[Rosa]

Anybody from Scandinavia or with knowledge there of must have gone. .....Errrrr What! when they saw that map in Almanac. That Iceland and Svalbard are now suddenly part of TPA makes absolutely zero sense.

1) The NAN is not imperialistic. Their struggle was all about reclaiming their Ancestral lands and they didn't even reclaim all of it. Iceland and Svalbard are not and have never been ancestral lands of any NAN tribe. You can make a strong case for Greenland and that makes sense, but you could actually argue against Greenland joining the NAN, since they would probably rather be independent, than just change national affiliation.

2) Iceland is not just a part of some other nation it's a sovereign nation,  one with centuries old strong ties politically,  economically and cultural and linguistic to Scandinavia and the rest of Europe. Svalbard is a part of Norway and just annexing it for no reason whatsoever would be a declaration of war. Norway is a part of NATO,  so a declaration of war against Norway by annexing its territory would have dragged NATO into a conflict that was otherwise an internal American issue,  I don't see the NAN doing something as dumb as that and even if NATO couldn't or wouldn't the Scandinavian countries certainly would have seen it as an imperialist warmongering move.

Whoever decided to have TPA include those two territories must just have looked at a map drawn a random circle around the world's northern territories and thought "Yeah....Arctic indians. .....Coooool".

In short it just does not make sense from any point of view.

But if you do decide that that's the way it is in your version of the game world,  I would introduce a strong Icelandic resistance against their NAN overlords.

Also the GGD doesn't hold the threat it used to in my opinion,  what made it so effective was the newness and the lack of understanding as what they actually could do if they wanted. 70 years into the awakening that advantage is much much less and almost every nation have integrated magic into its military capabilities and the scandinavian union with its strong magical traditions are no slouches in that department I would say.

[Freya]

A foreign power, especially a foreign European power, trying to reclaim Iceland and Greenland is going to attract a response from the rest of the NAN – whether TPA wants it or not – and that means a fight with a pretty good combined-arms infantry in the Sioux (plus Wildcats special forces) and one of the biggest and most advanced air forces in the world (PCC). PCC is also wealthy enough to buy the best mercenaries money can buy. More importantly, though, is that the TPA has held onto those islands for as long as it has because the NAN might be willing to use Great Ghost Dance magic against the Scandinavians or anyone else who tries to attack them.

There's also the matter of outside agitators besides the Scandinavians's and TPA's respective NEEC and NAN allies. Quebec and the UCAS would both take interest in how far the NAN can be pushed, and if it can be, then why shouldn't they do the pushing. More importantly with regards to the UCAS is that it has been increasing the size of its military and has, relatively speaking, more proven experience and success than most nations's militaries in confronting threats like strange magic. It's used this to leverage itself into becoming the biggest player in the UN Armed Forces, in which case this would be an excellent excuse for the UCAS and the megacorps to insert themselves via peacekeeping operation into the conflict and to occupy Iceland themselves.

TPA would fall in less than a week. The invasion is meant to be sudden and surprising since Scandinavians haven't been particularly war aggressive since the napoleonic era in real life and this seems to have continued in shadowrun. So I imagine that the vast majority would've thought they'd never actually do it.

As for the 3G spell, scandinavia isn't volcanic. Only Iceland has volcanoes of the north germanic countries. Not that it matters since that would be taken into account and dealt with if they tried it with the appropriate responses.

Iceland would fall first and will accept the scandinavian forces with open arms(for historical, cultural and so forth reasons). No external force would be able to react quickly enough to step into Iceland first due to geographical reasons. Mind you while going over what little sources I could find on the regions in shadowrun, I imagine it as a sort of small steps ala similar circumstances in real life. Small pushes until something breaks and the conflict grows into something bigger.

I can imagine the Union having courted UCAS, Quebec and other relevant nations ahead of time with promises that if so and so reacts to the situation they get XYZ in return for ABC.

That is basically the issue, if TPA begins losing territory on that scale there really isn't a good reason for the NAN not get involved, and every reason for them to expand the conflict. Now their ability to project power could be sharply curtailed depending on UCAS Response. But i don't really see that as stunningly likely. 

Thus I think the safer option is to spin the story line strictly in corp terms, it scales the down the conflict increase Shadow runners ability to effect the out come, and opens up the AI thing being meaningful in the smaller scale.

NAN getting involved would be interesting.

Agreed. Limited scale conflicts are best. Once you move into the kinds of things that get entire nations to move, you've moved past Shadowrunner level, and more into WH40K level.

The scale of 40k is a wee bit beyond that to put it mildly. I did imagine it as limited scale conflicts in the beginning though. With how it ends up later depending on what happens in the campaign itself since I tend to go for something moving along organically when I can in these cases.

Anybody from Scandinavia or with knowledge there of must have gone. .....Errrrr What! when they saw that map in Almanac. That Iceland and Svalbard are now suddenly part of TPA makes absolutely zero sense.

1) The NAN is not imperialistic. Their struggle was all about reclaiming their Ancestral lands and they didn't even reclaim all of it. Iceland and Svalbard are not and have never been ancestral lands of any NAN tribe. You can make a strong case for Greenland and that makes sense, but you could actually argue against Greenland joining the NAN, since they would probably rather be independent, than just change national affiliation.

2) Iceland is not just a part of some other nation it's a sovereign nation,  one with centuries old strong ties politically,  economically and cultural and linguistic to Scandinavia and the rest of Europe. Svalbard is a part of Norway and just annexing it for no reason whatsoever would be a declaration of war. Norway is a part of NATO,  so a declaration of war against Norway by annexing its territory would have dragged NATO into a conflict that was otherwise an internal American issue,  I don't see the NAN doing something as dumb as that and even if NATO couldn't or wouldn't the Scandinavian countries certainly would have seen it as an imperialist warmongering move.

