can't accept more modifications?
And what are "Exotic Pistols" for this purpose?
I definitely appreciate the Rigger Stuff. Now we only need useful Drones. :P
-
More capacity in synthetic skulls would be nice if only for taking improved synth skin at a level higher than 1
-
Wakshaani, in my opinion it's not a big problem that there are errors in the books. It is unfortunate for buyers of the hard copies but understandable. It's the lack of a good errata process. I do care about updated PDFs and corrected print runs, but I know that these take a long time and are very work intensive. I don't care one iota about those fancy designed errata documents that have the same look as the books.
My preference would be a way to quickly address rule inconsistencies, gaps and errors. I've noticed that there seems to be people like you around here in the forums when new publications are released that answer questions and give info about, for example, how a printing mistake was really meant. Awesome! Why not compile that stuff into some preliminary errata list posted here in the forums? We always hear about FAQs and errata being "in the pipeline". That just doesn't cut it. Post the damn lists and add a disclaimer that these are not final and subject to change.
-
We can't pre-publish stuff in the pipeline because of NDAs. That's why I strive to include "at my table..." disclaimers in most of my rules-related posts. It could also simply lead to more confusion. My take on something could be--and often is--totally different than another freelancer's take. Having lingering rules questions answered by something as arbitrary as who posts first is a terrible approach if the goal is clarity.
-
I understand that you can't do this currently. But NDAs can be changed or Catalyst could give someone the authority to post something. It's not a god-given situation.
-
More capacity in synthetic skulls would be nice if only for taking improved synth skin at a level higher than 1
I'd rather see the capacity requirement of improved synthskin ditched, while False Face & Junkyard Jaw have theirs halved / quartered, tbh.
-
With that not being possible, we try to kick ideas around and help one another out, but it isn't a perfect system. I know I'm utter pants when it comes to making spells, for instance. Playtesting catches some bugs, but there's orders of magnitude involved ... say you have five writers, fifty playtesters, and five thousand players who buy the book ... you can probably guess who'll catch more flaws. :) This is why we try and harvest things and make errata, or at least see if things are operating as intended.
Why not harness the passion and talents of your fans and open up the crunch for external play testing? It seems to have been working pretty well for the other guys. The community seems to be pretty willing to help out, given the reams of fan generated errata and rules explanations you can find here.
-
With that not being possible, we try to kick ideas around and help one another out, but it isn't a perfect system. I know I'm utter pants when it comes to making spells, for instance. Playtesting catches some bugs, but there's orders of magnitude involved ... say you have five writers, fifty playtesters, and five thousand players who buy the book ... you can probably guess who'll catch more flaws. :) This is why we try and harvest things and make errata, or at least see if things are operating as intended.
Why not harness the passion and talents of your fans and open up the crunch for external play testing? It seems to have been working pretty well for the other guys. The community seems to be pretty willing to help out, given the reams of fan generated errata and rules explanations you can find here.
This.
If video game dev's from stonehearth, to kingdom come, to galciv and star cit can sti down, on their forums, and talk to us about everything, open things up to playtesting and even show live development of a product on a live stream? This "NDA" and "We don't want to share anything until it's done" nonsense has to stop. Time for transparency. We love you guys, and we love shadowrun. Let US playtest and help you for crying out loud. It worked for Pathfinder and the guys at Paizo, and it's working Onyxpath who are redoing WoD, and I must say..they're doing a lot better with their products as of late. Now I'm harsh, and so are others, but if we didn't love this world, this game, and really truly care about it? We'd not buy anything and SR would die. Now, to the writers, well done. You give of yourselves to keep our fave game and world alive, and while you don't deserve abuse..we can still give feedback and criticism. Long as, of course, it's non-abusive and actual feedback.
-
The NDA may not be under their control. This may come down from TOPPS.
-
Given how many errors there are in each release and how quickly the community finds them all (a few days after release usually) Imho they should open the entire editing process to the community.
I so wish this was not required and they got their editing game together but man it's been 2 years now and they still can't get their act together.
Heads would roll most companies by now.
-
p164, the section on Immunization just ends abruptly, in the middle of a sentence.
For every dose administered past the first,
As for opinions, I kinda like the CFD stuff. It feels like something that totally makes sense in the sixth world, and I'm a bit surprised it didnt come up sooner. Brain hacking nanotech possessed by rogue AI's seems cyberpunk as hell.
The fluff is all pretty good, maybe a little on the heavy side, but nothing that needs major work. I'd agree that the fluff and crunch should be more clearly separated, so you don't have to don't have to go wading through backstory just to find a quick rule in the middle of a game.
The editing in the books could definitely use some work (I mean, its clear from some of these mistakes that nobody actually proofread the whole thing cover to cover, which is something any editor should do before sending something off to print. I'd be fine waiting an extra day or two for my PDF if it didn't have so many glaring errors.)
The smaller errors and inconsistencies are frankly more annoying, as they are more likely to result in rules ambiguity when its not clear which section of the text is correct, or if any of them are. There definitely needs to be more regular FAQ/Errata type things.
The fact that the book came out 3 days ago and we've already found a small mountain of errors means they're not hard to find, and in most cases not hard to fix. I imagine most of us would be more than happy to proofread things before they get sent out, no charge.
The lack of a index/decent TOC is annoying, though the PDF is searchable, so its not ruined. They are definitely necessary for the print run though. Actually playing a game using hardcopy rules without an index is a nightmare.
-
To all...I passed the feedback along regarding the ToC (for both Chrome Flesh and Data Trails) to Jason this morning...he is aware. I believe that time constraints were the main reason for not including more detailed versions... :( They are considering releasing PDF indices, but no time frame at the moment.
Why doesn't he just fix the PDFs, upload the new ones to DriveThru, and let everyone who bought them get the update? That's kind of the benefit of buying PDFs.
-
Why do these books have so little of what I expect and a whole bunch of stuff that isn't useful in the average group? Do they not have anybody working for them that designs crunch?
-
This will never happen.
It's been 2 years since Core and at least a year since S.G. and no updated /fixed PDFs there.
If they haven't fixed S.G. and it's many horrific errors, omissions, inaccuracies, formatting errors, editing errors et al there's no reason to expect them to fix anything else.
Period.
To all...I passed the feedback along regarding the ToC (for both Chrome Flesh and Data Trails) to Jason this morning...he is aware. I believe that time constraints were the main reason for not including more detailed versions... :( They are considering releasing PDF indices, but no time frame at the moment.
Why doesn't he just fix the PDFs, upload the new ones to DriveThru, and let everyone who bought them get the update? That's kind of the benefit of buying PDFs.
-
Just asking this out here, if they added an Index, I suppose I could just fuse the two parts with an editing software and create my own links?
-
Just asking this out here, if they added an Index, I suppose I could just fuse the two parts with an editing software and create my own links?
If the PDF wasn't password locked, sure.
-
Just asking this out here, if they added an Index, I suppose I could just fuse the two parts with an editing software and create my own links?
Yes, I believe you could. I've also toyed with updating some of the PDFs, but have never been able to find the time...one day though ;)
Regarding updated PDFs...typically that is only done when the book gets reprinted (IIRC). Not ideal by any stretch, but the process as it currently stands. I'll pass the comments on again...hopefully, once Con season winds down the team will find the time.
