Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: chadawc on <04-16-13/0005:44>

Title: Military armor
Post by: chadawc on <04-16-13/0005:44>
I was wondering if the slots for capacity on Military armor are separate from the Armor modification that can be done to the armor. For example the Fire Resistant modification 6 would take up 6 mod slots for medium military armor leaving it with 15 more mods left. The capacity for it how ever is 15 and that you could put in the enhanced strength rating 3 option that would take up 3 slots for the capacity but not effect the mod slots. I may be looking at this wrong and the capacity and mod slots may be one in the same but it doesn't read that way to me in the rules. Thank you for your time and help. 
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <04-16-13/0026:48>
The capacity replaces the other modding system.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Reaver on <04-16-13/0212:08>
just remember this:


you pull out the milspec armor, the GM pulls out the milspec commandos, Milspec mages, and the Milspec drones.

shoot first, shoot straight, and get the hell outta Dodge keeps you alive longer then "Me Tank, look at Me In Armor"....
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: All4BigGuns on <04-16-13/0225:13>
just remember this:


you pull out the milspec armor, the GM pulls out the milspec commandos, Milspec mages, and the Milspec drones.

shoot first, shoot straight, and get the hell outta Dodge keeps you alive longer then "Me Tank, look at Me In Armor"....

Not at first. This is a trap far too many fall into. The whole "escalation" thing does not happen immediately, and it does not go straight to multiple Special Forces units with rocket launchers showing up to blow you up.

Yes, eventually bigger guns may very well be brought to bear, but security teams are not just going to "magically" turn into Mil-Spec commando squads with really big guns just because of one, two or even three times seeing someone using such gear--probably not even the fourth or fifth.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Reaver on <04-16-13/0342:44>
just remember this:


you pull out the milspec armor, the GM pulls out the milspec commandos, Milspec mages, and the Milspec drones.

shoot first, shoot straight, and get the hell outta Dodge keeps you alive longer then "Me Tank, look at Me In Armor"....

Not at first. This is a trap far too many fall into. The whole "escalation" thing does not happen immediately, and it does not go straight to multiple Special Forces units with rocket launchers showing up to blow you up.

Yes, eventually bigger guns may very well be brought to bear, but security teams are not just going to "magically" turn into Mil-Spec commando squads with really big guns just because of one, two or even three times seeing someone using such gear--probably not even the fourth or fifth.


this depends on the "realism" of your gam e(and I use that term loosely in a Sci-fi/Fantasy game :P)

Lets say you are using this armor on a run to a Corp facility located in the city (say a "B" zone like Tacoma and not in the heart of the Redmond Barrens where no one gives a crap :P)

So you get in the front door, and the shit hits the fan... you have security coming for you!!!
well, the first wave of the security are going to be your typical goons... a couple of drones armed with heavy pistols and tazer type weaponary. The guards are going to be in armored jackets armed with heavy pistols and tazers... your typical "excuse me Sir, you don't belong here" force......

Until they round the corner and go "OMG! WTF??!?! HE'S IN MILSPEC ARMOR???" At this point, realism sets in (or SHOULD) No guard is going to try to go toe to toe with anyone in Mil spec armor when they are so vastly out gunned. the guards will retreat while screaming bloody murder into their links for back up and give an assessment of the situation.

For now, it's not a rolling gun battle, for a case of containment, herding and control. The building Rigger (assuming he's still up) will start to use the building against the mil spec guy by locking doors, dropping gates, and playing with the lighting. The spider might try throwing some drones at the Runner to tie him up and slow him down, and the security guards will do what they can with out readily endangering themselves.

All said, a SWAT level team is probably about 5 to 10 minutes away, and this will include a Mage or two who will probably send a spirit or two after the runner (the spirits can get there much quicker.... 1 to 2 minutes)

Now, even a SWAT level team as only a fair chance to take down a milspec armored foe, so they will try to use novel and unconventional tactics rather then your typical 'we line up like ducks to be shot' that most people seem to think :P Overlapping fields of fire, flash bangs, drones, spirits, Mojo and the kitchen sink will be used.... anything that can throw off the Runner and not expose the SWAT team to deadly, lethal fire. Simply cause they too are only there to herd, and contain the Runner.

The REAL threat is the corp's own Military troops! now these bad boys generally are not sittingin a little room waiting to be called on, so they take time to get on site... say 30minutes to 90 minutes to mobilize and another 10 to get on site. And this is when the Runner is truly screwed!

