Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Banshee on <11-23-20/1525:18>
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Ok so I'm posting this here because it it is not rule specific but definitely may have some crossover, but....
What do you all want to see in a new rigger book?
Other than fixing the mess that is in the CRB ... I know that already.
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Overflow boxes for Vehicles and Drones so they can be disabled, but still repaired.
Maneuver rules that scale somewhat from Wageslave/Autopilot to Samurai Wheelman to "Hold My Beer" Rigger stuff.
Vehicle and Drone customization, what we had in 5th was good I thought.
Couple Matrix Actions for Riggers.
"Throwback" option for Vehicle Riggers.
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Oh, and Used Vehicles and Pirated Autosofts. Off the top of my head, a 5% cost reduction for each decrease of the number of "1s" needed to Glitch. Somewhere in that ballpark anyway.
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So I think rigger has two path ways that are the common fantasy of the archetype. The wheelman and then the drone rider. The issue inherent with this is your rigger general isn’t with the party. Resolving or embracing this component of the archetype is necessary. I’m sure a method could be found to make rigger effective direct combatants (think artificers from 5e dnd). But it simply comes down to expectations of the concept. You share something of the decker issue if you have then absent.
Personally I think adding gear to make them personally effective is the way to go. Heavy rigger armor with droned weapons systems basically is Where my head goes with it. But certainly that would be fairly major change from them as written in the core.
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A way to overclock drones so they can hit an extra initiative die, meaning they can move and do 2 Majors. Players can get Cyberjacks, would be nice if Pilots also can get buffed.
Some example maneuvers for GMs, so they don't hold on to (Handling) all the time, but realise lower thresholds are allowed, and even a threshold 0 can be fine (no need to roll if you're doing something simple, unless it's in a frickin' van).
Lower penalties for unopposed Handling tests, since both high Handling AND low speed intervals now is too much of a punishment. (Why in previous discussions I suggested halving speed penalties for unopposed Handling tests, only using the full number for opposed and for attacking from a driving vehicle.)
Some interesting vehicle-chase options, with ones focusing on making the corners vs ones working through obstacle courses.
A way for drones to survive getting downed, perhaps Overflow of some sorts.
Location-specific shots that don't automatically cripple the vehicle, but do cause penalties.
A tank.
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A way to overclock drones so they can hit an extra initiative die, meaning they can move and do 2 Majors. Players can get Cyberjacks, would be nice if Pilots also can get buffed.
(Probably) unpopular opinion: I don´t think that Drones and Vehicles should have these high Iniative and Action counts in the first place. Their appeal should be shere numbers, specialisation and (depending on the drone) durability. Having the same action economy as a dedicated street sam by default doesn´t belong in that list IMO. Multiple Attacks for multiple Drones tend to clog up table time and takes the appeal from piloting them yourself, since they will usally act just as fast as jumped-in riggers and faster than riggers with manual controls.
However: If the default IDs of Autopilots were lower, it would be an excellent idea to add an Initiative Boost option to autopiloted drones.
A way for drones to survive getting downed, perhaps Overflow of some sorts.
Yes, please! And reasonable repair costs this time!
A tank.
More precisely: A Cyberpunk Tank, with spider legs and a kawaii anime voice option :D
Ok, here´s some more stuff I´ve already flying around in some houserule drafts that I would love to see:
Upgrade rules for vehicle stats, esp. the Pilot rating: Well, Duh.
- Also: Options to downgrade Drone stats for more Modifications (may include Initiative Dice?)
- Also: Options to "hardwire" Autosofts into a Drone to safe valuable progamm slots.
Specialized Autosofts that don´t just mimic Skills, but offer more unique perks.
- F.i. I was thinking about a kind of "Manhunt" Programm that´s primed on certain targets via facial recognition and offers bonuses to spot, track and attack them. Adds a bit more dread and fits the "mindless killer machine" trope.
- Other Softs might add a distinct Personality, enhanced Decision Marking, the ability to spot supernatural phenomena...
- In principle, Rigger 5 already introduced stuff like the Smartlink and Grouping Autosofts. However, those fell flat because they didn´t really offer anything special and many players already assumed that drones have these options anyways...
Coatings/Armor Options: Colour-Swapping, Ruthenium Polymers and other Smart Materials, Elemental Resistance, Armor Upgrade (including hardened options?)
Weapons: More Mounting options, including Mounts for smaller Firearms and Melee Weapons, Reload Mechanisms, Quick-change Mounts, retractable Mounts, better Articulation...
