Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Frankie the Fomori on <06-07-11/2246:18>

Title: Street Legends
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <06-07-11/2246:18>
So i was wondering what was in this title, so I did some checking around the net and found this:

Swap Bullets between shots, or Shots between bullets

At the end of a run, you’ve either got a good story to tell, or you’re dead. Live long enough, and you’ll get enough stories to fill a book, and some of them will be killer. There is a certain class of people out on the streets that runners love to talk about, the people at the center of the stories swapped late at night over a round of wiper fluid hooch. Some of them are good, some of them are lucky, and some of them are among the most powerful creatures of the Sixth World. All of them, in their own way, are legends.

Street Legends profiles forty renowned figures in the Sixth World, including JackPoint stalwarts such as Haze, Kane and Puck; classic runners like Serrin Shamander and Tommy Talon; and powerful behind-the-scenes figures including Lugh Surehand, Nadja Daviar, and the great dragon Lofwyr. Learn about hunting vampires with Martin De Vries, breaking into impossible places with The Smiling Bandit, and trying to put a face to the elusive Hans Brackhaus.

Street Legends contains short fiction bringing these characters to life, as well as text describing each person and what makes them a legend. Also, each and every person profiled has complete game stats. Even the dragons.

All I got to say is thank you thank you......though early this would be the best type of sourcebook ever for me. I hope sooner than later on the release date but am willing to wait.....till the end of the week :)
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-07-11/2259:10>
Peripherally, this gives me hope for new novels as well.

Why else give more info on characters we've only seen in them (And the rare bit of shadowtalk?).

And, um, Puck...  How do you stat a brain in a jar?  :P
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <06-07-11/2322:08>
Does this look like a brain in a jar? (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150208396844591&set=a.175243239590.122069.13520584590)

I love this book, and wish I could have written more of it. Hopefully ... Nah. N/M
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Bull on <06-08-11/0125:12>
Yeah, this is a fun book.  And since we're focusing on known characters, hopefully a lot more interesting and useful than, say, Prime Runners was back in the day.

Bull
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-08-11/1102:29>
Does this look like a brain in a jar? (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150208396844591&set=a.175243239590.122069.13520584590)
No, but that could be a "Before" image.  I doubt he looks as pretty after he got planted in the "Rose Garden".
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: JM_Hardy on <06-08-11/1120:05>
Yeah, this is a fun book.  And since we're focusing on known characters, hopefully a lot more interesting and useful than, say, Prime Runners was back in the day.

Bull

I should point out that there are one or two kind of unknown characters (who hopefully you will know more about soon), but generally Bull's assessment is correct.

Jason H.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-08-11/1125:27>
Aw man, there goes the budget again...
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <06-08-11/1139:30>
This is one that will be owned in dead wood + PDF if it comes in both types. Though I am not asking for any spoilers, I can't help but think about whom this book has in it....and if there Novels will be released over Kindle format? I made a sweep of all the greater Seattle Half price book stores plus some of the smaller used book stores and ended up with about 1/3 of the line. Sadly it left me in situations where I have book 2 of one series, but not the others....

I have to say that everyone at SR have really turned things around, Thank you so much. From Mission's to products you have me hook line and sinker...
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: JM_Hardy on <06-08-11/1400:10>
This is one that will be owned in dead wood + PDF if it comes in both types. Though I am not asking for any spoilers, I can't help but think about whom this book has in it....and if there Novels will be released over Kindle format? I made a sweep of all the greater Seattle Half price book stores plus some of the smaller used book stores and ended up with about 1/3 of the line. Sadly it left me in situations where I have book 2 of one series, but not the others....

I have to say that everyone at SR have really turned things around, Thank you so much. From Mission's to products you have me hook line and sinker...

It will be in both print and PDF format, and the print book will be in glorious color. We released some of the older novels in Kindle format, as well as the Spells & Chrome short story anthology; I anticipate future novels will go there as well (and ePub, of course).

I can't give away the whole contents of the book, of course, but if you wander over to the Shadowrun Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/shadowrun) you can find artwork from the book for Serrin Shamandar and Puck. And some discussion of stats for Hestaby and Lofwyr. And a quote from Hans Brackhaus. But that's all I'm sayin' right now.

Jason H.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Grinder on <06-08-11/1418:31>
Full-color? Sweeeet. :)
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <06-08-11/1554:15>
Does this look like a brain in a jar? (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150208396844591&set=a.175243239590.122069.13520584590)
No, but that could be a "Before" image.
It is not.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-08-11/1832:18>
Full-color? Sweeeet. :)
Yes and no, perhaps.

Where was it printed?
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Mystic on <06-08-11/2011:31>
I was wondering if there would ever be a "Prime Runners II". Sweet. Im all for the game mechanics, but for me its always been the people in the universe that make a game fun. Generic world and rules are nice, but its the inhabitants and their struggles that make it interesting. I could read SR stories all day.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: JM_Hardy on <06-08-11/2133:26>
Full-color? Sweeeet. :)
Yes and no, perhaps.

Where was it printed?

This one's going to a domestic printer, but I forget exactly where they are.

Jason H.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-08-11/2256:51>
Full-color? Sweeeet. :)
Yes and no, perhaps.

Where was it printed?

This one's going to a domestic printer, but I forget exactly where they are.

Jason H.
Then I retract any complains I might have had previously.

When the sell sheet for this becomes available I'll print it out and order it at my FLGS!

Sorry to seem so flighty, Jason, but I try to support local (US and British Commonwealth in my case) business as much as I can.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: JM_Hardy on <06-09-11/1309:39>
Then I retract any complains I might have had previously.

When the sell sheet for this becomes available I'll print it out and order it at my FLGS!

Sorry to seem so flighty, Jason, but I try to support local (US and British Commonwealth in my case) business as much as I can.

Understandable and laudable.

Jason H.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Bull on <06-09-11/1339:53>
All I can say is that the art is looking quite shiny!  So far what I've seen of everyone else text is that it looks pretty good.  And someone commented that my piece was pretty "Pink Mohawk", which means I've done my job right. :)

Also, holy drek!  Dragon Stats be cwazy, man!
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-09-11/1451:07>
Also, holy drek!  Dragon Stats be cwazy, man!
Do they also state where the ketchup factories are under equipment?
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <06-09-11/2002:29>
I think Lofwyr's gear section includes "Saeder-Krupp."
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-09-11/2033:46>
I think Lofwyr's gear section includes "Saeder-Krupp."
That's his Lifestyle.  :P
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: SirDelta on <06-15-11/1346:05>
I think Lofwyr's gear section includes "Saeder-Krupp."
That's his Lifestyle.  :P

Saeder-Krupp isn't just a company.

Saeder-Krupp is a way of life!
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Prime Mover on <06-28-11/0039:23>
This one going to print for a gencon release.  Do I smell a PDF in the near future?  I gotta say this books announcement surprised me. Really looking forward to how it turns out.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: hobgoblin on <06-28-11/0130:54>
I was wondering if there would ever be a "Prime Runners II". Sweet. Im all for the game mechanics, but for me its always been the people in the universe that make a game fun. Generic world and rules are nice, but its the inhabitants and their struggles that make it interesting. I could read SR stories all day.
Just as long as they do not turn into someones mary sue demi-god.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: FastJack on <06-28-11/0749:58>
I was wondering if there would ever be a "Prime Runners II". Sweet. Im all for the game mechanics, but for me its always been the people in the universe that make a game fun. Generic world and rules are nice, but its the inhabitants and their struggles that make it interesting. I could read SR stories all day.
Just as long as they do not turn into someones mary sue demi-god.
God, I hate that term.  >:(
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-28-11/1133:10>
Term hatred or not, it is a valid concern.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <06-28-11/1200:00>
I would love to see NPC's that have power abilities all over the place. At the end of the day it is what GM does with the material that matters, not what is printed. IF that GM inserts one of the tougher NPC from a cannon book into their game to play a type of roll (Say demi god) there is a good bet that the same GM would make his own NPC to fill such a role if there was not one printed.

Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Prime Mover on <06-28-11/1216:27>
I agree with varying power levels.  I have a few pcs with characters that have been around since first edition.  I'd welcome some heavy weight stats to pit against them.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <06-28-11/1217:15>
Term hatred or not, it is a valid concern.
I don't think so in this case.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-28-11/1228:10>
Term hatred or not, it is a valid concern.
I don't think so in this case.
Depends on the authors and the direction they go, I guess.

But everyone can have a tendency of doing something with their favorite characters...  It's possible.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <06-28-11/1316:39>
Of course. Everyone has their favorites, and everyone wants them to be special—that's just something inherent to every writer. However, the thing about MSes is that they are better than everyone at everything AND the central focus.

I don't see anyone in the TOC who meets those criteria.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: FastJack on <06-28-11/1352:09>
and everyone wants them to be special—that's just something inherent to every writer.
Correction: inherent to every writer, player, gamemaster, wargamer, etc., etc.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <06-28-11/1404:14>
my mommy said i was special all the time!
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-28-11/1539:24>
Of course. Everyone has their favorites, and everyone wants them to be special—that's just something inherent to every writer. However, the thing about MSes is that they are better than everyone at everything AND the central focus.

I don't see anyone in the TOC who meets those criteria.
OK, fair enough.

I've had a few people accuse some of my characters that I've written being that way, but then they get into the back story, and...  Well, yeah.  I'm hard on my characters.

Also, I fully realize that while you can be good at a lot, you can't be good at EVERYTHING.  So write with that in mind.  Everyone has a blind spot and weakness, sometimes very obvious and not apparent to the person in question.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <06-28-11/2006:34>
Actually you can with enough Karma in fourth edition.

I really hate caps.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-28-11/2023:41>
Do you like vests?
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <06-28-11/2137:15>
Only as part of a three-piece suit.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-28-11/2142:42>
Did not get the joke. (http://youtu.be/4Y2VKjZrSeo)   :'(
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: hobgoblin on <06-29-11/1022:39>
Actually you can with enough Karma in fourth edition.

I really hate caps.
Sadly, uncapped do not work much better. I think some old edition GMs claimed they had to basically double all target numbers to even begin to challenge the older characters in the group. Basically moving the goal posts closer together for that specific character because he was that good at the skill in question.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-29-11/1237:02>
That's a problem with all uncapped systems.

I remember one character in a Star Wars D6 campaign we had, the Player's first character that he played for years!  His skill with shooting was so astronomical that he started doing, "Called Left Testicle Shot, With A Rifle, Hip Shot, One Handed, OFF Handed." and still be able to do it.

His other insane skill came from Role Playing and having a fat pimp roll of cred.  :P
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <06-29-11/1802:33>
Did not get the joke. (http://youtu.be/4Y2VKjZrSeo)   :'(
I don't play or know anything about video games.

Actually you can with enough Karma in fourth edition.

I really hate caps.
Sadly, uncapped do not work much better. I think some old edition GMs claimed they had to basically double all target numbers to even begin to challenge the older characters in the group. Basically moving the goal posts closer together for that specific character because he was that good at the skill in question.
Yeah ... See I think moving the goal posts in that instance is kind of the idea.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-29-11/1831:28>
"Until they added the mobile baskets." - Old Shaq.  :P
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: hobgoblin on <06-30-11/0227:02>
Yeah ... See I think moving the goal posts in that instance is kind of the idea.
So simply because a grand master foo steps up to the plate, the bullseye is magically moved 200 yards back while keeping everything else equal?
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-30-11/0234:00>
So simply because a grand master foo steps up to the plate, the bullseye is magically moved 200 yards back while keeping everything else equal?
I think it's more like the Kai Lords gamebooks.

In the later ones, they didn't even bother with the thief attacks in the city, they just comment that you left a few bodies of idiots behind you as you moved through the rough parts of town.

The Grand Master Foo deals with the bigger issues.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: hobgoblin on <06-30-11/0237:34>
So simply because a grand master foo steps up to the plate, the bullseye is magically moved 200 yards back while keeping everything else equal?
I think it's more like the Kai Lords gamebooks.

In the later ones, they didn't even bother with the thief attacks in the city, they just comment that you left a few bodies of idiots behind you as you moved through the rough parts of town.

The Grand Master Foo deals with the bigger issues.
So the problem would mostly be that of mixing people of very different ability? Hmm, i can see that.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-30-11/0239:50>
Power Creep is always an issue, no matter the game or game system.  After awhile, characters curb stomp everything in sight.  Even video games are like this.

Of course, Shadowrun has the Reputation and Notoriety systems to keep that somewhat in check.  Can't be a good "Deniable Asset" if the world knows you're a Shadowrunner for the big jobs after all.

...

Well, in LA...
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <06-30-11/0240:57>
and everyone wants them to be special—that's just something inherent to every writer.
Correction: inherent to every writer, player, gamemaster, wargamer, etc., etc.
Considering my virtual to tabletop gaming is at a ratio of man years:hours, I have this habit of treating gaming as a writing exercise.

So simply because a grand master foo steps up to the plate, the bullseye is magically moved 200 yards back while keeping everything else equal?
I think it's more like the Kai Lords gamebooks.

In the later ones, they didn't even bother with the thief attacks in the city, they just comment that you left a few bodies of idiots behind you as you moved through the rough parts of town.

The Grand Master Foo deals with the bigger issues.
So the problem would mostly be that of mixing people of very different ability? Hmm, i can see that.
Something like that.