But this is also the window that the Runner has to get the heck outta there, and A lot can happen in 40 minutes to two hours (like running out of ammo :P) And then there is also the fact that the Corps are not above calling in the Police (that is what the police are for after all!) and the police are not going to just send a squad car or two, they are going to send what ever they can to contain the Runners to the Corp facility, cause after all, they don't want or need some heavily armed crazy running around the streets of the city!

Mil spec armor is serious bad news for Runners, it paints a huge neon sign on you and makes your life harder then you can know.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Mirikon on <04-16-13/0402:30>
I tend to give my characters multiple armor loadouts. I have a casual/public set (Lined coat or similar, or perhaps some holowear, depending on the character, with PPP). Not going to stand up to heavy assault, but it can be worn most anywhere without raising eyebrows. Then you have your 'work' set (sometimes this is the lined coat from before, or a chameleon suit, or heavier stuff depending on the character's armor max). Generally, this set will draw more attention if you, say, walk into a bar anywhere outside the Barrens wearing it. Then you have your "Drek is going DOWN" set. This is where milspec comes in, for those times when you're going in expecting a drekload of trouble, and you'll need the milspec to either blend in or just to survive.

Like Reaver said, after the first alarms go off, you're going to have escalating responses as time goes on. If the milspec is the difference between you getting bogged down in a firefight, and being able to break through before the real milspec boys show up, then you're going to want the milspec. And if you have the nuyen to spend on milspec, you might as well get the sucker ruthenium coated. That will help with the whole 'being seen' bit. The real key, though, is an exit plan, which doesn't stop once you're outside the facility. Finding someplace to change from your milspec (which conveniently hides your biometrics) into something more casual (and switch from the stolen van to your regular van while you're at it) is what you want to do. Then you've just got to act like a normal sheeple when the police stop you at the roadblocks, and let the Face do the talking.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: All4BigGuns on <04-16-13/1003:27>
just remember this:


you pull out the milspec armor, the GM pulls out the milspec commandos, Milspec mages, and the Milspec drones.

shoot first, shoot straight, and get the hell outta Dodge keeps you alive longer then "Me Tank, look at Me In Armor"....

Not at first. This is a trap far too many fall into. The whole "escalation" thing does not happen immediately, and it does not go straight to multiple Special Forces units with rocket launchers showing up to blow you up.

Yes, eventually bigger guns may very well be brought to bear, but security teams are not just going to "magically" turn into Mil-Spec commando squads with really big guns just because of one, two or even three times seeing someone using such gear--probably not even the fourth or fifth.


this depends on the "realism" of your gam e(and I use that term loosely in a Sci-fi/Fantasy game :P)

Lets say you are using this armor on a run to a Corp facility located in the city (say a "B" zone like Tacoma and not in the heart of the Redmond Barrens where no one gives a crap :P)

So you get in the front door, and the shit hits the fan... you have security coming for you!!!
well, the first wave of the security are going to be your typical goons... a couple of drones armed with heavy pistols and tazer type weaponary. The guards are going to be in armored jackets armed with heavy pistols and tazers... your typical "excuse me Sir, you don't belong here" force......

Until they round the corner and go "OMG! WTF??!?! HE'S IN MILSPEC ARMOR???" At this point, realism sets in (or SHOULD) No guard is going to try to go toe to toe with anyone in Mil spec armor when they are so vastly out gunned. the guards will retreat while screaming bloody murder into their links for back up and give an assessment of the situation.

For now, it's not a rolling gun battle, for a case of containment, herding and control. The building Rigger (assuming he's still up) will start to use the building against the mil spec guy by locking doors, dropping gates, and playing with the lighting. The spider might try throwing some drones at the Runner to tie him up and slow him down, and the security guards will do what they can with out readily endangering themselves.

All said, a SWAT level team is probably about 5 to 10 minutes away, and this will include a Mage or two who will probably send a spirit or two after the runner (the spirits can get there much quicker.... 1 to 2 minutes)

Now, even a SWAT level team as only a fair chance to take down a milspec armored foe, so they will try to use novel and unconventional tactics rather then your typical 'we line up like ducks to be shot' that most people seem to think :P Overlapping fields of fire, flash bangs, drones, spirits, Mojo and the kitchen sink will be used.... anything that can throw off the Runner and not expose the SWAT team to deadly, lethal fire. Simply cause they too are only there to herd, and contain the Runner.

The REAL threat is the corp's own Military troops! now these bad boys generally are not sittingin a little room waiting to be called on, so they take time to get on site... say 30minutes to 90 minutes to mobilize and another 10 to get on site. And this is when the Runner is truly screwed!