- 5th Edition mostly got it right here. What didn´t make sense though, was that the manual control option made weapon mounts more costly, even when you removed remote control at the same time. IMO, the best solution would be to have either mount start with one default control option (manual, remote) and charge modders only for adding the other one as well.
- Also, options for shared Control and Teamwork, especially in regards to shooting. Like one person/Autopilot steering and another one doing the shooting...
- Also, a (balanced!) option for multi-weapon Drones to go full tilt by combining multiple Weapon Systems at once. Right now, multiple Mounts mostly attribute to weapon variety, but they don´t really increase the overall firepower.
Personal Gear, Implants and WANs : Rigging is not just about moar DronesTm. Don´t forget about RCCs and Control Riggs!
- Make it smaller: Interesting for more clandestine Riggers. Also, it´s kinda weird that you can implant decks, but not RCCs rn...
- Make it bigger: Instead of making the RCC smaller, you could also dispense mobility/conceilability and fit more Programms/Slaves/Upgrades into the WAN. Could be an interesting option for "dude in the Van"-style riggers and security spiders.
- Make it sleazy: RCCs could use an option to add a kind of "passive" sleaze Attribute to help against early Matrix detection and traces. Note: A Rigger supplement would also be a good place to clear up the lingering questions about RCC/Deck hybrid PANs.
- Make it quicker: I.e. bonus IDs for Control Rig Implants.
Last but not least: Clear TF up how Edge works for autonomous drones!
(Kinda telling how one mentioned this so far, despite Edge being pitched as the major selling point if this Edition... ::))
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Wouldn't Drones get an initiative bonus from being VR? If the Rigger is Jumped in or remote piloting then use the Rigger Initiative, if the Drone is on it's own it's Pilot program is in VR and should get a couple dice.
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Wouldn't Drones get an initiative bonus from being VR? If the Rigger is Jumped in or remote piloting then use the Rigger Initiative, if the Drone is on it's own it's Pilot program is in VR and should get a couple dice.
That´s currently the case: Drones get 3 ID, which is equivalent to Hot-Sim VR.
Problem is: Drones are virtual entities in the Matrix, but are they really "in VR" in the same way as a hacker or a Rigger? Keep in mind what the ID bonus in VR is actually meant to represent: It´s the enhanced speed of the metahuman mind that can act and react faster because it´s no longer confined by the flesh. This is not really the case for Drones. Their "dog brain" is just virtual to begin with. Now, one could argue that it makes sense if this "dog-brain" of a drone just always acts faster than a standard metahuman, simply because of that. But there are some counterpoints. F.i. a "dog-brain" lacks the creativity of the metahuman mind and less efficient ways of processing its soroundings and decision-making. Also they still have a "body" with limitations. This might even out things, to a point were drones would act roughly as fast end efficient as a normal metahuman character. At the very least, it´s not "mandatory" to give drones more ID by default because they are "virtual". It´s a design choice.
That´s why I would have preferred Drones if Drones just had the usual 1 ID (= 1 Major, 2 Minor Actions) by default and then options to add more ID through individual upgrades or through the RCC: That would have added more variance, tough upgrade choices and also more benefits to Jumping In: RAW, a jumped-in Rigger might even turn out slower if he uses Cold Sim.
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Drones get 3 dice so 1/4 Actions, which is fine to me, but I want them to be able to go higher, even if expensive. You can go higher with augmentations, drugs, magic, cyberjacks, but Pilot programs cannot ever be boosted further. That's why I'd want some way to make them even faster, for the one Rigger drone/vehicle that really needs to be able to handle itself.
Something else I want: Formalizing that all drones function by Grunt Group, some just are better at it.
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Drones get 3 dice so 1/4 Actions, which is fine to me, but I want them to be able to go higher, even if expensive. You can go higher with augmentations, drugs, magic, cyberjacks, but Pilot programs cannot ever be boosted further. That's why I'd want some way to make them even faster, for the one Rigger drone/vehicle that really needs to be able to handle itself.
I´m mostly on the same page here: With the right mods, a Drone should be able to get to 4 or even 5 dice, along with the corresponding Actions. I´m just critical of the fact that their default score is already so high, so that there´s less room for such modifications (and Control Rigs!) to shine and less variation among drone speeds. That´s why I would have preferred a smaller default ID count for Drones, about 1-2.
That being said: "Nerfing" the default ID scores in a later supplement is certainly not a good idea, because it will rub players the wrong way. However, there are still ways to introduce "slower" drones: Besides Mods that add ID, there could also be options that subtract them:
- In 5th Edition, Riggers could also reduce attributes to make room for more Modifikations. That could be extendended to the number of IDs as well.