-
Why do these books have so little of what I expect and a whole bunch of stuff that isn't useful in the average group? Do they not have anybody working for them that designs crunch?
There are no dedicated Crunch guys, no. The writers *often* bounce stuff around between them, but not always. In a perfect world, we'd have one dedicated Mechanic who could make everythinga ligned and perfect, and we'd all have an office building that we worked in together so we could just poke a head in one another's rooms when needing to check on stuff, BUT, we don't have video game developer money to have, say, a 'dedicated coder' who pulls in six figures a year.
There *is* a playtest team, however, and a proofreading team, and I'm sure AJ could drop some links down for those of you who *would* like to get in there early and help out with the process. There are legal things to sign, and I don't know the pay rate (I *think* you work for product, but don't quite me on that), but, the opportunity's there.
Who knows? You could go from there to getting a writing gig yourself! Stranger things have happened. Heck, they let *me* in, so. :D
-
I'd definitely be interested in that kinda stuff, but then who wouldn't.
And yeah, money's a bitch. I can understand that.
Though I know from experience most videogame developers aren't axactly rich, either. ;)
-
Not sure whether I'd have time to volunteer, and my knowledge of Shadowrun, having started in 5th, is probably too shallow.
When I was a teenager, many years ago, rebalancing systems for Games Workshop during playtesting was good fun.
-
Guys, I'll follow up with Jason to confirm the the arrangement around playtesting and post in a new thread.
-
Generally on some rules you can use theorycrafting rather than playtesting. A lot of the GW stuff I did as a teenager was more probability analysis.
Certainly when confronting things like HMHVV II/III disease, it's worth considering whether you want a chance to survive without infection, and how large, and then see if the rules give you what you want (if it's that a maximized Body + Will Troll with Pathogenic Defense Rating 6 has a 0.008% survival chance against strain II without using edge, and a less than 1% chance against strain III, then it's spot on).
-
Got a copy yay!
So now I can ask my legitimate question as I was only looking for one little piece of cyber that I thought, that perhaps you guys forgot it in Core. Where the heck is my Skinlink? I mean there is the Immersion for a technomancer to get skinlink why can't my cybered Decker have a skinlink too? I mean skinlink has been around since first edition for crying out loud. The rules for how it works is there all it would have required is a stat on capacity, essence, and cost that is it nothing more. Why was this one piece of gear that has been a mainstay for 25 years suddenly dropped?
-
Where the heck is my Skinlink?
Skinlink has never been Cyberware . It costs No Essence
it's just a kind of cable that uses your Skin instead of a Coppercable, that's all
You can either wait for CGL to write it down (ImO you have a better chance of watching the Hell freeze over )
Or you can reeinstate it (with the SR4A Crunch )
You don't need CGL to write down the Crunch for a Leatherman or Swissknife and You don't need CGL for Skinlink either !
Why was this one piece of gear that has been a mainstay for 25 years suddenly dropped?
Sorry , but Skinlink is a 4A Invention so it is around since 2070
but Basically your Question is valid ! :)
And I would like to follow up that Question (not that I expect CGL to answer this officially ;) :) )
He who dances with a second Skin
Medicineman
-
There was an induction datajack back in 2nd. It however needed an adaptor for the decker to hold
-
I've gotten a bit more time to read more of this. And the mental health section was a great read. And I'm happy to see the comeback of brain hacking. It makes way more sense for brainwashing to be in the advance medical book then it does to have it in the Matrix book. Also, the bit about the death of Leonora Bartoli is pretty much the most cyberpunk thing ever.
-
I've gotten a bit more time to read more of this. And the mental health section was a great read. And I'm happy to see the comeback of brain hacking. It makes way more sense for brainwashing to be in the advance medical book then it does to have it in the Matrix book. Also, the bit about the death of Leonora Bartoli is pretty much the most cyberpunk thing ever.
Thank you! I'm quite proud of that one, and sicne Plan 9 orbits around it, you can never be sure how accurate it is.
You're teh first one to say anything about it, tho, so you get a gold star. :D
-
Bah! The wonder-widget NERPS has been unveiled. That's almost as frustrating as the terrible ToC and missing index...
-
I've gotten a bit more time to read more of this. And the mental health section was a great read. And I'm happy to see the comeback of brain hacking. It makes way more sense for brainwashing to be in the advance medical book then it does to have it in the Matrix book. Also, the bit about the death of Leonora Bartoli is pretty much the most cyberpunk thing ever.
Thank you! I'm quite proud of that one, and sicne Plan 9 orbits around it, you can never be sure how accurate it is.
You're teh first one to say anything about it, tho, so you get a gold star. :D
Its totally apart of my head canon now. I guess she must have died sometime before the first Matrix Crash or maybe around the same time in 2029, which might explain why no one heard about it. And if it was around the crash it'd have given her 10 years to live with her murderous cyberarm. That is terrifying, hilarious, and tragic all at the same time, and only from one little blurb. That's the kind of stuff I like in my Shadowrun.
-
So I recently purchased Chrome flesh. As others have mentioned the lack of a real table of contents is really pretty sad. I'm also disappointed in the rules train wreck that is the custom drug section. I eagerly await a rules clarification or a faq on that section in order to make it playable. know what to roll in order to beat the addiction threshold is kinda fundamental when using a drug in sr5. I'm also concerned that rules example of wrecker making a custom drug doesn't seem to jive with the rules tables unless I'm misunderstanding something. The addiction threshold and addiction rating seem much higher then the tables would seem to suggest. This puts into doubt the entire validity of the charts used to make the custom drugs.
Now a lot of people are complaining about the CFD virus getting featured in so many books. I want to say I have enjoyed it. Its like the authors are letting the readers experience a major world event in the world of shadowrun like the spread of VITAS, the first few months/years of the awakening happening or one of the matrix crashes . And we as players get to experience this world shaking event. I remember another user making a statement about how they wish it was treated like the tempo story. One book and then its over. I disagree completely. The fact that its appeared in so many of the books I feel emphasizes the importance and wide spread nature of this event. The tempo story arc lasted for what a few months? CFD is here to stay and even if a cure is found those already affected by it probably wont be recoverable with the original personalities having gone mad watching someone else control them for so long. The world of shadowrun will never be the same and I am excited to be part of this.
-
One good point raised by a reader of my website is that with all the fluff in Chrome Flesh, he is forbidden by his GM to buy the book because it would spoil the story of their game.
It's true that usually gear/crunch books are meant for players, giving them more options to customize their characters. If they can't read it because it contains too much GM-only content, then there's a problem.
Personally I print extracts from the PDF with the gear list so that all players have access to it, but I understand not everybody has easy access to a printer.
-
Personally, the "problem" I and a few others I know have with CFD is a combination of things.
To play shadowrun, you need a certain suspension of disbelief, just like with battletech.
The matrix, creatures out of tolkien books, etc.
Then came the nanites, and every techsavy person should be screaming "it doesn't work that way!". But you can make do, for it's a small part and fluff and ingame effect aren't specifically connected.
But apparently, someone at Catalyst saw it the same way, and his brilliant Idea was "let's gate this unbelievable thing behind something even less likely! That'll show 'em!". Yeah, I can't see how that could possibly backfire.