But this is also the window that the Runner has to get the heck outta there, and A lot can happen in 40 minutes to two hours (like running out of ammo :P) And then there is also the fact that the Corps are not above calling in the Police (that is what the police are for after all!) and the police are not going to just send a squad car or two, they are going to send what ever they can to contain the Runners to the Corp facility, cause after all, they don't want or need some heavily armed crazy running around the streets of the city!

Mil spec armor is serious bad news for Runners, it paints a huge neon sign on you and makes your life harder then you can know.

That is not "realism". That is still a "magical" upgrade, and is just utterly ridiculous. If you want the "realism" stuff, number one, you have to remove everything from the game that does not exist in the modern day, real world (pretty much everything in the game), and number two, it will take several months for the "escalation" stuff to show any measurable increase.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Reaver on <04-16-13/1422:43>


That is not "realism". That is still a "magical" upgrade, and is just utterly ridiculous. If you want the "realism" stuff, number one, you have to remove everything from the game that does not exist in the modern day, real world (pretty much everything in the game), and number two, it will take several months for the "escalation" stuff to show any measurable increase.

well then please provide us with what you would consider to be a realistic (in a sci-fi/fantasy game) level of response to a typical run, let alone one where the Corp is VASTLY outgunned? I would be most interested on your view (So I can see where you are coming from)
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: All4BigGuns on <04-16-13/1427:48>
What is the biggest advantage corporate security has over a runner team? Numbers. Even with military armor, enough bullets in the air from enough people will take that "tank" down regardless of what the security team is using. Hell, they would go down even more quickly because the most likely runner to have that armor will have the capacity to take less Stun than Physical.

Sure, eventually the corporate security will have big enough guns to penetrate that armor, but until they've had probably around half a dozen incursions from people with such gear, the bottom line of profit would prevent them from being willing to expend the resources to do so.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Reaver on <04-16-13/1507:48>
What is the biggest advantage corporate security has over a runner team? Numbers. Even with military armor, enough bullets in the air from enough people will take that "tank" down regardless of what the security team is using. Hell, they would go down even more quickly because the most likely runner to have that armor will have the capacity to take less Stun than Physical.

Sure, eventually the corporate security will have big enough guns to penetrate that armor, but until they've had probably around half a dozen incursions from people with such gear, the bottom line of profit would prevent them from being willing to expend the resources to do so.

I guess we view things very differently.


We know from canon material that many Corps already maintain military level troops. And we know from various write ups that even their security has to deal with a variety of threats from the simple rambling hobo, to angry ex-wageslaves, to Neo-anarchist mobs, to shadowrunners.... Now, that said, not EVERY building a Corp owns is going to have military troops stationed in it. Nor is every building going to have Magical security. But you can bet that a Corp with a sizable presence in a city is going to have both (magical and military) troops somewhere in the sprawl.

As for the argument of that they WOULD NOT have said troops because of bottom lines... well that depends on what you consider to be the bigger drain on the bottom line. Dead security guards (and thus death payouts to surviving family), lost production from low morale ("My Corp can't protect me/doesn't care about me"), lost vital research and resources due to incursions and property damage.

 To me, it makes sense for them to have scaled security to handle all levels of threats that could possibly hurt the bottom line. After all, the guys with tazers and pistols are not going to make a mob of rioting Neo-anarchists back down.... But a squad of security personnel equipped with anti-riot gear, sub-machine guns, tear gas and sour dispositions will give them pause. but like I said earlier, they are probably NOT going to located at every facility a Corp owns in a sprawl, but located somewhere where they can respond to calls for help from all facilities in a reasonable amount of time.


but, that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: JoeNapalm on <04-16-13/1524:26>

If you're going into places that can't field a response to milspec gear, why is Mr. Johnson paying for overkill?

If it's a weefle corp, he can save money and hire weefle Runners.

You don't hire top talent to knock over the Stuffer Shack.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Reaver on <04-16-13/1608:28>

If you're going into places that can't field a response to milspec gear, why is Mr. Johnson paying for overkill?

If it's a weefle corp, he can save money and hire weefle Runners.

You don't hire top talent to knock over the Stuffer Shack.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

true, but in typical player (not Character) logic, they usually bring their biggest and baddest to every run!

"Hmmmm..... so the Johnson wants us to grab a hardcopy of file #11821-123a from the records room so Tikka-Toys has no back up for their next Tikka-Takka-Tonka toy...... Guess I'll bring my heavy military armor, my mini-gun, ballista backpack. and my tazer....."
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: JoeNapalm on <04-16-13/1617:04>

If you're going into places that can't field a response to milspec gear, why is Mr. Johnson paying for overkill?

If it's a weefle corp, he can save money and hire weefle Runners.