- Some Drone Modells might also have this trait by default.
- Likewise, cheap "Second-Hand"-Drones might come with variable flaws, including slower Autopilots
Side note: Stuff like this is an often overlooked design space. When you ask players what they want to see in the future, they will mostly list upgrades, but "voluntary" downgrades and restrictions in exchange for price reduction or other perks can be just as important to make things more interesting. In the same vein, I´d really like to see a comeback of Geasa in a Magic Supplement.
Something else I want: Formalizing that all drones function by Grunt Group, some just are better at it.
Good idea! The F-B Blackhawk already has this trait. Could be formalized as the effect of an Autosoft or Upgrade that the Blackhawk already has by default.
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A comprehensive table that lists the dice pool for all rigger actions (drive, attack, defence, sneak, perception, etc.) + derived statistics (AR / DR / etc) for all vehicle control method (manual, autonomous drone, control device, jumped in)
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Moar drones and vehicles. Moar modifications. Moar qualities. Moar edge actions.
I would like to see some focus on build, repair and modifying rules.
Rules for how Technomancers can become drone operators (perhaps an echo that let them share autosoft program emulations to drones in their living network).
Rigger/Decker-crossover matrix actions that, at least if you have the correct electronics or cracking skills, can be performed with a RCC (perhaps Confuse Pilot, Supress Noise, Target Device, Tag, ...)
As for initiative dice; The autopilot already have hot sim vr equivalent initiative dice on their own....
Want to improve even on top of that? Get a cyberjack and control it yourself (or get more drones).
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As for initiative dice; The autopilot already have hot sim vr equivalent initiative dice on their own....
Want to improve even on top of that? Get a cyberjack and control it yourself (or get more drones).
Good call!
While it´s still quite mushy (errata, plox? ???) if the Initiative Bonus from Cyberjacks refers to actual Initiative Dice, there´s nothing (besides the price tag) that prevents riggers from getting a Cyberjack along with their Control Rig and RCC. Even in Banshee´s semi-official Matrix clarification/errata, only the combination of RCCs and Cyberdecks is prohibited.
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A fix that makes vehicles less 'unsafe at any speed'. Have you done the math on a Ford Americar driving at a very modest 30km/hour? If a control test is required for any reason (say a 'Runner dashing in front of the car, or having a tire shot out) even a reasonably good 'average driver' will almost certainly crash (threshold of 5), and the autopilot likely has no chance at all. And the Ares Roadmaster? A death trap even for the average rigger at highway speeds (threshold 13). I find it breaks my immersion so badly that at the moment I just don't want to deal with vehicles or drones at all.
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A fix that makes vehicles less 'unsafe at any speed'. Have you done the math on a Ford Americar driving at a very modest 30km/hour? If a control test is required for any reason (say a 'Runner dashing in front of the car, or having a tire shot out) even a reasonably good 'average driver' will almost certainly crash (threshold of 5), and the autopilot likely has no chance at all. And the Ares Roadmaster? A death trap even for the average rigger at highway speeds (threshold 13). I find it breaks my immersion so badly that at the moment I just don't want to deal with vehicles or drones at all.
An americar's pilot rating of 1 has literally no chance to pass a handling test (threshold 4!), even at parking lot speeds where you don't subtract any dice for speed intervals....
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A fix that makes vehicles less 'unsafe at any speed'. Have you done the math on a Ford Americar driving at a very modest 30km/hour? If a control test is required for any reason (say a 'Runner dashing in front of the car, or having a tire shot out) even a reasonably good 'average driver' will almost certainly crash (threshold of 5), and the autopilot likely has no chance at all. And the Ares Roadmaster? A death trap even for the average rigger at highway speeds (threshold 13). I find it breaks my immersion so badly that at the moment I just don't want to deal with vehicles or drones at all.
Yes that why my OP says... "other than fix the mess in the CRB"
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I don't think autosofts are limited to the pilot rating in 6e? (maybe I just missed it). But I was assuming you could have pilot 5 or something running (mathematically possible to succeed, but very unlikely)
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Rigger need rules for running a chase scene.
The ones in core are crap.
The only ones that I have seen work are the Deck based ones where random events and obstacles are pulled from a deck/ table.
Without good chase rules wheelman riggers are mostly irrelevant.
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Without good chase rules wheelman riggers are mostly irrelevant.
