Shadowrun
Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign GM chat => Topic started by: Pollution on <11-05-13/1030:17>
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Okay, normally this isn't too complicated, running a Missions game. however, my group is on Humanitarian Aid, and I just finished reading the story front to back. There seems to be a GLARING omission in the fight with the Shedim.
HOW MANY??? Scene 5 doesn't actually say how many enemies.... Okay... So I look back over the story synopsis... It says a DOZENS!!
WTF??? That can't be right...can it? My players have wiped the floor with EVERY other story in this book, but 12 Force 6 Shedim??? All at once??? followed by the good Doctor?!?!?! nuh uh.
from the Synopsis:
e island is dark and shrouded in ever-present fog. A low
humming noise catches the team’s attention and leads them into
a clearing. In the clearing are several items of note: a set of snowmaking
machines, a dozen people loading said machines with rats
and their e uvia, and the mostly intact crates of vaccine from the
clinic. As soon as the runners move toward the vaccine or the goresoaked
snow machines, the shedim in the clearing attack.
I look at the text in Scene 5 and it says nothing about numbers.....
Look, I've got a Phys.Ad with killing hands, a Mage, a Gunslinger Adept and a Technomancer..... The first 2 can take these buggers out one or two at a time, but A DOZEN?!?!?! followed by a fight with a MASTER Shedim???? Seriously?
These guys will WRECK my team. can't be right...can it? And there's a background count of FOUR?!?!? With the doctor immune? jeebus.
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We played without Immunity to Normal Weapons, which was a mistake from our side (SR5 description should include Immunity to Normal Weapons since this is what Possession gives them), and took a rough guideline of 2 Shedim per player, since Missions are balanced on 6 players and a dozen vs six means 2 per 1.
At 9 Shedim vs 5 players, and a sudden "okay, you're nearby spying but now you roll Sneaking, someone fails so combat starts" bombshell, we took a bit of damage, especially the Mage. Auslander had 2 Shedim with him, with Immunity he clearly should be by himself, and even then our mage overcasting was part of how we got to kick his ass. Note that his Spell Defense should have applied here and ruined the aim of the AoE spell, but it was overcast at a level where that simply would have meant "Auslander, his minions AND several players take damage."
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BALANCING TRICKS
1: You got a party of 4, so I'd give them a tough fight and throw 8 Shedim at them. If they're smart, they get first strike and that means they can do significant damage in advance. If they're dumb, whelp... Their fault, and they'll live. Probably.
Note that Immunity to Normal Weapons will hurt like hell here. You might want to consider using just the dig team at 6 Shedim.
2: Give serious consideration to halving the Shedim their Edge. Seriously. SRM04-08 admitted Auslander is too tough by halving his Edge. Since SR5 has halved Spirit Edge, it seems no more than fair to apply the same to Shedim. It's bad enough that each Shedim has their own Edge Pool, adding 6 Edge per Shedim to the mix makes it a disaster and results in really high Push-The-Limit results.
3: Environmental Modifiers. If you declare the light to be Dim and the Fog to be Moderate, that's -3 and -3. The light -3 gets boosted to -6 by Shedim power. Ultrasound lets you ignore the -6 and shifts the fog -3 one level up to -1. Thermographic Vision shifts both up 1 row to -1 and -3, so you face a -3.
Note that the Shedim do NOT have this. So while your own attacks will face -3 from the fog+darkness, the Shedim face a -6 from the fog+darkness. This should be a nice balancing factor in the battle, you'll have a hard time hitting (especially Auslander) but the enemy will have an even worse penalty. Not to mention that the normal Shedim charge into melee, so at that point they take a -3 vs ranged attacks.
This -6 (or -3 for Thermographic Vision) also applies to Spellcasting, so Auslander won't be able to score a lot of damage.
4: Overcasting. Auslander should NEVER overcast. He knows full well his Regeneration won't restore Drain damage, so overcasting Toxic Wave is a really bad choice for him. If he goes unconscious while only 1 person remains standing, he dies. So he wouldn't do this.