You don't hire top talent to knock over the Stuffer Shack.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

true, but in typical player (not Character) logic, they usually bring their biggest and baddest to every run!

"Hmmmm..... so the Johnson wants us to grab a hardcopy of file #11821-123a from the records room so Tikka-Toys has no back up for their next Tikka-Takka-Tonka toy...... Guess I'll bring my heavy military armor, my mini-gun, ballista backpack. and my tazer....."

I guess I'm more Trench Coat than Mohawk.

If Mr Johnson is spending the money to hire that kind of hardware for a job, there's more to the job than meets the eye...

...either that, or Mr. Johnson is going to be pretty unhappy that you brought mini-guns and milspec armor (and all of the extra heat that accompanies this) on his milkrun.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: PeterSmith on <04-16-13/1618:42>
But you can bet that a Corp with a sizable presence in a city is going to have both (magical and military) troops somewhere in the sprawl.

It's one thing to have a presence in the sprawl. It's another thing to be in the same building. I live in Chicago, when this place gets crowded it's nasty to move about. I have an old co-worker who moved to NYC. He said the daily crowds are about as bad as Chicago's busiest crowds. I can't imagine that a heavy response team would always be able to get from their staging facility out to where the runners are very quickly.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: JoeNapalm on <04-16-13/1624:31>

"Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads."

(http://www.history.navy.mil/planes/v-22.jpg)


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Reaver on <04-16-13/1624:54>
But you can bet that a Corp with a sizable presence in a city is going to have both (magical and military) troops somewhere in the sprawl.

It's one thing to have a presence in the sprawl. It's another thing to be in the same building. I live in Chicago, when this place gets crowded it's nasty to move about. I have an old co-worker who moved to NYC. He said the daily crowds are about as bad as Chicago's busiest crowds. I can't imagine that a heavy response team would always be able to get from their staging facility out to where the runners are very quickly.

not on foot or by car, that's for sure!

but by helicopter/ rotor drone? sure. A lot of Companies make use of this travel method today, let alone in 60 years.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: All4BigGuns on <04-16-13/2017:28>
The point is that people go way too overboard with the "escalation" business, and honestly, for some people the goodies like that are a big part of why they play the game. To "magically" upgrade all the security forces to Special Forces Commando Units because someone wants/takes military armor is just wrong to do to someone.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: RHat on <04-16-13/2023:19>
The point is that people go way too overboard with the "escalation" business, and honestly, for some people the goodies like that are a big part of why they play the game. To "magically" upgrade all the security forces to Special Forces Commando Units because someone wants/takes military armor is just wrong to do to someone.

On the other hand, upgrading the jobs they're hired for makes sense, and helps a bit with that feeling of progression - but that still won't be instant.  It would take a couple runs after getting that sort of capability to become known for having that sort of capability.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: All4BigGuns on <04-16-13/2032:48>
The point is that people go way too overboard with the "escalation" business, and honestly, for some people the goodies like that are a big part of why they play the game. To "magically" upgrade all the security forces to Special Forces Commando Units because someone wants/takes military armor is just wrong to do to someone.

On the other hand, upgrading the jobs they're hired for makes sense, and helps a bit with that feeling of progression - but that still won't be instant.  It would take a couple runs after getting that sort of capability to become known for having that sort of capability.

A couple runs at minimum and that would also be against the same corporation. More than likely it would be around the half dozen mark at least unless for some strange reason all of their jobs are against the same corp.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: RHat on <04-16-13/2037:19>
The point is that people go way too overboard with the "escalation" business, and honestly, for some people the goodies like that are a big part of why they play the game. To "magically" upgrade all the security forces to Special Forces Commando Units because someone wants/takes military armor is just wrong to do to someone.

On the other hand, upgrading the jobs they're hired for makes sense, and helps a bit with that feeling of progression - but that still won't be instant.  It would take a couple runs after getting that sort of capability to become known for having that sort of capability.

A couple runs at minimum and that would also be against the same corporation. More than likely it would be around the half dozen mark at least unless for some strange reason all of their jobs are against the same corp.

...  No, it would not take multiple runs against the same corp for their rep to shift such that they get hired for different sorts of jobs - now they're being sent at the places where those assets were already in place to begin with; accordingly, they're also getting paid more (and, to keep things balanced, should be getting more Karma).
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <04-17-13/0014:19>
You two aren't disagreeing, you're just not understanding each other.  RHat means the runner will be hired for bigger and better things once he's known for being able to handle them.  A4BG is saying that it'd take quite a few runs against a corp for them to upgrade their stuff just to deter the specific runner.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: All4BigGuns on <04-17-13/0022:43>
You two aren't disagreeing, you're just not understanding each other.  RHat means the runner will be hired for bigger and better things once he's known for being able to handle them.  A4BG is saying that it'd take quite a few runs against a corp for them to upgrade their stuff just to deter the specific runner.