Yeah... This is something I feel no edition of shadowrun got right (so far) :-(
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Late entry. A way for Riggers to get Sleaze without investing in a Cyberdeck. Or some way of increasing Run Silent, Logic + Sleaze by a meaningful amount.
I'm thinking something like 5th's Smoke and Mirrors but only runs if the Persona has a - for Sleaze. No idea how the fluff would work for such a thing.
Sneaky recon drones are really not so sneaky when the 3 Intuition, 3 Computer skill Wage slave has a better than 50/50 shot of spotting the ICON.
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Late entry. A way for Riggers to get Sleaze without investing in a Cyberdeck. Or some way of increasing Run Silent, Logic + Sleaze by a meaningful amount.
I'm thinking something like 5th's Smoke and Mirrors but only runs if the Persona has a - for Sleaze. No idea how the fluff would work for such a thing.
Sneaky recon drones are really not so sneaky when the 3 Intuition, 3 Computer skill Wage slave has a better than 50/50 shot of spotting the ICON.
Instead of using Sleaze as a mechanic, perhaps use Noise.
Increasing noise for opponents (which make his drones harder to notice) while reducing noise within the rigger network (which let him extend range).
Messing with airwaves and communications in general feels more.... 'Rigger'-ish. And appropriate for a RCC.
Similar effect
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Tricky. Not sure how you'd be able to do that without blanketing a whole block with Noise though. Kind of the opposite of sneaking. I mean, sure nobody can hear you tippy toe on by if there is a Jet engine running in the driveway. But won't folks want to know why is there a Jet engine running in the driveway?
Jammers and the Jam Signals action already generate Noise, but really aren't terribly useful for hiding remote Drone Icons. But it would certainly achieve the desired mechanical effect, I just don't know how you do it in game.
Something that generates Noise vs Matrix Perception targeting a Riggers PAN and it's associated Icons would work though. Fluff it as some kind of ECM stealth field?
Anyway. Sneaky Drones that are hard to spot in the Matrix.
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Anyway. Sneaky Drones that are hard to spot in the Matrix.
Well, that's what running wireless-off does.. make your drone exceptionally hard to spot on the matrix :D
Of course no jumped-in or remote control or RCC sharing, but you make your choices about tradeoffs.
But yes, I agree Riggers need some running silent love. Shouldn't have to be wireless-off or nothing.
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A fix that makes vehicles less 'unsafe at any speed'. Have you done the math on a Ford Americar driving at a very modest 30km/hour? If a control test is required for any reason (say a 'Runner dashing in front of the car, or having a tire shot out) even a reasonably good 'average driver' will almost certainly crash (threshold of 5), and the autopilot likely has no chance at all. And the Ares Roadmaster? A death trap even for the average rigger at highway speeds (threshold 13). I find it breaks my immersion so badly that at the moment I just don't want to deal with vehicles or drones at all.
I am now utterly confused. Threshold 13? I thought Speed Intervals were a dice penalty, not a threshold increase.
Also, note that a GM has the right to change a threshold. Having a tire shot out on a sturdy car seems like a solid reason to make it a threshold-1 test instead. Also, that's why proper runners get run-flat tires.
(But yeah, that would be why Autopilots don't bother trying to deal evading people that run in front of them. And why my own houserule halves speed interval penalties on unopposed tests, because the double-whammy is too big a penalty in my taste.)
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A fix that makes vehicles less 'unsafe at any speed'. Have you done the math on a Ford Americar driving at a very modest 30km/hour? If a control test is required for any reason (say a 'Runner dashing in front of the car, or having a tire shot out) even a reasonably good 'average driver' will almost certainly crash (threshold of 5), and the autopilot likely has no chance at all. And the Ares Roadmaster? A death trap even for the average rigger at highway speeds (threshold 13). I find it breaks my immersion so badly that at the moment I just don't want to deal with vehicles or drones at all.
I am now utterly confused. Threshold 13? I thought Speed Intervals were a dice penalty, not a threshold increase.
Apparently I just can't read. I think I'd carried over the thought from fifth that certain things modify the handling threshold and just didn't read the 6e rules carefully enough to notice the change. (And oddly when in a PBP game where we were feeling out the rules and I worked through all of that the way that I thought it worked, nobody noticed the error. I guess others hadn't read those carefully either?)
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Well, that's what running wireless-off does..