Whoever decided to have TPA include those two territories must just have looked at a map drawn a random circle around the world's northern territories and thought "Yeah....Arctic indians. .....Coooool".

In short it just does not make sense from any point of view.

But if you do decide that that's the way it is in your version of the game world,  I would introduce a strong Icelandic resistance against their NAN overlords.

Also the GGD doesn't hold the threat it used to in my opinion,  what made it so effective was the newness and the lack of understanding as what they actually could do if they wanted. 70 years into the awakening that advantage is much much less and almost every nation have integrated magic into its military capabilities and the scandinavian union with its strong magical traditions are no slouches in that department I would say.

Speaking as a norwegian, when I saw the world map... I can sum up my reaction as "how stoned off their behinds where the authors when they made this?".

In regards to 1. From what I know, the norse were the first to settle southern greenland while the inuits settled northern greenland first. At one point the norse settlements were wiped out for reasons unknown(I've not kept up with research on it so I don't know if they found the cause) until we resettled greenland. It was always considered part of the norwegian crown however until 1814 to my knowledge. So for Iceland, I can imagine the political situation, for the sake of the metaplot at the very least, having gotten to the point where they are openly advocating joining the Union and thus welcome the scandinavian troops when they enter the country and the scandinavian navy occupy the icelandic waters to protect their cultural siblings.

And yeah the Svalbard thing never made sense. Taking that -would- be a war declaration which Norway -would- respond to. So there would be a great deal of resentment and hate aimed towards TPA and NAN if they actually did that.

Honestly I don't see how the GGD was a threat even in the beginning unless it somehow made them immune to bombs, bullets and missiles. Setting off three volcanoes isn't exactly much of a threat to a nation the size of USA. Of course I might be missing some fluff that explains how it actually works since none of the sourcebooks I have(and I don't have many) had any details on it that I could find. So I only had the wiki to work off of. Not that it matters since yeah with several decades of magic under peoples belt, there would be counters and other things.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

History of Greenland: Current Archaeological theories explain that Norse colonization of Greenland took place during a relatively brief period of abnormally warm climate.  During that time southern Greenland was.. well.. actually green!  Climate "normalizes" and bam, economies based on pastoralism and farming can no longer work there.  The colonies subsequently atrophy and die.

Shadowrun History of Iceland/Svalbard: It is probably important to remember that the fictional Native American Nations as presented by the Shadowrun timeline were invented quite some time ago.  In the case of the TPA, its history is first discussed in the 1st edition sourcebook Native American Nations Volume II.   For come context: this is a book written before the fall of the Soviet Union.  The section on the history of the TPA is about 1 page in total.  The post-awakening section on history is half a page.
 The post-independence section is 2 paragraphs.  (I'd quote it in total here but I think I'd get in mod trouble if I did)  It's not much but I think it still stands as the definitive body on the subject.  Unfortunately, the history is written from the context of a North American perspective.  Greenland is mentioned, swathes of Siberia is mentioned, but Iceland and Svalbard are not.  You wouldn't even get the idea those are part of the TPA if it weren't explicitly so on the map.

TPA Military: It doesn't exist.  There's a national Peace Force that primarily serves as police.  They're armed with machine pistols and they're 500 strong.  They are the closest thing to an army the TPA has.  Of those 500 troopers, they're concentrated in Inuvik (national capital), Reykjavik, Godth (probably Godthab/Nuuk, the RL capital of Greenland), and Nordvik.  Those are the 4 urban centers in the whole of the TPA, and the rest of the territory is now comprised of tiny subsistence villages.  There's even a mention in the book about the sheer folly of trying to go to war upon the TPA:

>>>>>(To echo Toby, "no surprise here". Military action against a nation must be targeted against a government, a central administration, or organized armed forces.  The T-PA had none of these. What the hell were the armed forces of the U.S. and Canada (and later the UCAS) or the Soviet Union to do? Blow the drek out of several hundred fishing villages? Eradicate a couple of thousands of migratory bands of seal hunters?  It's kind of like attacking a rainstorm by targeting individual raindrops.)<<<<<
-Randall (18:55:02/4-10-52)

Speculation about Iceland/Svalbard: I'm guessing there must have been some some sorts of local referenda in Iceland and Svalbard to willingly join the TPA.  There's just A) no way they could have forcibly absorbed them and B) no inclination they'd want to.  The TPA is among, if not THE, most anti-"anglo" Native American Nations.  The SB make a point of how hard it is for anglos to even get a tourist visa to visit temporarily.  Still, there's no discussion about Iceland and Svalbard being subject to the same ethnic cleansing of anglos as the extreme northern parts of the NA continent.  Doesn't mean it didn't happen... I'm just having a hell of a hard time seeing both how and why it would have.   Now that being said, the Sixth World history is much more detailed in North America than for the rest of the world.  There was a Ghost Dance analogue in Siberia to convince Russia to allow most of that area to break away, but to this date I don't think we know the full details of what exactly occured.  Even though we do know the TPA is one of the beneficiaries of that land swap.  There well could have been another Ghost Dance analogue to convince the national government of Iceland to submit, or perhaps there didn't need to be one: perhaps the Ghost Dance was enough for a volcanic island to just go "no need for a demonstration, we're leaving already.  Please don't get mad before we go...".