Yeah, it was seeming like we were talking about two different things...

Though on an earlier comment, if a Johnson ever says the phrase "milk run" then that is generally a good cue to bust out that heavy-duty hardware because it is going to go FUBAR rapidly.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Reaver on <04-17-13/0051:50>
You two aren't disagreeing, you're just not understanding each other.  RHat means the runner will be hired for bigger and better things once he's known for being able to handle them.  A4BG is saying that it'd take quite a few runs against a corp for them to upgrade their stuff just to deter the specific runner.

Yeah, it was seeming like we were talking about two different things...

Though on an earlier comment, if a Johnson ever says the phrase "milk run" then that is generally a good cue to bust out that heavy-duty hardware because it is going to go FUBAR rapidly.

Oh come on!!!! You ALWAYS trust the Johnson :p
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <04-17-13/0059:28>
*robot voice* Always...trust...Johnson... beep!

No, seriously, he's right.  If I heard anyone say a run was a milk run or any other euphemism for easy, I'd be more tempted to shoot him and duck out while I still had the chance.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Shaidar on <04-19-13/0300:20>
Piece of cake, kindergarten playdate, milk run anyone?

Mil Spec anything at character generation is more than likely money/BPs/Karma mis-spent.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: JoeNapalm on <04-19-13/0635:32>

That's a pretty broad generalization.

Depends on the style of play, starting BP, character concept...

I can see where a Pink Mohawk table would be rolling milspec heavy.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Mirikon on <04-19-13/0651:20>
I've only had milspec armor on one character, and that was primarily for background purposes, or the rare case when they were going in expecting a drekstorm. He had other armor for his day-to-day work.

Really, even in the pinkest of Pink Mohawk campaigns, wearing milspec in any situation where you're not A) on a military base, B) storming a stronghold where 'shock and awe' are necessary to even have a prayer of coming out alive, or C) taking on magical threats like toxic shamans or bugs, it just draws too much attention.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: UmaroVI on <04-19-13/0835:07>
Yeah, MilSpec armor is very niche in the same sense that unconcealable forbidden weapons like assault cannons and whatnot are. Also, a lot of people seem to have some real misconceptions about how good it is. The big selling point of MilSpec armor is that if you are an ordinary dude with Body in the 2-6 range, you can get solid armor scores out of MilSpec, but past that it is actually going to be less armor than you could get from conventional armor. It by no means makes you invincible - it doesn't even make you as tough as an average ork or troll wearing totally legal armor.

Actually, the only characters I've seen use it have been hackers and riggers who wanted to avoid face-to-face contact as much as possible, and operated under the assumption that if people saw their armor the run was already going south and they would rather be better defended.

Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Mirikon on <04-19-13/0915:22>
Well, there are limited uses besides that. Infiltrating a Renraku building is a lot easier when the team is wearing Red Samurai armor, and the Face knows how to sling the lingo, for instance. But as for actual combat effectiveness, I agree, it is primarily good for the characters with mid-range Body scores, since milspec encumbrance is Body*3 instead of Body*2. If you're a troll tank, you're better off with other armor.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: JoeNapalm on <04-19-13/0949:30>

I, personally, never use it. Even on my tanks.

At least not as starting gear...maybe in a SOL kit stashed away somewhere...

But I've seen people run games where they walk around in the stuff...silly...but it's their game.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Angelone on <04-19-13/1225:05>
One of my PCs has a set of ruthenium covered light military armor for heavy ops. It's definitely not everyday wear but it's fun to roll hard every now and then.   
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: KarmaInferno on <04-20-13/2351:44>
As I've said before, why use milspec when all the various armor stacking and modding rules allow ordinary armor clothing to be just about as good?

Also, the corp response to milspec attackers isn't going to be more milspec. It's likely to be great big honking spirits, because those can be dispatched and arrive at a facility in minutes.

Oh, the corp WILL eventually send on the boys in walking tanks with god weapons, but those take time to gather and field. More time than the runners will take to do their thing and escape. So the corps need a high speed high power response that can be launched from halfway across the city, or heck the next city over. That means spirits.



-k
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <04-21-13/0053:42>
What's the highest armor rating you can get from modding and stacking armor?  Lay it out for me.  My guess is... 

