Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Lorebane24 on <03-22-18/2235:20>
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I've been combing through all of my sourcebooks lately in preparation for paper I'm writing for a game design course, as well as brushing up on various forums, and there are a few pieces from the most recent sourcebooks that just fit together too nicely. So there's a lot going on and the chips could fall in a lot of ways, but the fact that these few things seem to be linked, and that, collectively, they have been appearing more often in the books (and especially on the tarot cards) leads me to believe that the big 5th ed culmination metaplot (in line with the Chicago fiasco, Crash 2.0, and the Great Dragon Civil War) is going to see the food crisis burst open in Asamando, resulting in ghoul cannibalism that results in some sort of Horror-based threat (who they seem to be rebranding as the Elder Gods so they can use them again).
The whole bringing back and updating the Horrors, I think, would click well with an overarching nostalgic theme that seems permeate 5th ed (bug spirits coming back to the fore, Deus showing up in Boston - essentially a different spin on old shit, which, so far, I've loved). On top of that, we've recently been seeing updates on, right alongside the Elder God stuff, more action and activity from bug spirits and the shedim, who have historically been indicators that the Horrors are drawing closer to our metaplane.
Then, working back from there, Forbidden Arcana has a full chapter that pretty closely ties Ordo Maximus to the Elder Gods (whether they know it or not), and seems to imply a connection the HMHVV virus has to them that can either be strengthened or brought out via ghoul cannibalism.
And then on top of that, an incipient food crisis has been looming over Adamando for a while now. The thing that really sold it for me was an image I came across earlier (it's old news by now, but I'm not sure how widely known it is) that demonstrates if you line up the bottoms of the minor arcana in a sixth world tarot deck correclty, the little dots at the bottoms create a map of the world. If you do it with the aces, the court cards, and the major arcana, same deal, except the dots are arranged so that there is clearly a ring rippling out into the world. And wouldn't you know it? The epicenter of that ring is right in the middle of Asamando.
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I live for people like you.
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I've heard your name. You've got a podcast or something, right?
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it is crap.
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There was a forum discussion about the elder gods thing a while back, and while the horror connection is tenous at best, unless they have decided to revamp the horrors, which I dearly hope they haven't, the shadow spirit connection is much more clear. Gaf,Tak, Dru and Obe are directly mentioned in the elder gods chapter, and they are defined in Aetherology as great shadow spirits. That mention also establishes a connection to the Aleph society chapter in Threats 2.
Following what we know about the horrors the first incursions should be far in SR's future, of course that doesn't mean that they can't be present through cults and individuals working for them, but unless as I said, they have decided to revamp them, they won't show up anytime soon. Which is a good thing because SR has more than enough metaphysical threats established in its lore already, you just have to use them.
Personally I'm happy to see new love shown towards the infected and the Invae as threats, and also shadow spirits, which I think have been very underused so far.
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I honestly wouldnt mind if they're rebranding the horrors. It's really just a name, and I think the 5th ed writers have done a fantastic job with cool lore in this edition, so I would trust them to do something nifty without falling into the trap of "we're calling them Elder Gods so lets stick some public domain lovecraft shit in there." In the same vein, I wouldnt mind if it was shadow spirits either. Im sure wherever they go with it, it'll be cool.
That being said, the detectives in that chapter in Dark Terrors wave off the incident as not matching shadow spirit MO, and the sidebar about them appears right next to another sidebar about the Dweller taking a vacation and other things like that. In the same chapter, Glitch mentions the apparently disparate files share a theme, s so I think that the fact this shit shows up alongside that bridge-building artifact adds a further cinnection to the horros.
It's also been established (and recently reinforced) that the GGD accelerated the timeline of the horror's return drastically. Even if the bridge was borken back then, there is a precedant that it can be reconstructed, like, now.
So currently, I imagine that they are going to hint that "elder gods" may be a category of supremly powerful horrors. Crawlers and gum toads can be fought and killed, but it's when the elder gods show up that dragons go underground. I think that the LILITU angle is probably Ordo disovering that one specific elder god, tied to the HMHVV, has an alternate bridge into this plane that is opened when infected begin feeding on one another on a large scale.
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I do think Nuking Ghoul land while we still have time is the best option.
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what if a thing existed , but people perceived it to be something else and were confused? Would the people who believed in the thing, even if they got it wrong, be wrong? or would people who knew nothing of the thing be more right, not even knowing?
- Man of Many Names
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So currently, I imagine that they are going to hint that "elder gods" may be a category of supremly powerful horrors. Crawlers and gum toads can be fought and killed, but it's when the elder gods show up that dragons go underground. I think that the LILITU angle is probably Ordo disovering that one specific elder god, tied to the HMHVV, has an alternate bridge into this plane that is opened when infected begin feeding on one another on a large scale.
