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Question about Karma Build System in SR4A

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Black Mamba

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« on: <10-11-10/2207:53> »
As the Karma Build system presented in Runners Companion is based of an attribute improvement multiplier of three, I wanted to know if the suggested 750 points was going to be increased to reflect the new multiplier of five.

Glyph

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« Reply #1 on: <10-11-10/2230:32> »
Unfortunately, no.  The latest errata (which is in the German edition, and which I have heard  is in the newer English ones) keeps the karma points the same but raises Attribute improvement to the new cost.  Metatypes also have to pay karma equal to their build point cost now, instead of getting it for free.  An ork, for example, would now cost 20 Karma points to play.

Karmagen still usually comes out slightly ahead of build points, but it is not nearly as high-powered as it was before.  Some might welcome the change, but I actually liked the lavish, extravagant allocation of points.  You could certainly min-max, then fill in your dump stats and pick up some low-level skills to round out the character.  When I did it, though, I found I actually min-maxed less than I did when I had fewer points - and I could explore quirky concepts that would not have been plausible under the tighter build points.

Black Mamba

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« Reply #2 on: <10-12-10/0125:08> »
Thanks, Glyph.  That's just what I need to know.  ;D

Doc Chaos

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« Reply #3 on: <10-12-10/0304:14> »
Unfortunately, no.

I don't agree it is unfortunate. Karma gen was never meant to be a superior char gen system, but an alternative char gen system. With the changes to attribute cost karma and bp gen systems got a lot closer to each other, so people in one group can actually choose if they want to stick with BP or Karma gen and it wont unbalance the group too much (karma is in most cases still slightly ahead of bp).
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Medicineman

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« Reply #4 on: <10-12-10/0337:05> »
As the Karma Build system presented in Runners Companion is based of an attribute improvement multiplier of three, I wanted to know if the suggested 750 points was going to be increased to reflect the new multiplier of five.
The 750 Karma System was based on Attributes cost x5 !
with the old Cost x3 it is/was Imbalanced (It should've been 500-600 Karma then)

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Medicineman
« Last Edit: <10-12-10/0341:21> by Medicineman »
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Mäx

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« Reply #5 on: <10-12-10/0358:35> »
with the old Cost x3 it is/was Imbalanced (It should've been 500-600 Karma then)
How was it imbalanced, you should never ever use more then one chargen system for gaming group and that is just as true with the old karmagen as it is with the errated.
The chargen systems aren't ment to be mixed, so i can't see how can you use that term.

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Medicineman

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« Reply #6 on: <10-12-10/0442:41> »
with the old Cost x3 it is/was Imbalanced (It should've been 500-600 Karma then)
....
The chargen systems aren't ment to be mixed, so i can't see how can you use that term.


They were'nt ?
I'm a little surprised.
I use Karma as well as the BP-System for my Chars and a lot of GMs I know (from conventions and from Forums) don't mind a Group with mixed Chars (if they're Att x5 Karma Chars)

Oh,well....If you don't mix it,then they shure aren't imbalanced .but If you compare the two systems (the 750 Karma with Att x3 and the BP System) the Karma System creates far bigger Chars

with a bigger Dance
Medicineman
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Glyph

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« Reply #7 on: <10-12-10/1719:31> »
I would recommend not mixing the two, myself.  Even with the changes, karmagen still usually comes out significantly ahead of build points - and I usually buy the same number of knowledge skills that I would normally get for "free" with build points.  Even doing that, I come out ahead most of the time, so someone skimping on knowledge skills would come out even further ahead.

voydangel

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« Reply #8 on: <10-13-10/0228:10> »
With my groups, I actually had the cost for attributes be x5, and reduced the starting Karma to about 700, in addition to making people pay the BP cost for meta type. We found that at about 650 Karma and x5 att multiplier you get just about exactly the same "level/power" as with a 400bp character, give or take. Has anyone else done some math / number crunching to try to compare the 2 gen methods?
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Medicineman

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« Reply #9 on: <10-13-10/0724:33> »
I did some with the old (Att x3 and nor Racial Cost) Rules when I converted my SR3 to SR4 Chars
750 Karma was equivalent to 500-550 BP Chars

Than I converted them again with the new SR4A Rules  (Att x5 and incl Racial Cost)
they were at about the same level (I have 2 Chars which came out better as 420 BP than as 750 Karma)
The "disadvantage" of the BP Rules is that it "promotes" Min/Maxing (Hey thats no Problem for Me  ;D , I'm a Min/Maxer at Heart and my Groups/GMs don't Mind at all, but It could be troublesome for some Groups/GMs )

with a Min/Maxed Dance
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esprism

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« Reply #10 on: <10-18-10/1631:33> »
I've been playing a bit with the two character build methods and I think it's almost even if we don't try to exploit the system.

As GM I accept both methods at the same table and I prefer Karma build. I think "free" knowledge skills miss in that system because knowledge skills are really important and often neglected.

As player, my character is better using the build point system, I'm about 40 karma better.


With Karma build, we can create a character that worth "785" build points max. (but it's not really playable)
With Build Point system, we can make a character that worth "1085" karma. Maybe more but it's not easy to calculate. (unplayable)

Conclusion : we can exploit the system but the "best" character is not made with the best ratio "BP/Karma".
Can I do a structural analysis ?
(I have only one dice in English :p)

Kontact

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« Reply #11 on: <10-18-10/1812:14> »
I still don't like how special attributes like edge and magic/resonance fall under the "half karma" attribute cap.
It massively favors non-humans and still leaves any strongly magical/lucky character as a half-spastic.

BREAKING NEWS: Hmm, running a couple awakened tests, if you keep from many soft-maxed stats with karmagen, then you can build a character with equivalent attributes using 375 karma (all attributes) and 200BP (core attributes).  Just with karma, you've got plenty of spending left to do, while with BP you've already burned a quarter of your remaining 200BP on special attributes.

« Last Edit: <10-18-10/1830:46> by Kontact »

voydangel

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« Reply #12 on: <10-19-10/0039:38> »
...
With Karma build, we can create a character that worth "785" build points max. (but it's not really playable)
With Build Point system, we can make a character that worth "1085" karma. Maybe more but it's not easy to calculate. (unplayable)

Conclusion : we can exploit the system but the "best" character is not made with the best ratio "BP/Karma".
I would really like to see a 400 BP build that equates to a 1000+ Karma build. that's sounds slightly exaggerated imo.
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esprism

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« Reply #13 on: <10-19-10/0519:04> »
The way to do it is to spend build points with the best ratio. As I said, it's not a playable character. Minimum ratio is 1 BP for 2 Karma. To make better, the only way is to spend points in attributes when ratio is better than 1 for 2.

I didn't keep the sheet but it was a troll (of course, even if meta-type cost is "lost" because ratio is 1 for 1) with 13 strength and 5 intuition. (there was another solution with same result with 12 str)

The best I've done for a real characters optimised for the system is around 130 Karma better using my actual character concept but optimized for BP system.
Can I do a structural analysis ?
(I have only one dice in English :p)

Mäx

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« Reply #14 on: <10-19-10/0603:03> »
I would really like to see a 400 BP build that equates to a 1000+ Karma build. that's sounds slightly exaggerated imo.
Heh, i just build a fomori build that would have been 900+ karma, except it wasn't even a legal build in karmagen as my attributes would have cost 500+ karma. :o
With nostrefatu i can get into 1100+ karma, but once again im not even allowed to get the stats that build has in karmagen 600+ karma in stats.
« Last Edit: <10-19-10/0628:02> by Mäx »
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