Rules on if and in that case how to resolve wireless-off drones is actually something that should be included in the Rigger supplement :-)
(can they be voice commanded? if so can you use a voice modulator or recording to spoof the voice of the owner? is it still a minor action? can you control multiple drones with one verbal command even if you are not using a RCC? is there a risk that the on-board autopilot become confused, abort and fly 'home'? can you establish a direct connection to them and still hack them if you get close enough? loads of questions that need to be answered if this is possible....)
Edit;
On the same theme. Can you jump into a vehicle that is offline (if you sit in the driver seat and connect to it via a wire). How does grid-guide and other vehicles treat you if you are wireless disabled? Is it even legal to drive while wireless disabled? Will you attract attention from traffic control? Will your vehicle become immune to hacking? If not connected to the grid, how long does it take until your vehicle run out of battery?
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Running a drone Wireless off is niche use. Certainly works, but then, why bother with a Rigger? The mage can run a drone wireless off as well as the Rigger.
Several drones are clearly intended to be "Bugs" as they're, well, Bugs. Really shouldn't be an easy Matrix Perception test to find them when they're being used by PCs exactly as they're intended.
5th edition Riggers could get enough Matrix Attributes / Sleaze to sneak past anyone other than "Real" Matrix security, and they had a shot at sneaking past them. Mostly due to how broken Smoke and Mirrors was, but, whatever.
Not saying re-print Smoke and Mirrors but Rigger ECM stuff should be able to get past Matrix Security. And sneaky Drones are probably just my own pet-peave. I'm sure there are other areas where Riggers could use more Matrix counter measures.
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Something that would be good to include is a bit more detail about different options we have to override control (if there is such thing in SR6 that is)
It seem to be clear that;
- You can't use Control Device if someone else is jumped in.
- You can't Jump In if someone else is already jumped in.
If someone else is jumped in then your attempt to control will automatically fail.
What is less clear is what happen if someone is just using manual control or regular remote control (nobody else is jumped in).
- Drone already have a driver/operator so any attempt (no matter method, even jumping in) to override control / take over the control will fail.
- Drone already have a driver/operator so any attempt to override control / take over the control will fail, except if you jump in (jump in > all).
- Drone already have a driver/operator so any attempt to override control / take over the control will fail, unless you use a control method of a higher 'control order' (jump in > remote control > manual control, as it used to work in SR5).
If the intent is that remote control can be used to override manual control (like it did in SR5) then it could also be good to include a manual override accessory (like we had in Rigger 5.0)
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Banshee,
Art for every vehicle even if black and white. 1E Street Samurai Catalog style.
I would changes vehicle stats to BARSASDF model. (Body, Agility, reaction, Strength, Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing, Firewall). Example Strength is analogous to Horsepower. Body is equivalent to Mass. Acceleration is a function of Thrust to Weight ratio. Thus comparison of Body and Strength can give you a realistic acceleration with a higher value of verisimilitude. A strength 6 body 2 (small drone) would be accelerate quickly 3:1. A strength 10 and body 10 vehicle (SUV) would accelerate gradually 1:1. I have an aerospace engineering degree to back it up.
Also, willing to play test. We are running a weekly Rigger/Matrix game right now. My players are all trained or professional vehicle or drone operators (ie helicopter pilots, EW experts) and would be willing to play test new rules to help smooth out inconsistencies before publishing.
Hit me up. chopperblack1999@gmail.com. A couple aren't agents yet but we can get them to sign the paperwork and NDAs.
vr,
Chopper
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I ran into an interesting discussion just now.... :-)
In SR6 is it intended that the only way to control a vehicle is by commanding the onboard autopilot, manual control and jumped in?
That you can no longer remote control it yourself, using your own skills and attributes.
That all references that talk about "remote control" in the rigger section is actually talking about instructing the onboard autopilot and not you actually using the vehicle yourself remotely.
There are very few examples in this edition, but there is one on p. 201
It talk about a drone that is 'controlled remotely'. Which mean it will roll autosoft + sensor.
In fact, depending on your reading there is nothing in the entire rigging chapter that suggest that there is a 4th control option where you can also actually remote control it yourself without jumping in.
Only reference I still found was under the control device action.
If this is a deliberate change from previous edition then I think it would be good to clarify this (either here directly on the forum or in the upcoming supplement).
If not then I think it would be good to clarify this as well (perhaps by describing the order of override operation, if such still exists).
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I ran into an interesting discussion just now.... :-)
In SR6 is it intended that the only way to control a vehicle is by commanding the onboard autopilot, manual control and jumped in?
That you can no longer remote control it yourself, using your own skills and attributes.