Man, I am not up to date on the metaplots. But that sounds really really interesting. Dark Terrors is legitimately one of the best books released for SR5.
But man, I wish I had the ability to connect the dots like you seem to be, Lorebane24. Do you follow stuff like horror ARGs too?
I... Didn't consider the fact that the Horrors are potentially an Earthdawn IP and that calling them Elder Gods could be a way to avoid any sticky situations with that. I only heard about the horrors from people who played for decades (I joined at the end of 4th Edition).
Also, the ability of Infected to feed on eachother has been something I've been wondering about for actual months. Maybe longer. I made a thread on here about it ages ago, so if they take it in that direction, I guess I can consider that an official "Yes, and".
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I credit my background in teaching English and rhetoric! I spent a few years working with high school students in China who were getting ready for AP English exams, so to teach them the skills for the synthesis essay information (basically "Here's a topic, here are 6-8 sources about that topic, now you have 45 minutes to incorporate some of them into an argument on that topic). Suffice it to say spending so much time teaching other people to connect dots to reach meaningful conclusions has really sharpened my ability to do the same.
I'm not sure what ARGs though, are. Is that a product line? I my library of 5th ed books is pretty extensive, but haven't ever taken a look at missions or published adventures - I like to put my own spin on the world in my games, and I feel like the books have enough lore teasers in them that I don't need to turn to published adventures for ideas. I mean I'm sure they'd each have some fun tidbits, but I don't think I'd get enough use out of them personally to justify the price tag.
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ARG are "Alternate Reality Games". The most mainstream/earliest of which was called Marble Hornets (if you've heard of it or want to learn more). They're a unique form of storytelling where an on-going story (usually horror and mystery) is told from an in-character perspective across multiple social media platforms, like youtube videos, twitter accounts, etc. Many even go as far as making fake websites. Viewer participation is a major part, viewers get together to intepret clues and codes and interact with characters on social media to help them solve the mystery. If you're interested in knowing more I could link you to a YouTube channel that discusses and explains some of them. I think they're absolutely fascinating. The "line up the bottoms of tarot cards to find a picture of a map" thing is right along the lines a lot of these ARGs try to do. Though obviously most can't release a product for sale like Catalyst can.
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I’m amazed by those who do connect the dots. Personally I suck at it and need people like you to spell it out for me.
Deep up the good work!
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ARG are "Alternate Reality Games". The most mainstream/earliest of which was called Marble Hornets (if you've heard of it or want to learn more). They're a unique form of storytelling where an on-going story (usually horror and mystery) is told from an in-character perspective across multiple social media platforms, like youtube videos, twitter accounts, etc. Many even go as far as making fake websites. Viewer participation is a major part, viewers get together to intepret clues and codes and interact with characters on social media to help them solve the mystery. If you're interested in knowing more I could link you to a YouTube channel that discusses and explains some of them. I think they're absolutely fascinating. The "line up the bottoms of tarot cards to find a picture of a map" thing is right along the lines a lot of these ARGs try to do. Though obviously most can't release a product for sale like Catalyst can.
Ooooh, okay! I would say that these are... new to me. In the game design course I'm in the middle of, we did read a bit about a game like that called AI from a decade or two ago. Shadowrun has become my favorite RPG largely because of how the lore is distributed and the sense of accomplishment that comes from becoming one of those "in the know" (that and my uncommon love of cyberpunk shit). A few weeks back I snapped up a few books for to get idea for an upcoming game, Book of the Lost among them, and the way they teased shit in there really stirred something - it's only in the last few months I've been getting REALLY into this, so it definitely sounds like something worth looking into. What would be a good place to start?
I ought to reiterate though, that I didn't find the map thing myself (I did test it with my own deck with glee, though), I stumbled across that when I was digging around reddit forums for lore and ideas.
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The question is it the horror or the elder gods is really meaningless one. In the long game it doesn't matter if the Elder God are the Horrors or vis versa. Nostalgia is great but the game is the game. Regardless of how you label an incoming threats, the most important part of the conversation is that they are incoming threat. You gotta deal with the threat as they show up, you can't hold back dealing with the elder gods just b/c the horror might be right around the corner. Soul sucking creatures from beyond gotta get got. Regardless of who's next on the get got list. Focusing on the Bridge, and how to hurt and slow down an incoming threat seems like the first step in countering said incoming threat. I assume we will all learn more about how to do that, as information becomes available and we see what Jackpoint gets itself up to. Perhaps in the Neo-Tokyo line, folks will get to begin perusing this line further. I do think the point made by the cards is the most serous one.
My full respect to Lorebane24. Who knew the Tri-horse was so strong?
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what if a thing existed , but people perceived it to be something else and were confused? Would the people who believed in the thing, even if they got it wrong, be wrong? or would people who knew nothing of the thing be more right, not even knowing?
