[SlowDeck]

I've been trying to find out what the lowest data cap on a plan available in the US is purely out of curiosity, but so far I'm failing.  I lived so far out in the woods years ago that I had to use satellite myself, and while it was pretty bad, it was nowhere even close to the point of making a 100mb download a problem.  Even the HughesNet site's plan with the lowest data cap is enough to download the SR5 pdf over 150 times in one month.  I don't want to say that I don't believe what you're saying, but I'm finding it quite difficult to believe that Comcast had you on a plan with a 25mb data cap four years ago without some kind of evidence.

And while I find this stuff kind of interesting in a general sense, I don't believe that the number of people for whom a 100mb download is a barrier to entry is high enough to base decisions off of.

That's because I wasn't on a plan like that. It's one of the many reasons I refuse to ever touch their service again.

As for that 5GB: You're thinking about the data wrong. It's not for just downloads; it's all data that gets sent to your computer while you browse. That even includes loading this webpage to read this post. Take a look at the lovely background image of these forums, note how big it is, then note it gets sent each time you move to a different page. And keep in mind it applies for every single image, such as when you stop by a site like Drivethrurpg or BattleShop to download a pdf. Notice how many images they have? Ever inspect those to see what the data size is for each one? I checked; the first image that loaded for me is 31KB. If each image is the same, then the combined 49 images for just PDFs alone use a combined total of 1.5MB just to visit the site. Note this is not counting anything else about the site; just the images of the PDFs. If you add in the page itself (21KB), the banners (225KB for the logo, around 58 for the advertisement at the bottom, 185KB for the other Drivethru sections, 26 and 25 for the Wargame and RPGNow banners), an additional 8KP per logo (being really generous here), and you've already used 3.5MB just on the front page. In addition, when you click into the Catalyst section, you're guaranteed to use a minimum of 2.9MB. That's already 6.4MB, and we've not even gotten to the Shadowrun page or the download yet. Let's say you only have to deal with 2MB on the next page (assuming you just go directly into the product itself) and use your figure of 100MB for the download... total MB is 108.4MB just to download, assuming you do nothing else that day; that comes out of a total MB per day of 178.6 (5GB divided by 28 days). That leaves you 70.2MB for the day before you start subtracting from tomorrow's portion.

If you want some fun, assign yourself a monthly limit of 5GB and a daily limit of 178.5MB, then keep track of how much you actually use per day without changing your current surfing habits (remember, you have to keep track of how much data every single webpage you visit uses). Remember that if you go over today, you are subtracting from tomorrow. And, for part of the experiment, let's add to the fun: Every time you go over the monthly limit, you must either slap yourself or stop all internet usage (the slap is to represent the fee for going over the limit).  After one day, let me know how far over the limit for the day that you went. Then try to calculate for yourself how many days in the month you have at that rate of usage before you have to choose between a slap or no internet usage. Then keep in mind that a download, such as this, is taking up a rather significant portion of how much time you have (most the limit for a single day) and that you will reach that limit even faster if you download this.

I know you don't feel they're significant enough in number; realistically, they're not. But, at the same time, the issue cited was not to discriminate against those who would rather wait for books, many of which are people for whom a PDF option is not realistic due to data caps. Plus, as Michael pointed out, this also potentially discriminates against stores that actually sell those books. Now, if Bull were to decide it's okay to discriminate against those people, then everything I just said on this topic about data caps becomes moot, since it won't actually matter, what Michael said doesn't matter, and we can move on. All I'm doing is pointing out that, for some people, it really is an issue. Even when they have caps that say that it shouldn't be.

[PeterSmith]

As for that 5GB: You're thinking about the data wrong. It's not for just downloads; it's all data that gets sent to your computer while you browse.

You do know you described downloading, right?

[SlowDeck]

As for that 5GB: You're thinking about the data wrong. It's not for just downloads; it's all data that gets sent to your computer while you browse.

You do know you described downloading, right?

I know. But, I'm using more common-use definitions for the purposes of this discussion. Most people I meet, when they think of downloads they think of things like PDFs, music videos, data files, or video games; things where you initiate the information transfer. They don't realize that every aspect of the internet is a combination of downloading and uploading.