5: John. If you only have 4 players and they have a hard time in the first battle, consider letting John not get knocked out. If he melees Auslander, that gives the ranged attackers a better chance to hit the doc.
6: Make sure the players remember to play smart. Get them paranoid. Make sure they take precautions, use defensive tricks. They can let a Spirit, summoned before entering the background count, use Concealment on them, or hide between the trees even after the first battle is over, paranoid as one might be that more might be coming. At that point, Auslander might not notice them and they got a shot at doing a LOT of damage even if both sides Edge the roll.
Auslander has 8 Magic, so his Immunity to Normal Weapons is massive. Against an APDS-loaded Ares Alpha he rolls 8+16-6=18 dice and gets (16-6)/2=5 autohits, so on average he knocks off 11 damage. So 1 net hit would translate to perhaps 1 damage. If you use a Remington 950, we're talking 16 dice + 4 autohits for an average reduction of 9.33 vs 12+NH damage, so he'll take a few points. A snipershot, on the other hand, will easily knock off half his health even if he edges and so does the attacker.
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Humanitarian Aid is already (in)famous for being brutal, it's definitely not a "Welcome to Shadowrun" type of run. The exact number of Shedim will probably come down to how much magic you have in your group, but like Michael said, a 2:1 ratio is probably a good starting point. Hope the players are smart and give them a chance to roll Magic Theory to remember that when there are Shedim, there's probably a Master Shedim nearby (so they don't blow all their resources in the first phase of the fight).
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"No, let's not attack them, let's wait for the boss to show up."
"Okay guys, roll Sneaking, this has taken long enough."
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Seriously, we could have taken out half of the first group with a Force 6 Ball Lightning and a sniper barrage before the first Combat Turn even started. But noooo, someone wanted to wait. (Here's hoping my girlfriend doesn't read this post.)
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(Here's hoping my girlfriend doesn't read this post.)
You still wanted a back-up GM? :)
In my defense: Shedim don't make themselves. So scouting for their maker makes perfect sense. And I have a perfect tool for that, a spy-drone. So next time, wait for the drone to get results before running onto the island. So you know you are not being ambushed by a shedimmaster who could very well be hidden behind the trees.
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Hey, I had 15 Sneaking dice. -_- That's more than your drone. It was the mage that got us noticed.
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I hadn't noticed that 5th Edition removed physical immunity from spirits.
That makes me feel much better.
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It didn't. Spirits still have Immunity to Normal Weapons when Materialized, and the Shedim are supposed to have it as well. It's not listed because Possession isn't available in SR5 yet, and Possession grants them that Immunity, but they are still supposed to have Immunity in SR5, both Shedim and Spirits.
The damage-increase makes it easier to actually injure them, while Immunity's boost makes it so that they take less damage when injured.
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Ah...right....
Well....bugger.
haha, I guess I'll just have to play it carefully. I'm not the kind of GM who shy's away from letting players get killed, but at the same time, i want to make this a fair fight. They could use a real challenge, no question, but I'm going to have to carefully go over the suggestions above to try and find a balance between "You got hit, you die" and "You got hit, take 4 Physical". I don't think ANY of my players have even been hurt passed 2 levels yet. I'd LIKE them to have to work for it for once, but at the same time, I don't want to erase them from the playing field in 1 turn. hehe.
Thanks for the help.
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Hey, I had 15 Sneaking dice. -_- That's more than your drone. It was the mage that got us noticed.
Ah, post-game player mutual recriminations.
Mmm, delicious. :)
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In my defense, no one had warned me we might end up having to do sneaking tests (or I would've made the spirit use Concealment), and the GM only did a single roll and said "they all see through your 4 hits on Improved Invisibility". That's what I get for trying to avoid abusing scenario knowledge, I suppose.
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Does invisibility effect astral perception?
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No, neither Invisibility nor Concealment affects Assensing. Only putting things between viewer and target (breaking LOS the old-fashioned way) works in astral space, or maybe something that creates enough of a background count to nerf the viewer's Assensing dice pool.
You might make the case that Invisibility combined with Masking could work, but you have the problems of whether Masking can mask the spell and whether Masking can make an aura vanish entirely instead of just disguising it.