I hate, hate, HATE GMs who complain that they cannot challenge powerful PCs (or God forbid, Legendary NPCs). That has happened to me NEVER, and I assure you I have I dealt with Shadowrun PCs who can only be described as Godlike (well, demigodlike anyway). Everything in gaming, as in life, is a matter of context. I am not going to throw a PC who kidnapped Nadja Daviar into a gang fight. First, he's going to win if Initiative gets rolled, but more importantly he did not get to be that good by being stupid. When an elf and a human are trekking through a besieged Ork Underground to get into the SCIRE and some newb troll gives them shit for being either crazy or stupid smoothies (or both), the human put him in his place by saying the magic words: They worked with a bigtime OU runner inside the SCIRE when Deus controlled it, and the troll ... Didn't. The other trolls and orks just shut up. Problem solved.


So simply because a grand master foo steps up to the plate, the bullseye is magically moved 200 yards back while keeping everything else equal?
No. He cake walks it and then goes on to do something interesting. I don't mean moving the goalposts in the middle of the game. That's just stupid. I mean that a starting PC and a PC with 5,000 karma should not be looking at challenges in any way that is remotely related. The starting PC is battling for their life. The uber-PC flies in at Mach n and kills everyone before fighting a foe whose Divining skill is so high that the uber-PC is burning karma pool like mad rerolling to avoid, oh say, a hideously booby-trapped jungle while dodging missiles from three helo gunships that were all sent because the villain is in the PC's class, and therefore an actual challenge, having known exactly when the PC will be where and what they will do.

I like the idea of progress. I like the idea of limitless potential. I hate that you can be the best in the world at chargen ... Just like 10,000 other people.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-30-11/0255:41>
Thus me liking my "Accountant From Hell" build.  A nice, average, ordinary person, especially with his backstory.  Too bad it's so hard to play him properly (I'm just too emotional.), so I might just have to relegate him to writing.  I might have to go more with Pup the Dog Shaman, as he's closer to my own personality to play properly.  (The character with you in mind also has to be taken into consideration.).  If I ever get to play, that is.

Then again, my own "Marty Sue" character might be a bit of a guilty pleasure.  Even if he isn't good at everything, and is more than a little insane (Having your wife's skull take out your eyes and face, then having a building drop on you will do that to you), he does have a tendency to have a bit of everything ready (Of course, I've put, um, five years of work into his entire backstory, 20-years of which is in the Shadows.).

*Shakes Head*  This book can't come out soon enough, although I might just get the PDF.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <06-30-11/0305:52>
...

Magic is a Hell of a force multiplier in SR4 with enough karma.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <06-30-11/0308:37>
Yeah, point.  My "Marty Sue" isn't magical at all, and doesn't know much about magic (Although more than the average person.  That's what is shown on Karl Kombatmage, however, so...).

Speaking of Magic, my favorite Mage from the novels is in Street Legends, and I got to see his artwork!   ;D
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Charybdis on <06-30-11/2223:08>
...

Magic is a Hell of a force multiplier in SR4 with enough karma.

Yeah, but (5x Rating) is a pretty huge karma requirement....

Disturbs me greatly when I see the stats for some unnamed corporate mage opposition with Magic at 10.
Means you're facing an NPC who has spent:
- 170 Karma raising magic from 6-10
- 70 Karma on Initiation to Grade 4
= 240 Karma, at minimum

Isn't 250 Karma 'Prime Runner' status?
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-01-11/0146:42>
We've had that discussion.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Charybdis on <07-04-11/0006:54>
We've had that discussion.
Apologies.... I must have missed it :(
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-04-11/0256:16>
I meant among the freelancers.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: KarmaInferno on <07-04-11/0801:35>
So the problem would mostly be that of mixing people of very different ability? Hmm, i can see that.

This is why writing for "living" campaigns like Shadowrun Missions is sometimes such a pain in the ass.

You have to write without knowing if the characters are going to be 100 karma pros or 0 karma newbies, or indeed whether you'll have a mixed table of varying power levels.

And as such you have to write somehow so the high-power characters can be challenged without the lower powered ones being just crushed.



-k
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <07-04-11/0956:19>
This is why writing for "living" campaigns like Shadowrun Missions is sometimes such a pain in the ass.

You have to write without knowing if the characters are going to be 100 karma pros or 0 karma newbies, or indeed whether you'll have a mixed table of varying power levels.

And as such you have to write somehow so the high-power characters can be challenged without the lower powered ones being just crushed.
And this was one of the (relatively minor) reasons I never wrote for Missions (sorry, Bull). We'll leave out that, in general, I suck at writing adventures, but writing them for targets I can't even see? Nah. I got enough shit going on in my life.

Maybe when my real life allows me to return to freelancing....
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Bull on <07-05-11/0109:59>
Sokay Patrick.

Here's the real problem with Shadowrun...  Karma totals don't really matter.  You can have a killer build as a 0 Karma Newbie throwing 20+ dice for his core tests if you've massaged your points right, and you can have a very well-rounded, but unspectacular 200 Karma veteran that throws 12ish dice on most tests if you don't focus all your karma into one place.

Plus you never know what the group mix will be.  You could have a team of social adepts, 6 hackers, or 6 complete combat monsters, with no other skills to work with.

So my outlook is...  Don't worry about it.  Really.

I simply try to write (and have my guys write) a basic, balanced adventure.  I try to make sure there are multiple ways to handle the adventure, so that any mix of characters can get from Point A to Point F successfully (They may have to occasionally think, but they can do it).  And I try to write decent, balanced NPCS.

But at the end of the day, and this is in the Boiler PLate text at the beginning of every Mission...  I put my trust in the GM to modify things as needed.  If the group is particularly magic heavy, add some magic and counter magic.  If they're combat intensive and just ripping through the bad guys, GMs are encouraged to beef up security.  If players are not being challenged, espeically if they're finding the game a bit boring, it's up to the Gamemaster to add that challenge. 

We try and provide some ideas to help GMs along, but at the end of the day, you cannot write for every circumstance and every group make up.  So I don't try.  I cover the bases, and then trust in my GMs to do their job. 

And at the end of the day, if everyone's having fun...  Well that's the point.  And hopefully we succeed at that.

Bull
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: hobgoblin on <07-15-11/1612:27>
hey, a preview http://www.shadowrun4.com/2011/07/ennie-voters-earn-street-legends-preview/
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-15-11/2051:36>
OK, most of the characters look good, pity about no Argent or Dirk.  Hey, Bull, sweet!

Wait...

What?

Kellan Colt?  I thought we were forgetting those years?
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Critias on <07-15-11/2105:23>
Kellan Colt?  I thought we were forgetting those years?
Much as some of us as individuals might want to, as a company there's no denying that she was the focal point of a whole trilogy by her lonesome self, pretty much.  *shrugs*  One little "nod" to that series (and the action figure line, in a way) shouldn't be enough to sour a whole book. 
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-15-11/2112:07>
Yeah, well.


Heh. If you told me in 2005 my name would appear in a SR book next to Steve Kenson's, I'd have called you a goddamn liar.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Bull on <07-15-11/2133:10>
Hey, there are some great characters from the little WizKids experiment.  The game was crap, the action figures were often a bit light on the action part, and sure the novels were basically "young adult" Shadowrun Fiction because they were aimed at an audience that never materialized, the one WizKids hoped would be introduced to the world through the Clix game.  But some of the characters were really cool. 

Of course, having written G-Dogg and Silver Max for some fiction for the website, I'm biased.  But there was a cool backstory to Lothan, G-Dogg, and company.  And I plan for G-Dogg to make a reappearance at some point, maybe in Missions.  :)

Bull
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-15-11/2148:57>
All right, I'll be nice, sorry.  The rest of the characters are pure awesome!

Although, I do have to wonder about Bull being included.  Bugger's got a big enough head as is.  :P
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Bull on <07-15-11/2228:45>
Trust me.  Th character of Bull?  Yeah, he never quite manages to become arrogant.  He's good, he knows he's good, but...  As FJ mentions in the preview, he's a constant hard-luck story.  Bad shit happens to him, constantly. 

Me, on the other hand...  Muhuhaha...  Oh, no, wait.  Bad shit happens to me constantly too. :)

Bull
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-15-11/2357:19>
That seems to be a constant among SR freelancers.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-16-11/0002:31>
What?  Bad shit hitting people?  I think it's gamers period.

One reason to want to not be in reality...
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Mystic on <07-16-11/0101:08>
The more often you stick your neck out, the greater the chances your head is gonna be cut off. But then, if you never stick your neck out, nothing seems to get done. Vicious catch-22, no?
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-16-11/0140:43>
Why do you think I have an entrenching tool?
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Mystic on <07-16-11/0323:15>
Why do you think I have an entrenching tool?

Personally, I prefer a good old axe or machette, but that's just me.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Irian on <07-16-11/0441:07>
hey, a preview http://www.shadowrun4.com/2011/07/ennie-voters-earn-street-legends-preview/

Wow. It must be really hard work to produce something THAT boring. Half a page badly formatted equipment list for a character? Are you kidding me? And some of the characters are the ones I hoped never to hear from again. And of course, the "legendary" people are better why? Because they have different rules. Yes, of course. Makes total sense, breaking the system just because you can't build these characters otherwise.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-16-11/0443:56>
Why do you think I have an entrenching tool?
Personally, I prefer a good old axe or machette, but that's just me.
I live in Canada, a shovel is easier to explain to the cops.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Critias on <07-16-11/0511:26>
Half a page badly formatted equipment list for a character?
You're looking at quite simply the most gear intensive page in the book, the equipment list for a high-end drone rigger, and a page so full of goodies that it got Jason to comment -- just about the amount of stuff in that one page -- about it over on the Shadowrun blog months ago.  I'm sorry if that part of the preview doesn't float your proverbial boat, but trust me when I say not every write-up is that gear intensive (if that's what's bothering you). 

Quote
And some of the characters are the ones I hoped never to hear from again.
As has been said already, there's no pleasing everyone when it comes to trying to make a list of characters for something like Street Legends.  Some will complain that their favorite legend isn't there, some will complain that characters they don't like are there, some will complain that it's nothing but old characters who've already been around the block, some will complain about any new faces.  Plain fact:  someone will complain, no matter what. 

Quote
And of course, the "legendary" people are better why? Because they have different rules. Yes, of course. Makes total sense, breaking the system just because you can't build these characters otherwise.
Not quite, no.  I'll tackle this one in part because I'm the only guy around at 4:00, but in part because this rule was largely my idea. 

They're better because they have an awful lot of dice to roll for most of the things they do.  In order to highlight that, we suggest an (existing!) optional rule gets used.  One that's designed for cinematic gameplay (as befitting the best of the best), and one that mathematically increases the effective difference between very large die pools (like these guys) and moderate to small die pools. 

Rather than "break the system" by only applying that rule to these top-tier characters, though, please note that we're suggesting it occur for everyone (PCs most certainly included, as the focal point of any campaign) when one of these legendary 'runners is around.  The inclusion of a street legend into a campaign should be a Big Deal (tm) and players should know that, and understand that things just got kicked up a notch or two -- so, with the pressure on and the stakes high, the laws of probability get tweaked on the nose, your campaign gets a hit of high-octane awesomefuel, and suddenly everyone starts pulling off more awesome shit, leaving grunts in the dust.

As a preemptive strike against the "ZOMG MARY SUUUUUUUE" complaints about an optional rule being suggested for/applied to these NPCs only, we included an end zone, a goal post, a clear line in the sand that offers player characters a way to earn legendary status themselves.  It's an optional rule (just like using the cinematic rules in the first place!), but a fun way for some players and GMs to have a clear end-of-campaign or retirement (or whatever else) goal.  Hitting level 20 in D&D used to be a big deal, right?  Now there's a similar sort of finish line available in Shadowrun, offering those who want it a clear delineation between being just plain old awesome, and being genuinely epic.  If someone's in such a long-standing, high-powered, campaign that they think the 100 karma is worth it, they can drop that chunk of change and start pulling off crazy James Bond shit.  If they don't, they don't have to. 

I'm sorry if you don't like that whole inset box, but do remember that "Running Legends" is optional.  You can feel free to just let the legends get hits on a 4+ but everyone else sticks with the normal 5+ (which was suggested), you can let legends always reroll a 6 instead of just when they spend Edge like everyone else (which was suggested), you can come up with some other special rule that legends get (Edge manipulation differences, for instance, which were suggested), you can of course run a whole campaign with the cinematic rules if you want, or you can just ignore that whole box and hope that the real-life probability curve lets their larger-than-normal die pools do the heavy lifting. 

It's a suggestion for a way to capture some of the over-the-top cinematic fun that some of these characters can muster up, it's not a rule carved in stone.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: hobgoblin on <07-16-11/1016:17>
Half a page badly formatted equipment list for a character?
You're looking at quite simply the most gear intensive page in the book, the equipment list for a high-end drone rigger, and a page so full of goodies that it got Jason to comment -- just about the amount of stuff in that one page -- about it over on the Shadowrun blog months ago.  I'm sorry if that part of the preview doesn't float your proverbial boat, but trust me when I say not every write-up is that gear intensive (if that's what's bothering you).
Heh, riggers basically come out as metahuman packrats.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <07-16-11/1047:34>
Wow. It must be really hard work to produce something THAT boring. Half a page badly formatted equipment list for a character? Are you kidding me? And some of the characters are the ones I hoped never to hear from again. And of course, the "legendary" people are better why? Because they have different rules. Yes, of course. Makes total sense, breaking the system just because you can't build these characters otherwise.
Must...keep...mouth...shut....
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-16-11/1201:11>
Wow. It must be really hard work to produce something THAT boring.
You're welcome to try and make the list look much more interesting in the same space and show how it's done.  If there's no construction to it, it's just bitter criticism.