So now we have Nanites housing a sentient AI, individually capable to matrix combat, able to reproduce, reprogram other nanites of any kind, and directly manipulate a human being on a cellular level far better than science has managed to in a few millenia, all without any previous experience with the matter.
It's a bit jarring, like in every book there's a disclaimer "Hey, don't you think roleplaying is a really dumb idea? Why don't you go out and enjoy the weather? I mean, this is so silly!". It really continues the problem that started with the missions for "new players", in just slightly overdoing it.
As for the actual mechanics we now finally have, it can be used for opponents, or plot hooks, so it has a place in the world, so I can't complain about that, still, when I see a CFD section in a book I ignore it. It's best not to think about it too much.
Edit: One more thing about the actual PDF:
In older pdfs (till RF), the books had an extra "Cover page", so that's my base setting. But DT and CF don't, so I need to change my settings every time I'm watching those. Maybe that could be fixed with an actual TOC taking up two pages.
-
Question for the freelancers: WTF does an active hardwire (@$4k per rating) cost LESS than an activesoft (@$5k per rating) that requires no surgery at all?
Please tell me how this makes any sense at all.
I'm listening....
-
It costs less cash because it costs Essence and can't just be swapped out for something else when needed.
-
Ur. What? Your forgetting the additional cost of the skillwires and skilljacks, which cost more than the active had wires in $ and essence.
Given the above one would expect the active soft to cost less than the active hardwires.
If the active soft did not require the base hardware to run on I would agree with you.
-
Covered in teh dedicated topic over here:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21335.15
-
Alright, dearest people responsible, or to whomever it may concern -
this will be hard, mean, come across as patronizing and wise-assing, and most definitely polemic, but polemics are all that I have left about this:
I want you to look at this thing you call a "Table of Contents".
Now I want you to look at it again.
And again.
If by now you haven't broken down in tears, admitting your shame and guilt, wheeping in the dust and asking a higher being forgiveness for being horrible human beings, then we have nothing more to discuss. You have broken my heart when you published Data Trails as it was, CGL, and now you have done it again.
I'm aware you probably have heard this multiple times by now, relayed from this thread alone, and I know it sucks to always hear a community complaining, but it cannot be said often enough: This is not smart, counterproductive, and, most importantly, I don't like it.
This is a core rulebook (even if we have a little bit of a fluff-incursion here these days - but fear not, dear freelance-fluff-writers, we still love you and still want your fluff - the reaction in the prior posts here alone said at much), and if I have to hear one of my players go one more time "I can't find anything in this! Where is that again?" and "With LaTeX this would not have happened!!" I swear to Dog, will have to go and submerge a bag of cyber-puppies in the Foundation.
Now, Mr. Hardy, or whoever is in charge of that, here is what I would like you to do:
Let us assume there is this freelancer or fiction writer. Let's name him Bob. Bob has just handed you his three to five pages of short story that are supposed to make it into this or the next book, because lord knows we need at least ONE of those per supplement for some reason, and you go to him, and say:
»Listen, Bobster - may I call you Bobster? - I can see you can type. You can write. You can probably also read, understand words, lines, and maybe even headlines and paragraphs, and know how to use a word processor.
Now, Bobster, I know you are a freelancer, maybe even a hobbiyst with an unrelated full-time job, but what I want you to do next time, the week before we are shipping this PDF to the printers/DriveThruRPG, you are going to sit down for one to two hours a day, each day for that week, and you go through one chapter per day, in your preferred word processor application of choice or whatever we are using for assembling these documents.
Now, you mark all those headlines, key them according to the layout, which admittedly may or may not be final because somebody will be handing in their text about 3 hours before this goes to the printer, but still, you go through what we have, and key them in layers, from 1 to X. You do that for all the dozen or so chapters of this book, and once you are done with this menial, but vital task, you go to Insert > Register > Build TOC, and watch that word processor put out a nice long structured list of entries and automatically generated page numbers.
You then give it to me, I give you the money I would have paid you or another guy for that short story we had to tragically sacrifice in exchange for this due to time and money constraints, and I give it to our editing and layout guy to put it into the front of our book, and make sure the page-numbers still check out.
Yes, Bobster, I am aware that some people, like that obnoxiously patronizing Remy and others on the internet, will probably still whine and moan because some page number was wrong for some reason, or we still don't have an index, but look at it this way: our product will still be ten times as usuable due to this effort in prioritizing our ressources in a way that is conductive to this particular product!
And as designers and game writers that want to deliver a complete and accessible product, we have our priorities straight!«
* * *
The irony is that I have probably typed this in the time it would have taken someone to toc-key a chapter or two, and yet I have still spend just a FRACTION of the time now I will be spending in the future browsing and text-searching through this book because it has neither an index, nor a classic TOC, nor a proper PDF-Bookmark-TOC.
All long-winded snarkiness aside, please CGL. Please. One less short story, or one or two pieces less of that amazing art you get for your books, or one week or two more delay till release, but gives us at least ONE of the things named above. :/
PS: You know I can't leave you, CGL. I cherished our time together we had with SR5 so far too much, and I want to keep cherishing it, but things really need to change in this relationship.
-
I typed up a Table of Contents maybe a week ago and posted it among all my other lists.
Again it isn't hyperlinked nor am I a member of the writing team or Catalyst.
Hope it helps a little.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xq9mvm7paqjfc7a/sr5%20tool%20chrome%20flesh%20index.pdf?dl=0
-
That's actually pretty helpful. Thanks!
-
I typed up a Table of Contents maybe a week ago and posted it among all my other lists.
Again it isn't hyperlinked nor am I a member of the writing team or Catalyst.
Hope it helps a little.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xq9mvm7paqjfc7a/sr5%20tool%20chrome%20flesh%20index.pdf?dl=0
yet you're not the one who should have had to do that.
And Remy summed it up quite well.
*Sigh* I had great, GREAT hopes following Run Faster's release. While not perfect (i can deal with not perfect), i was very pleasantly surprised when one of my players showed me his copy, and i bought it for myself the next day because it was greatly functionnal.
Guess that's another book i won't be adding to my collection anytime soon from the reviews i'm hearing. Even my most diehard players aren't interested in buying it. I'd really like to support Shadowrun, but while the fluff is great, and wonderful to read...at the end of the day i want a system i can use. Please don't let it be a regression-towards-the-mean situation, editors. By this point i would've preferred 2 more months of waiting before release.
-
So back to products and what not.
One of my small problems after reading through the book with was the fact that rather common items, which make sense in the game but I think the items like joint replacement, spinal repair, and even limb replacement should of had it's own little section.
Anyway I had a question about skates and skimmers as to what the drawbacks are with them? Also what about other skills you could use while moving with them like for example gymnastics or sneaking? I was just curious if there were any negatives for this.
-
Skates give 50% Walk/Run speed boost and lowers your physical limit by 1.
Skimmers give 100% Walk/Run speed boost and lowers your physical limit by 2.
Pretty much all the penalties to actions like sneaking or gymnastics would fall under that limit penalty. So sure, for a character with a brute of a physical limit, it's not really going to effect them much, then again getting a 50% or 100% speed boost isn't really that much of a game changer for most situations anyway.
-
Not sure if it made it into the final text, but Skimmers are also LOUD, making stealth impossible while using them.