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There was a rating 4 Background count and we were inbetween trees. Plus they used Perception, since they weren't actively looking for us with Astral Perception but simply using a passive perception test.
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I thought in 5E spirits only had astral perception?
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Spirits have both skills, Assensing and Perception. They're also dual-natured when materialized (or possessing), so they can use both skills and observe both meat space and astral.
The trees should have given some concealment in the astral, but Auslander's Assensing (and Perception) dice pool starts at 16 and even the lesser F6 shedim start at 12 dice. Since the background count on the island is aspected toward the shedim, it wouldn't have penalized them.
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It doesn't penalize their magic, yes, but Background Count came with Astral Visibility penalties in SR4. A muddy environment is hard to see through even if it's your kind of mud.
Their Perception would still be penalized at a -2 since they're not paying attention. Even though dual-natured means they bypass Visibility and Lighting penalties, they'd still face the Astral Visibility penalty in SR4, it's not clear whether this will still be in SR5's magic book.
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The only rules we have for background counts in SR5, for now, are the Hot Patch and those in the Missions. Those rules do not mention astral visibility modifiers (except in listing Assensing as a magical activity), but rather are a blanket dice pool penalty to any magical activity (or all activity, for dual natured creatures and spirits) not aspected toward the background count. As they stand, the rules make it easier for an appropriately aspected viewer than for others to see in astral space.
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I have a few questions (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=13531.msg251053#msg251053) about the quarantine in this mission.
Since the writeup doesn't mention anything about the matrix not working inside the quarantine area, I assume that means it does still work?
Since Silva never heard from the archaeologists after the quarantine began, I assume that means that if the Matrix works, one cannot contact the rest of the world while inside the quarantine zone?
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Not hearing from them was why he was worried. Given how you can still search for info on Shedim or call contacts for intel on them, I don't think a full lockdown is in place. Note that you don't even experience Noise.
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I theorized in my linked post that perhaps Horizon got the Grid Overwatch Division to help out with the matrix side of the quarantine.. using plot magic to allow Horizon and police/security forces to use the matrix but not the townies or archaeologists who happened to be caught inside. Since the PCs are Horizon's 'special consultants' that plot magic could be extended to include their use of the matrix from inside the quarantine.
Then again, maybe the timeline works out that the team's sudden end of communication had more to do with turning into zombies than the quarantine going up...
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I thought I'd update on how this all went down.
Long story short:
Fight vs Spirtis only:
Spirits dislodged a few gasmasks and knocked out the Johnson with Paralyzing Touch. Everyone managed to make their fear check. The mage had 5 spirits on his side, so that kinda helped a bit. I was AMAZED that our gunbunny with his Krime Cannon didn't do more damage. The most damage done was actually my character (small group this game, so I helped in combat) with his Ares Alpha loaded with APDS rounds. Suppression Fire is AMAZING BTW.
The combat with the spirits lasted 3 initiative rolls (we've never had to reroll initiative). Nobody got hurt, spirits were dispatched.
Fight vs. Big Bad:
OMG. The good doctor cast a F8 Toxic Wave (didn't overcast as suggested, TY!). Nobody died. although EVERY character was on his ass. ALL the Mage's spirits died (big time). The mage was down to 1 condition box, my own character was down to 3, and the gunbunny I think only had 4 left.
Fairly stressed, I decided that Doc would NOT cast Toxic wave again. That'd just be mean. The runners ended up actually taking him out....eventually.
Things I learned:
1) Toxic Wave is the most OP spell I've ever seen. Holy Crap!
2) If you can't hit your target because he's dodging with 7 hits EVERY attack (lucky dice for GM) then you REALLY need to use Full Auto (-9 Def = "dodge this" moment).
3) The worst thing in the WORLD that can happen to your runners in this module is to let the doc Overcast, or use edge on that Toxic Wave. 15P incoming is B.A.D. And whatever you do, don't have him cast it twice. For fuck's sake, don't cast it twice.
4) This module needs another 2-3 Karma added to it's rewards, MINIMUM. Another 5k Nuyen wouldn't be bad either.
