[JustADude]

So, I'm kicking around some stuff in my head for a home-brew tabletop system, and I just realized that pretty much no system actually accurately portrays how weapons inflict injury; even those that have different damage types for weapons don't really break it down enough, and they never take into account that weapons can do more than one thing at a time.

Here's a few examples of what I've come up with so far:

Striking
(Most weapons will do some combination of these four)
Slicing: Running an edged and/or serrated edge along the target.
Chopping: Percussive impact with an edged surface.
Piercing: Linear penetration by a pointed object.
Impact: High-velocity blunt collision.

Pressure
Abrasion: Scraping due to friction.
Crushing: Sustained compression.
Tearing: Torsional stress.

Chemical
Caustic: Acidic/Basic/Enzymatic chemical deterioration. Includes necrotic poisons.
Toxic: Other chemical reactions deleterious to continued well-being. Includes neurotoxic poisons.

Other
Exothermic: High temperatures and burning.
Endothermic: Low temperatures and freezing.
Suffocation: Any means of depriving the body of oxygen.
Electrical: Rather obvious, here.

Examples
(Values have been made up on the spot to demonstrate the idea and don't represent anything at this point.)

WEAPONS
Katana
Slicing: Very High
Chopping: Low
Piercing: Moderate
Impact: Very Low

Rapier
Slicing: Moderate
Chopping: Very Low
Piercing: Very High
Impact: Very Low

Broadsword
Slicing: Low
Chopping: High
Piercing: Moderate
Impact: High

Flanged Mace / Spiked Mace
Piercing: None / High
Impact: Very High / High

Fist
Impact: Low

Arrow
Piercing: High
Impact: Very Low


ARMOR
Chainmail
Slicing: Very High
Chopping: Moderate
Piercing: Very Low

Plate Armor
Slicing: Very, Very High
Chopping: High
Piercing: Very High
Impact: Moderate
Tearing: Very High
Crushing: Moderate

Brigandine
Slicing: Very High
Chopping: Low
Piercing: Moderate
Impact: Moderate
Tearing: Low

[All4BigGuns]

There's a reason systems don't go into that much detail. The damage systems are meant to be abstractions giving a general idea of how injured the character is, and that is all that is really needed. Anything beyond that is up to descriptions--by the GM generally, though in some groups the players can be trusted enough to describe their own wounds and hits.

[JustADude]

There's a reason systems don't go into that much detail. The damage systems are meant to be abstractions giving a general idea of how injured the character is, and that is all that is really needed. Anything beyond that is up to descriptions--by the GM generally, though in some groups the players can be trusted enough to describe their own wounds and hits.

Do you see any metallurgical physics or PSI measurements up there? No? Didn't think so. This is still an abstraction, just a more granular one.

With most systems "Monster = Immune to Cutting" means "Monster = Immune to Swords". In reality "Monster = Immune to Cutting" means "Monster = Bludgeoned to death by a 4-pound steel bar that just happens to have a sharp edge." That's something that's always irked me, so I'm trying to create something that give more depth and dimension to equipment choices, rather than just grabbing the highest rating you can afford.

[PeterSmith]

Rolemaster had a pretty high level of detail.

Rolemaster was also a slow, bogged down system.

Take from that whatever you will.

[JustADude]

Rolemaster had a pretty high level of detail.

Rolemaster was also a slow, bogged down system.

Take from that whatever you will.

Just means you need computer assistance  . Heck, I'd consider it a pain in the ass to keep track of everything for SHADOWRUN without something like Chummer to help.

[All4BigGuns]

There's a reason systems don't go into that much detail. The damage systems are meant to be abstractions giving a general idea of how injured the character is, and that is all that is really needed. Anything beyond that is up to descriptions--by the GM generally, though in some groups the players can be trusted enough to describe their own wounds and hits.

Do you see any metallurgical physics or PSI measurements up there? No? Didn't think so. This is still an abstraction, just a more granular one.

With most systems "Monster = Immune to Cutting" means "Monster = Immune to Swords". In reality "Monster = Immune to Cutting" means "Monster = Bludgeoned to death by a 4-pound steel bar that just happens to have a sharp edge." That's something that's always irked me, so I'm trying to create something that give more depth and dimension to equipment choices, rather than just grabbing the highest rating you can afford.

And I'm just trying to say it's not really necessary. *shrugs* If you want to spend a lot of time on something like that, more power to ya, but I'd probably bow out of the game if I saw something like that either modded in or there at a base.

[JustADude]

And I'm just trying to say it's not really necessary. *shrugs* If you want to spend a lot of time on something like that, more power to ya, but I'd probably bow out of the game if I saw something like that either modded in or there at a base.

I honestly don't see how that would be any different then carrying around a Warhawk with APDS, a Sakura Fubuchi loaded with SnS, and a Battle Rifle loaded with Ex Ex, which I've seen many Runners do.... other than having it all in one place on the gear listing, that is.

You pick what you think is the most optimal form of attack to use against the opponent, then use that as damage against his armor's defense in that category. After all, you obviously aren't going to be stabbing with a sword at the same time you're chopping with it.

[Crash_00]

Its incredibly different because of the increased number of options. The proposed system, all weapons have up to around five different damage factors, while armors have the same amount. It's not like loading a weapon with different ammo (which is several ways to modify one damage factor, not the same thing by any means). In SR you shoot someone, you count net hits, add them and any ammo modifiers to your DV/AP. Compare it against armor and move on.