- Man of Many Names
People who fear shadows see shadows when they feel fear. People who fear horrors see horrors when they feel fear. Who's to say horrors do not lurk in shadows? ;D
On another note, I took the whole "Elder Gods" thing to be some force (we'll see which it turns out to be) playing on an existing mythos within the 6th world's psyche to attract followers. Essentially, the cthulhu mythos already exists, we want followers, let's use the existing paradigm instead of trying to introduce a new one and gain some followers/power. Alternately, a lot of the things in the cthulhu mythos are Babylonian (or similar) in origin, and could be pieces of an older understanding of certain big bads, but not as old or refined as the understanding that existed in the 4th world (some knowledge was lost between ED and Babylon, essentially).
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That's kind of how I figured they'd explain it in-universe. It's not that necessarily that we're just going to pretend they were always called "elder gods," but I could see them doing something along the lines of "They've had many names over the ages. Authors and madmen have produced weird works when they act as their muse, but in the Sixth World, the phrase "elder god" already carries certain connotations, and as people slowly become more aware of them, this is the name that seems to be sticking."
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Actually I think it's likely they'll go with the "HP Lovecraft was right all along and had magic during the 5th World". They've expressed before that some minor supernatural stuff that happened during the 5th World was actually just people eking tiny magical potential out of the trace amounts of mana. As well, Forbidden Arcana drops this little gem:
THE SEER
The seer is theorized to be the earliest manifestation of the rise of magic, with the exception of “spike babies.” It’s also one of the hardest to prove, as the people involved do not manifest magical talent. Seers, as a category, also include dreamwalkers—those that can astrally project.
Those who believe this theory have theorized that authors like H.P Lovecraft and L. Frank Baum were aspected magicians whose inspiration came from the astral planes.
• Cannot take any magical skill group.
• Astral Perception is a Complex Action instead of a Simple Action.
• Gains psychometry metamagic for free (p. 145, Street Grimoire).
• Gains sensing metamagic for free (p. 158, Street Grimoire).
So I'm expecting, if the Elder Gods and the Horrors are the same thing, that basically HP Lovecraft did witness the Horrors on some level during the 5th World, and was the one who dubbed them Elder Gods, as it is a fitting moniker. So not "the Horrors slipped into the archetype", and not "well the Elder Gods are known by people, and the title works, so it just came together" but more "this is the name they were given by the first guy to discover them this cycle".
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That's more or less the angle I am currently running with as I planmy campaign, except I want to push the idea that Lovecraft was still just getting whispers and flashed, and everything was filtered through his glass-fragile Anglophile sensibilities. Cthullu is bush league shit - he's a big guy with bat wings and an octopus head. Lovecraft vaguely understood their power, but not their form, so his mythos is really just the tip of the iceberg.
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The Cthulhu mythos has been referenced in books for over 20 years in SR books because, well, it's pretty common IRL. In a way, it makes for a powerful tool upon which malignant magical forces can exploit and imprint upon in order to shortcut their ways to acquiring more power.
what if a thing existed , but people perceived it to be something else and were confused? Would the people who believed in the thing, even if they got it wrong, be wrong? or would people who knew nothing of the thing be more right, not even knowing?
- Man of Many Names
People who fear shadows see shadows when they feel fear. People who fear horrors see horrors when they feel fear. Who's to say horrors do not lurk in shadows? ;D
On another note, I took the whole "Elder Gods" thing to be some force (we'll see which it turns out to be) playing on an existing mythos within the 6th world's psyche to attract followers. Essentially, the cthulhu mythos already exists, we want followers, let's use the existing paradigm instead of trying to introduce a new one and gain some followers/power. Alternately, a lot of the things in the cthulhu mythos are Babylonian (or similar) in origin, and could be pieces of an older understanding of certain big bads, but not as old or refined as the understanding that existed in the 4th world (some knowledge was lost between ED and Babylon, essentially).
I'm not saying this is correct (because I genuinely don't know), but it makes sense.
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without putting a fine point on anything, here are a few considerations:
1. Catalyst absolutely CAN use the word horror to describe what we all know as Horrors. It was used in a previous book, and therefore is fair game.
2. Even though they CAN, it is very unlikely that people in the 6th world WOULD use that word. That is a 4th world term. The people who have encountered the horrors in the 6th world have already given them other names such as tzitzimine and terrors.
3. Elder Gods as of yet have not been encountered as such, and they might not even exist. If they DO exist, they may not be what the followers of the Elder Gods think they are.
4. If Horrors exist and were not well documented, it would be easy to imagine that those legends became or were folded into more modern mythos.
5. It can also be imagined that unreliable narrators are making educated but mistaken guesses.
;)
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It would be awesome if the “old gang” got together and had a talk about “How accurate Lovecraft was in his predictions and how it must be suppressed” akin to the chatroom log in Aztlan Sourcebook ...