The only time I've seen equipment lists that looked interesting, it filled a binder.  For one character.  Not exactly conductive to put into a bound book intended for sale.

As well, the interesting and intriguing parts are going to be the fluff text that is the rest of the book which goes into character history, personality, concepts, and so on.  You know, life!
And some of the characters are the ones I hoped never to hear from again. And of course, the "legendary" people are better why? Because they have different rules. Yes, of course. Makes total sense, breaking the system just because you can't build these characters otherwise.
I've already put my two cents in about Kerran Colt so I don't need to again.  Choices had to be made, and in a book like this, yeah, no pleasing everyone with every choice.

As for breaking the system to make these characters, these are legendary, epic characters that the PCs want to be like when they grow up.  They have to eat all their vat-grown veggies to do it, too.  Some of these characters have been working the Shadows for over a decade.  Half of the 'Runners die in their first job, and 9-out-of-10 'Runners don't last a whole year.

Saying that it's "Broken" is like a 200 BP street bum character complaining about how the "Standard" 400 BP characters in Shadowrun are "Broken" because they're able to go out and do jobs that pay more than sitting on the sidewalk begging for spare cred.  Or complaining about how a beginner guitarist can't play as well as Randy Rhoads.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <07-16-11/1219:53>
I have to say I love the preview so far.

The rule adds exactly the tone to the game legendary PC should preform to!

I see street legends as a possible platform that we fans could use to get what we want. Offer support, appreciation along with professional criticism and SR may put out smaller supplements to include the more demanded prime runners.

Would I love to see Argent, wolf, Ryan mercury, dirk, wolfgang, doc raven, ghost, and sally sung among many others stated up? Hell yes, but I feel the tone of the book is focused on current runners. I also see it mainly steering clear of messing with writers PC's as much as possible.

I know I have talked to Michael A. Stackpole and he stated he would love to do another wolf and raven novel. Possibly the ones that are omitted or added hint at future fiction in the works?

Regardless of the last few hopefull thoughts, I again would like to thank the writers and staff for there work.

Edit: changed stupid mistake on writer lol. I knew that!!!
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: MikeW on <07-16-11/1231:45>
Appreciate the kind words Frankie.  I hope you will enjoy what I've written for Street Legends as well (though none of my four sections were highlighted in the preview).

I was going to say that in favor of keeping things positive, I would suggest that people who don't see their favorite cannon character highlighted in Street Legends, to use this thread as an opportunity to express which characters they would like to see highlighted. Just because they aren't in this particular product, doesn't mean they can't be in future products down the road. There are a great many fascinating characters in Shadowrun that deserve the spotlight, and having a thread to list those characters would be helpful. Many of these characters span so many years and editions, that it is easy to only use the most memorable or the most recent characters.  And really, we need to be encouraged to dig deeper and explore SR's roots and its characters.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-16-11/1232:16>
Would I love to see Argent, wolf, Ryan mercury, dirk, wolfgang, doc raven, ghost, and sally sung among many others stated up? Hell yes, but I feel the tone of the book is focused on current runners. I also see it mainly steering clear of messing with writers PC's as much as possible.

I know I have talked to R.A Salvatore and he stated he would love to do another wolf and raven novel. Possibly the ones that are omitted or added hint at future fiction in the works?
Yeah, the old crew.  Thing is, it's been decades since we've seen then, a lot of their work has been out of print for awhile now, so...  Yeah, they got to target the younger audience and the older folks whose memories can't get past...  ...  What was I saying?

Oh, and is R.A. Salvatore is writing for Michael A. Stackpole now?
Appreciate the kind words Frankie.  I hope you will enjoy what I've written for Street Legends as well (though none of my four sections were highlighted in the preview).

I was going to say that in favor of keeping things positive, I would suggest that people who don't see their favorite cannon character highlighted in Street Legends, to use this thread as an opportunity to express which characters they would like to see highlighted. Just because they aren't in this particular product, doesn't mean they can't be in future products down the road. There are a great many fascinating characters in Shadowrun that deserve the spotlight, and having a thread to list those characters would be helpful. Many of these characters span so many years and editions, that it is easy to only use the most memorable or the most recent characters.
More of these?  Well, I'll have to see this one before I whoop for joy, but this does give me a happy feeling.  ;D

Put me down for Argent and Dirk for sure, as well as Twist and Dodger.  I want to know how those folks have weathered the massive upheavals since we saw them last.

Dodger particularly!  I just hope he isn't in some dark basement writing crappy poetry and listening to non-stop JetBlack in a Emo-Fest due to losing his slightly insane and half-dissected AI Lover...
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-16-11/1319:09>
This book has characters I don't like (the dragons). It also has characters I really love. And yes there are a hundred other characters that are just as deserving to be in this book as the ones who made it. It's already been said how and why, and believe me if I had the time I'd have gladly worked on more than just Nadja Daviar. I introduced over forty to fifty new characters in Spy Games alone, and I'd love to have them all detailed and statted up in addition to the old fart runners like Argent and Dodger, whose entry would also include me killing off Ronin in a shadowtalk aside because fuck that dude, or Harlequin (whose writeup in this book would probably suffer by ... Something), Ryan Mercury, or someone like Lloyd Ritter whose entry could also cover Saito's fate—but whose background is only known in the pool to two ex-freelancers and myself (and maybe Critias). The fact that Ryan Mercury even gets named in this book is nothing short of a miracle considering everything I had to cram into my chapter, and when you see it you'll probably agree that yes he deserved his own entry, but I am comfortable in saying that I am the only one happy to do it because he and Daviar are literary dynamite. I am going to get slagged for her writeup, and would no matter what. But after all of the shit I've said about some of my predecessors and co-authors I am due.


Half a page badly formatted equipment list for a character?
You're looking at quite simply the most gear intensive page in the book, the equipment list for a high-end drone rigger, and a page so full of goodies that it got Jason to comment -- just about the amount of stuff in that one page -- about it over on the Shadowrun blog months ago.
This is exactly why I included it.

I knew that there was going to have to be at least one example stat block to show off how incredibly badass some of these characters' stats are, and since Jason had already commented on it I felt it appropriate to show it off.

This is same reason why of all of the short fiction pieces in the book I chose the opening to Parlor Tricks is because Jason and/or Randall had already commented publicly about how it has such an amazing opening line.

Considering Critias is my best friend and co-writer on the stories we did for SL, and considering that I am hardly above self-aggrandizing the fact that it was already being used to whet peoples' appetites is why I picked her story over the intro to ours (since part two is certain to really fucking piss off some people, and the third piece is the damn climax).

Here's an overview of what I did to build this.

Page 1: TOC. BTW, in the full PDF the chapter headings are hyperlinks. Bonus points to Matt for including those. I want the TOC because a) it's one page, and b) there are no surprises on who is or isn't in there.

Page 2. Credits. Because credit where credit is due.

Page 3. Intro. This goes back to when Mike M. was the line developer and they had started releasing previews of the book. I also wanted to include it because right there that one page sets out exactly where we stand. If you don't buy that, the next seven pages and the book are probably not something you're interested in.

Page 4. JackPoint. Yeah, I succumbed to the "this is how it's always done" mentality for that one. It's the JP login page, and were I to go back I'd cut it out.

Pages 5-6. Cayman. Page 6 is an amazing full-page illustration that deserves to be shown off (since Jason has already shown off Hestaby, Puck, and ... someone else I forget offhand). It is in fact my favorite piece in the book. Going back, Page 5 shows you exactly how these things are going to begin, and besides that Cayman has a great introduction to the book.

Pages 7-8. Parlor Tricks. See above.

Page 9. Rigger X stat sheet. See above.

Page 10. Bull. I wanted someone from each grouping, and that seemed the most appropriate page. Plus Bull looks like a damn pimp in that image. My second favorite after Cayman.

Page 11. Villiers/Lanier. Group three.

I wanted to keep this to ten pages or less, and I think I put a decent amount of thought into the layout aesthetic of the sample to convey exactly what readers should expect from the entirety of the book. What you see in the sample is, expanded to 180 or so pages exactly what you'll get from the full book.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-16-11/1405:49>
Bull looks bad ass in art and from the pics I've seen of him.  He's very much a very typical Ork without even Goblinizing!  Wish I was going to GenCon.

Anyhow, one complaint about a character, and the OMG WALL OF TEXT EQUIPMENT are hardly reasons to bad mouth what could be an excellent product.  It certainly appears to be shaping up for that.  It's on my PDF Purchase list certainly.

As for the "If It's Statted, We Can Kill It".  Well, this isn't "Deities and Demigods".  It's not like we're getting stats for Thor and have PCs gearing up to go kick the Thunder God's hoop from here to Valhalla.  It's a bunch of mortal characters in a game universe where MAIN CHARACTERS HAVE DIED!  Wedge?  Ricky Ratboy?  Hatchetman (Oh dear $Deity, HATCHETMAN!)?  Even Captain Chaos who in any other written work would have lived forever!  FastJack has a in-universe reason for his long life being that he's lived a long time in a really dangerous job.  Think on that.  (If you can't figure it out, read about Cohen the Barbarian and his Silver Horde.  And what they did *AFTER* they died!).

There's also the little matter that he's an enigmatic character that no one has even seen in decades, which reduces the life threatening events to him by quite a bit (Except for when he's on the Matrix, but, well, he literally wrote the book on Matrix Combat, knows it cover-to-cover, and is more than willing to break the rules in order to win no matter what.).

So, yeah, wait and see.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-16-11/1416:16>
To be clear: Just because they have stats does not mean that you can kill them. The one thing SR4 has going for it is that its stupid caps don't apply to magic.

The more I think about him, the more I don't give a flying fuck about FastJack. He was already semi-retired in his Target:Matrix writeup, and that was ten years ago in-game. If I did anything with him, it would probably force him out of the Matrix (which would also determine once and for all if he is the buffed-out, Leonized gentleman celebrating his 72nd birthday on page 82 of Augmentation) and because I'd be doing something new and putting him out into the world for the first time since the Second Edition core book which would automatically piss people off.

Oh, funny story. Patrick Goodman called me last night to talk about Shadowrun. He foolishly asked "Can you even name someone from Prime Runners?" aside from de Vries. And then he remembered who he asked. :D

As I recall offhand, Mueller appears in SoE. The hoodlum priest is killed off in Feral Cities. Rhonabwy is still Rhonabwy. Jonty is the leader of a Winternight cell. Teachdaire is going insane. De Vries ... is in SL. Kaminsky appears in SOE and Augmentation. Suki is a simstar in SSG/SOTA/Street Magic. Sutherland was in a bunch of novels. Gates is mentioned in Seattle 2072. Still, that book is the prime example of wasted potential in SR.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <07-16-11/1432:52>
Yeah, I was drinking deeply from the cup of, 'What the hell were you thinking?" that time....
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-16-11/1520:23>
You were also rather distracted as I recall.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Nebular on <07-16-11/1708:10>
Interesting preview, but I won't be grabbing this. If this offered more than just "here are some NPCs that are better than everyone else", like in-depth NPC creation discussions (such as the NPC sections of the Elder Evils and DMG II books for D&D 3.5), I think the book would be much more useful. As it is, I just don't see the need, much like the page-long epic NPC write-ups from the Forgotten Realms books in D&D 3.5. Yes, there are really powerful characters out there with a lot of accomplishments, but the game should focus on the players and the things they're doing, not the things that other characters the players will never meet have done. Characters might hear about them in passing, but they shouldn't be living in the shadows of other NPCs and constantly hearing about why they're better than you and how they could kick your collective butts before you even pulled the trigger.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Critias on <07-16-11/1722:12>
Yes, there are really powerful characters out there with a lot of accomplishments, but the game should focus on the players and the things they're doing, not the things that other characters the players will never meet have done.
One of the reasons we're statting everyone up is so that they CAN be included in a game.  Player characters can meet them, now, and interact with them in a meaningful fashion (as allies or enemies), and shoot them square in the fucking face if they feel like it.

I'm gonna be contrary to Crimson's earlier post, just a bit, here;  these guys can be killed.  Some of them won't go easy, but none of them are unstoppable.  If your PCs play it smart and have the skills and gear, you, as a GM, know just how tough Lofwyr is, now, or Lugh Surehand, or whomever.  What's more, many of these characters are specialists (in as much as anyone who's made it in "the business" for very long is still a specialist) -- catch Rigger X without his toys, or Bull in the meat instead of the matrix, and your odds go way up.