TPA's relationship with the rest of the NAN: Mixed.  On one hand, international relations in general are apathetic.  The TPA has little to no sense of national identity outside of Inuvik, and even there the national government just doesn't get involved in international affairs.  On the other, the relations with certain Native American Nations are good.  Specifically the Sioux Nation and the Athabaskan Council.  On the third hand, relations are poor with the AMC over settlement and territorial disputes. 

TPA's relations with the rest of the world: They don't have any.  They have no diplomatic contact whatsoever with non-North American nations.  As for what the rest of the world thinks of the TPA:

>>>>(What about the European States?  And the SovUnion?)<<<<<
-Rackley (16:21:56/7-21-52)

>>>>>(Those countries don't consider the Inuit and Aleut worth the powder to blow them all to hell.  Both the European States and the Soviet (dis)Union consider many other issues more important than playing diplomacy games with what they (wrongly) believe to be a bunch of ignorant Eskimos.)<<<<<
-Mace (01:00:16/7-29-52)

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Some thoughts about casus belli for a SU-TPA war:

First of all, it'd assuredly have to be a war instigated by the SU.  I can't think of a plausible reason for the TPA to start a war, and if you've already got the SU taking on Tir na nOg, it sounds like we have our aggressor already identified

Perhaps southern Greenland is starting to green again, between the rampant global warming and rise of magical energy.  That could be a pretext for claiming the Norse colonies there never expired but have been "temporarily vacant" and are ready for resettlement by Europeans.  That'd certainly set a precedent that'd bring friendly NAN nations to the TPA's side to bulwark their pitifully overmatched Peace Force.

Since we don't know the terms of the TPA's sovereignty over Iceland and Svalbard, you could make the terms deliberately ambiguous or dubious so as to give a casus bellum.  Maybe the TPA bought one or both islands and was supposed to pay an annual reparation in perpetuity, only the TPA has since decided that since Norway has become part of the SU it no longer is obliged by treaty to pay since it was never the deal to pay the "Scandinavian Union".  Or perhaps there was a treaty to pay for X number of years, and once the treaty expired, the SU couldn't get the TPA to agree to a new one with similar terms.  Or perhaps some secrets have come to light about a supposedly clean referendum and the SU says it can prove the vote was rigged and the island(s) were stolen illegally.

Of course, that's before factoring in megacorporations.  Corporation A has an understanding with the TPA and enjoys mineral rights all across the arctic.  Corporation B wants them instead, and does a CBA and discovers it thinks it'll be cheaper to get the SU to start and then back a nationalistic war than buying the rights from A in the first place.  And of course A will see right through and back the TPA to protect its own profits.

[Freya]

I should probably point out that due to the way the Svalbard situation works, no amount of referenda would be possible to hold there. Just being allowed to stay in that region is strictly regulated for practical reasons(which is basically no job, no stay). So military action is pretty much the only way to take it that I can think of.

History of Greenland: Current Archaeological theories explain that Norse colonization of Greenland took place during a relatively brief period of abnormally warm climate.  During that time southern Greenland was.. well.. actually green!  Climate "normalizes" and bam, economies based on pastoralism and farming can no longer work there.  The colonies subsequently atrophy and die.

Starvation and sickness killing the people there wouldn't surprise me. It was norwegian sovereign territory, but travelling there in that era wasn't the most practical.

Shadowrun History of Iceland/Svalbard: It is probably important to remember that the fictional Native American Nations as presented by the Shadowrun timeline were invented quite some time ago.  In the case of the TPA, its history is first discussed in the 1st edition sourcebook Native American Nations Volume II.   For come context: this is a book written before the fall of the Soviet Union.  The section on the history of the TPA is about 1 page in total.  The post-awakening section on history is half a page.
 The post-independence section is 2 paragraphs.  (I'd quote it in total here but I think I'd get in mod trouble if I did)  It's not much but I think it still stands as the definitive body on the subject.  Unfortunately, the history is written from the context of a North American perspective.  Greenland is mentioned, swathes of Siberia is mentioned, but Iceland and Svalbard are not.  You wouldn't even get the idea those are part of the TPA if it weren't explicitly so on the map.

TPA Military: It doesn't exist.  There's a national Peace Force that primarily serves as police.  They're armed with machine pistols and they're 500 strong.  They are the closest thing to an army the TPA has.  Of those 500 troopers, they're concentrated in Inuvik (national capital), Reykjavik, Godth (probably Godthab/Nuuk, the RL capital of Greenland), and Nordvik.  Those are the 4 urban centers in the whole of the TPA, and the rest of the territory is now comprised of tiny subsistence villages.  There's even a mention in the book about the sheer folly of trying to go to war upon the TPA:

>>>>>(To echo Toby, "no surprise here". Military action against a nation must be targeted against a government, a central administration, or organized armed forces.  The T-PA had none of these. What the hell were the armed forces of the U.S. and Canada (and later the UCAS) or the Soviet Union to do? Blow the drek out of several hundred fishing villages? Eradicate a couple of thousands of migratory bands of seal hunters?  It's kind of like attacking a rainstorm by targeting individual raindrops.)<<<<<
-Randall (18:55:02/4-10-52)

Speculation about Iceland/Svalbard: I'm guessing there must have been some some sorts of local referenda in Iceland and Svalbard to willingly join the TPA.  There's just A) no way they could have forcibly absorbed them and B) no inclination they'd want to.  The TPA is among, if not THE, most anti-"anglo" Native American Nations.  The SB make a point of how hard it is for anglos to even get a tourist visa to visit temporarily.  Still, there's no discussion about Iceland and Svalbard being subject to the same ethnic cleansing of anglos as the extreme northern parts of the NA continent.  Doesn't mean it didn't happen... I'm just having a hell of a hard time seeing both how and why it would have.   Now that being said, the Sixth World history is much more detailed in North America than for the rest of the world.  There was a Ghost Dance analogue in Siberia to convince Russia to allow most of that area to break away, but to this date I don't think we know the full details of what exactly occured.  Even though we do know the TPA is one of the beneficiaries of that land swap.  There well could have been another Ghost Dance analogue to convince the national government of Iceland to submit, or perhaps there didn't need to be one: perhaps the Ghost Dance was enough for a volcanic island to just go "no need for a demonstration, we're leaving already.  Please don't get mad before we go...".