5) I HIGHLY advise anyone running this to use the -6 vision modifiers suggested above. My team ended up at -3, and the baddies at the full -6. SAVED THEIR ASSES!
Rough module. Holy crap.
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I'm running a campaign set in Denver and I moved the location for this adventure to a small town in present day NM close to Chaco Canyon. It ended up fitting so well that I'm convinced it shoulda been set there from the get go :D
Unfortunately we had to call the game session early, so we left on a cliffhanger with the PCs rummaging through the archaeologists' motel rooms and the lone Shedim shambling into the room.
I'll post the results after we finish.. I'm kinda scared for them as they're playing decided non-optimized characters.. and it's a small party (of 3). I'm thinking of dropping the shedim at the snowblowers to only 3 or 4 to give them a chance before facing off with the good doctor.
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Paranoia is your friend. :) Never group together.
Devil Rat: You definitely want to let them spread out a tiny bit at the point where Auslander hits John, and let John get up at -10 Initiative and join the fight from the very start. This way they're not Toxicable and got a good attacker by their side. You'd probably also want to half Auslander's Edge to 4, and then it will still be a reaaaaally tough fight.
Speaking of John, let him supply some advice and carefulness as they approach the island, and use the entire team at 6 Shedim. The first Shedim at the motel should make clear they should just kill all the Shedim with a bit of legwork, and the Shedim are limited in movement range so if you engage them from a distance, you can get some potshots in before they reach the players.
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I'll post the results after we finish.. I'm kinda scared for them as they're playing decided non-optimized characters.. and it's a small party (of 3). I'm thinking of dropping the shedim at the snowblowers to only 3 or 4 to give them a chance before facing off with the good doctor.
I just finished running with a group of three who were optimized for roll playing rather than min/maxed. Not surprisingly, the good doctor proscribed two doses of beatdown (see http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=13713.0).
Needless to say, give them whatever help they need in order to get this guy. He's one tough old bugger.
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Well, as the Shaman from the situation I can explain it from my point of view. Firstly, the background count for the whole area (a huge area) was at 3. That's -3 to all magical abilities. As it also applies to drain that had me running with 5 drain dice in the 'city' and the additional -1 for the island dropped me down to 4 dice to resist drain. We went to the island for a scouting mission, ideally we would have been able to send the drones out and spotted whatever was going on out there. We had a gaggle of flyspy drones. Instead we were pretty much put in medias res for the main combat scene. If we'd have been able to scout the island properly, we could have fallen back, done a regroup and come at it from a better angle. The Background count was murder for me, as a Shaman, I felt I was basically screwed the entire encounter. I had a light pistol (hur hur hur) and any casting I did that would pack any punch was just as likely nearly knock me out, and then the second casting (because there were so many of them) would have killed me.
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Wait, Background Count affects Drain resist rolls?
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Not to the best of my knowledge...
Here's the text from the hotpatch.
Background Counts impose a negative Dice Pool penalty equal to their rating for all tests that are linked to or utilize magic in any way (i.e., spellcasting, summoning, assensing, any test made while astrally projecting, and any active skill that benefits from active adept powers such as killing hands, critical strike, great leap, or improved skills, etc). Dual Natured creatures and spirits suffer this penalty to all actions.
I can see a reading of that where it includes drain rolls, but it's not how i would have read it.
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Had I known that, I would have been a little more confident in casting and summoning. I read that info and said, "Looks like I am screwed."
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Also, in this scenario the GM should definitely not just use In Media Res, and make sure to let the players announce clearly what they're doing, even if that interrupts the cinematic description.
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Drain is a Damage Resistance test rather than a Magic-linked test.
Basically, background count affects anything that includes a test linked to the Magic attribute or is performed while Dual-Natured (Astrally Perceiving or Astral Projecting).
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Except that it's not a simple matter of Magic-linked tests being penalized in SR5. It's all tests that in any way profit from any sort of magical ability. For example, Initiative. So it's a bit confusing. I don't think it gets penalized, but it's not as clean-cut as one might think.