If you're just not interested, you're just not interested, and (of course) that's totally fine.  But I don't want folks to think this is just a "ZOMG LOOK HOW AWESOME THEY ARE" book of Elminsters and Drizzt Do'Urdens or something.  "Character" is still one of the words in "non player character," and these NPCs are just fodder for your game.  If including them makes your campaign more awesome and gives your PCs the chance to have a richer story, so be it.  But it'll always be the GM and the PCs that make the game, not the NPCs, and we writers are well aware of that.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-16-11/1736:53>
Here's a hint:  Don't shoot Bull in the face, it'll improve his looks and slot him off.  A lot.  ;D
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-16-11/1745:28>
There is also the matter that what some of these characters are doing is significantly affecting the metaplot. You may not meet them directly (though there is no reason why you couldn't. We made sure of that), but their presence is noticeable.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-16-11/1750:37>
Breaking the Universe, bad idea.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <07-16-11/1833:35>
I like it because it gives a base line for Different PC archetypes. There maybe things these PC's do with equipment and skill I have not thought off (most assured there is). As a GM I know what certain base line Prime runners look like, I know what type and quality of gear is reasonable with a given background.

But most important of all it lets us see another side of the universe. I have the chance to see what these NPC's look like, what type of stories they have, another view of the streets/ corps they grow up in. This last bit is priceless for me; i never mind what goes on with my PC, as long as the story is being told. This gives that story more chances to be told in depth!
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-16-11/1842:00>
We must burn down the forest to save it!
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-16-11/2017:06>
We must burn down the forest to save it!
Funny enough (Sorry, comment made me think of this), my latest DTF notebook that I got is actually not tree pulp, but sugar cane waste (http://www.staples.com/Sustainable-Earth-by-Staples-Eco-Friendly-Notebook-9-1-2-x-6/product_749565).  More renewable and just as good quality.  Not as good as hemp paper, but a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

I just wish I knew where they manufactured it or got the raw materials...

Back on topic:  "We’ve all been there, in that place where we hate everybody. Where we think that people who don’t need people are the luckiest goddamned people in the whole goddamned world." - FastJack.

I live in that frame of mind at times.  Sometimes I'm amazed that I'm as sociable as I am...  It certainly sets things up for the book that's making me like it more and more...
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: The Dweller on <07-16-11/2121:23>
Hey, someone return to that Salvatore/Stackpole comment.  Did Salvatore take over writing that included characters Stackpole had used previously?

Also, would throw my hat in for seeing Kid Stealth show up in print along with Dr Raven, Wolfgang and crew.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Raventrickster on <07-16-11/2133:58>
No, that was a typo, and he fixed it in an edit later.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Grinder on <07-17-11/0408:31>
Bull's story is really... boring. It's well-written, but still boring. And stuff like "follow the riddles of the Evil Mastermind and survive deadly traps" is lacks imagination. Dunno.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Mystic on <07-17-11/0612:56>
Personally, and like with all things, I'll wait on any serious statements (and stick to my normal smart-ass comments) until I see a final product. A trailer does not a movie make, nor is a preview the complete product. So far, I have seen good art and some good writing. One of my favorite SR books (and I hold my copy dear to this day) is Prime Runners. I loved that book because it gave you a corss section of what and who is out there. And I loved it more when some of those characters came up in various novels.

Yeah, I love Shadowrun; not for the system, not for the gear (but gear still is cool), but for the story. And without characters there is no story. It's like having a favorite person to love or hate in anything be it sports, NASCAR, politics, authors, etc. And that's what I want; more story. A supplement for the new wiz-bang mcguffin is great, but this (and maybe more NOVELS), and missions is what I am really want to see more of because they tell the STORY.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: hobgoblin on <07-17-11/1025:19>
Bull's story is really... boring. It's well-written, but still boring. And stuff like "follow the riddles of the Evil Mastermind and survive deadly traps" is lacks imagination. Dunno.
I suspect we are talking about a actual game campaign that played out that way...
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: hobgoblin on <07-17-11/1026:30>
Personally, and like with all things, I'll wait on any serious statements (and stick to my normal smart-ass comments) until I see a final product. A trailer does not a movie make, nor is a preview the complete product. So far, I have seen good art and some good writing. One of my favorite SR books (and I hold my copy dear to this day) is Prime Runners. I loved that book because it gave you a corss section of what and who is out there. And I loved it more when some of those characters came up in various novels.

Yeah, I love Shadowrun; not for the system, not for the gear (but gear still is cool), but for the story. And without characters there is no story. It's like having a favorite person to love or hate in anything be it sports, NASCAR, politics, authors, etc. And that's what I want; more story. A supplement for the new wiz-bang mcguffin is great, but this (and maybe more NOVELS), and missions is what I am really want to see more of because they tell the STORY.
Sadly statistics have shown, across the p&p gaming world, that crunch outsells fluff.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Grinder on <07-17-11/1121:58>
Bull's story is really... boring. It's well-written, but still boring. And stuff like "follow the riddles of the Evil Mastermind and survive deadly traps" is lacks imagination. Dunno.
I suspect we are talking about a actual game campaign that played out that way...

Not every campaign makes for an interesting story. ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-17-11/1131:23>
But they can make for interesting characters!
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Sengir on <07-17-11/1147:33>
Anyhow, one complaint about a character, and the OMG WALL OF TEXT EQUIPMENT are hardly reasons to bad mouth what could be an excellent product
Assume you wanted to sell a product and had propped up something as the key selling point. Now you post a first preview, which shows exactly one instance of that something. What do you expect people to think?
a) Yep, that's how it's going to look
b) Nah, that's totally not representative, all other occurrences will be better
c) Nah, that's totally not representative, they cherry-picked the best instance

Please pardon my belief in the sanity of CGL by assuming c) or maybe even a). I should have known that they are intentionally trying to sabotage their product with crappy previews...
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: MikeW on <07-17-11/1450:56>
When I was helping proofread the various sections, I approached the job of proofreading as anticipating any criticisms that the fans might have of the various chapters, and offering suggestions on how to correct those possible areas. Now, I must tell you, I did not anticipate criticism for Rigger X's stat box. I thought it looked okay, and if I needed to use it, I knew I could.  No matter how much I tried to anticipate criticism and find a way of fixing things, there are certain things that I could not anticipate for. It is helpful to keep in mind that no matter how hard we try, there are some things that we just won't be able to anticipate until the product is released (or in this case,  a preview).  And frankly, it is impossible to create a product that is 100% free of things to criticize. Something one person may like, someone else will hate. All I can say is that I am extremely confident that each freelance writer, artist, editor, proofreader, gave 100% to making sure Street Legends one of the best SR products. And that I hope everyone keeps an open mind when reading Street Legends, so that they can take away from it things that they can enjoy and possibly use at their own gaming table.  Also keep in mind that the preview didn't incorporate all the strong, selling points of Street Legends. And that there is still much to be gained from it that hasn't yet been revealed.

And come next year, I firmly believe (speaking only for myself) that Street Legends will be up for Origins and the ENnie awards.   

 
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: hobgoblin on <07-17-11/1557:45>
Something one person may like, someone else will hate.
And only the latter is likely to take the time to write about it online.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Bull on <07-17-11/1700:04>
SPace is also a factor.  Each character was X words long (3000?) and in layout only got 4 pages, which had to include space for a picture.  With Rigger X, the drones/vehicles maybe should have had their own "stat block" the way weapons do.  However, at a rough guess that would have made his stat page 2 pages long.  At least.  Which means it would have completely hacked into his background and history. 

And while I'm glad stats are included...  I'm more interested in the flavor and the backgrounds of these characters than I am his list of drones.  So condensed, ugly (but still very useable) gear text block in exchange for more background wins in my book.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Sengir on <07-17-11/1723:07>
Now, I must tell you, I did not anticipate criticism for Rigger X's stat box. I thought it looked okay, and if I needed to use it, I knew I could.
If you found it perfectly readable, how come you missed even basic stuff like "Improved Takeoff and Landing 2, chameleon coating"? Good text layout also makes proofing a lot easier ;)

And the standard solution if text doesn't fit on a page is simple: Reword it and cut things like duffel bags (unless those are somehow connected to his background).
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-17-11/1843:25>
Uh huh.

So CGL can expect your resume for a layout position when?

Fucking white noise. That's all this shit is. Good, bad, or spam.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-17-11/1930:40>
I have noticed that critics are the ones that tend to have not done the things they're critiquing.

Such as people that have to go to University to learn how to watch movies or read books.  :P
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <07-17-11/1939:10>
So i figure anything I say towards anyone that has nothing but empty criticism for good products would be a waste of time and lost on them. So instead I will say this:

Good work SR staff, I have a group that play and love this game, some sense it has started. We will use street legends and it will add allot to our games.  Further we have used every published piece of 4th material and all add something to our game. Thank you for your time, and thanks for any future work.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Charybdis on <07-17-11/1952:19>
Good work SR staff, I have a group that play and love this game, some sense it has started. We will use street legends and it will add allot to our games.  Further we have used every published piece of 4th material and all add something to our game. Thank you for your time, and thanks for any future work.

This.

And +1 to you for putting it so succinctly.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Sengir on <07-17-11/2008:11>
Fucking white noise. That's all this shit is. Good, bad, or spam.
So, was reacting thin-skinned to customer criticism in public your main qualification for the PR job? Just so I know what to write in my resume...
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Digital_Viking on <07-17-11/2035:41>
Uh huh.

So CGL can expect your resume for a layout position when?

Fucking white noise. That's all this shit is. Good, bad, or spam.

Deep breaths Crimson, just another poster from Trollshock with nothing better to do. Not worth even a minor elevation in heartrate.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-17-11/2053:26>
Fucking white noise. That's all this shit is. Good, bad, or spam.
So, was reacting thin-skinned to customer criticism in public your main qualification for the PR job? Just so I know what to write in my resume...
Play nice children, last I heard, FastJack was still looking to punch someone in the junk.

...

Now, is that the FastJack in the books, or the Mod on the board here, or both?  I can never keep it straight.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Critias on <07-17-11/2227:32>
Let's ease up, everybody.  If you don't like the preview, you don't like the preview.  If you don't like someone else's post, you don't like someone else's post.  There's no need for a second Street Legends preview discussion thread to get locked.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: JM_Hardy on <07-17-11/2229:05>
Play nice children, last I heard, FastJack was still looking to punch someone in the junk.

I'm going to emphasize "play nice" in my mod voice. Crimson, regardless of how irritated you may be by criticisms, let's try to address content of people's comments rather than make broadsides. You may also choose to ignore them. Digital_Viking, we want to avoid any cross-board drama, and the term "Trollshock" is not helpful in that regards.

Let's keep it constructive.

Jason H.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: FastJack on <07-17-11/2233:00>
Watching closely. And I'm more than willing to punch someone in the junk. So, play nice kiddies (on both sides of the fence).

(Heh... ninja'd before I post - twice!)
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Digital_Viking on <07-17-11/2235:37>


I'm going to emphasize "play nice" in my mod voice. Crimson, regardless of how irritated you may be by criticisms, let's try to address content of people's comments rather than make broadsides. You may also choose to ignore them. Digital_Viking, we want to avoid any cross-board drama, and the term "Trollshock" is not helpful in that regards.

Let's keep it constructive.

Jason H.

My apologies
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-17-11/2316:04>
Let's keep it constructive.

Jason H.
Please note that word:  Constructive.  I'm fairly thin skinned (I know, a shocker!), but I take constructive criticism very well due to the fact that it makes me a better person.

Just plain criticism is not very conductive in any way, shape, or form, and demeans both the person it's targeted at, and the person who gives it out.

So, please, let's think of the children!
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Mäx on <07-18-11/0005:58>
If you found it perfectly readable, how come you missed even basic stuff like "Improved Takeoff and Landing 2, chameleon coating"?
And what exactly is wrong with those 2?
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-18-11/0248:24>
Let me just say this: When I was getting banned from DS for being a bastard to Synner and AH (I regret nothing I said to them. The only thing I do regret is a comment about Steve Kenson) In spite of all of that, Rob and Synner still had the principles to read and consider the seven-page proposal I sent to Rob (and then Synner took over). I don't know what would have happened if it was accepted since the book it was for never came to be, but I did it because it was important enough to me that I wanted to see the game line improved and that literally is the only way that can be achieved. When Critias prodded me on to propose something for Spy Games, my secondary motivation after wanting to do espionage in SR material was entirely hatred-based.

I had a ten-minute conversation with Jeff Parker that was mostly based around my writing for Shadowrun last month after he had been on a panel discussing legacy characters and projects. Just the two of us in the hall talking about him getting a stern call from John Byrne for something in X-Men First Class and how my first contribution to the discussion group was stolen and posted across that web by ... people. People have been doing this for years before I got my shot, and others will come after I'm gone. In the meanwhile, my job is to make what I write as awesome as possible for the customer (and useful in my case since it's RPG supplements). In my case that means that for a given group of gamers my product has to serve as a utility upon which they can build as much or as little of their world upon. I'm providing the electricity. You can run whatever you want or rewire your house for all I care as long as you get something of value for those kilowatts I'm pumping in.

I hate, hate, HATE the Tree of Liberty subchapter in System Failure with a burning passion. Six years later and if I didn't before I now definitely have to put up with that ... material. But I also developed, co-wrote, and edited a fucking novel from the year and a half-long campaign I ran based on that material. At no point did my raking Synner, Jong-Won Kim and God and everyone else over the coals did that happen. It happened when I realized, "Wait a second. I can do something with this without retconning or breaking anything. Hey, Critias and co. Want to play a game?" Six years later those 1,800 words still occupy a far disproportionate amount of time and mindspace than one would reasonably expect.