SWAT Armor, 12/10 with 18 rating slots open.  Gel packs, Fire resistance 6, Electric resistance 6, YNT Softweave, whatever else.
PPP full set for +2/+6, 9 mod slots, throw in ice resistance 3 and acid resistance 6.
FFBA Full for +6/+2, 9 mod slots, throw in...whatever.  Thermal 6, maybe?
Swat helmet at +2/+2.

This brings you up to 22/27 Armor and 19/26 Encumbrance, so you would need 13 Body minus your strength to wear it without penalty.  Any better combo?
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: UmaroVI on <04-21-13/1657:02>
You can slap on variuos other things. Quizzel Fairy/Dragon Wings (Attitude) and the Tactical Neck Insulator (better known as the Moonsilver Line Scarf from Arsenal), which can have the attitude Weaves on it. Depending on how your group rules Weaves work, you can also replace SWAT armor with Vashon Island Steampunk and put weaves on every piece but that will not fly at most tables. You also might be able to wear a Ballistic Mask but again your GM might draw the line at the fourth piece of protective headgear. You can also use a shield, but that's generally not worth it.

Where MilSpec armor has the advantage is for low-Body people who couldn't wear all that crap anyways, and can cap out with MilSpec using that mod it gets that reduces movement penalties, Softweave with the strength bonus it gives, and the x3 encumbrance. For a Body 3 dude the difference is enough that if you have the spare money for times when you don't care about subtlety, it is worth it. Past about Body 6 MilSpec just sucks.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Glyph on <04-21-13/1822:25>
<snip> the Tactical Neck Insulator (better known as the Moonsilver Line Scarf from Arsenal) <snip>

Hey, Yoko!  Would you lend us your scarf?  Gurren Lagann needs more armor!
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Mithlas on <04-22-13/2203:45>
Past about Body 6 MilSpec just sucks.
I seem to recall that milspec armor had better capacity than other armor, but I'm away from books right now.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-22-13/2210:51>
Heavy MilSpec is at 20 iirc.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Angelone on <04-22-13/2323:06>
Past about Body 6 MilSpec just sucks.

Pay no attention to this one. To him everything sucks, from Adepts without implants to the sample characters in the core book, and now military armor. Have to wonder why he even bothers with the game if he hates it that much...

He's right about the sample characters and I tend to agree with the adept thing as well, military armor sucking not so much.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: RHat on <04-22-13/2357:34>
Military Armour may not be the BEST option for raw Ballistic/Impact values anymore past a certain Body score, but given it's access to unique enhancements "useless" is entirely inaccurate.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: UmaroVI on <04-23-13/0843:55>
Well, in fairness, it's not like there's a sharp threshold where it's suddenly awful. It would be more accurate to say that there is a steady increase in suckitude as your Body increases past 6 and you are giving up more and more defense for the unique enhancements. At, say, Body 9, you really are giving up a hefty chunk of armor to be using expensive, distinctive, unconcealable and illegal armor with some nifty side benefits, but at 6 you're giving up less. It really is a lot less good for a Body 6 character than a Body 3 character, though.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: UmaroVI on <04-23-13/0853:03>
Did All4BigGuns post and then delete his post? I'm seeing a reply but not what was replied to.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <04-23-13/0921:56>
Someone with 3 Body can't wear Milspec.  3 x 3 is only 9.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-23-13/0926:21>
Without helmet we're talking sacrificing 8 out of 20 capacity on compensation to nullify the penalties.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Mirikon on <04-23-13/1019:33>
Someone with 3 Body can't wear Milspec.  3 x 3 is only 9.
Mobility Upgrade can negate the penalties.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Tsuzua on <04-23-13/1200:23>
The vast majority of military armor specific modifications can be more discretely done by cyberware* or bioware for roughly the same price. The only ones that are unique are meant to mitigate the drawbacks of military armor like not being able to swim or reducing its encumbrance penalty. Then coupled with the fact you're broadcasting to everyone that you're so ready for a fight you went out and bought a 20,000+Y suit of armor that doesn't even bother to look like normal clothing means its uses are limited.

Armor capacity doesn't mean as much in a world of gecko tape and backpacks, and the fact that if you armor stack, you have tons and tons of armor modification limits to use. The immunity to injection attacks is cool, but not especially noteworthy since most injection attacks will have a bite attached or they're using DMSO instead.

All-in-all, military armor has a niche for high threat low subtlety** situations for well-supplied people with low to mid range body scores who have time to prepare. As SR goes, that's a perfectly fine niche and a lot more other things get. It's just military armor isn't some sort of be-all-end-all pink mohawk armor***. That said, if you houserule that military armor can stack with other worn armor, it then does become the be-all-end-all pink mohawk armor.