That all references that talk about "remote control" in the rigger section is actually talking about instructing the onboard autopilot and not you actually using the vehicle yourself remotely.
There are very few examples in this edition, but there is one on p. 201
It talk about a drone that is 'controlled remotely'. Which mean it will roll autosoft + sensor.
In fact, depending on your reading there is nothing in the entire rigging chapter that suggest that there is a 4th control option where you can also actually remote control it yourself without jumping in.
Only reference I still found was under the control device action.
If this is a deliberate change from previous edition then I think it would be good to clarify this (either here directly on the forum or in the upcoming supplement).
If not then I think it would be good to clarify this as well (perhaps by describing the order of override operation, if such still exists).
I have it on decently good authority that's already being addressed, Xenon :D
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I ran into an interesting discussion just now.... :-)
In SR6 is it intended that the only way to control a vehicle is by commanding the onboard autopilot, manual control and jumped in?
That you can no longer remote control it yourself, using your own skills and attributes.
That all references that talk about "remote control" in the rigger section is actually talking about instructing the onboard autopilot and not you actually using the vehicle yourself remotely.
There are very few examples in this edition, but there is one on p. 201
It talk about a drone that is 'controlled remotely'. Which mean it will roll autosoft + sensor.
In fact, depending on your reading there is nothing in the entire rigging chapter that suggest that there is a 4th control option where you can also actually remote control it yourself without jumping in.
Only reference I still found was under the control device action.
If this is a deliberate change from previous edition then I think it would be good to clarify this (either here directly on the forum or in the upcoming supplement).
If not then I think it would be good to clarify this as well (perhaps by describing the order of override operation, if such still exists).
Well as most people know I wrote the matrix, but I wasn't alone and my partner wrote the rigger. We switched roles as I was lead on matrix and he was the lead on rigging. So ......
Control device is not intended for use on drones or vehicles ... because those have a pilot program that "controls" them ... that means there is a significant but subtle difference between controlling a device and remote operation of piloted vehicle
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Control device is not intended for use on drones or vehicles ... because those have a pilot program that "controls" them ... that means there is a significant but subtle difference between controlling a device and remote operation of piloted vehicle
Wow, today I learned something :o
Well, that simplifies a lot actually.
Thanks for sharing this.
But it also opens up some more questions.
"You can control vehicles remotely,"
"You can’t be both jumped into a drone and controlling it remotely."
So, "control remotely" here actually means "instructing" or "commanding" the onboard autopilot.
Not "remote controlling" it with a game controller as we did in previous edition. Fair enough :-)
(but I think perhaps that it would have been more clear if we used "command remotely" or "instruct remotely" rather than "control remotely").
"Rigging can be done in AR and VR"
"Whether you are rigging with AR or VR, you’re using the Matrix, so..."
"...you interact with your rigs through AR or VR, and you switch between the two with the Switch Interface Mode action"
Does this mean that we can now "jump in" via AR?
Or does "Rigging" means instructing the onboard autopilot.
"If you’re rigging remotely, noise penalties apply"
Does this mean that instructing the onboard autopilot remotely via AR suffer noise penalties?
(but there is no test associated with instructing a drone... or does the autopilot itself now suffer noise penalties when executing your instructions...?)
SR6 p. 44 Rigger Jump In (I)
A character with a vehicle control rig (VCR) and rigger-adapted vehicle or drone or a rigger command console (RCC) may jump in to control the vehicle or operate the RCC with a Major Action.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.
SR6 p. 197 Control Rigs and You
In order to jump into a vehicle, drone, or other supported device, a rigger must have an implanted vehicle control rig (VCR), or the appropriate technomancer complex form.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.
SR6 p. 283 Control Rig
It has a built-in sim module, allowing DNI with other devices. It also comes with a universal data connector and about a meter of retractable cable that functions like a datajack.
When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its rating as a dice pool bonus on all vehicle skill tests and a bonus point of Edge.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.
SR6 p. 295 Rigger Interface
The rigger interface is what allows a rigger to jump in and actually feel as if they are the vehicle instead of a metahuman.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.
SR6 p. 182 Jump into Rigged Device
you have to have the proper access level on the device you want to jump into, you have to be in VR, the device you want to jump into has to have a rigger adaptation, and you have to have a control rig.
The action in the matrix chapter is the only place I can find that mention a VR requirement.
Is this entry perhaps copy pasta from SR5??
SR6 p. 200 Using a Weapon in a Vehicle
When using a weapon mounted on a vehicle, use Engineering + Logic.
So, this is not talking about "remote controlling" it with a game controller as we did in previous edition. Fair enough.