TPA's relationship with the rest of the NAN: Mixed.  On one hand, international relations in general are apathetic.  The TPA has little to no sense of national identity outside of Inuvik, and even there the national government just doesn't get involved in international affairs.  On the other, the relations with certain Native American Nations are good.  Specifically the Sioux Nation and the Athabaskan Council.  On the third hand, relations are poor with the AMC over settlement and territorial disputes. 

TPA's relations with the rest of the world: They don't have any.  They have no diplomatic contact whatsoever with non-North American nations.  As for what the rest of the world thinks of the TPA:

>>>>(What about the European States?  And the SovUnion?)<<<<<
-Rackley (16:21:56/7-21-52)

>>>>>(Those countries don't consider the Inuit and Aleut worth the powder to blow them all to hell.  Both the European States and the Soviet (dis)Union consider many other issues more important than playing diplomacy games with what they (wrongly) believe to be a bunch of ignorant Eskimos.)<<<<<
-Mace (01:00:16/7-29-52)

Sounds TPA only exists because of a treaty and after that no one cared. Aside from NAN, it sounds like most nations wouldn't care all that much about it unless they could exploit it. It wouldn't even last a week against a properly organized military action, that much is certain. If they did ethnic cleansing and/or forced relocation, that'd just give an antagonistic SU a very good piece of ammunition to use as basis for anything they do. It does give me some ideas on how things will progress depending on what happens.

Some thoughts about casus belli for a SU-TPA war:

First of all, it'd assuredly have to be a war instigated by the SU.  I can't think of a plausible reason for the TPA to start a war, and if you've already got the SU taking on Tir na nOg, it sounds like we have our aggressor already identified

Perhaps southern Greenland is starting to green again, between the rampant global warming and rise of magical energy.  That could be a pretext for claiming the Norse colonies there never expired but have been "temporarily vacant" and are ready for resettlement by Europeans.  That'd certainly set a precedent that'd bring friendly NAN nations to the TPA's side to bulwark their pitifully overmatched Peace Force.

Since we don't know the terms of the TPA's sovereignty over Iceland and Svalbard, you could make the terms deliberately ambiguous or dubious so as to give a casus bellum.  Maybe the TPA bought one or both islands and was supposed to pay an annual reparation in perpetuity, only the TPA has since decided that since Norway has become part of the SU it no longer is obliged by treaty to pay since it was never the deal to pay the "Scandinavian Union".  Or perhaps there was a treaty to pay for X number of years, and once the treaty expired, the SU couldn't get the TPA to agree to a new one with similar terms.  Or perhaps some secrets have come to light about a supposedly clean referendum and the SU says it can prove the vote was rigged and the island(s) were stolen illegally.

Of course, that's before factoring in megacorporations.  Corporation A has an understanding with the TPA and enjoys mineral rights all across the arctic.  Corporation B wants them instead, and does a CBA and discovers it thinks it'll be cheaper to get the SU to start and then back a nationalistic war than buying the rights from A in the first place.  And of course A will see right through and back the TPA to protect its own profits.

TNN would be hit second if no one comes to the aid of TPA, but yes SU -is- meant to be the aggressor and is basing its actions on claims that could be perceived as legitimate depending on who you asked. NAN for instance wouldn't be able to object against anything relating to Svalbard, Iceland and southern Greenland since the norse colonized the latter two first and Svalbard has been norwegian since shortly after WW1( Look at this link if you're curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Treaty ). They did after all, if I understood other posters correctly, use the same reasoning themselves. I don't see Norway ever selling Svalbard though. Even if all the oil rigs got wrecked by that one disaster, Norway wouldn't be hurting for money and we sit on another resource that is just as valuable if not more so than the oil is. So even in the shadowrun timeline, Norway would've made a lot of money due to the oil deposits and thorium. With the SU, the rest would be backing them up as well I imagine.

Yeah I was thinking that one or more megacorps would likely fan the flames to earn more money in the long run. It seemed like the kinda thing they'd do going by what little I knew of the lore. The issue is mostly figuring out the most fitting ones since I don't know their specialties and spheres of influences all that well.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Some more things to consider:

The TPA has the aforementioned 4 urban areas (in current day Canada, Greenland, Siberia, and Iceland).  Outside of those it's basically wild.  Any governance is done locally at the tribal or even band level.  "Defeating" the TPA militarily is virtually impossible, although finite chunks of land (like Iceland and/or Svalbard) can certainly be occupied.

The TPA does have magic.  I didn't mention it upthread but there's a pseudo-mythological shaman who unified the arctic tribes named Ininook.  He appeared and disappeared mysteriously shortly after the awakening, and is basically the TPA's own Howling Coyote and King Arthur figure rolled into one.  Who (or even WHAT) he is/was is a deliberate mystery left to GMs to explore.  The arctic is also home to some of the most powerful expressions of mana on the planet.  You might say the TPA plussed up its military might since the 2050s or you might not... but surely they're world leaders in pure magical firepower potential.