-
SKIMMERS
A more complex option for cyberfeet is the use of
ground-effect platforms, based on skimmer drone
technology, to provide a cushion of air beneath the
user and allow them to hover a few centimeters above
the ground. It takes some practice to get the hang of
it, but once mastered, the skimmers allow the user to
move at double their normal walking or running speed
when engaged. The fragile balance required to maneuver
them reduces the user’s Physical limit by 2. Note
that these are completely useless unless taken in pairs,
and they’re unusable if the user attempts to carry any
significant extra weight.
Wireless Bonus: Activating or deactivating the
skimmers is a Free Action, rather than a Simple Action
as normal.
Whelp, looks like that's something else to add to the errata.
-
Not neccessarily. It might have been pulled for space, or it might have been pulled by playtesting. *I* had it as a balancing factor, but, it might not have been needed on top of teh balance penalties. I'll have to ask.
-
Heh. I like the idea of skimmers on a 750lbs troll... That better be some damned powerful thrusters.
-
Just checking was there a typo in Move by wire in rating 3 it indicates that it is still just a +1d6 to initiative die or was that supposed to be a 2d6? Mind you I have no issue with that because of the fact of the way they system already works it seems like a good balance, especially for those characters who already sunk a ton of nuyen into wired reflexes 3.
-
Where is Dermal Sheathing with its Mods and the other Bone Lacing options?
-
Where is Dermal Sheathing with its Mods and the other Bone Lacing options?
Dermal Sheathing's one of the *very* few things I didn't move from 4th to 5th.
I thought about the Bone Lacing options, but I couldn't figure out much in the way to make them interesting and there didn't seem to be a real *demand* for them. I wouldn't mind fixing that in the future, if we get SOTA books or the like.
-
Do soft nanohives take 2 Capacity (like hard nanohives)?
-
Definitely bring back Kevlar and ceramic bone lacing, please :)
Maybe add a new one; carbon nanotubes!
-
I thought about the Bone Lacing options, but I couldn't figure out much in the way to make them interesting and there didn't seem to be a real *demand* for them. I wouldn't mind fixing that in the future, if we get SOTA books or the like.
While it's not a major thing, a full body equivalent for flex hands has been something I've pondered since I first saw them in 4e.
-
Ceramic Bone Lacings at least allowed you to try to get past MAD scanners.
-
Ceramic Bone Lacings at least allowed you to try to get past MAD scanners.
On the one hand, true!
On the other hand, the Bioware bone augmentation does the same, and is about where Kevlar and Ceramic would have been in terms of ability. Higher cost, but *way* better essence.
And never sets off MAD, so...
-
Bone density augmentation has the added bonus of not setting off millimeter wave (cyberware) scanners. Kevlar and ceramic bones are still going to set those off.
-
Just checking was there a typo in Move by wire in rating 3 it indicates that it is still just a +1d6 to initiative die or was that supposed to be a 2d6? Mind you I have no issue with that because of the fact of the way they system already works it seems like a good balance, especially for those characters who already sunk a ton of nuyen into wired reflexes 3.
I'm pretty sure its just the +1d6. I don't think its that out of whack looking at the numbers. So let's say you have a reaction of 6 and an intuition of 4, so base initiative would be 10+1d6. Comparing Wired Reflexes: 3 + Reaction Enhancers: 3 to Move by Wire: 3. With the former, that makes initiative 16 + 4D6. Move by Wire:3, calculating it all up, gives you +3 reaction, +9 initiative for a total of 22 + 2d6.
So, technically, the average roll on wired reflexes+reaction enhancers is 30, while move by wire: 3 is 29. So wired averages slightly higher, but move by wire has a tighter range. Like the lowest you could ever get with MBW is a 24, while you might get only a 20 with wired. Of course, in this situation MBW maxes at 34, whereas if you're lucky, you could get as high as 40 with wired. So while you can go faster with Wired+RE, you can also be unfortunate and roll slower than you ever could with MBW.
MBW:3 is cheaper about 40K cheaper than and costs less essence, while also being able to be used as level 6 skillwires. So if you don't care about eventually having horrible nerve/brain damage (or the social limit penalties), its not like its a big gip compared to sinking that money into wired:3 + RE:3. But yeah, with only a +1d6 whether its level 2 or 3 does make it seem nerfed from previous editions, I think its fair given the price and essence cost. I think if 3 gave you +2d6, they'd need to jack up the price a bit.
-
I'm not sure how to interpret the Built -In Medkit. Is it just a medkit in a cyberlimb? Is there a rating limit given the size of the rating 6 medkit is essentially my old Corpsman pack that weighed around 20-30lbs? Is it just some kind of an auto doc/med dose system? Can you use it on other characters or just yourself?
It sounds like it is just a Medkit dispenser system built into the arm with like a rotating cylinder with sterilized med tools in specially formed pockets for each tool.
I'm not really sure though.
-
It's a 4th edition one brought forward, but, essentially, it's modding your arm so that you can add-in a Medkit of Rating X, allowing it to be carried with you, but also to function easily ... parts rotate, there's a nice viewscreen that you can eyeball, it can interact with other upgrades that you instal (For example, a 'stinger' upgrade and a chemical resivoir or three, letting you do medical examinations and inject things carefully, with teh medkit helping the dosage levels), and so on.
It's *kinda* like having one in a smuggling compartment, but much cooler, just like you can use a normal toolkit, or you canhave a cool cyber toolarm that has rotating bits as different wrenches are needed. (The rating of the medkit depends on what you buy, of course. I suggest a Rating 5 or 6, and it's verymuch intended to be used on other people, but it could be used on yourself with difficulty (About as easy as using a medkit on yourself). Just like having a doctor's bag today, it's one of those things that you can quickly lift, say, "Let me through, I'm a doctor!" and security will let you past in some situations.
-
It's definitely cooler. It's a shame it couldn't have had some mechanical advantage (lower time required on tests perhaps) to make up for the capacity reduction and cost increase over just carrying a medkit/toolkit and having something else in the arm.
-
Yeah, it's pretty much the same in 5th as 4th, just style points. The only mechanical advantage is networking it with your other cybergear, but that's kinda outlying. STill, *somebody* will want one, and that person gets a hug from me if they want it. :)
-
Moved over from the Errata thread...
Why wasn't an Augmentation Upgrade Path provided in Chromed Flesh like Magic Types got for their Foci in Street Grimore?
I've asked this before but it's a huge penalty to a Cybered characters Power Curve to rip out 10s of thousands of Nuyen in 'ware to get back 1000s while spending even more 10s of thousands of Nuyen to get new 'ware. It's pretty accepted on the forum that whatever 'ware you start with is pretty much the same 'ware you are going to be using for eternity. Going by the recommended pay scale in SR5. If ¥2000 counts as 1 Karma than every time you replace 'ware, then you are just hemorrhaging Karma to get an Upgrade. It's actually making your Character weaker not stronger by doing so. I understand that it's the Fighters role to get SHAFTED in every game system where they start out strong & quickly get surpassed on the Power Curve by Magic Types.... but giving them an even better Upgrade Path while continuing to punish heavy Augmentation Users is a bit rude really.