I'm the last person on Earth who would or is allowed to tell people not to bitch. But what has angered me reading this thread is the disappointment in how ... lacking ... criticism is. On another board there is a bitching thread, and that is what I do. I will just fire off a missive about how I have an emotional other non-legitimate (to myself) reason for hating or being pissed off about something. I don't even try to acknowledge people who try to argue about them because they are by their nature just random, stupid bitching. But that's separate from me saying Identity Crisis is the worst comic book I've ever read because it fails at every level to accomplish whatever it was supposed to—beginning and ending with being a terrible mystery. I was rude and vulgar as beyond tolerance on DS, but I tried to at least have a valid criticism of mechanics, logic, continuity, or fact.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Tycho on <07-18-11/0416:56>
So, Rigger X, suposed to be
a high-end drone rigger

is a character with about 120Karma (I was not able to get the exact value due to the nonexistence rating of his enemy)

They're better because they have an awful lot of dice to roll for most of the things they do.

ääähh, no he doesn't.

He is even lacking at the core of rigging stuff:
- no Gearhead/Jury Rigger quality
- no More the Metahuman quality
- no Commlink optimization for Command
- no costum interface 
- no simsence booster
- no simsence accelerator
- no orientation system
- no MathSPU
- no enchephalon
- none of his drones and vehicles are decently modded
- none of his drones and vehicles are upgraded to complement a riggers skills (remember he will roll all his vehicle tests with Response/Sensor rating of the drone)
- no TacNet
...


for
a high-end drone rigger
he pretty much sucks.

I have played with Riggers that are better than him, not only dicepool wise but in every aspect of a what riggers do.

So next time you try to build
a high-end drone rigger
let someone do it, that has at least a basic understanding of the rules and what is required of the character he is supposed to build...

cya
Tycho

Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: FastJack on <07-18-11/0818:05>
Some non-constructive criticism.
Consider this an official warning, Tycho. Even after we asked that you stick to constructive criticism if you need to complain, this post does not offer anything more than the previous posts. It may be your opinion that Rigger X is not built to the best character optimization that you believe he should be, but that does not mean he "sucks" as a character.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Mäx on <07-18-11/0825:26>
So next time you try to build
a high-end drone rigger
let someone do it, that has at least a basic understanding of the rules and what is required of the character he is suposed to build...
Because he's obviously supposed to be a uber min/maxed character ::)
I haven't seen any more of the book then you, but i can pretty much qurantee that none of the character will have stat lines like that(uber min/maxed), because that would be fraking idiotic.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Medicineman on <07-18-11/0852:27>
Quote
Because he's obviously supposed to be a uber min/maxed character

Well, a Char (like a Rigger) that is not using full potenzial in the Matrix ( - no simsence booster
- no simsence accelerator - no Commlink optimization for Command ) nor in real Life (- no Gearhead/Jury Rigger quality - no More the Metahuman quality ) and that doesn't use the full Potential of his Drones (- none of his drones and vehicles are decently modded - none of his drones and vehicles are upgraded to complement a riggers skills- no TacNet )
 Is far far away from being Legendary.
He appears to me like the old Battlemech.
I spent Hours and Hours improving them with the basic Rules because the basic Mech were so.....Inferior to those that could be done with the Basic Rules.
And if he is a mere 120 Karma Points Char he doesn't deserve to be called Legendary (ImO)

Hough !
Medicineman
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Sengir on <07-18-11/0923:16>
If you found it perfectly readable, how come you missed even basic stuff like "Improved Takeoff and Landing 2, chameleon coating"?
And what exactly is wrong with those 2?
Inconsistent capitalization.


PS: What's also somewhat weird about Mr. X, he's got all sorts of upgrades which apply when jumped in, yet his vehicle skills are specialized on remote control (i.e. using a Command program). While not against the rules AFAIK, I wouldn't allow a character which is specialized on something he doesn't seem to use very often.

PPS:
Because he's obviously supposed to be a uber min/maxed character ::)
Sure, a character with >150 Karma can only be a min/maxed assortment of munchkinism...
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Tycho on <07-18-11/1005:25>
Some non-constructive criticism.
Consider this an official warning, Tycho. Even after we asked that you stick to constructive criticism if you need to complain, this post does not offer anything more than the previous posts. It may be your opinion that Rigger X is not built to the best character optimization that you believe he should be, but that does not mean he "sucks" as a character.

It sure does, if he is after any means just bad in whats supposed to be his craft. And it is not my opinion, its a fact. The stats are out there for everyone to see and everybody with basic understanding of the rules can confirm, that he sucks.  ::)

Also my post is very constructive! I even listed all the things the character is missing to be
a high-end drone rigger

and offered an solution for the problem (using people that know what they are doing).  :o

cya
Tycho
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Bull on <07-18-11/1011:16>
Inconsistent capitalization.

Actually, that's done correctly, via the Style Guide we use.  I'm not certain WHY it's done that way, but basically you capitalize gear if it's a brand name (Yamaha Rapier) or if it's something with a rating (Wired Reflexes 2), otherwise it is not capitalized. 

It's a pain in the ass to keep straight, honestly, and I know as a writer and editor I'm terrible about it.  Fortunately for Missions I have a couple really anal-retentive proofers who usually catch these for me. :)

(Also, while it's never been entirely consistently used, these style guide rules predate Jason's term as developer)

Bull
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: FastJack on <07-18-11/1027:03>
Some non-constructive criticism.
Consider this an official warning, Tycho. Even after we asked that you stick to constructive criticism if you need to complain, this post does not offer anything more than the previous posts. It may be your opinion that Rigger X is not built to the best character optimization that you believe he should be, but that does not mean he "sucks" as a character.

It sure does, if he is after any means just bad in whats supposed to be his craft. And it is not my opinion, its a fact. The stats are out there for everyone to see and everybody with basic understanding of the rules can confirm, that he sucks.  ::)

Also my post is very constructive! I even listed all the things the character is missing to be
a high-end drone rigger

and offered an solution for the problem (using people that know what they are doing).  :o

cya
Tycho
Point taken, Tycho. My point is that your definition of a high-end drone rigger may not be everyone's definition. By claiming that your version is the best-possible version (whether or not it is fully optimized by the rules), comes off a kinda arrogant and disrespectful.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Medicineman on <07-18-11/1040:34>
I don't think Tychos proclaiming the Best possible Solution
He's just shown what is lacking (what he's missing) in a "High End Rigger"

comes off a kinda arrogant and disrespectful.
I think his Post is mainly from disappointment
Sometimes its minor things that "Tick You off"
(like ,for Example, the Cal .40 with a Light Pistol) sometimes its sth. bigger
(like a Rigger thats supposed to be "Legendary Stuff "turns out to be just ....mediocre)

with an explaining Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Prime Mover on <07-18-11/1041:29>
I think optimized and legendary are two different things.  Optimized to me is meta-gaming to squeeze every number out of a process and something you will see on a PC.  Which isn't wholly wrong, your character is supposed to be the center of the story after all.  Legendary is supposed to represent "real" people (NPC's).  And real people aren't optimized and npc's shouldn't be as tightly focused as a PC who's alter ego (player) can focus on the math aspects of his build.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Medicineman on <07-18-11/1044:42>
Quote
Legendary is supposed to represent "real" people (NPC's).
I thought Legendary means "Larger than Life"
how could they if a starting Char can "outshine" such a Char by being better in his Job ?

with a shining Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: DWC on <07-18-11/1051:38>
I'm sure once we can read the story sections, Rigger X's reasons for using less than the best software on the market will be revealed.

Then again, I'm just getting it for the Miles Lanier info.  He's been my favorite SR character for as long as he's existed and I'm always looking for more about him.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Makki on <07-18-11/1054:08>
I think optimized and legendary are two different things.  Optimized to me is meta-gaming to squeeze every number out of a process and something you will see on a PC.  Which isn't wholly wrong, your character is supposed to be the center of the story after all.  Legendary is supposed to represent "real" people (NPC's).  And real people aren't optimized and npc's shouldn't be as tightly focused as a PC who's alter ego (player) can focus on the math aspects of his build.
I thought the rules say  "legendary" means 500 karma?
My personal opinion is, "legendary" means you're the best at what you do, no one will ever reach your level of ability and you did all that while being the most awesome dude (or "character") anybody ever met.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Sengir on <07-18-11/1112:53>
(Also, while it's never been entirely consistently used, these style guide rules predate Jason's term as developer)
When writing my list of German extras I made some effort to be consistent with the capitalization in CGL's books, and just to be sure I just checked Arsenal, Spy Games, and the preview of This Old Drone again. It seems like you and whoever wrote RX are the only ones who got that memo, since all instances I found had the whole "Std Upgrades" enumeration capitalized ;)


Still, if that is the official ruling I have to apologize to MikeW in this regard.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: hobgoblin on <07-18-11/1115:29>
My impression is that Street Legends contain people that are talked about in the shadows because of some piece of rep or similar, not because of in-game numbers being uber.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: JM_Hardy on <07-18-11/1207:55>
My impression is that Street Legends contain people that are talked about in the shadows because of some piece of rep or similar, not because of in-game numbers being uber.

This is correct. From the introduction, which was part of the preview:

Quote from: Street Legends intro
This isn’t an exhaustive collection of the most interesting people in the Sixth World, or a listing of the people who are at the top of their respective fields. This is a collection of individuals who, for better or for worse, get people talking.

Jason H.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Medicineman on <07-18-11/1225:55>
and how do these Individuals get people talking when They're ....just average ?
 

with an average Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Digital_Viking on <07-18-11/1227:26>
and how do these Individuals get people talking when They're ....just average ?
 

with an average Dance
Medicineman
Great PR
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Grinder on <07-18-11/1239:13>
Probably done by Horizon.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: JM_Hardy on <07-18-11/1246:28>
and how do these Individuals get people talking when They're ....just average ?
 

with an average Dance
Medicineman

Possibly with intangible things that are discussed in the write-up. Also, while Rigger X is not the most powerful character in the book, he has a nice Reaction and Logic, and he has a lot of gear. He may not be exceptional when compared to other groups of experienced riggers, but when compared to the general run of humanity, he's more than average.

Jason H.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Neurosis on <07-18-11/1304:40>
Hello, for full disclosure I wrote the Rigger X stat block. As freelancers go, I'm pretty green. So I've been sitting here for quite some time typing and then promptly deleting a variety of different wall of text posts while trying to decide how to respond. Let's start small...

I am mostly interested in engaging this issue on a crunch/rules level. I don't intend to make defenses like 'the character wasn't supposed to be optimized' or 'do better yourself'. I've been reading the rules very carefully before making any responses, because I believe that while I may have made some rules errors, my critics are misinterpreting the rules in some ways as well. 

PS: What's also somewhat weird about Mr. X, he's got all sorts of upgrades which apply when jumped in, yet his vehicle skills are specialized on remote control (i.e. using a Command program). While not against the rules AFAIK, I wouldn't allow a character which is specialized on something he doesn't seem to use very often.

This strikes me as a significantly narrow interpretation of what the "Remote Operation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_operation)" specialization means. You are interpreting it to mean 'when using the Remote Control option for drone rigging as opposed to the Jumped-In or Issuing Commands option'. I interpret it to mean 'whenever not physically present'. As usual, SR4A provides no help--the limits and boundaries of specializations remain unexplained--so empirically speaking, either interpretation is valid. I am not aware of any page reference where it specifies what 'Remote Operation' does or does not mean.

Note that I specifically mean the keyword 'Remote Operation'--not 'Remote Control'--which are two different phrases, which I take to be significant. 'Remote Control' is the proper name of one of the three methods of controlling drones. 'Remote Operation' seems to me to be a catch-all term that could be used whenever a rigger was not physically present in a vehicle they were piloting.

Now, I realize that according to this interpretation that I used, 'Remote Operation' is a very powerful specialization. But then again, that wouldn't be entirely inconsistent with SR4A...skill specializations that can be overpowered based on GM interpretation. An excellent example is the 'Automatics' specialization of Pistols, which covers something like 80% of Pistols (including all the best ones) which is clearly better than the more limited 'Revolvers' or 'Hold-Outs' specialization. Another good example is the 'Martial Arts' specialization of Unarmed Combat, which depending on how lenient your GM is, you could rule to apply ALL THE TIME.

So to summarize and repeat my point...we are using two different definitions of what the undefined 'Remote Operation' specialization means. You are assuming that 'Remote Operation' = 'Remote Control', and I am not.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: hobgoblin on <07-18-11/1308:05>
and how do these Individuals get people talking when They're ....just average ?
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Chinese_whispers
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Sengir on <07-18-11/1434:02>
My impression is that Street Legends contain people that are talked about in the shadows because of some piece of rep or similar, not because of in-game numbers being uber.
Reputation is also based on earned Karma. Friends with significant influence are represented by contacts with a high Connection rating. Ooops.

Furthermore, with these stats it's tough to defend the presence of Rigger X on Jackpoint. The principle of Jackpoint is an invitation-only network for people who can contribute significant info. What can he contribute, besides some tidbits on MCT's security an average face could easily talk out of a corpsec at a bar?
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: John Schmidt on <07-18-11/1436:22>
From my perspective as a GM, it goes something like this...