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See, now I am more confused than ever. Bull, where for art thou?
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This really needs clarified, and will hopefully have more information in the Magic Splat, whenever that comes out. For the time being though, treat it like you would a wound penalty, except it only applies when magic abilities are used. So -X to initiative, and -dice to tests, and it doesn't effect damage resistance (which includes drain tests).
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Woohoo, I can cast in Chicago without worrying so much about killing myself!
(http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Dancing_81ce46_349289.gif)
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How does Street Grimoire affect running this module?
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I'd consider it official now that the doc is meant to have 4 Edge in SR5, so go with that. Background Count is still nasty, so unless a runner has Adept Centering or Cleansing they'll have a hard time. The main question remains whether Possession is supposed to give Immunity.
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Okay, I've had a chance to read through the entire module, and this thread. So, I have a few questions/comments:
- Two of my players have Ares Alpha assault rifles with the underbarrel grenade launcher. My thought is that the initial Shedim will be easily dispatched with a few grenades, but the PCs won't be able to do the same with the Master Shedim because John will be too close. Should I put extra effort into the first fight, or concentrate on what happens once the big guy arrives?
- The module states, "The shedim's first attacks will always be attempts to dislodge the breathers from the runners." I assume this means hitting with a successful Unarmed combat roll?
- I know there was talk about Toxic Wave, but I would prefer to use Ball Lightning instead. It slows down the PCs, giving the big bad more time to act. Is there something I'm overlooking?
- Does the good Doctor have any way to sustain spells? There doesn't seem much point to casting Armor if it's going to give him a penalty to sustain.
- If the Master Shedim wants to destroy the vaccine, I don't see a way the PCs can stop him. A single Ball Lightning or Toxic Wave would wipe out the entire shipment, especially cast at Force 8. Would he take the action to do this, if it means having his physical form destroyed by the runners' retaliatory attacks?
- If the Doctor has Immunity to Physical Weapons, he's nearly unkillable (ignores attacks of 15 DV or less, 8 auto successes on Damage Resistance, plus a 19-die Defense pool), so I'm going with the interpretation that he doesn't have Immunity. However, the lack of any armor and only an 8 Body means he'll only last until a character can get one or two hits. Even with that Defense pool, full auto from two highly skilled Street Samurai with assault rifles will quickly tear him apart. Should I add a bit of armor (maybe Armor Clothing) to compensate?
- The group focuses on ranged combat for the most part, which is a good thing since I don't see how they're going to get within 8 meters of him. None of their Charisma + Willpower pools is anywhere close to 16 dice.
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Immunity to Normal Weapons still suffers from AP though. You mention Ares Alphas, with APDS that's 11P/-6 and thus it will always pierce the Immunity. So let's assume they hit with 1 net hit, that's 12P/-6 vs 8 Body, 16-6 = 10 Immunity, 5 hits on the Armor spell. So 8+10+5 soak, and 10/2 = 5 autohits. At 1 net hit it's ~1/3 chance to actually do damage, with 2 damage done average on a hit. It's a dogfight at that point. A Magical Indirect Combat Spell would solely face 8 Body and 5 Armor from the spell, and he only has that 5 Armor against any non-Physical attacks.
If he doesn't have Armor, hitting will be far more difficult due to the -2 sustaining penalty not applying. A damaging hit will be more likely then, but only if they still manage to hit and then they likely would have done more damage (due to an extra net hit) in the first place. I'd use the Armor spell, it makes sense from the doc's perspective. And 3 net hits instead of 1 already is 2/3 chance to hit instead.
As for destroying the Shipment with a single spell, first of that's a bit of a silly move for the doctor since he cannot easily recover from Drain, while the crates may very well be resistant enough to not lose everything inside on the first attack. And he also should focus on his enemies. As for Toxic Wave, it just fits more with the environment y'know?
If you think the players lack the kind of tricks needed to hit him, consider making him show up completely alone. But please stick to the designer intent that he has Immunity, because as you say otherwise it's far too easy. It's the climactical boss fight, and you can always make John wake up and join the fight if that doesn't work.