-
Also... my personal pet peeve from Day 1 has been the Trainwreck the Custom Drug section ended in. Is that subject ever going to be addressed? I've noticed quite a few others have mentioned it as well & while me and Herr Brackhaus deciphered the missing Text the same way... it still doesn't address the fundamental problem with Wrecker from the example willing taking an Addiction Rating 10/Addiction Threshold 8 drug. Sucking off a shotgun is a much simpler & less painful method if committing suicide is the goal. It leads me to question whoever wrote that sections understanding of the Rule Set, when they provide that as the example, which leads me to question the entire basis for the whole design. Can we please get some clarification about this? A simple is Custom Drug Addiction Physiological, Psychological, or Both would be a great place to start. The missing Text & the entire flawed design of Enhancers can be straightened out once we get that fundamental Rule needed for using it even in its flawed form.
-
Yeah, it's pretty much the same in 5th as 4th, just style points. The only mechanical advantage is networking it with your other cybergear, but that's kinda outlying. STill, *somebody* will want one, and that person gets a hug from me if they want it. :)
Oh, I want it, I'm trying to work out whether I swap out my current cyberarm on my decker with a modular one with removable forearms containing medkit, hardware kit, and running kit. At the moment, though, costs are coming in astronomical, with no mechanical gains. I'd be having to carry a medkit arm rather than having a medkit 3 in a pocket and medkit 6 bag with me or in the van.
-
Yeah, it's pretty much the same in 5th as 4th, just style points. The only mechanical advantage is networking it with your other cybergear, but that's kinda outlying. STill, *somebody* will want one, and that person gets a hug from me if they want it. :)
Oh, I want it, I'm trying to work out whether I swap out my current cyberarm on my decker with a modular one with removable forearms containing medkit, hardware kit, and running kit. At the moment, though, costs are coming in astronomical, with no mechanical gains. I'd be having to carry a medkit arm rather than having a medkit 3 in a pocket and medkit 6 bag with me or in the van.
You could just carry a Medkit 4 (6) from bullets & Bandages in a hip pouch. No reason to leave it at the van... or to carry it in your arm. I managed to hang on to a Gyromount in my RA & even wastefully extravagant Large LED Tattoo in the LA (for Role Play reasons... the very worst reasons in my munchkin mind :P ) but 10 Capacity for a Medkit was funny useless when I read it. By kind cool for the DocWagon HTR guy... but everyone else would just be wasting the Arm.
-
You could just carry a Medkit 4 (6) from bullets & Bandages in a hip pouch. No reason to leave it at the van... or to carry it in your arm.
I think you perhaps mean Medkit 3 (5), as Medkit 4 is Small Backpack or duffel bag. Medkit 3 fits in a large pouch, 2 in a small pouch.
In addition I'd need to take a point of Cybertech skill, as it's required for an extended test to upgrade the medkit, with my 8 logic, hitting threshold 5 test should be ok.
And of course, get GM permission as it's an optional rule.
Definitely worthy of consideration though.
-
Moved over from the Errata thread...
Why wasn't an Augmentation Upgrade Path provided in Chromed Flesh like Magic Types got for their Foci in Street Grimore?.
Nobody asked me to! I wouldn't at all mind adding it. The first time I even heard someone bring it up was when the guys at Critical Glitch were complaining. Knowing there's a demand, I'm more than happy to toss it out there.
-
Moved over from the Errata thread...
Why wasn't an Augmentation Upgrade Path provided in Chromed Flesh like Magic Types got for their Foci in Street Grimore?.
Nobody asked me to! I wouldn't at all mind adding it. The first time I even heard someone bring it up was when the guys at Critical Glitch were complaining. Knowing there's a demand, I'm more than happy to toss it out there.
Thanks... this is a needed inclusion in almost every game system not just Shadowrun. But it can be fixed with Houseruling that you don't have to have 'ware pulled out, you just pay for the upgrade (Rating or Grade.) Be really nice if it was included in the official rules though.
You could just carry a Medkit 4 (6) from bullets & Bandages in a hip pouch. No reason to leave it at the van... or to carry it in your arm.
I think you perhaps mean Medkit 3 (5), as Medkit 4 is Small Backpack or duffel bag. Medkit 3 fits in a large pouch,
And that's why you are never supposed to change your first answer on the test. I had written 3(5) but then wasn't a 100% & was to lazy to go check... meh. A 3(5) is still better than a 3... a NPC can upgrade it for you. Just like Armorers, Talismongers, or Surgeons... some things are just better to offload to NPC contacts & contractors.
-
Moved over from the Errata thread...
Why wasn't an Augmentation Upgrade Path provided in Chromed Flesh like Magic Types got for their Foci in Street Grimore?.
Nobody asked me to! I wouldn't at all mind adding it. The first time I even heard someone bring it up was when the guys at Critical Glitch were complaining. Knowing there's a demand, I'm more than happy to toss it out there.
While we're at it, I want rules to go crazy and pick up negative qualities at low essense. And rules to go crazy with high magic. That'd be sweet. More insanity for everyone!
-
Moved over from the Errata thread...
Why wasn't an Augmentation Upgrade Path provided in Chromed Flesh like Magic Types got for their Foci in Street Grimore?.
Nobody asked me to! I wouldn't at all mind adding it. The first time I even heard someone bring it up was when the guys at Critical Glitch were complaining. Knowing there's a demand, I'm more than happy to toss it out there.
While we're at it, I want rules to go crazy and pick up negative qualities at low essense. And rules to go crazy with high magic. That'd be sweet. More insanity for everyone!
I read this post a couple times... do you really think that not forcing characters to hemorrhage their Resources A investment from Chargen all over the operating table is "high powered" or "insane"? You do realize that it would be forcing a Mage to lose a point of Magic if they raise Spellcasting or Summoning. Upgrading 'ware makes a character weaker not stronger since they are losing so much starting investment every time they do it. No other Archetypes have to lose starting chargen investment to advance during play.
-
I much prefer having disadvantages available and mentioning that they're common among low-Essence (or high-Magic) people, instead of making them rules so that people have to get yet more punished for buying up the goodies the game gives you to buy up.
It's the game where man meets magic and machine; you shouldn't be penalized for wanting to do so.
-
Moved over from the Errata thread...
Why wasn't an Augmentation Upgrade Path provided in Chromed Flesh like Magic Types got for their Foci in Street Grimore?.
Nobody asked me to! I wouldn't at all mind adding it. The first time I even heard someone bring it up was when the guys at Critical Glitch were complaining. Knowing there's a demand, I'm more than happy to toss it out there.
While we're at it, I want rules to go crazy and pick up negative qualities at low essense. And rules to go crazy with high magic. That'd be sweet. More insanity for everyone!
I read this post a couple times... do you really think that not forcing characters to hemorrhage their Resources A investment from Chargen all over the operating table is "high powered" or "insane"? You do realize that it would be forcing a Mage to lose a point of Magic if they raise Spellcasting or Summoning. Upgrading 'ware makes a character weaker not stronger since they are losing so much starting investment every time they do it. No other Archetypes have to lose starting chargen investment to advance during play.
Wakshaani
If you could look into that, that'd be really appreciated. Pretty much every table I've played at has house ruled that you pay the difference in cost and essence when upgrading ware ratings or grade. The normal stipulations for essence holes and extended medical care should of course apply.
Zhoul,
I think DeathStrobe was being serious here. That being said, Chrome Flesh already covers a lot of low-essence mental instabilities that are optional, but thematic. These could easily be applied to high magic users to represent the god complex and or mental disconnect such characters may exhibit.