I'd envision a war being able to blockade and occupy Iceland and/or Svalbard fairly easily, and then becoming a hellish nightmare of asymmetric warfare to hold onto the seized territory as shamans, spirits, and paracritters wage unholy hell upon the invaders.  Megacorporate assets can deliver mercs and Sioux Wildcats through the blockade for additional hardcore insurgency fun.

[Freya]

Some more things to consider:

The TPA has the aforementioned 4 urban areas (in current day Canada, Greenland, Siberia, and Iceland).  Outside of those it's basically wild.  Any governance is done locally at the tribal or even band level.  "Defeating" the TPA militarily is virtually impossible, although finite chunks of land (like Iceland and/or Svalbard) can certainly be occupied.

The TPA does have magic.  I didn't mention it upthread but there's a pseudo-mythological shaman who unified the arctic tribes named Ininook.  He appeared and disappeared mysteriously shortly after the awakening, and is basically the TPA's own Howling Coyote and King Arthur figure rolled into one.  Who (or even WHAT) he is/was is a deliberate mystery left to GMs to explore.  The arctic is also home to some of the most powerful expressions of mana on the planet.  You might say the TPA plussed up its military might since the 2050s or you might not... but surely they're world leaders in pure magical firepower potential.

I'd envision a war being able to blockade and occupy Iceland and/or Svalbard fairly easily, and then becoming a hellish nightmare of asymmetric warfare to hold onto the seized territory as shamans, spirits, and paracritters wage unholy hell upon the invaders.  Megacorporate assets can deliver mercs and Sioux Wildcats through the blockade for additional hardcore insurgency fun.

That just means more fun for the player to pick from in the long run. I'm working on figuring out the assets of the parties concerned. Though TPA would fall fairly quickly, it'd likely be more than capable of doing guerilla warfare of some sorts. So the more I know, the more interesting the picture can become.

[Magnaric]

So there's not much I can say regarding the historical claims to territory(Iceland, Greenland, etc) that people haven't already mentioned. It sounds like you have a really solid basis for a campaign here. Instead, I agree with Stainless Steel Devil Rat in that the initial phase of the war would likely be very successful for the SU, but afterwards it would get bogged down. As such, the main reasons/time to bring in "independent assets" for the Scandinavian Union would be intelligence gathering leading up to the first push, and once things start going sideways.

From a GM perspective, I could see the SU using Shadowrunners to do a fair bit of scouting, reconnaissance, possibly even sabotage or misinformation campaigns to soften up the target areas and ensure the invasion goes as smoothly as possible. The actual war and capturing of territory should probably be best left to the legit military and nations/corps involved, but as you said it'll likely be very successful for the first few weeks, so that will give the Runners some nice downtime, or opportunity to do other jobs. A change of pace is always good.

As was stated above, once the initial territory exchange happens, and things start escalating/getting complicated(NAN and Corps getting involved, magical counterattack from TPA, etc), the Runners could very likely get called back for more work. At this point it could involve a wide range of runs, like the earlier intel-gathering, but also sabotage/espionage, wetwork, heck even political runs to try to affect the various other powers and sway them to one side or another. Really just depends on what the team is capable of and comfortable with.

[Freya]

I imagine it'll get bogged down once it reaches the northern canadian areas of TPA where the SU can't use the navy to blockade enemy attempts at bringing allies and resources into the field or to move about troops as quickly. So continental TPA would likely end up being a warzone.

So yeah plenty of opportunities for shadowrunners that are willing to take risks going from the suggestions so far. Exactly what we end up doing will depend a bit on what the player ends up rolling since they've only decided on the race at the moment.

Another note on GGG. I could actually see the SU counting on TPA trying to make use of it since that means they could enact their own superweapon plans in response and just hand all the blame over to TPA/NAN for escalating things that far. GGG would be a known factor and I imagine they would've prepared something ahead of time in order to protect and exploit any attempted usage of it.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Its been bugging me that I couldn't find a writeup on the Scandinavian Union, and in going through my library I finally found where it's discussed:  the 2004 Shadows of Europe pgs 130-146.

Some select tidbits from that volume on the Sixth World's version of Scandinavia:

The political structure of the Union: Legally, there top of the executive is a 40 member Council of Ministers, with 10 representatives coming from each of the 4 countries of the Union.  For legal matters beneath the Council of Ministers' attention there's the Union Parliament.  The Ministers and Parliament administer the Scandinavian Commission, which is the EU-like body that is the Bureaucracy that runs the Union.  On paper, the Union is supposed to act as a single unified country and internal borders have largely been dissolved, but there's still disparities in wealth and influence (Sweden is the most prosperous and influential in the Union government, while Norway is the poorest and least influential).

Denmark: Described as being squished between the SU and the rest of Europe and the megacorps (SK and Maersk), trying to please everyone.
Finland:  Experienced an upsurge in forest growth since the Awakening and is summed up as "a beautiful country or a thousand lakes, sauna, and primeval forests".
Norway: "Once a prosperous country, Norway has been transformed into a poor, bleak and dreary bureaucratic nightmare and shadow haven".  Oslo is also described as being the hub of Shadow activity in Scandinavia.  Norway has the most poor and SINless and the most megacorporate evil overlording shenanigans.
Sweden: "With the aid of magic and technology, Sweden has gone from being green to being an eco-freak's paradise; a place where pollution is criminal and any infraction is treated like a mortal sin."  Sweden is described as being the most hostile European country to the megacorps, and Stockholm is one of the most technologically advanced sprawls in the world.

The Sami- They've not yet formally agitated for a NAN-like secession, but there are rumblings to do so.

Organized Crime:  Three syndicates vie for the SU pie: The Russian Vory, the Japanese Yakuza, and the domestic syndicate called the Vikings.  The Vikings are primarily smugglers, and smaller time than either of the international syndicates.