Street Legends are more than the accumulation of numbers and resources on a sheet. These are the mover's and shakers because they think outside of the box. Their tactical awareness is more than how many people make up the opposition. When somebody throws a CS grenade in a hallway they activate the fire sprinklers to reduce the effectiveness of the gas. They know what chemicals to look for in a cleaning closet to make an distraction and so forth.

At the other end of the spectrum are runners who think that everything can be solved with bullets and plastic explosives. They have the same level of finesse as a F5 tornado. These guys are legendary for the collateral damage and body counts that they rack up.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Makki on <07-18-11/1443:39>
Street Legends are more than the accumulation of numbers and resources on a sheet. These are the mover's and shakers because they think outside of the box.
and nobody disagrees with that, but despite being "more than just numbers", there should be numbers to back up their description. A Street Legend should have good numbers + awesomeness, while a normal runner just has numbers.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: FastJack on <07-18-11/1454:03>
Oh look! Rules!

Quote from: SR4A, p. 265
Street Cred
     Street Cred represents a character’s lifetime accomplishments in the shadows. The longer she’s been around, the more he’s done and seen, the more respect she’ll get from her peers.
     Street Cred is based on a character’s total earned Karma (see Karma, p. 269), divided by 10 and rounded normally. A character who has earned 35 Karma in the course of a game will have a Street Cred of 4 (35 ÷ 10 = 3.5, rounded up to 4).
     At the gamemaster’s discretion, additional points may be added to a character’s Street Cred for any epic adventures, stunning victories, unbelievable escapes, or similar eyebrow-raising accomplishments.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Sengir on <07-18-11/1503:49>
additional [əˈdɪʃənəl]
adj
 added or supplementary

Not "all of it".
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: FastJack on <07-18-11/1510:08>
additional [əˈdɪʃənəl]
adj
 added or supplementary

Not "all of it".
Well, since adding 1 point to Street Cred is the equivalent of 10 Karma (without them getting Karma), I'd say that's a pretty big deal. If you're judging "Legendary" as 900+ Karma, and Rigger X has enough "epic" adventures that a DM had awarded him 5 Street Cred without the Karma, then we're looking at a Legendary character with only 400+ karma.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Tycho on <07-18-11/1516:09>
additional [əˈdɪʃənəl]
adj
 added or supplementary

Not "all of it".
Well, since adding 1 point to Street Cred is the equivalent of 10 Karma (without them getting Karma), I'd say that's a pretty big deal. If you're judging "Legendary" as 900+ Karma, and Rigger X has enough "epic" adventures that a DM had awarded him 5 Street Cred without the Karma, then we're looking at a Legendary character with only 400+ karma.
as I already pointed out: Rigger X has about 120Karma...

Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: DWC on <07-18-11/1522:01>
Oh look! Rules!

Quote from: SR4A, p. 265
Street Cred
     Street Cred represents a character’s lifetime accomplishments in the shadows. The longer she’s been around, the more he’s done and seen, the more respect she’ll get from her peers.
     Street Cred is based on a character’s total earned Karma (see Karma, p. 269), divided by 10 and rounded normally. A character who has earned 35 Karma in the course of a game will have a Street Cred of 4 (35 ÷ 10 = 3.5, rounded up to 4).
     At the gamemaster’s discretion, additional points may be added to a character’s Street Cred for any epic adventures, stunning victories, unbelievable escapes, or similar eyebrow-raising accomplishments.

What it boils down to is this.  He's awesome because the author said he's awesome.  He's certainly not competent enough for his Legendary Status to be legit, so he must exist to be the reminder that not every legend is based on any substance.

He doesn't have the skills to be the Jack of All Trades who always has a way out of a sticky situation.  He doesn't have the Willpower to be the guy with the herculean tenacity who's unflappable under pressure.  He's not even a good enough liar to have fabricated his own rep.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: FastJack on <07-18-11/1533:53>
Well there was that time that he had snuck into the local bureau office of Saeder-Krupp on an innocent little snatch and grab and found himself face to face with Lofwyr. How he managed to distract the Dragon with just a couple of microdrones, no one knows and he's not telling.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Sengir on <07-18-11/1534:20>
Well, since adding 1 point to Street Cred is the equivalent of 10 Karma (without them getting Karma), I'd say that's a pretty big deal.
No contest here. But to get that point the character has to pull of an epic stunt, which should result in an according Karma reward, too.

"Legendary" is now officially defined as 500 Karma, meaning at least 50 Street Cred. Rigger X has ~150 Karma (->15 Cred), so he would have needed to earn 35 Cred "on the side". Thirty-Five "eyebrow-raising accomplishments" and the character has only earned <150 Karma? I'd read my GM the riot act ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Critias on <07-18-11/1543:58>
Legendary for PCs is described as 500 karma.  Legendary for NPCs isn't, it's just described as "being in this book," basically.  The movers and shakers in Shadowrun, the folks with the high rep?  Some of them are Lofwyr, or Lugh Surehand, or Martin DeVries.  Some of them are powerhouses, and their stats reflect that. 

Some of them, on the other hand, are just folks who were in the right place at the right time, and have built a rep for themselves by being recognizable names -- the NPCs who chatter with one another about new gear, spread rumors about upcoming jobs, and upload data files to Jackpoint for the rest of them to pick at like vultures.  If you're a recognizable, memorable, Shadowrun NPC, you had a shot at being in Street Legends.  Maybe you were in a couple novels (Kellan Colt), maybe you're a regular Jackpointer, maybe you're a long-time lurker like Bull who's been used as an NPC a few times before...there's no "500 karma" requirement to be an NPC in Street Legends and get the (optional) rule that lets the campaign kick in the cinematic rules.  Their version of the rule is there to reflect that a household name is on the scene, and everyone in the game suddenly kicks it up a notch.

As a wholly separate entity from that rule, there is a "Legendary" Quality that PCs can buy.  This Quality comes with karma requirements (and GM's consent, again), and allows that single PC and only that single PC to score a hit on a 4+ instead of a 5+.

People keep crossing the wires of those two rules, and I really rather wish they'd stop.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Neurosis on <07-18-11/1547:38>
(Excuse the weird ass spacing in this post. The forums are kind of bugging out on me.)

I think there's just sort of a fundamental disagreement here on what inclusion in 'Street Legends' means. For Rigger X, the bar I was aiming
for was a character who was slightly more competent all around than most PCs, and certainly more competent than any starting PC...but I
wasn't accounting for hardcore character optimization enough, clearly. The bar that was aimed for for say, Lugh Surehand, was very different.
(Even though Lugh has stats, I'm reasonably certain you can't kill him, short of tactical nuclear weapons and/or an extraordinarily lenient GM.)

I still don't think Rigger X 's stats are anywhere near as bad as they're being made out to be. But of course, that's only based on my own
years and years of experience playing and GMing Shadowrun, since I haven't put in the time on character optimization threads on
Dumpshock. I do think there was one crucial rules error I may have made which results in the character being underpowered in some fields. I'd like to
correct this with some unofficial errata, unless Jason has reasons for being opposed to that. I'm surprised no one else caught it during
proofreading, but ultimately it's my bad and I've got to take responsibility.

In any case, it would take a lot of retroactive calculation to arrive at how much karma Rigger X was built with. I (foolishly) erased the karma
and BP and nuyen numbers I was tracking when I finalized the character. I don't think, at a glance, that the 120/150 Karma figure being
tossed around is accurate. 

Quote
If gamemasters wish to apply these rules in a more systematic fashion, characters who have achieved 500 Karma can spend 100
Karma to obtain Legendary status, which means they roll successes on 4s, 5s, and 6s.

I read this as an optional clause..."If gamemasters wish...". Not as a hard and fast rule that all legends have earned at least 500 Karma (they haven't).

I know that my understanding of the 'Legendary' rule was that when a Legend was involved in a scene, EVERYONE would get successes on 4+, including most
importantly and especially the Player Characters.  This to me was the essence of the rule--that it makes PCs more awesome.

Additionally, let's not forget that the entire thing is a completely optional rule. I would use it in my game--you don't have to.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Makki on <07-18-11/1601:16>
Legendary for PCs is described as 500 karma.  Legendary for NPCs isn't, it's just described as "being in this book," basically.  The movers and shakers in Shadowrun, the folks with the high rep?  Some of them are Lofwyr, or Lugh Surehand, or Martin DeVries.  Some of them are powerhouses, and their stats reflect that. 

well well, this contradicts the golden rule "same set of rules for PCs and PCs. What I throw at the GM, he can throw at me and vice versa"
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Critias on <07-18-11/1615:50>
Legendary for PCs is described as 500 karma.  Legendary for NPCs isn't, it's just described as "being in this book," basically.  The movers and shakers in Shadowrun, the folks with the high rep?  Some of them are Lofwyr, or Lugh Surehand, or Martin DeVries.  Some of them are powerhouses, and their stats reflect that. 

well well, this contradicts the golden rule "same set of rules for PCs and PCs. What I throw at the GM, he can throw at me and vice versa"
One of them (that is hung on NPCs) affects entire campaigns.  It is there, tied to the cinematic campaign rules (from the core book), as a suggestion of a way to temporarily make a campaign more over-the-top and action-packed, playing RED instead of The Bourne Identity, but suddenly cranking an entire campaign up to 11.  The rule exists in order to give the PCs a boost, because the PCs are the heart and soul of any campaign, and as such the entire game of Shadowrun.

The other version, which a PC can buy, affects just that one PC.  It is there to let a single PC suddenly turn himself into a too-cool-for-school powerhouse, who makes his way through life succeeding where others might fail.  He is no longer merely a 500-karma badass, he now has it.  He is Achilles, not Hector.  He does not merely accomplish the incredible, he does so while making it look easy.  This rule exists in order to give PCs a boost, because PCs are the heart and soul of any campaign, and as such the entire game of Shadowrun.

Do you see what the two rules have in common?  They are being introduced in the Big Fat Book of Awesome NPCs, but they are not only for those NPCs.  We wanted a way to show that some of these NPCs are tremendously badass, but to also have that tremendous badassery -- and the importance to the metaplot, and the glamour of fame or infamy -- rub off on PCs.  Rather than only give NPCs a power boost (letting them ignore core rules like skill caps or stat caps, letting them and only them hit on a 4+ instead of a 5+, giving them and only them permanent exploding 6's, and several other ideas that were initially bandied about), we decided on these sets of rules.  These sets of optional rules, that are clearly stated as being such.

On the one hand, the first rule lets some of these over-the-top NPCs come off as over-the-top.  But on the other -- and this is the important bit, to me -- it does the same for your PCs.  The second rule is a way for a PC to hit "epic level" or whatever you want to call it, as a means of standardizing a karmic requirement and offering a concrete way to make someone that's probably so badass they should be retired, but who is so badass he won't let retirement take him out of the game;  for GMs and players that are interested in that sort of top-tier, high powered, campaign, now they've got a rule that lets them do it.

So, in my opinion, this doesn't break that "golden" rule of yours.  It provides two separate rules;  one that affects entire campaigns (and as such NPCs and PCs alike), and one that's aimed primarily at PCs (but which an enterprising GM could purchase for an NPC, if he really wanted to, and if he was keeping track of karma, etc, while powering up and building that NPC).

Not everyone is going to be crazy about these rules, and that's totally fine.  That's why they're both optional.  But I like them -- I kind of have to, since they were largely my idea -- because it's a way to give these "legends" something (besides just high stats or lots of gear or whatever) that can explain how they do some of the difficult things they do, and it's a way to give the same benefit to PCs, because fuck NPCs anyways the PCs are the ones that make Shadowrun a game.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Neurosis on <07-18-11/1638:57>
Okay, I just did some work on Rigger X based on some of the criticism given here. Unfortunately, it is much too late for inclusion in the first printing and much too
soon for official errata so...really, really awkward timing.

Pertaining specifically to Rigger X, some valid points were made by the critics but I do wish they had not been quite so harsh.

Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Sengir on <07-18-11/1642:50>
Legendary for PCs is described as 500 karma.
Which means they have a Street Cred of 50, plus whatever bonuses they got for superior achievements. If an NPC wants to draw level with that, he needs the same Street Cred.

Quote
the NPCs who chatter with one another about new gear
That requires knowledge skills.

Quote
spread rumors about upcoming jobs
That requires connections.

Quote
and upload data files to Jackpoint for the rest of them to pick at like vultures
That requires some skills to "liberate" that data.

The big catch of SL was supposed to be that everything has stats, even the dragons. Catalyst consciously made the decision to make the characters in Street Legends quantifiable in the context of Shadowrun's game rules, which includes the rules for fame, skill, luck, and influence. Rigger X has been measured in these areas and found wanting - and the reaction is "oh well, screw the rules. They are great because we say so".

Excuse me, but what the fuck is the point of printing the bloody stats then? You print the stats, and then tell us to ignore them once the inevitable happens?
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Neurosis on <07-18-11/1650:34>
Quote
The big catch of SL was supposed to be that everything has stats, even the dragons. Catalyst consciously made the decision to make the characters in Street Legends quantifiable in the context of Shadowrun's game rules, which includes the rules for fame, skill, luck, and influence. Rigger X has been measured in these areas and found wanting - and the reaction is "oh well, screw the rules. They are great because we say so".
Excuse me, but what the fuck is the point of printing the bloody stats then? You print the stats, and then tell us to ignore them once the inevitable happens?