This pass is strictly talking about when jumped in (via both AR and VR?) and manual operation (but never really understood why we don't use our regular firearms + agility when manually firing a door mounted assault rifle or LMG).
SR6 p. 180 Control Device
This test assumes you are using the device directly, not commanding a device to use another (such as commanding a drone to fire its weapon).
Seem to be clear that Hackers don't use this action to instruct the onboard autopilot (Spoof Command seem to be the action that is is used for that). Fair enough. But if the intent is that we cannot actually remote control the drone to fire its weapon directly then it is confusing that this is used as reference.
SR6 p. 180 Control Device
A Control Device action versus a device currently “jumped into” by a rigger automatically fails.
The action in the matrix chapter is the only place I can find that talk about actually remotely controlling a device that you can also jump into
Is this entry perhaps copy pasta from SR5??
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I would changes vehicle stats to BARSASDF model. (Body, Agility, reaction, Strength, Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing, Firewall). Example Strength is analogous to Horsepower. Body is equivalent to Mass. Acceleration is a function of Thrust to Weight ratio. Thus comparison of Body and Strength can give you a realistic acceleration with a higher value of verisimilitude. A strength 6 body 2 (small drone) would be accelerate quickly 3:1. A strength 10 and body 10 vehicle (SUV) would accelerate gradually 1:1. I have an aerospace engineering degree to back it up.
A consistent ruleset for the physical world, Magic, Matrix and Rigging is like the unified theory of relativity and quantum mechanics. Would be so elegant, yet apparently is so complicated to attain.
In the meantime, we're stuck with this kind of hoopajoop (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZY9vRIGFUxGUM-GzEm5HQnESlKmugRjs7e4_A9pHHB8/edit?usp=sharing). From which I can at least ditch two columns from what I'm reading here. But split the "Jumped into" column in two, for AR and VR respectively.
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In the meantime, we're stuck with this kind of hoopajoop.
Since there only seem to be 3 control methods (Instructing onboard autopilot, manual control and jumped in) your Excel sheet will become simple and elegant.
But split the "Jumped into" column in two, for AR and VR respectively.
Let us not jump to conclusions here ;-)
For now you should probably assume that "jump in" is [still] VR only.
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Control device is not intended for use on drones or vehicles ... because those have a pilot program that "controls" them ... that means there is a significant but subtle difference between controlling a device and remote operation of piloted vehicle
Wow, today I learned something :o
Well, that simplifies a lot actually.
Thanks for sharing this.
But it also opens up some more questions.
"You can control vehicles remotely,"
"You can’t be both jumped into a drone and controlling it remotely."
So, "control remotely" here actually means "instructing" or "commanding" the onboard autopilot.
Not "remote controlling" it with a game controller as we did in previous edition. Fair enough :-)
(but I think perhaps that it would have been more clear if we used "command remotely" or "instruct remotely" rather than "control remotely").
"Rigging can be done in AR and VR"
"Whether you are rigging with AR or VR, you’re using the Matrix, so..."
"...you interact with your rigs through AR or VR, and you switch between the two with the Switch Interface Mode action"
Does this mean that we can now "jump in" via AR?
Or does "Rigging" means instructing the onboard autopilot.
"If you’re rigging remotely, noise penalties apply"
Does this mean that instructing the onboard autopilot remotely via AR suffer noise penalties?
(but there is no test associated with instructing a drone... or does the autopilot itself now suffer noise penalties when executing your instructions...?)
SR6 p. 44 Rigger Jump In (I)
A character with a vehicle control rig (VCR) and rigger-adapted vehicle or drone or a rigger command console (RCC) may jump in to control the vehicle or operate the RCC with a Major Action.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.
SR6 p. 197 Control Rigs and You
In order to jump into a vehicle, drone, or other supported device, a rigger must have an implanted vehicle control rig (VCR), or the appropriate technomancer complex form.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.
SR6 p. 283 Control Rig
It has a built-in sim module, allowing DNI with other devices. It also comes with a universal data connector and about a meter of retractable cable that functions like a datajack.
When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its rating as a dice pool bonus on all vehicle skill tests and a bonus point of Edge.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.
SR6 p. 295 Rigger Interface
The rigger interface is what allows a rigger to jump in and actually feel as if they are the vehicle instead of a metahuman.
There is no mentioning about a VR requirement here.
SR6 p. 182 Jump into Rigged Device
you have to have the proper access level on the device you want to jump into, you have to be in VR, the device you want to jump into has to have a rigger adaptation, and you have to have a control rig.