-
Moved over from the Errata thread...
Why wasn't an Augmentation Upgrade Path provided in Chromed Flesh like Magic Types got for their Foci in Street Grimore?.
Nobody asked me to! I wouldn't at all mind adding it. The first time I even heard someone bring it up was when the guys at Critical Glitch were complaining. Knowing there's a demand, I'm more than happy to toss it out there.
While we're at it, I want rules to go crazy and pick up negative qualities at low essense. And rules to go crazy with high magic. That'd be sweet. More insanity for everyone!
I read this post a couple times... do you really think that not forcing characters to hemorrhage their Resources A investment from Chargen all over the operating table is "high powered" or "insane"? You do realize that it would be forcing a Mage to lose a point of Magic if they raise Spellcasting or Summoning. Upgrading 'ware makes a character weaker not stronger since they are losing so much starting investment every time they do it. No other Archetypes have to lose starting chargen investment to advance during play.
Tag line is "everything has a price." And right now there is very little cost in magic, like insanely low compared to being cybered.
It totally makes thematic sense too. The more you submerge the closer you get to the astral which disconnects you more from the meat world. Why shouldn't there be a cost to tapping into unfathomable magical powers from the deep metaplanes?
If the ultimate end game for a Street Sam is becoming a cyber zombie, why shouldn't mages have something just as dangerous and awesome?
I'd also like something crazy like that for Technomancers too. I'd also like something like that for deckers, but I can't think of anything that they actually tap into to become more powerful. Maybe ascend into the Matrix and become all powerful e-Ghosts with 40 depth. You know what...that sounds kind of cool actually. And depending on how bad ass Alice Haeffner is, there could be some fluff implications that is a thing.
-
Yeah, it's pretty much the same in 5th as 4th, just style points. The only mechanical advantage is networking it with your other cybergear, but that's kinda outlying. STill, *somebody* will want one, and that person gets a hug from me if they want it. :)
The main mechanical advantage is it goes from a 40 lbs Hockey bag sized thing to "fits in your cyberlimb". Now if only I had a medic with a cyberlimb. : )
-
Release date Sept 02, 2015 (http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/2015/08/26/september-street-dates/)
New artwork by Victor Moreno posted on Tumblr (http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/post/127667264756/games-coming-in-september):
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/b95a7b534b67c21eb3b4cde17598387b/tumblr_inline_ntpnmxW6JN1s9c9hj_500.jpg)
-
Small note: I originally didn't have the spidersilk gland in there. I'd never seen anyone use one, ever, and it had a HUGE swath of rules. I figured I could put three or four things into that space.
Then the artwork for this dropped, and it was a case of, "Welp, now it HAS to be there."
Jason saved my bacon and tossed it in after my work'd been uploaded.
I still feel like a goober. :)
-
I don't know if this has been bright up, but are the Capacity ratings on the Liminal Body mods correct? They seem to be in the range of "insanely high" and seems like your average runner is gonna run out of nuyen before they run out of room in those things,.
-
I don't know if this has been bright up, but are the Capacity ratings on the Liminal Body mods correct? They seem to be in the range of "insanely high" and seems like your average runner is gonna run out of nuyen before they run out of room in those things,.
Nope, they're correct! Centaur Body is based on the same as having four obvious legs, for instance, which is really a tad *less* than it should have since you also have that big long 'sub torso' to work with. Wheels and Tank! are for those who're feeling really frisky and want a body full of toys.
I have about six more to add in the future if they let me. :)
-
Wow, that's amazing, haha. What's your favorite set of addons to spend all that Capacity on, then? I like the idea of a mechanic with a Tank! body who has several different Built-in Toolkits, as a whole array of weird tools on arms that pop out of their chassis.
-
Wow, that's amazing, haha. What's your favorite set of addons to spend all that Capacity on, then? I like the idea of a mechanic with a Tank! body who has several different Built-in Toolkits, as a whole array of weird tools on arms that pop out of their chassis.
Well, my rigger, Tater Tot, has a cyberarm with a toolkit in it, so, I'm partial to that kind of thing. A Tank! type has likely tossed subtlety out the window, so you're gonna see guns ... lots and lots of guns. Which is kind of why it was called Tank! after all. :D
-
@Wakshanni... why wasn't something like a Skillwire Expert System included? There was a whole lot of focus on trying to bring Skillwires into relevant play but not being able to reroll Edge is kinda punishing for a Skillwire Character?
-
Answered over in the Eratta thread. Short form: Eitehr cheaper Skillwire stuff OR an Expert System, and I went with the lower cost of entry.
Hey, while we're here., I do have a favor to ask!
There's been a lot of talk about there being too much fluff in there, and we've seen reviews of the crunch, but would some of y'all mind reviewing teh FLUFF? Which stories are good, bad, or meh, which storyline aspects are good or bad, which sections you feel are too long and which you'd like to see more of, etc. Were the gear descriptions too long, too short, or about right? (Leaving aside teh rules, just the fluff, mind you!) Are there any plot seeds that you see that might be interesting, or areas that you'd like to see explored? (For instance, a while back I slipped in a mention of Wuxing making Qi foci in teh form of Luchador masks in Mexico. I don't think anyone picked up on that, so I likely won't follow up on it in the future, but, if there's some fluff that people *do* like, it may get expanded in the future.)
It's a harder thing to review, I know, but with the physical book hitting Wednesday (ask your local game store to order one today!), people will be in a better position to read, and I'm really curious what y'all feel is strong, weak, or whatever.
Be much obliged!
-
Answered over in the Eratta thread. Short form: Eitehr cheaper Skillwire stuff OR an Expert System, and I went with the lower cost of entry.
Hey, while we're here., I do have a favor to ask!
There's been a lot of talk about there being too much fluff in there, and we've seen reviews of the crunch, but would some of y'all mind reviewing teh FLUFF? Which stories are good, bad, or meh, which storyline aspects are good or bad, which sections you feel are too long and which you'd like to see more of, etc. Were the gear descriptions too long, too short, or about right? (Leaving aside teh rules, just the fluff, mind you!) Are there any plot seeds that you see that might be interesting, or areas that you'd like to see explored? (For instance, a while back I slipped in a mention of Wuxing making Qi foci in teh form of Luchador masks in Mexico. I don't think anyone picked up on that, so I likely won't follow up on it in the future, but, if there's some fluff that people *do* like, it may get expanded in the future.)
It's a harder thing to review, I know, but with the physical book hitting Wednesday (ask your local game store to order one today!), people will be in a better position to read, and I'm really curious what y'all feel is strong, weak, or whatever.
Be much obliged!
As someone who dropped out at the end of 3rd/beginning of 4th, I personally find the fluff to be one of the main reasons to bring me back to Shadowrun. It's a balancing act, but the way things are written strike me more as 2nd. 3rd had so many rules that the book (while great) just made me nod off.
With regards to Chrome Flesh, I find the story My Brother's Keeper to be well written. I think it captures the CFD problem really well.
The best fluff section for me was on the drugs and BTLs follow by the fixing what is broke. Both gave a good picture of what is going on and really bounced off story ideas for me to GM. The bioware section while full of information was the weakest as it was less about individuals and more about the entirety of the industry which feels like it should be more in a corporation book. The symbiot section did catch my eye as a fun little section that I could run off of.