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Funny enough, I had wanted to do something in that vein with Dark Terrors, but I had to pull out of the book due to family stuff. :(
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It would be awesome if the “old gang” got together and had a talk about “How accurate Lovecraft was in his predictions and how it must be suppressed” akin to the chatroom log in Aztlan Sourcebook ...
Agreed . . . but who could fill The Big D-shaped hole . . . ?
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I really need to pay more attention in my spare time I wasn't even aware the current plot had finished.
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It would be awesome if the “old gang” got together and had a talk about “How accurate Lovecraft was in his predictions and how it must be suppressed” akin to the chatroom log in Aztlan Sourcebook ...
Agreed . . . but who could fill The Big D-shaped hole . . . ?
His brother.
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Schwarzkopf, the eternal scholar or maybe even Celedyr.
It could even be a great opportunity to bring back the Welsh great dragon to relevance.
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I do think there is a good list of candidates, to answer that question.
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It would be awesome if the “old gang” got together and had a talk about “How accurate Lovecraft was in his predictions and how it must be suppressed” akin to the chatroom log in Aztlan Sourcebook ...
Agreed . . . but who could fill The Big D-shaped hole . . . ?
His brother.
Ghostwalker could, yes - but would he? Also, wouldn't it be a bit too soon for The Big G to interact with Laughing Man . . . ?
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The Orange Queen has shown herself to be attentive and willing to help metahumanity with its woes, just like Big-D. She may or may not be as attuned to the dangers and knowledge, though.
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Arleesh is a decent candidate to become more talkative on the subject. The events of the civil war got her out of her own crusade and a bit more into the world.
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It would be awesome if the “old gang” got together and had a talk about “How accurate Lovecraft was in his predictions and how it must be suppressed” akin to the chatroom log in Aztlan Sourcebook ...
Agreed . . . but who could fill The Big D-shaped hole . . . ?
His brother.
Ghostwalker would never lower himself to such a conversation with metahumans.
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It would be awesome if the “old gang” got together and had a talk about “How accurate Lovecraft was in his predictions and how it must be suppressed” akin to the chatroom log in Aztlan Sourcebook ...
Agreed . . . but who could fill The Big D-shaped hole . . . ?
His brother.
Ghostwalker would never lower himself to such a conversation with metahumans.
Oh, I don't know. He did quite a lot as Dollmaker.
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His time away and the death/separation from Zebulon seems to not have improved his disposition.
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I would suggest bringing in some new blood tbh. I think Hualpa and/or Arleesh would have an interesting perspective on many of the related issues, maybe even Lung.
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I want to see more Damon. He sounds like a fun guy.
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Before this becomes another dissertation on “which dragon should fill Big D’s Shoes”...
The concept of the Elder Gods being used as an inroad for the re-insertion of the Horroi plotlines seems doable and plausible, I just don’t want SR to devolve into a CoC world. Dystopian Cyberpunk Paranatural Fantasy ... fine. I would point out that references to Al-Azif (the text) have been made in Sr books in 5E, so this does open up inspiration from any number of sources.
HMHVV ties to the Elder Gods I personally believe are because Blood Magic, of any kind, is an easy method of channeling higher than normal levels of magical power, and with the global tainting of the mana sphere due to the GGD these options are more center stage for usage. I would however point out that willing sacrifice for Blood Magic is a slightly different ‘flavor’ to the Magic, regardless of outcome. This may have even longer reaching effects than just attracting the attention of Elder Gods and Vampire Cults.
As for Dragon references;
* Ghostwalker (Dollmaker/Icewing) is not in favor of metahumanity and frankly shows signs of madness and or senility IMO.
* Schwarzkopf, is an interesting option and has not made many, if any, matrix appearances in the main or core sourcebooks.
* Arleesh, another option and an admitted personal favorite of mine own, might have the interest but she has also shown to be on certain levels to be something of a traditionalist. As she is described as “young” in the scale of Great Dragons, she had a significant place in Big D’s mind because of what she is doing. Certainly a protector of the ‘lesser races’.
* Hestaby/Orange Queen ... a definite contender and while she may not be “an insider” to the Dragon Political Scene, she is still a force to be reckoned with and even Lung gave her a small token of respect in regards to her command of ritual magic. She also has not stopped her access to the Matrix, which has me considering the options and methods she is using for such talks.
* Celedyr/Script Diver, as the current Loremaster he has the political clout in Dragon society but if he tinkers around too much the Corporate Courts may decide to have him pay full or greater prices for all the CFD/Boston crap that he certainly is involved in.
* Lofwyr, uhm... he’s watching but I think he’s focusing on his own “kingdom” at this point still, especially with MCT at the top.
None of the other Greats have ever really been that involved, except Masaryk whom I left out because it is known he was doing some “Wyrm Talk” episodes, but that hasn’t been mentioned or updated in the timeline for years, both in real time and game timeline.