Scandinavian Corps:
Tyr, inc (Denmark)  Security consultants, privatized prisons, mercenaries, owns a large corporate extraterritorial trading port in Copenhagen.  Rivals of Maersk.
Erika (Finland) Big influence in the Matrix.  Helped design the wireless matrix of the post-Crash 2.0 world.
Hydrolux (Sweden) Big eco-friendly energy corp (or so their PR goes...)
Saab (Sweden) Manufacturing.  (remember Saab is a big name in SR, especially in the high end luxury and sports cars world.  Saab Dynamit and Gladius, anyone?)
Saeder-Krupp and Maersk: Both megacorps are already given lore in many other SR books.  Between them they'v gobbled up the entire domestic crop of Norwegian corps.  These two are the two biggest corps in Scandinavia (Saab is no 3)

Culture and Religion:
Lutheranism is unsurprisingly dominant across the Union.  In Shadowrun's Sixth World, there's also a neo-Pagan Aesir movement based on the old Norse religion (esp popular with metahumans).  There's also the Sami-inspired "Slida" movement across Scandinavia, where anti-technology back-to-nature types organize into small communities based on subsistence living (fishing, reindeer herding, talismongering, cottage industries, etc).  There's a large degree of influence or friction (or both!) between the Slida, the Sami, and the Vikings.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Some of my own further thoughts on a SU-TPA war:

I don't think occupying territory in Greenland, former Canada, or Siberia is in the cards for the SU or anyone at all for that matter.  Outside of the TPA's four cities, the territory is ungovernable above the level of tribal complexity.  If anyone WERE to try to invade and occupy the wilds of Greenland, Siberia or Canada the locals would just leave and hunt seals somewhere else, and the occupation forces are just sitting on frozen tundra for no reason other than to suffer the attacks by vengeful shamans, spirits, and god only knows what kind of para-critters might come at them off the ice.

As I opined upthread, Iceland and Svalbard could be an exception, but only because they're islands.  The SU can quarantine those landmasses via naval blockade and limit any opposition they face to whatever was caught on island at the onset of the occupation, plus whatever forces can be smuggled in through the blockade.

Most nations of the Sixth world lack the military projection to engage in major invasions. Inuvik, Godth, and Norvik are all just too far from Scandinavia to launch, much less maintain, military occupations.  There'd have to be megacorporate military involvement for anything like that to occur, and that sort of direct overt involvement is something that the megacorps rarely do.  Examples of this happening are very few and far between in the SR lore (Yucatan, Tsimshian... not any others coming to mind).  It's one thing for SK or Maersk to allow their naval forces be used to help "quarantine" Iceland/Svalbard, it's quite another to be overtly involved in helping one country take over another one.

There'd absolutely be a major home-front problem for the SU in the Sami and Slida assuredly being politically against the war.  Domestic insurrection could very well be a possibility.  There'd also likely be divisions inside the SU Council and Parliament on the topic of whether the Union should be prosecuting a war of aggression..  Sweden and Finland would assuredly being against, Norway being for it between nationalistic nostalgia and Corp pressure, Denmark would have to start being pro-war or else it'd never launch.. probably to go along with Norway and megacorps.. but Denmark's continuing political support for the invasion could very well be questionable as time goes on.

[Freya]

Its been bugging me that I couldn't find a writeup on the Scandinavian Union, and in going through my library I finally found where it's discussed:  the 2004 Shadows of Europe pgs 130-146.

Some select tidbits from that volume on the Sixth World's version of Scandinavia:

The political structure of the Union: Legally, there top of the executive is a 40 member Council of Ministers, with 10 representatives coming from each of the 4 countries of the Union.  For legal matters beneath the Council of Ministers' attention there's the Union Parliament.  The Ministers and Parliament administer the Scandinavian Commission, which is the EU-like body that is the Bureaucracy that runs the Union.  On paper, the Union is supposed to act as a single unified country and internal borders have largely been dissolved, but there's still disparities in wealth and influence (Sweden is the most prosperous and influential in the Union government, while Norway is the poorest and least influential).

Interesting structure. I can imagine how this ended up being subverted and softly coup'D by the point the campaign will be at.

Denmark: Described as being squished between the SU and the rest of Europe and the megacorps (SK and Maersk), trying to please everyone.
Finland:  Experienced an upsurge in forest growth since the Awakening and is summed up as "a beautiful country or a thousand lakes, sauna, and primeval forests".

More lumber is always good. I've already decided what ended up happening to Maersk for the sake of the campaign since I was aware of them beforehand.

Norway: "Once a prosperous country, Norway has been transformed into a poor, bleak and dreary bureaucratic nightmare and shadow haven".  Oslo is also described as being the hub of Shadow activity in Scandinavia.  Norway has the most poor and SINless and the most megacorporate evil overlording shenanigans.

Considering the kind of resources Norway sits on, this doesn't make any sense to me. While I could see the oil having run out by the 2070s(or whats left being in areas where its illegal to drill), I don't see the thorium doing so. Not to mention the oil fund itself. So this strikes me as a case of "Did Not Do The Research". Thus I'm pretty much just gonna blatantly retcon this part. Thank you for the information though.

Sweden: "With the aid of magic and technology, Sweden has gone from being green to being an eco-freak's paradise; a place where pollution is criminal and any infraction is treated like a mortal sin."  Sweden is described as being the most hostile European country to the megacorps, and Stockholm is one of the most technologically advanced sprawls in the world.

An interesting tidbit.

The Sami- They've not yet formally agitated for a NAN-like secession, but there are rumblings to do so.