Sengir I don't know if you're behind some kind of wall where you can't see my posts, but at least for this freelancer that's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying is yes, I goofed (it was not that big of a deal, and the degree of ad hominem attacks in response was pretty damn unnecessary) in some ways
on Rigger X's stats. I immediately opened up my revised document and fixed the errors that I had made...although I can't do anything with the unofficial
'errata' I've just created in this awkward stage in the game.

FTR, I am definitely not saying that stats don't matter or to ignore stats. I don't actually think anyone else is saying that either.

Edit: Fuck this forum software right now at this very moment, fuck it right in its ear.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Critias on <07-18-11/1658:30>
Two points: 
Quote
Which means they have a Street Cred of 50, plus whatever bonuses they got for superior achievements. If an NPC wants to draw level with that, he needs the same Street Cred.
1)  You continue to -- purposefully or otherwise -- get the PC and NPC rules mixed up.  Please don't.  They are two separate things.  I cannot fathom how better I can say this, how much more clearly I can say this, or how many different ways I can say this.

The "legends" in this book do not all, by default, have the "Legendary Quality" that lets them score hits on a 4+.  What they do have is an optional rule that, simply by virtue of being in the book, lets the entire campaign score hits on a 4+.  They are two different rules.  There is no direct correlation between the two.  The requirement that you have 500 karma in order to purchase the personal "Legendary Quality" does not apply to the general campaign suggestion that grants entire games a similar rule. 

"If an NPC wants to draw level with that," as such, is a moot point.  The NPCs in the book don't have to draw level with that, because you are discussing a different rule.

2)  You seem to have made up your mind about this book (and everyone who worked on it, regardless of what they worked on) based on the preview, and what's more upon a single page of the preview (Rigger X's stats in particular).  That's your prerogative, and you're welcome to your opinion, but I'm tired of sitting here bickering with you about it.  If you buy the book I hope it changes your mind, if you don't choose to buy the book, more power to you, that's a consumer's right.

But you make it very, very, hard to have a civil discussion.  We get it.  You don't like Rigger X's stats.  The guy that wrote Rigger X's stats is standing right here trying to have a discussion with you about those stats, and you're ignoring him in order to belabor the point and belittle his work while talking to me instead of him.  If you're out to be productive in your criticism, why not shoot him a PM and make a few polite suggestions?  If you're not out to be productive in your criticism, maybe you could still at least pay attention to repeated moderator requests here in this thread, and watch your tone?
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <07-18-11/1704:25>
I would like to add a positive thought to this. Why not start a thread tittled: “Unofficial Street legends” Post your own take on PC's skill sets and stats. Add something to the game that you seem to say is lacking. Make your own street legends and write up a great back story so other GM's and players can draw on your talents. 

Why create an environment that adds nothing to this game. You must come here because you care for it, write for it, buy the products at some point. Yet not one person has thanked the writer for jumping on here and explaining his stance, working with people so they have a better feel for this product.

I see the pride and hard work the writers are putting into their work, on each project we get more and more response, so what we see as "wrong" they work to share an understanding.

Now I know I am not a brilliant spark in humanity, I am wounded retired soldier that has found this game and his group as a way to begin to socialize again. Before last October I spent two and half years running from being in public, spending time with my son, my wife and having four surgeries. What I lack in smarts i make up for in passion though, I love this game. I love the products they put out. Everything in this world has flaws; it is these flaws that allow me to enjoy life so much.
Please add to this game, try not to take away someone else’s passion for it!

Last note: Thank you Neurosis for your work, and thanks for trying to share an understanding of this work to us.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Neurosis on <07-18-11/1707:54>
Thank you, Frankie, for everything. : )
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Sengir on <07-18-11/1714:42>
Okay, I just did some work on Rigger X based on some of the criticism given here. Unfortunately, it is much too late for inclusion in the first printing and much too
soon for official errata so...really, really awkward timing.

Pertaining specifically to Rigger X, some valid points were made by the critics but I do wish they had not been quite so harsh.
Just to be clear, it's the concept of the book I blame, not you personally. Call me prejudiced, but the second I read the announcement I knew SL would become an example of why you shouldn't stat plot devices. It's been tried over and over again, and the result has always been the same, no matter how much blood and sweat went into it.

So while I applaud your decision to make improvements, I fear it will still only make the character good in the concept of the book. Then again, a few ready-made NPCs are always useful :)

PS: Just saw I missed your initial post in this thread:
Now, I realize that according to this interpretation that I used, 'Remote Operation' is a very powerful specialization. But then again, that wouldn't be entirely inconsistent with SR4A...skill specializations that can be overpowered based on GM interpretation. An excellent example is the 'Automatics' specialization of Pistols, which covers something like 80% of Pistols (including all the best ones) which is clearly better than the more limited 'Revolvers' or 'Hold-Outs' specialization. Another good example is the 'Martial Arts' specialization of Unarmed Combat, which depending on how lenient your GM is, you could rule to apply ALL THE TIME.

So to summarize and repeat my point...we are using two different definitions of what the undefined 'Remote Operation' specialization means. You are assuming that 'Remote Operation' = 'Remote Control', and I am not.
Very broad specializations like Software (Threading) for TMs are fine with me. But I wouldn't allow a character to use the same specialization for two things which are as different as remote control and jumping in are, no matter how clever it's worded ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: hobgoblin on <07-18-11/1730:08>
this have gone into pissing match territory, have fun cleaning up...
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Neurosis on <07-18-11/1734:24>
@Sengir:

But at least you have to agree it's open to interpretation! 'Remote Operation', I mean. Anyway, that is a perfect discussion for Dumpshock some rainy day. : )

Anyway, the thing is...Rigger X isn't meant to be a GD plot device in my mind. He's just a (highly competent runner). He shouldn't be an unkillable force of nature.  That's Lofwyr you're thinking of.  Assigning stats to Lofwyr is...no comment. At worse, though, I mean it's a fun exercise in number crunching.

That said, is this attached version of Rigger X  'better' in your opinion? I wanted to stay true to my initial build somewhat, so I did not add 'Gearhead' or '’More Than Metahuman' or load him up with overpowered delta grade cyberware (that money is pretty obviously tied up in vehicles) but I did fix the issue with  his pool for jumped in actions being poor because so many of his drones had Response and Sensor ratings of 2 and 3.  I also put some more points into general  purpose skills, especially knowledge skills. I wish I could just stick this into the layout of Street Legends as it goes to the printers, but alas it doesn't work that  way in the publishing business.  (I'm far too used to making home brew things that I am the sole controller of.) Oh, I've departed from the standard CGL style  guide with this so it may be slightly more readable. I don't think gear list formats will be a big problem for any other character in the book, since most other characters don't have eleventeen billion customized vehicles.

Oh, btw, on my latest revision I had actually capitalized Chameleon Coating so that must have gotten changed at the layout stage, after it was out of my hands (/me passes the buck).

After the quick revisions I did, Rigger X's piloting dice pools for ground and air craft would now be:

Jumped In Hot Sim Maneuvering: 17 (19)
Jumped In Hot Sim Shooting:  15
Jumped In Hot Sim Perception: 15

Remote Control Maneuvering: 12 (14)
Remote Control Shooting: 12
Remote Control Perception: 12

I don't think those dice pools are anything to sneeze at. Those maneuvering numbers are assuming a Handling 0 vehicle. 

If you were the GM, it'd be your call whether or not to apply the 'Remote Operation' bonus to Jumped In, so I've put it in parentheses in both lists.

Sorry for this long ass tangent about Rigger X's stats--I know that's not the *real* problem you have with the book. But I do take umbrage when people say I don't know anything about the Shadowrun rules. Shadowrun is kind of my life, and kind of has been for the past 15 years or so.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Sengir on <07-18-11/1736:59>
"If an NPC wants to draw level with that," as such, is a moot point.  The NPCs in the book don't have to draw level with that, because you are discussing a different rule.
OK, once more:
1.) A character can become a Legend if he has achieved at least 500 Karma. I don't care about the bonuses this gives, just about the fact that a character is officially a "legend" at this point
2.) Based on the 500 Karma requirement, a character who is considered "legendary" has a Street Cred of at least 50.
3.) Therefore, an NPC who is considered legendary for any reason needs similar Street Cred to draw level. If player legends have at least 50 Cred, you can't define somebody with 10 Cred (NPC or not) to be equally legendary, just like you can't define somebody with Bod 1 to be just a tough as somebody with Bod 12. If two characters play in the same system, they are measured by the same yardstick.


@Frankie: So, what do you think about Plan 9 from Outer Space? I hope nothing bad, because you should rather direct a better movie than criticize it ;)
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Critias on <07-18-11/1741:42>
"If an NPC wants to draw level with that," as such, is a moot point.  The NPCs in the book don't have to draw level with that, because you are discussing a different rule.
OK, once more:
1.) A character can become a Legend if he has achieved at least 500 Karma. I don't care about the bonuses this gives, just about the fact that a character is officially a "legend" at this point
2.) Based on the 500 Karma requirement, a character who is considered "legendary" has a Street Cred of at least 50.
3.) Therefore, an NPC who is considered legendary for any reason needs similar Street Cred to draw level. If player legends have at least 50 Cred, you can't define somebody with 10 Cred (NPC or not) to be equally legendary, just like you can't define somebody with Bod 1 to be just a tough as somebody with Bod 12. If two characters play in the same system, they are measured by the same yardstick.
You're a bright guy, so I can only assume you're stubbornly ignoring what I'm actually saying, at this point, instead of still genuinely misunderstanding it.  The two rules you are mish-mashing together are two different rules.  They mean two different things.  They are only tangentially related to one another, and yet you are, flying in the face of repeated discussion, equating them.  You are incorrect to do so.  I can't say this any more clearly.  You are looking at two different optional rules, smashing them together into a single definition of a single rule, and then judging the entirety of a book based upon your completely imaginary definition of these two, separate, completely optional rules...and continuing to derail the thread in the process. 

Please stop.  Until you stop conflating these two rules (in order to use them as an inaccurate measuring stick, in order to further complain about the one character that's visible so far from Street Legends), you're really not worth talking with on this subject.  I can't think of any other way to describe these rules in order to clarify them further, but you seem unwilling to acknowledge that your understanding of them is lacking.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Bull on <07-18-11/1751:48>
As a note, I (re)built Bull the Ork Decker using the SR4A Build Point, and then Karma system.  He was a 700+ karma SR2/3 character, originally, and karma stretched a LOT further in those days.  But for the write ups, I left off a lot of his secondary and tertiary skills (A lot of his piloting skills, for example, as he'd branched into rigging at some point).  I also didn't include contacts (He's got a couple pages of contacts in my old Character notebook I ended up using for him).  I also toned down some of his non-key stats and secondary skills.  And he still ended up at 750ish Karma, give or take.

Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Neurosis on <07-18-11/1752:19>
Quote
1.) A character can become a Legend if he has achieved at least 500 Karma. I don't care about the bonuses this gives, just about the fact that a character
is officially a "legend" at this point

If you don't care about the crunchy effects of the 'Legendary' status, why do you care at all about the crunchy requirements? This is very confusing to me.

Let's pretend these are two different qualities. Legend A, and Legend B. Both completely optional.

Legend A applies only to the NPCs in this book. Those NPCs cause EVERYONE AROUND THEM to be more awesome. This doesn't cost any Karma or have any
prerequisite besides inclusion in the book. Which is good, because it DOES NOT ACTUALLY HELP YOU AT ALL.

Legend B has a prerequisite of having 500 Karma, and a cost of spending 100 Karma. Which is good, because it actually is a huge boon to YOU AND YOU ALONE
once attained.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Tycho on <07-18-11/1821:58>
Excuse me, but what the fuck is the point of printing the bloody stats then? You print the stats, and then tell us to ignore them once the inevitable happens?

I am with Sengir on this one and all the lame excuses are getting on my nerves.

Rigger X is supposed to be a high-end drone rigger. In the shadowtalker list he is listed as a Space Scavenger but since he has no Pilot Aerospace skill I assume this was ignored.
The NSCs is legendary because they're better because they have an awful lot of dice to roll for most of the things they do.

So it turns out that the stats of Rigger X are not close to what they are supposed to represent and all I get are excuses about

- optimized and legendary are two different things (they sure are, I don't need optimized chars, but they sure should look the part...)
- Street Legends contain people that are talked about in the shadows because of some piece of rep (which they got by looking pretty?)
- Street Legends are more than the accumulation of numbers and resources on a sheet (sure, but they should have the number and res to back up their legend status)
- Legendary for NPCs, it's just described as "being in this book" ( :o ) 

This is my personal favorite!  :P
... but when compared to the general run of humanity, he's more than average.

compared with the rest of humanity every rigger's rigging skills are above average! This is just a dumb statement. Everyone is more than average in his field compared to all of humanity...  :o

You seem to have made up your mind about this book (and everyone who worked on it, regardless of what they worked on) based on the preview, and what's more upon a single page of the preview (Rigger X's stats in particular).

Last time I checked a preview was exactly for that, representing the whole book to a potential costumer  ::)

@Neurosis: I really respect that you consider making mistakes and trying to fix them instead of giving excuses why the stats are fine. My critic is not against you personally. I know building a rigger is not an easy task and I guess it was a poor choice for the preview (but I don't expect the other stats to be much better). They are the only stats we have and so you are now taking the heat.