The action in the matrix chapter is the only place I can find that mention a VR requirement.
Is this entry perhaps copy pasta from SR5??
SR6 p. 200 Using a Weapon in a Vehicle
When using a weapon mounted on a vehicle, use Engineering + Logic.
So, this is not talking about "remote controlling" it with a game controller as we did in previous edition. Fair enough.
This pass is strictly talking about when jumped in (via both AR and VR?) and manual operation (but never really understood why we don't use our regular firearms + agility when manually firing a door mounted assault rifle or LMG).
SR6 p. 180 Control Device
This test assumes you are using the device directly, not commanding a device to use another (such as commanding a drone to fire its weapon).
Seem to be clear that Hackers don't use this action to instruct the onboard autopilot (Spoof Command seem to be the action that is is used for that). Fair enough. But if the intent is that we cannot actually remote control the drone to fire its weapon directly then it is confusing that this is used as reference.
SR6 p. 180 Control Device
A Control Device action versus a device currently “jumped into” by a rigger automatically fails.
The action in the matrix chapter is the only place I can find that talk about actually remotely controlling a device that you can also jump into
Is this entry perhaps copy pasta from SR5??
Ugh, yes ... I should say "I intended" and yes fully agree the rigging chapter is at best half baked. I will try to address as best as I can my interpretation combined with intent ...
Control device vs remote operation...
The end result without a rewrite of rigging means these are essentially the same thing even though I wanted there to be a difference, but ... even my intent leaves them very similar. Control device is for extended use of a device (while spoof command is a single action) so yes you can use it to pilot a drone or fire a drones weapons using your own attributes and skills as appropriate (Piloting + Reaction or Engineering + Logic). Remore operation by AR is handled the exact same way, but Remote Operation also allows for jumped in control (by using a control rig and going VR)... jumped in changed physical attributes to the equivalent mental ones but otherwise handles the skill test the same way.
Rigging in AR vs VR ... this is a serious oversight on our part for not clarifying and comes from the fact that it is second nature to us and assumed apparently obvious, but hey I can admit that's not the case now. So "rigging" is an ambiguous term here, but AR rigging is basically just extended use of the control device action as noted above while VR rigging is when you jump in
Using a weapon in a vehicle... this was done in an attempt to simplify things. So mounted weapons are all fired by gunnery which got lumped into Engineering, and covers both remote and manual operation. However I would also rule that a simple pentacle mount which is what you have in the door gunner example would use the weapons normal weapon skill and attribute.
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Thanks for the clarification Banshee.
Rigging in AR vs VR ... this is a serious oversight on our part for not clarifying and comes from the fact that it is second nature to us and assumed apparently obvious, but hey I can admit that's not the case now. So "rigging" is an ambiguous term here, but AR rigging is basically just extended use of the control device action as noted above while VR rigging is when you jump in
I assume nothing prevents you from using the Control Device action in VR too.
So we indeed have the following cases:
- Direct physical piloting or driving of a vehicle
- Control Device in AR
- Control Device in VR
- Jumping in in VR
- Giving orders to drones that act on their own
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Thanks for the clarification Banshee.
Rigging in AR vs VR ... this is a serious oversight on our part for not clarifying and comes from the fact that it is second nature to us and assumed apparently obvious, but hey I can admit that's not the case now. So "rigging" is an ambiguous term here, but AR rigging is basically just extended use of the control device action as noted above while VR rigging is when you jump in
I assume nothing prevents you from using the Control Device action in VR too.
So we indeed have the following cases:
- Direct physical piloting or driving of a vehicle
- Control Device in AR
- Control Device in VR
- Jumping in in VR
- Giving orders to drones that act on their own
Yeah, but there is technically no difference to control device between AR and VR except a possible different attribute used when applicable
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Indeed. Initiative can differ a lot though.
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So, remote operation, where the operator is not Jumped In but does use their skills and attributes, *IS* an intended mode of control in 6e, and the Control Device action *DOES* let a hacker control a drone in this manner? Whew... okay, have to say I'm thankful even though I was arguing the "no it isn't" side of that discussion with Xenon. I had a chat with my gaming group today after Xenon agreed that it probably was not the case, and their response was "but I can remote control a drone today". Hard to argue with common sense. I mean sometimes divergent tech makes things weird, but direct remote control of a robot shouldn't be one.
Anyway... looking forward to a much clearer Rigger book. Street Wyrd has a few quality problems but I think it's a step in the right direction.