If they tried, they'd fail hard. They don't have the resources or population number to succeed at anything like that. Especially not in the circumstances the SU will be in at the start of this campaign.

Organized Crime:  Three syndicates vie for the SU pie: The Russian Vory, the Japanese Yakuza, and the domestic syndicate called the Vikings.  The Vikings are primarily smugglers, and smaller time than either of the international syndicates.

  Hm this will prove useful for plot stuff once I've figured out a way to make use of it.

Scandinavian Corps:
Tyr, inc (Denmark)  Security consultants, privatized prisons, mercenaries, owns a large corporate extraterritorial trading port in Copenhagen.  Rivals of Maersk.
Erika (Finland) Big influence in the Matrix.  Helped design the wireless matrix of the post-Crash 2.0 world.
Hydrolux (Sweden) Big eco-friendly energy corp (or so their PR goes...)
Saab (Sweden) Manufacturing.  (remember Saab is a big name in SR, especially in the high end luxury and sports cars world.  Saab Dynamit and Gladius, anyone?)
Saeder-Krupp and Maersk: Both megacorps are already given lore in many other SR books.  Between them they'v gobbled up the entire domestic crop of Norwegian corps.  These two are the two biggest corps in Scandinavia (Saab is no 3)

Interesting information. Will help with planning the sequence of events that lead up to the situation the SU will be in at the start of the campaign.

Culture and Religion:
Lutheranism is unsurprisingly dominant across the Union.  In Shadowrun's Sixth World, there's also a neo-Pagan Aesir movement based on the old Norse religion (esp popular with metahumans).  There's also the Sami-inspired "Slida" movement across Scandinavia, where anti-technology back-to-nature types organize into small communities based on subsistence living (fishing, reindeer herding, talismongering, cottage industries, etc).  There's a large degree of influence or friction (or both!) between the Slida, the Sami, and the Vikings.

I saw this mentioned in tidbits on the norse magic tradition that arose post-2010s that the asatru had been spreading a fair bit due to all the things thats been taking place.

Some of my own further thoughts on a SU-TPA war:

I don't think occupying territory in Greenland, former Canada, or Siberia is in the cards for the SU or anyone at all for that matter.  Outside of the TPA's four cities, the territory is ungovernable above the level of tribal complexity.  If anyone WERE to try to invade and occupy the wilds of Greenland, Siberia or Canada the locals would just leave and hunt seals somewhere else, and the occupation forces are just sitting on frozen tundra for no reason other than to suffer the attacks by vengeful shamans, spirits, and god only knows what kind of para-critters might come at them off the ice.

If they run away from Greenland, thats a bonus for the SU. It saves them from dealing with the population. Plus since this is future warfare, the occupation forces don't need to spread across the entirety of greenland. Drone surveillance, war-drones, remote controlled war machines, etc designed to deal with the climate will serve well in patrolling the interior and the coast alongside a naval blockade. I've already given thought to how the shamans and spirits would be dealt with by the SU since I figured thats how TPA would primarily fight back until they can get the rest of NAN to react.

As I opined upthread, Iceland and Svalbard could be an exception, but only because they're islands.  The SU can quarantine those landmasses via naval blockade and limit any opposition they face to whatever was caught on island at the onset of the occupation, plus whatever forces can be smuggled in through the blockade.

Both of those would fall very quickly yes given their circumstances.

Most nations of the Sixth world lack the military projection to engage in major invasions. Inuvik, Godth, and Norvik are all just too far from Scandinavia to launch, much less maintain, military occupations.  There'd have to be megacorporate military involvement for anything like that to occur, and that sort of direct overt involvement is something that the megacorps rarely do.  Examples of this happening are very few and far between in the SR lore (Yucatan, Tsimshian... not any others coming to mind).  It's one thing for SK or Maersk to allow their naval forces be used to help "quarantine" Iceland/Svalbard, it's quite another to be overtly involved in helping one country take over another one.

By the point the campaign happens(we set it in 2078), the SU has been building up militarily for a long time(two to three decades to be precise) and will thus blockade the siberian and canadian areas of TPA as best as they can. Not that they're interested in directly taking anything in siberia or canadas mainland mind you. They are only after Iceland, Svalbard and Greenland(originally just southern Greenland, but given TPA's structure, I imagine diplomatic talks and pressures went nowhere). Though they would be happy if TPA seized to exist since controlling the arctic shelf to such a degree wouldn't be anything to scoff at.

There'd absolutely be a major home-front problem for the SU in the Sami and Slida assuredly being politically against the war.  Domestic insurrection could very well be a possibility.  There'd also likely be divisions inside the SU Council and Parliament on the topic of whether the Union should be prosecuting a war of aggression..  Sweden and Finland would assuredly being against, Norway being for it between nationalistic nostalgia and Corp pressure, Denmark would have to start being pro-war or else it'd never launch.. probably to go along with Norway and megacorps.. but Denmark's continuing political support for the invasion could very well be questionable as time goes on.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the SU's governing bodies have been hit by a soft coup d'etat. On the surface it'd seem like business as usual, but in reality at the point the campaign begins, the SU is essentially run by a dictator and absolute monarch. Meaning that publically the governments would be all in on supporting the war. That isn't to say there wouldn't be rumblings, but given part of the set up is that the SU is suffering from a major nationalistic movement at this point(a scandinavist nationalist movement to be exact), the majority support would be somewhat jingoistic.

As for the sami, they are so outnumbered that they couldn't offer any actual problem outside of terrorism. Politicially speaking they are simply not big enough to offer an obstacle. I could see them being split on the issue though, but they'd have no reason to be positive towards the enemy. Keep in mind that by the point the war breaks out, TPA and NAN has basically been the target of a very extended proganda campaign where they'd be blamed for a lot of ills suffered in the SU by its people. Thus many of them might not be pro-war, but they wouldn't be likely to do anything drastic about it either or support its enemies for the most part.