Errata Version:
This is better, I still would add Simsense booster or accelerator and More then Metahuman and some stuff like TacNet for the drones.

Your pools are right, you could get 2 more dice out of the remote control if you are in hot sim VR. Before your errata most of these pools would be 4-6 dice short and then you are more or less in "I am the Hacker, but I have some drones"-territory.  ;)

cya
Tycho
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Sengir on <07-18-11/1826:20>
@Sengir:

But at least you have to agree it's open to interpretation! 'Remote Operation', I mean. Anyway, that is a perfect discussion for Dumpshock some rainy day. : )
Of course it is, GM fiat is always subjective ;)

Quote
Anyway, the thing is...Rigger X isn't meant to be a GD plot device in my mind. He's just a (highly competent runner). He shouldn't be an unkillable force of nature.  That's Lofwyr you're thinking of.  Assigning stats to Lofwyr is...no comment. At worse, though, I mean it's a fun exercise in number crunching.
See, that's the problem I have with this kind of book: You don't want the legend to be an almighty god with his flaming sword, because that would just make him a more elaborate way of saying "rocks fall, you die". But if you give the legend sensible stats, the players will consider him just another runner (if allied), or just another goon leader (if opponent).


Ignoring game stats, IMO the most important thing would simply be something "special". Uncommon skills (I'm thinking of that mage from Prime Runners who bargains with spirits), prized knowledge, mighty people at his beck and call...
For example, a view at the Shadowtalker list yields for Mr. X: "Rigger, Space Scavenger Asian. Ex-MCT company rigger. Skilled in electronic spycraft. Permits no opposition to survive." Space and spycraft, eh? How about the ability to get some satellite surveillance? A long history of providing inside scoops on new drone developments and the tendency to field-test his newly "acquired" prototypes on his poor opponents? Contacts to spy agencies?

That said, the updated crunch is certainly better, especially since he finally got upgrades on his drones ;)

Quote
But I do take umbrage when people say I don't know anything about the Shadowrun rules.
That was NOT me.


Quote
1.) A character can become a Legend if he has achieved at least 500 Karma. I don't care about the bonuses this gives, just about the fact that a character
is officially a "legend" at this point

If you don't care about the crunchy effects of the 'Legendary' status, why do you care at all about the crunchy requirements? This is very confusing to me.
Because my interest what not what a legend DOES. I am merely extrapolating what MAKES a legend, or if you will how legendary a legend is.
And the answer is quite clear, a legend has a street cred of at least 50 because he has at least 500 Karma.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <07-18-11/1843:30>
Sengir: sorry I do not know what you’re talking about? Are those movies? Off topic though, so please PM about what they are about and if I should watch them? I see about a movie a week though with my amazing wife, so if it is good we will add it to our list and I may watch it in about a years’ time. We still have not been able to catch up and watch all the Shrek movies (saw one) yet :(

For street legends is there anything you like about the preview so far?

I think it is fitting that the invited Lothan to the "invited guest" list. Seeing the Cyber arm on Cayman makes my visual on Cyber arms that much better. And his Art rocks

Was kind of sad that they did not (as far as I can tell) add anyone from the spells and chrome novel though (Black mamba, Dirk, or Deke would have been my top three).

Have a great day though

O and thanks for the Errata you put together....it is something our group is using (especially the suites)

Stat lines for all types of NPC's are awesome for me, I am a junky for this sort of thing ever sense I got hall of hero’s back in mid-1990's (it was out before that but I had just really picked up gaming in high school"). For my own life this is probably the best type of product for me...and have set aside money for it sense I learned of its release.  I know SR is waiting for the book to come out near the end of the month...but I still check (sometimes hourly) when it is up on their site.  But I am a number's crunching person so what's not to love about these products.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Critias on <07-18-11/1858:43>
@Neurosis: I really respect that you consider making mistakes and trying to fix them instead of giving excuses why the stats are fine. My critic is not against you personally. I know building a rigger is not an easy task and I guess it was a poor choice for the preview (but I don't expect the other stats to be much better). They are the only stats we have and so you are now taking the heat.
As the guy that wrote the stats, he's the only one that should step up and call them a mistake.  I'll say I didn't like aspects of War!, for instance, but since I wasn't involved in it, it's not my place to call it a pile of crap or something like some fans seem to want us to. 

As writers, it's only our place to apologize for the things we are directly responsible for, period.  When discussing the work of our peers, instead of our own, it's a matter of professionalism to not call their work a "mistake."  You can respect him for "admitting" that, or whatever you want to do, but kindly don't belittle the rest of us for not bad-mouthing the material written by a coworker.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: CanRay on <07-18-11/1901:26>
Oh $Deity, people, the book isn't even out yet and we're on page 12 and a stern warning into the thread.

I'd just like to point that out...
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Neurosis on <07-18-11/1906:32>
Laziness Warning: This post contains multiple unsourced quotes. Scrolling up for half a second, you'll be able to tell who said what, tho.

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compared with the rest of humanity every rigger's rigging skills are above average! This is just a dumb statement. Everyone is more than average in his
field compared to all of humanity...  :o

Before errata, Rigger X on his bike with no matrix help has a dice pool of ~14, 15 if he happens to be on beta meth which is really not bad. His infiltration, social, and combat skills likewise were pretty respectable, and even if each individual drone was a bit shitty, he did have the ability to field quite a surveillance network, even if he'd have to rely on other methods than TacNet to convey the SIGINT received this way to his team.

I definitely agree that I messed up some of the stats specifically the drone upgrades--I was making the fallacious assumption that dice pools for jumped-in drones are based on the COMMLINK'S response--but even pre-"errata" (how I wish the errata could actually go in the book as it gets printed) Rigger X was a pretty  exceptional guy. Even the original version I think came out a bit better than any of the sample characters, which is kind of more a fair comparison for him than, say, the 50+ dice Pornomancer.  : )

Even so, Rigger X actually in the book version is maneuvering his drones in remote control on a dice pool of 13, which is, in the games I've played in competitive, particularly if you consider that he has the breadth to pilot practically every type of vehicle in existence. At the tables I play at, a dice pool of 12 is considered 'very good' and anything much higher than that (say 18+) is the realm of twinkage.  But I respect that everyone's table is different and some people are more into the MOAR DICE side of things, which is fine, I can dig it.

(5 (Command) + 2 (Hot Sim) + 4 (Pilot Aircraft) + 2 (Remote Operation Specialization) is how I arrived at the above number of 13, btw. 13 might not be rocking any one's socks off, but it's not exactly shitty either! I do admit I made mistakes, as I addressed in the errata. Errata'd version is way better, once again I wish it'd be in the final book. But if wishes were Nuyen....

(By the way, although I join Sengir and Tycho in caring a LOT about the numbers side, I hope people do enjoy the textual portion of the Rigger X chapter when it comes out. )

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@Neurosis: I really respect that you consider making mistakes and trying to fix them instead of giving excuses why the stats are fine. My critic is not against you personally. I know building a rigger is not an easy task and I guess it was a poor choice for the preview (but I don't expect the other stats to be much better). They are the only stats we have and so you are now taking the heat.

Thank you. It's fair that I'm taking the heat, although keep in mind I can't be held responsible for 'all that is wrong with shadowrun'.

The other stats in the book are much much better than Rigger X. Particularly the ones that I wrote, I can speak to. Lugh Surehand (who I also statted) is much better at 'ruining your shit forever with magic' than pre-'errata' Rigger X is at rigging drones, relative to their respective point totals. More imporantly, though, please don't judge everyone else's work on my isolated screw up. ('But that's what previews are for...' Yeah, I know, but I do think this preview is probably decidedly more imperfect than the book itself. No offense at all meant to Crimson. The purpose of previews I really don't understand anyway. I wish we did not release the public preview at a point in the development cycle when making changes to the content was impossible, but it probably can't be avoided, doing things that way.)

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Errata Version:
This is better, I still would add Simsense booster or accelerator and More then Metahuman and some stuff like TacNet for the drones.

Your pools are right, you could get 2 more dice out of the remote control if you are in hot sim VR. Before your errata most of these pools would be 4-6 dice short and then you are more or less in "I am the Hacker, but I have some drones"-territory.

I don't think every Rigger needs to be built the same way. I don't think SR4A suffers from 'you must be this feat to ride this class' as much as D&D 3.5E.  So I kind of stand by my decision not to add for instance simsense booster or more than metahuman. There is more than one way to build a cat/skin a rigger. Erm reverse that.

I admit that failure to load up most drones with Sensor 6 and Response 6 was a blunder, but don't be so insistent that every rigger must have More Than Metahuman or whatever. Building every character in the same mechanically optimal way gets really boring really fast. It's the characters who use revolvers or melee combat who are often as not more memorable than the characters who go for the most mechanically optimized options, and often, at least in SR, they don't have to be that much mechanically worse to be more interesting in terms of flavor.

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See, that's the problem I have with this kind of book: You don't want the legend to be an almighty god with his flaming sword, because that would just make him a more elaborate way of saying "rocks fall, you die". But if you give the legend sensible stats, the players will consider him just another runner (if allied), or just another goon leader (if opponent).

I think the characters in Street Legends can sort of run the gamut here. Rigger X really is just another runner. A very good runner, but he's not meant to be unkillable. In fact, one of the hooks in the text portion of the chapter is how many enemies he has who might want him dead or captured, to give a GM a quick way to have the PCs match wits with a jackpointer.

However, characters like Lofwyr and Hestaby really didn't need stats. But for the people who like that kind of thing, now they have them. For people who like that kind of thing, and who want to know how many rocks fall, and just how thoroughly everyone dies. : ) And there are people who want to know.

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Ignoring game stats, IMO the most important thing would simply be something "special". Uncommon skills (I'm thinking of that mage from Prime Runners who bargains with spirits), prized knowledge, mighty people at his beck and call...
For example, a view at the Shadowtalker list yields for Mr. X: "Rigger, Space Scavenger Asian. Ex-MCT company rigger. Skilled in electronic spycraft. Permits no opposition to survive." Space and spycraft, eh? How about the ability to get some satellite surveillance? A long history of providing inside scoops on new drone developments and the tendency to field-test his newly "acquired" prototypes on his poor opponents? Contacts to spy agencies?

That said, the updated crunch is certainly better, especially since he finally got upgrades on his drones

I'm glad the crunch is an improvement. (Not to tell tales out of school, but our internal wiki actually makes no mention of the 'Space Scavenger' part for X. The spycraft and 'permits no opposition to survive' however you'll get a healthy dose of in the text portion of the chapter.

If you can see your way to buying the book, of course. : )

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Stat lines for all types of NPC's are awesome for me, I am a junky for this sort of thing ever sense I got hall of hero’s back in mid-1990's (it was out before that but I had just really picked up gaming in high school"). For my own life this is probably the best type of product for me...and have set aside money for it sense I learned of its release.  I know SR is waiting for the book to come out near the end of the month...but I still check (sometimes hourly) when it is up on their site.  But I am a number's crunching person so what's not to love about these products.

Your support means the world to me, although I do hope that 'number crunching people' can love these products too.

Trying to please the Gaming Den(s) of the world will probably be the death of me, though.
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: Neurosis on <07-18-11/1911:26>
@Neurosis: I really respect that you consider making mistakes and trying to fix them instead of giving excuses why the stats are fine. My critic is not against you personally. I know building a rigger is not an easy task and I guess it was a poor choice for the preview (but I don't expect the other stats to be much better). They are the only stats we have and so you are now taking the heat.
As the guy that wrote the stats, he's the only one that should step up and call them a mistake.  I'll say I didn't like aspects of War!, for instance, but since I wasn't involved in it, it's not my place to call it a pile of crap or something like some fans seem to want us to. 

As writers, it's only our place to apologize for the things we are directly responsible for, period.  When discussing the work of our peers, instead of our own, it's a matter of professionalism to not call their work a "mistake."  You can respect him for "admitting" that, or whatever you want to do, but kindly don't belittle the rest of us for not bad-mouthing the material written by a coworker.

Critias is thoroughly right, by the way.

Besides, I believe they were defending somewhat more integral part of the books that came under fire, like the legendary rule. I don't think anyone really waded into the 'Rigger X stats' issue but me. Which is fine, of everyone here, the discussion of Rigger X's stat block, specifically, is probably most important to me personally. (And as I said...thoroughly...in my last post, I don't think the original stats were really *that* bad. But they weren't perfect and I definitely want to improve whenever possible.)

Oh $Deity, people, the book isn't even out yet and we're on page 12 and a stern warning into the thread.

I'd just like to point that out...

I know, personally speaking, that I'm feeling the love. : )
Title: Re: Street Legends
Post by: FastJack on <07-18-11/1938:20>
Right. Both sides have established their talking points, discussed why they believe A or B and neither side is closer to an understanding. I think this topic has been thoroughly beaten well beyond the proverbial dead horse.

I suggest that if this all means so much to y'all, take Frankie's advice and start posting your own street legends. Hell, post stats for your version of FastJack if you want, just remember two things:

1) Your legends won't be official (unless Mr. Hardy contacts you and says "Can we use that?")
2) Prepare to have people pick apart your work on a public board.

Heck, I'll even go a step further. If we have enough interest in posting Legends, I'll see about getting a sub-forum created so they are all in one spot.

But, in regards to this discussion, the thread's getting locked. If things still need to be discussed, take it to PM's.