*- I know I'm part of the "don't buy cybereyes, buy goggles" crowd. In that case, goggles or glasses are perfectly normal equipment that you might see a guy on the street use. Likewise, a gyromount in an cyberarm has the good sense to hide itself until you use it. You also get armor and/or attribute boosts with that arm that apply when you go see someone at a seedy bar.

**- This is subtlety in the sense you don't expect to be walking down a street like a regular pedestrian without a fight. You can sneak around just fine in military armor.

***- What is depends on what books you're using. It's likely SWAT armor or the Steampunk suit with armor weaves.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: GiraffeShaman on <04-25-13/2200:47>
Citymasters and riot response vehicles are a pretty typical response, although not first wave. And they are pretty scary to face as a runner. A Citymaster wiped out an entire very skilled shadowrunner team in their rigger enhanced heavily armored van in one of the SR novels. Citymasters are the dragons of SR that you may actually have to face if you are too loud or too slow. As opposed to the real dragons that typical runners never see or meet.

Recon drones following you is a big worry too.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Angelone on <04-25-13/2206:03>
Fade to Black, what sent them down that path was their leaders moral code. Really showed how dark the Shadowrun world is.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Mirikon on <04-25-13/2226:30>
Yep, turns out that having a moral code gets all but two of your team killed, and those two get to become vampires.

As far as a Citymaster goes, it is usually better to try and disable them some other way than by shooting the vehicle. I think my favorite way that I've taken out a chase vehicle before was having my three drones (two Steel Lynxes with LMGs and one Doberman with a Barrett and gecko tips) turn on the vehicle. The two Lynxes did a narrow full burst aimed at the driver's window, followed by the Doberman sending two rounds from the Barrett aimed at the driver. Of course, since all the drones were chameleon coated, that was the first the pursuers saw of them.

Right behind that is the time I took out seven or eight go-gangers at once with a well placed Ice Slick spell.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: All4BigGuns on <04-25-13/2230:56>
Back on to the topic of Military Armor, generally if one of your players is taking this, it will mean one of two things.

1: It is a hint as to what type of game he would enjoy the most for that campaign. (In which case it is the GM's job to accommodate that, not to try to "Pavlov" him into another type.)
2: It is a hint that he feels that he needs that level of armor in order to survive that GM's games.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Mirikon on <04-25-13/2301:50>
I find that players who take milspec armor without a good IC reason for it tend to do it because they just came from another system like D&D where kicking in a door and killing everything that twitches wrong is an acceptable, even expected, thing. They tend to not understand the idea of 'subtlety'.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: All4BigGuns on <04-25-13/2307:22>
I find that players who take milspec armor without a good IC reason for it tend to do it because they just came from another system like D&D where kicking in a door and killing everything that twitches wrong is an acceptable, even expected, thing. They tend to not understand the idea of 'subtlety'.

It's a third possibility, yeah, but the two I listed in the previous post are probably more likely.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: GiraffeShaman on <04-25-13/2323:10>
Quote
Yep, turns out that having a moral code gets all but two of your team killed, and those two get to become vampires.
Ah, but Bandit the shaman survived and wasn't vampirized. Wiley thief shaman for the win.

Yeah, I love the ice sheet spells for car chases.

Many players just like all sorts of cool gear, and this is just one of them that pops up a lot. I don't think it's necessarly munchkin motivated. Allowing some of this gear to be used in specific circumstances can really amp up the excitement level of a game, if done carefuly. Purposefly creating things like Barrens runs for the armor guy is a good idea. Letting him wear it everywhere is a bad idea.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: CanRay on <04-25-13/2344:10>
Hell, Bandit survived TIKI!
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: RHat on <04-26-13/0118:21>
1: It is a hint as to what type of game he would enjoy the most for that campaign. (In which case it is the GM's job to accommodate that, not to try to "Pavlov" him into another type.)

The caveat, of course, is that there has to be a balance between what everyone at the table is after.  If it would be wildly inappropriate for the sort of game everyone else wants, then things get complicated.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: All4BigGuns on <04-26-13/0120:29>
1: It is a hint as to what type of game he would enjoy the most for that campaign. (In which case it is the GM's job to accommodate that, not to try to "Pavlov" him into another type.)

The caveat, of course, is that there has to be a balance between what everyone at the table is after.  If it would be wildly inappropriate for the sort of game everyone else wants, then things get complicated.

If the rest want more subtle than nudge him into getting chameleon modification on that armor. If nothing else, tell him that with it he can do what the Predators from the movies do (basically).