The starting point would be as the lore has framed things(despite certain things not making sense), but for the sake of the plot and fun, I've diverged the timeline decades before the campaign takes place to set things up to evolve the SU's situation into a point where it is willing and capable of taking back Greenland, Iceland and Svalbard. Whether that happens or not after the campaign starts is anyones guess.

Anyway thanks for all the information you managed to dig up. It'll prove very useful in fleshing out the full scenario that'll set the stage for the campaign. Which will help make it more enjoyable for the participants.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Norway: "Once a prosperous country, Norway has been transformed into a poor, bleak and dreary bureaucratic nightmare and shadow haven".  Oslo is also described as being the hub of Shadow activity in Scandinavia.  Norway has the most poor and SINless and the most megacorporate evil overlording shenanigans.

Considering the kind of resources Norway sits on, this doesn't make any sense to me. While I could see the oil having run out by the 2070s(or whats left being in areas where its illegal to drill), I don't see the thorium doing so. Not to mention the oil fund itself. So this strikes me as a case of "Did Not Do The Research". Thus I'm pretty much just gonna blatantly retcon this part. Thank you for the information though.

Well they did make a point of how the Megacorps snatched up Norway's natural resources.  I think it's less "did not research" and more "evil megacorps victimized Norway".  Besides, Norway is the most "Shadowrun Oriented" country of the SU, making it the most interesting from a protagonists' standpoint

Anyway thanks for all the information you managed to dig up. It'll prove very useful in fleshing out the full scenario that'll set the stage for the campaign. Which will help make it more enjoyable for the participants.

You're very welcome.  It sounds like a neat campaign, I feel kind of invested now and would be curious to hear how it turns out!

[Freya]

Norway: "Once a prosperous country, Norway has been transformed into a poor, bleak and dreary bureaucratic nightmare and shadow haven".  Oslo is also described as being the hub of Shadow activity in Scandinavia.  Norway has the most poor and SINless and the most megacorporate evil overlording shenanigans.

Considering the kind of resources Norway sits on, this doesn't make any sense to me. While I could see the oil having run out by the 2070s(or whats left being in areas where its illegal to drill), I don't see the thorium doing so. Not to mention the oil fund itself. So this strikes me as a case of "Did Not Do The Research". Thus I'm pretty much just gonna blatantly retcon this part. Thank you for the information though.

Well they did make a point of how the Megacorps snatched up Norway's natural resources.  I think it's less "did not research" and more "evil megacorps victimized Norway".  Besides, Norway is the most "Shadowrun Oriented" country of the SU, making it the most interesting from a protagonists' standpoint

That is a fair and good point. It being home and seeing stuff like this is something I'm pretty sick and tired of in fiction despite there being no ill intent of any sort in it. It more or less happened in real life(replace megacorp with Denmark), but cultural bias and all that. Not gonna claim I don't suffer from it since I very much do. Though now that I think of it, it does help me think of a reason for how Norway fell under the sway of the dictator. Hmmmmmmmm.

Anyway thanks for all the information you managed to dig up. It'll prove very useful in fleshing out the full scenario that'll set the stage for the campaign. Which will help make it more enjoyable for the participants.

You're very welcome.  It sounds like a neat campaign, I feel kind of invested now and would be curious to hear how it turns out!

Until the participant finishes their character(they don't have the core rulebooks, but I do so its slow since we're on different continents so I can't just drop by and show it), I'll stick mostly to preparing the background for it. Based on current information that people in this thread gave me plus their feedback, I have at least a somewhat better general idea for how things likely went. Something like this:

Dictator(fictional character descended from the real life royal lineages in Scandinavia) birth in 2028 -> Grows up in a Scandinavian Union that suffers from the various issues mentioned in the thread, leading to this shaping the persons opinions -> Joins the military in 2046 as part of the mandatory conscription(we conscript men and women here) -> Works their way up the ranks, forming a militaristic personality mixed with scandinavist nationalistic views -> Becomes monarch at some point in their 20ies and starts working on subverting the workings of the Scandinavian Union and using their charisma to grow in popularity -> Deals with internal enemies, Maersk and some others, including starting a slow military build up that speeds up as time and resources allow for it -> Becomes High Queen of the Scandinavian Union due to shenanigans(some due to the monarch, some not and are just exploited) -> Fans pro-scandinavist sentiments and uses the TPA(and by extension NAN) while being political rivals of TNN(because dictators love making use of scapegoats) -> Makes political allies elsewhere to try and ensure neutrality(thinking of Quebec, UCAS and CAS in this case) or perhaps even support in some fashion -> Continues military and economic build ups -> Campaign intro and early missions -> Spring or summer 2078 the SU invades TPA, taking Svalbard and Iceland while blockading Greenland and the rest while military forces take over Greenland over the course of a week(its meant to happen very fast and push TPA into a corner by pushing what little they have to the mainland) -> More campaign missions -> -> Someone profits(probably a megacorp, a dragon or both).

Thats the rough plan as it stands right now and is meant to take place over decades before the campaign starts. It'll probably be adjusted continually until it can be started.

[Rosa]

Almost sounds like you're recreating the Kalmar Union of 1397-1523.

I have a question though. Why would Maersk or for that matter the queen be antagonistic to each other?  Seems to me that they would instead be natural allies in the effort to limit the power and influence of the "foreign" megacorps just like you see with the Japan corps and UCAS/Ares.