-
I'm sorry, but if I want a fragging novel, I'll go out and buy a novel. When I get a rules source book for a game, I guess I'm funny like that, but I want to see a good deal of actual rules rather than a bunch of short stories with a few rules just sort of thrown in.
-
I'm sorry, but if I want a fragging novel, I'll go out and buy a novel. When I get a rules source book for a game, I guess I'm funny like that, but I want to see a good deal of actual rules rather than a bunch of short stories with a few rules just sort of thrown in.
+1,000,000,000
-
Noted.
However, if anyone that want sto chime in *about* the fluff, rather than how *much* there was, it'd be appreciated.
-
Noted.
However, if anyone that want sto chime in *about* the fluff, rather than how *much* there was, it'd be appreciated.
That's the thing. When there is too much it becomes tiresome and less enjoyable.
-
Answered over in the Eratta thread. Short form: Eitehr cheaper Skillwire stuff OR an Expert System, and I went with the lower cost of entry.
Hey, while we're here., I do have a favor to ask!
There's been a lot of talk about there being too much fluff in there, and we've seen reviews of the crunch, but would some of y'all mind reviewing teh FLUFF? Which stories are good, bad, or meh, which storyline aspects are good or bad, which sections you feel are too long and which you'd like to see more of, etc. Were the gear descriptions too long, too short, or about right? (Leaving aside teh rules, just the fluff, mind you!) Are there any plot seeds that you see that might be interesting, or areas that you'd like to see explored? (For instance, a while back I slipped in a mention of Wuxing making Qi foci in teh form of Luchador masks in Mexico. I don't think anyone picked up on that, so I likely won't follow up on it in the future, but, if there's some fluff that people *do* like, it may get expanded in the future.)
It's a harder thing to review, I know, but with the physical book hitting Wednesday (ask your local game store to order one today!), people will be in a better position to read, and I'm really curious what y'all feel is strong, weak, or whatever.
Be much obliged!
Of course... I post enough about the Crunch between here & the Errata thread I'll give you my 2¥ on the Fluff. I'll preface it by saying that I HATED the CFD stuff though I'm coming around to just not liking it at this point. Ever since I realized last year that they were going to get and a spaceship(s) and leave... just been waiting for it to happen. Then this year the published material said that they were Monads & they want to get on a spaceship(s) and leave... so expecting them to do it soon, hopefully. I hated how stupid the new Battlestar Galactica ended in the final season and really want this "We are AI not Metahumans" revelation to finally happen, so they'll go away. Bug Spirits invading from the Metaplanes... yes! Dragon Civil Wars... yes! AI and esoteric ideas about what it means to be alive or xenomorphic differences during a zombie apocalypse... no! Just so any bias I have is laid out beforehand.
My brothers keeper was very well written with a poignant & heartfelt ending that it attempts to convey. It being CFD (or any kind of mind control plot device) really robs the sense of regret as well as the fleeting redemption from the death. When Darth Vader takes off his helmet & they talk before he dies.... he realizes that he was evil & had made all the wrong choices that led to that point. It provides an inner turmoil that anyone under any kind of mind control lacks. Yes it's sad just like killing your friend who got bit by a zombie but at a fundamental level it has no more storytelling impact than any other Natural Disaster. Life's a bitch... then you die!
The story from Clusterf*cked was great... that's my kind of run. Where you find a weak & greedy guard to prey on. Tell him you are only going to take a little so his greed can over power his sense, then steal everything not nailed down & shoot him in the head. Obviously he can't be trusted and has no loyalty, so you geek him cause there's no reason why he should be around to provide physical descriptions which he'll inevitably do. But then I'm probably a cold hearted bastard.
So then the rest of the chapter is more about CFD... not that big of a fan as stated.
The Chapter on Doc - Wagon & Street Docs was very well written & informative. It's just that a $2.99 pdf would have been a more appropriate place for it with a few more pages added to it. Sourcebooks are cool & I really like reading the Lore but that's not the place for Splatbooks as a whole.
I've made this post long enough... I'll comment on more chapters later.
-
I can't agree enough.
Too much fluff is doltish in a rules book.
Just feels like catalyst is shoveling in tons of fluff causes it's cheaper to produce, basically it's cheap filler.
Please put this stuff in a novel or shadows in focus fluff book.
Stop the insanity and focus on quality, well written, play tested and edited rules books.
-
Where did you get the idea that there's a cost difference between producing crunch and fluff? If anything, layout decisions would make crunch the cheaper of the two.
-
I suspect it just means there is an expectation that considering fluff is easier than playtesting/balancing crunch.
Though in the case of Shadowrun, fluff has to be compared with years of background, whereas balancing is sometimes less hard.
I suspect it's mainly that (though less in the case of this book, certainly with Run Faster), large amounts of fluff have made the cut where crunch on how rules work (eg Metasapients, Shapeshifters) didn't.
-
@Wakshanni... so the Fluff for the "Wireless War of '74" was kinda neat & showed some of the backdeal ways that the Corps fuck each other over, the fact that Skillwires are DOGSHIT makes it irrelevant. So the Crunch being totally unviable as a system means the greatest Fluff in the world can't save it from obscurity. There's no reason to ever use it for a Skill Monkey Role, from a straight numbers perspective. Skilljack 6 (30 Karma) + Skillwires 6 (60 Karma) + Chipjack 6 (3 Karma) just to buy into the system... then Activesoft 6 (15 Karma) of which you'll probably want a couple to fill your Skill/Chipjack to capacity with a monthly fee (10 Karma.)
Going Skills Priority A with Jack of All Trades is a much smarter things to do. It costs 25 Karma to go from 0 to 5 Skill Rating. That you can use Edge on and is always available to you. Lots of 6s with Specializations to start with 10 Skill Group points & you'll fill secondary Skills out within a few runs fairly easily. So the greatest Fluff in the world can't save bad Crunch & just gets lost in the overarching discontent.
-
If you want to produce a good "fluff", then produce one that reverses all the CFD anti-nanotech stuff and get all the mechanically useful implants brought back down to reasonable levels of pricing as a result.
-
No play-testing.
Imho it's a lot harder to create well thought out, balanced and carefully edited for clarity rules than it is to generate many short form fan fic.
The pool of people who can do the former well is much smaller than the pool that can do the latter.
+ History of Catalyst's 5e Srun products would seem to back up this assumption as the endless posts on this and other forums trying to fix borked rules and guess intent would indicate.
Anyhoo rant off ///
Where did you get the idea that there's a cost difference between producing crunch and fluff? If anything, layout decisions would make crunch the cheaper of the two.
-
I love chrome flesh the fluff has already given me some ideals for my game and it reminds me of the 3rd format which I loved I think having fluff mixed in the books is a better way to explore the shadowrun world than a bunch of small sourcebooks that often hide what you looking for or that the sourcebook your looking for cost you 20.00 for a quarter page of information.
Keep up the good work and please do not let the hack & slashes make you gut our RPG.
-
I love chrome flesh the fluff has already given me some ideals for my game and it reminds me of the 3rd format which I loved I think having fluff mixed in the books is a better way to explore the shadowrun world than a bunch of small sourcebooks that often hide what you looking for or that the sourcebook your looking for cost you 20.00 for a quarter page of information.