In essence, find a way to make it work rather than just banning the armor.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: RHat on <04-26-13/0126:55>
Getting the modification won't actually deal with the core issues there - and -4 to perception isn't going to do it regardless.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: All4BigGuns on <04-26-13/0129:09>
Getting the modification won't actually deal with the core issues there - and -4 to perception isn't going to do it regardless.

As long as one's Body is high enough that the armor doesn't encumber them, Military Armor applies no penalties to sneaking around (unlike in D&D). So with the chameleon modification and a decent Infiltration skill, they can be just as stealthy as the next guy.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: RHat on <04-26-13/0304:52>
Sure, if they're sneaking 24/7.  But that's rather unlikely - plus, the bulk of the military armour would have modifiers working against them.
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: Elektrycerze3 on <04-26-13/0532:32>
1: It is a hint as to what type of game he would enjoy the most for that campaign. (In which case it is the GM's job to accommodate that, not to try to "Pavlov" him into another type.)

GM's job? Don't know about you, but the moment GMing becomes a job1, where I have to cater to someone instead of trying to relax and enjoy the game on par with other players, I bail from the table. We collaborate to tell interesting and entertaining stories together, and as players don't expect any other player to change his preferences at the table neither they should expect me to to change just because of one single player.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no elitist type - all playstyles are created equall. It's just that if you (as a GM) enjoy, say, Wild West style and plan a western style game, then inform your prospective players what you expect. If some player dislikes the idea or worse - tries to ruleslawyer something when the game has started - you have no obligation to change the flow and mood and style of the game just to accomodate something mood-breaking, like military armor.

Respectively, when you come to a table as a player, remember: when in Rome do as the Romans do.

If your styles clash neither should change - just find a group with similar tastes and game in unison.

1Well, unless they pay handsomely. If they do that's a nice job to have  :)
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: JoeNapalm on <04-26-13/1033:13>
I'll second that, Elektrycerze3.

It's not Pavlovian to introduce players to styles of play that are outside of their norm, or even their comfort zone. Sure, it can be done wrong...railroading is generally a pretty bad idea...but any aspect of GMing will fail if executed poorly.

While part of the role of the GM is to make sure everyone is having a good time, that doesn't necessarily mean that if you're running a Black Trenchcoat game, you need to dye your Mohawk Pink because someone at your table wants to bust heads. Nor does "having fun" fall squarely on the GMs shoulders - Roleplaying is collaborative, the players shouldn't simply be sitting down at the table and looking at the GM, waiting to be entertained.

A GM and the players should be discussing the game and the PCs before,  during, and after CharGen. The GM should know what the players expect, and the players should be aware of what kind of table they're sitting at.

If the GM lays out his requirements for CharGen and a player ignores them, they do so at their own peril. If I gave a player 500BP and said we're running a team of seasoned veterans, I wouldn't alter the game simply because they chose to bring a street rat with no stats higher than 3 to the table, and likewise, in a Street-level campaign, I wouldn't pull at 180 if a player shows up with a retired DEVGRU Operator character sheet.

Heck, in our current game, I am a player, and I made a high Notoriety character, just for kicks. The GM raised an eyebrow, said "You do realize what you're getting yourself into, right? The Heat will be breathing down your neck, with hot, stinky breath" then let me run with it.

If...okay...when that PC gets into a jam because he's notorious, is it the fault of the GM for not running the game right?

As the kids like to say: "Aw Hells naw!"


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Military armor
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <04-27-13/0141:15>
A4BG is ... not incorrect, but his style of play (and running) is radically different.

Military armor is distinctive.  Military armor is a blatant threat.  Military armor, once spotted, cannot be mistaken for anything but military armor.  The corporations don't want to throw popcorn at you for you to eat, and wars of attrition occur only if you have idiots for generals.  What you have at this point is a Tucker's Kobolds event - where the 'low end' security guards are going to use every environmental event they can in order to contain, re/misdirect, and/or negate your personal advantages.  You can't shoot them if you can't see them; even if they can't personally hurt you, a wall (or forklift) falling on you is going to cause you issues.

Corp guards are as stupid - and smart - as the usual person, and the usual person is going to NOT try to shoot Iron Man with a taser.  He'll call for backup, and he'll get information.  Pictures, and lots of them.  While you're inside, they'll poke their noses outside to try and identify where your ride is.  If you were foolish enough to leave it unoccupied, they'll do Bad Things to it, and either eliminate it now, or wait for you to get back to it before blowing you up with it.  Or if you left it occupied, well - expending some drones in order to stop you might be within their budget permissions ... and there aren't a lot of vehicles that handle high-speed crashes well.