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Immunity to Normal Weapons still suffers from AP though. You mention Ares Alphas, with APDS that's 11P/-6 and thus it will always pierce the Immunity. So let's assume they hit with 1 net hit, that's 12P/-6 vs 8 Body, 16-6 = 10 Immunity, 5 hits on the Armor spell. So 8+10+5 soak, and 10/2 = 5 autohits. At 1 net hit it's ~1/3 chance to actually do damage, with 2 damage done average on a hit. It's a dogfight at that point. A Magical Indirect Combat Spell would solely face 8 Body and 5 Armor from the spell, and he only has that 5 Armor against any non-Physical attacks.
If he doesn't have Armor, hitting will be far more difficult due to the -2 sustaining penalty not applying. A damaging hit will be more likely then, but only if they still manage to hit and then they likely would have done more damage (due to an extra net hit) in the first place. I'd use the Armor spell, it makes sense from the doc's perspective. And 3 net hits instead of 1 already is 2/3 chance to hit instead.
As for destroying the Shipment with a single spell, first of that's a bit of a silly move for the doctor since he cannot easily recover from Drain, while the crates may very well be resistant enough to not lose everything inside on the first attack. And he also should focus on his enemies. As for Toxic Wave, it just fits more with the environment y'know?
If you think the players lack the kind of tricks needed to hit him, consider making him show up completely alone. But please stick to the designer intent that he has Immunity, because as you say otherwise it's far too easy. It's the climactical boss fight, and you can always make John wake up and join the fight if that doesn't work.
The problem is that while one Street Samurai can do minimal damage through the Immunity (one uses APDS, the other uses Explosive ammo), the rest of the party has a tougher time in the fight. The second Street Samurai's explosive ammo will bounce against the Immunity (12P, -3 AP). The Face/Decker only has a light pistol, which means the only thing he can contribute is grabbing some of the serum and running. The Mage will be taking -4 on his spells, which means he has 8 dice for casting (Spellcasting 6, Magic 6, -4 penalty), and not the greatest selection of spells versus the Doc (he normally uses Control Thoughts or Ball Lightning). The Gunslinger Adept's main weapon is a light pistol, though fortunately she just picked up the Cavalier Arms Crocket EBR in Ashes and loaded it with EX - Explosive (14P, -4 AP) - which does enough damage to not bounce. However, she's taking a -3 die penalty (she has Improved Agility 3 that she'll probably turn off) and no full-auto to help hit. John, by the way, is useless against the Master Shedim if Immunity is in play - the machine pistol will bounce, as will his unarmed attacks.
My concern is that I don't want the fight to be fun only for a few characters...and I want to be consistent. If the Master Shedim has Immunity, so will the normal Shedim, which completely changes the first fight. I'm perfectly willing to bring in normal Shedim for the final fight if balance is an issue, but I'm on the side of the fence that feels the 5E Shedim don't have Immunity based on my reading of the rules. Plus, this shouldn't be TOO long of a fight...even with worrying about Drain, the Doc's AoE spells can quickly turn this into a TPK. On average, the Doc will get 5 hits versus drain, and can spend Edge to reroll failures. The first spell he throws will probably be a Force 8 Ball Lightning. By all rights, he should spend Edge on both the spell and the Drain resistance test, but I'll only have him do so on the latter.
Now, if I remove the Immunity, it makes far too much sense for the Doctor to have previously bought some Armor Clothing (or has stolen some from a victim). I could go so far as to give him a Lined Coat without unbalancing things - it's less than 1000 nuyen, and it gives him a good soak
Shipment - With a Force 8 AoE spell, it's quite likely the Doc can hit the shipment AND at least some of the PCs. Or, if he wants the shipment destroyed and is worried about Drain, he can cast it at a lower Force twice...which should still do enough damage to destroy a bunch of glass vials in boxes.
Toxic Wave versus Ball Lightning - Toxic Wave is overused in Missions...it seems like every spellcaster has it. I wanted something different, and the Initiative penalty effectively gives the Doc more chances to act.
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But 12p/-3 would pierce on one net hit. And no, as Bull said, Master Shedim only.