Using the proposed system, you smack someone with a sword (we'll say the Katana proposed). Now you have to compare each of the four factors to the armors factors, compute the differences, determine exactly what those differences mean (ie, well it blocked the slicing but the piercing got through) most likely on a chart, and then move along. Aftermath had a system like this. Aftermath died. Their is a niche for it, but most players don't want to spend an hour on one action.

Game Design has many challenges, but the main one is making the game fun. For most players the game needs to be complex enough to provide a challenge while being fast enough to provide a good flow. A system like this provides the challenge (although to much for most gamers, because gamers don't want the game to feel like Math class usually), but not the flow.

As for computer "aided" gaming. There is a difference between being able to use a computer to assist your gaming, and "requiring" a computer to assist your gaming. Personally, I'm not a big fan of either except for in very specific roles (map displays on large monitors, with a tool like MapTool being the main one). If you're going to make a game that requires a computer, its already to the point where you might as well make a video game.

Remember, RPGs are now suffering from the same fate that books have been coming up against for years. Media is at everyone's fingertips bombarding them. A good book these days has to start with a bang to grab a readers attention from the wall of noise. RPGs need to be fast enough to keep a user's attention or they will get distracted.

[PeterSmith]

Just means you need computer assistance.

For CharGen, I have no problem with an application. If for nothing else than to give me a sheet I can read. But for gameplay? No, I should be able to do that with a sheet, a pack of dice, and a pencil.

[JustADude]

*SNIP*

Using the proposed system, you smack someone with a sword (we'll say the Katana proposed). Now you have to compare each of the four factors to the armors factors, compute the differences, determine exactly what those differences mean (ie, well it blocked the slicing but the piercing got through) most likely on a chart, and then move along. Aftermath had a system like this. Aftermath died. Their is a niche for it, but most players don't want to spend an hour on one action.

*SNIP*

As for computer "aided" gaming. There is a difference between being able to use a computer to assist your gaming, and "requiring" a computer to assist your gaming. Personally, I'm not a big fan of either except for in very specific roles (map displays on large monitors, with a tool like MapTool being the main one). If you're going to make a game that requires a computer, its already to the point where you might as well make a video game.

*SNIP*

As for the first point; that's not entirely accurate. You pick a single damage type to use from the ratings available to the weapon (except for certain special exceptions like the Spiked Mace), and then compare it against the armor's matching defensive rating. This represents the fact that you have options on how to use your weapon.

To use the example you gave, you'd look at your opponent and go "I'm going to slash at him, because that's what a Katana does best!" and declare a Slicing attack. Then you compare the Katana's Slicing Damage rating against the defense on the opponent's Chainmail and go "Crap, his Chainmail stopped it, time to duck!" Next swing, after fending off the counter-attack, you go "Whew, that was close! Okay then, slicing didn't work, but I bet those little rings will pop right apart if I stab him!" and declare you're making a Piercing attack. Compare to Chainmail and go "Hah! Gotcha!" then move on to whatever actual damage calculation would be involved.

Called shots, special techniques, and other such goodies can, of course, be thrown in to change things up, but that's beyond the purview of this current topic.

1) Pick one of the weapon's Damage Types
2) Apply any applicable modifiers
3) Make the attack (and evasion) rolls
4) If the attack hits, compare the appropriate Damage Rating to the armor's matching Defense Rating
5) If the weapon beats the Defense Rating, calculate damage

As for your other point, I was simply talking about Rolemaster, which has been already noted as obscenely complex.

[KarmaInferno]

I am having flashbacks to old D&D slashing/piercing/blunt 'damage type' rules.

Horrible, horrible flashbacks.




-k

[CanRay]

My AD&D GM rolls 20s.  And uses the Critical Hit tables.  Don't come whining to me.

[MisterJohnson]

I use a hit-location chart in my campaign and the players compare that hit location to where they may have armor.  It takes a few extra moments, sure, but nothing I have found to be daunting.

[CanRay]

I use a hit-location chart in my campaign and the players compare that hit location to where they may have armor.  It take a few extra moments, but nothing I have found to be daunting.

I have a Hit Location D6 that I got from GenCon years ago.  I love it. 

[JustADude]

You know, looking back on this I still have to wonder at all the hate people have for the idea of the different damage types... I mean, seriously, SR4 is based on Ballistic and Impact, yeah, but that's further modified with Physical or Stun for four possible damage permutations, and then there's Elemental damage types like Radiation, Fire, Water, Sound, Smoke, Sand, Metal, Light, Ice, Blast, and Acid, all of which have their own quirks and requirements for damage calculation.

We have a situation where people are just fine with SR4 having something like 15 damage types because they're spread out over a few different books and most of them are treated as "Special Exceptions" with all sorts of little tweaks to the base types, but they go "But it's too complicated!" at my suggestion, which has fewer damage types, because I list them in one place and actually treat them as separate entities.

Also, how is a sword being able to be used to attack four separate ways any different than having all sorts of special Ammo types to choose from to modify the weapon's damage?

And, in case it matters, this was planned for a low-fantasy, low-tech universe that won't have all sorts of magic and spirits and guns and cyberware, and the combat was supposed be something a little more tactical than "I roll to hit" "Miss. Roll to dodge." "Dodged. I roll to hit." until someone falls over.