Keep up the good work and please do not let the hack & slashes make you gut our RPG.
It isn't being "hack and slash" to expect a decent amount of actual rules to be in a RULES source book.
-
Any street date for the deadwood version yet?
-
Already released (early September?).
-
Really? Guess I've been living in a cave somewhere
-
That's not always a bad thing... ;)
-
True, but those timeshares with a Grizzly can be rough. :P
-
Un-bear-able ;D
-
Any chance of getting an updated version of this with proper PDF bookmarks, like what was done with Rigger 5.0?
-
So the German version "Bodyshop" is out...
(https://i.imgflip.com/y2kwq.jpg)
-
So the German version "Bodyshop" is out...
(https://i.imgflip.com/y2kwq.jpg)
Eh, they've been here for some time now, waiting in the shadows.
-
Your envy is very justified! 8)
-
Your envy is very justified! 8)
It's not envy... it's ****ing annoyance that none of these so called fixes ever officially make it to the English version, making me feel like a second class customer because I can't read German.
-
well, I know from first hand experience that the changes in the German Version of the Books were and probably are still approved by Jason Hardy himself.
So, CGL has a English list with all the changes with page references of the English Books etc. they are just not releasing it for whatever reason.
And as long as CGL does not change the errata politic, you have to learn German to get the official Errata for SR5.
-
Your envy is very justified! 8)
It's not envy... it's ****ing annoyance that none of these so called fixes ever officially make it to the English version, making me feel like a second class customer because I can't read German.
Unfortunately this problem goes back to at least 4th Edition. I came in after SR4A released, and it was ages before errata was released. From what I understood, people had been waiting far longer than that for the errata. :-\
-
It sadly still gives the impression on where the company's interests lies ... And it isn't in the quality of their product nor the satisfaction of their fans. Individual writers might fight hard to weed out mistakes and misunderstands but the top does nothing except extremely rarely send word down the chain that the issues are being looked at but again within any official proof.
All that is happening is simply that more material is being released and English version users stare with envy across the pond to Germany.
If these lists in English exist it requires very little in terms of time and resources to release them ...
For now all we have is Missions' FAQ
-
To avoid some more confusion for those not able to read german or simply are not interested or involved in the german boards:
- Yes many changes are indeed offical erratas and some of them are even approved as "they are approved by CGL" (which seems to mean JMH as there is only one "developer")
- The german publisher does not release a errata list as well, so the only way to find those changes is by text comparison between the english version and the german version.
- They try to clearly stay away from any rules changes. If there is something which the german community feels like it needs change the usual way is to introduce it as a "optional" rule which is clearly marked as such one and very distinctive from what could call "official errata"
- This does not make the german version error free, neither when looking at translations or at the free room for interpretation. In the german boards there is just as much disussion about very often the exact same rules as here. It is pretty much a "ok, let's say 80% of the changes are indeed errata, let's hope this one falls into this area".
If these lists in English exist it requires very little in terms of time and resources to release them ...
From my knowledge "list" is a pretty much not what one can call those. It is more or less the sum of e-mail conversations between CGL and Pegasus.
-
It's not envy... it's ****ing annoyance that none of these so called fixes ever officially make it to the English version, making me feel like a second class customer because I can't read German.
So, did you ever bought an English SR product in the last few years? Yes? Well, then you supported the very same system selling you products which in turn make you feel like a second class customer.
-
Yes I buy the English products because I really love the setting, going to take far worse than the issues now to get rid of that.
@NoxMortem yes I keep hearing that these changes are official... but always second and third hand. I have yet to see anyone officially representing CGL come out and officially state these changes are to be treated like official errata.
-
@NoxMortem yes I keep hearing that these changes are official... but always second and third hand. I have yet to see anyone officially representing CGL come out and officially state these changes are to be treated like official errata.
And you'll never hear that, because:
- Pegasus is a different company, and although Catalyst seems to approve at least some of the changes, they (Catalyst) never made any statements concerning the changes back in 4th edition that I can see.
- Other than once in a great while when the fans get really mad about something as a collective, or something is failing spectacularly (like the Battle Shop), you generally only see statements from the moderators and writers here. If I remember correctly, the last time J. Hardy posted was last August?
I love the setting, I always have, but I haven't been able to play since last November because I can only get Missions games and there's far too much broken right now. I get my Shadowrun fix from the computer games now, and they're great, but there's only so many times you can do the same story-line before it loses its charm. For the first time since Shadowrun first released, I've been eyeing other cyberpunk products, such as Interface Zero. Anymore I'm just buying Shadowrun's books merely for the stories. :-\
-
And as long as CGL does not change the errata politic, you have to learn German to get the official Errata for SR5.
Or ask the forum members from germany on specific rules and how they are changed in the Pegasus version. ;D
-
Not having to do that with every release would be a Ghostsend, wouldn't you think?
-
@NoxMortem yes I keep hearing that these changes are official... but always second and third hand. I have yet to see anyone officially representing CGL come out and officially state these changes are to be treated like official errata.
You will never hear about it because CGL does not care about errata. I have wrote the Change Document for War! back in the day so I have the answers Jason Hardy gave to the Change Requests. Purely reading the answers you get a very clear impression, that he just does not care about fixing the rules.
Example:
I proposed a change to the Monofilament grenade because the Wording "contains several hundred Meter Monofilament Wire" which is worth 1000Y per Meter on its own is really unfortunate. Hardys response was to change the price of the Grenade from 150Y to 15000Y, which is just ridiculous...
My Impression is, that CGL and Jason Hardy do just not care about errata, the books have sold, why invest time and money to fix them afterwards? Sure most of the Freelancers certainly care about the quality of the books, but if the "boss" does not care, what can they do about it.
So to be constructive here: All the Rule Changes are provided for CGL by Pegasus free of charge, they would just put them in a publishable form, so a little layout work to create a pdf and the put it out there for all to download. A couple of hours work at most. So maybe you should start to do that to keep the fans happy.
But I guess it will never happen, as you can read in Rigger 5 CGL put the missing Autosoft Prices in R5, because of the poor poor players without the Internet, that will not be able to download errata only published online. Suggestion: Maybe you could do both? put it online AND print it in Rigger5 otherwise it seems I have to buy a 50$ book just to get my Core Rules fixed. Oh, maybe that is the idea....
and now I get banned for my "vicious personal attacks", I guess.
PS: The German Core Rules also have an Index, additional Content for the ADL, professional proofreading and costs less than half of the US Version (60$ vs 20€(ca. 23$ including taxes). (And there is a softcover version for 10€ if you want to save some money)
-
Or maybe you could fact-check before repeatedly claiming nonsense?
The Autosoft Errata have been available for over 2 years now, online.
.
-
Duellist_D, fact-checking or better reading comprehension could indeed have prevented you from claiming nonsense. Because that's exactly what he said, the errata is online and now also in Rigger 5 instead of reprinting a fixed Core Book.
-
Haha, you are a funny and witty guy.
Not.
Read it again especially this part:
"Maybe you could(!!!) do both? put it online and print it in Rigger 5(...)"
There is no such thing to be done, since it already has been done.
Which he obviously didn't check on, because if he had, he wouldn't have written a request for something to be done in the future, that is already done.