[martinchaen]

Guys, lets keep the bandwidth discussion for another topic, ok? As has already been pointed out, this might have been the case 10 years ago (or 4, if you live in the boondocks, apparently), but it's mostly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[Tenlaar]

Guys, lets keep the bandwidth discussion for another topic, ok? As has already been pointed out, this might have been the case 10 years ago (or 4, if you live in the boondocks, apparently), but it's mostly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

While I appreciate back-seat moderating as much as the next guy, SlowDeck is making a claim that is directly related to the discussion at hand - that being reasons for further delays on Missions Legality for books that have been released in PDF format.  Namely, this...

But, at the same time, the issue cited was not to discriminate against those who would rather wait for books, many of which are people for whom a PDF option is not realistic due to data caps.

As somebody who has literally at no point since I was 5 years old in 1988 not had a personal computer , I am fully away of how data usage works, and I feel that this claim is entirely unfounded. 

[martinchaen]

I felt moderation was in order because the claim was made, a counter argument was put forth, and that was really all that was needed for someone like Bull to comment back. Drugging the subject out serves little purpose, to my mind.

I do agree with you, though, just for clarity; I've got a 5gb cap on my phone and I rarely get up over 4, but this is a topic for another discussion as far as I'm concerned. Since I brought the subject up, I also reserve the right to say enough is enough, and request that further discussion be taken elsewhere. Entirely up to you what you do with that request, of course...

[SlowDeck]

Actually, my claim is not that it is a reason why the delay is such, but that it is why it is some people do not use PDFs. The reason why it is that the delay is continued was stated by Bull here:

Karma:  Unfortunately, the rule stands.  Mainly to keep the playing field level for all players.  Many SHadowrun players do not buy PDF books (There's a surprisingly large subsection of players who barely even look at the PDF offerings or even pay attention to release dates and upcoming books.  They just pick things up when they show up at their FLGS.  Thankfully, this subsection is shrinking, but still).   Allowing these products earlier based on the PDF date and not the print street date, especially around convention season when we get the most people playing, is basically telling players that they HAVE to get the PDFs if they want to stay competitive with their fellow players. 

I'm all for more PDF sales, but ultimately, this isn't fair to all our players.

I was highlighting why it is some people do not buy the PDFs, not clarifying that it is a reason why the current policy must continue. And while you do feel it is unfounded, I know a number of people who have stated that exact reason as to why they don't. And one of them is in my face-to-face group, so this isn't something that stopped four years ago. Thus, the point of the experiment I posted was to show the mentality of the people that are saying that; they're literally counting every single megabyte and budgeting their internet usage on a level that most people don't even do with their personal finances.

So, Martin is right in saying it's not actually directly related; it's more of a reply to a claim I know to be unfounded in relation to a call to change the policy. And it's not to challenge what Martin said, either.

In any case, the request was made and is reasonable. I'm abiding by it. After all, if I need to win an internet argument that badly, then I need to put the computer away and go outside  I hope they finally did something about that vile daystar...

[Bull]

Well, keep in mind, 30 days from Street Date is CGL's street date, and that applies globally.  It doesn't matter when the print book will be available in Germany, or Australia, or Japan, or Latveria.  Once that 30 days pings, it's a go for everyone.  So that means the PDFs are then valid.

There are a number of reasons we do this.  Fairness is the aspect that applies to you guys.  But it also gives us plenty of time (in theory) to review the book and see if there's anything that we need to tweak or flag for Missions.  Plus with Print products, sometimes (Not always, not nearly as often as I'd like, but sometimes) we can actually make errata changes between the PDF release and the book hitting the Printers.  So this way we know we're working from the same source as well.

[KarmaInferno]

My concern wasn't the format, really.

It's the delay.

It would be one thing if the street date was published, but Run & Gun dropped two months ago and Catalyst has STILL yet to publish a print edition street date, or even a ballpark figure.

What happens if this becomes endemic? We've seen significant production delays from Catalyst before. How long after the PDF release is it reasonable to make folks who bought and paid for the digital version wait?

I'm not even saying two months is necessarily excessive, but there has to eventually be a point where one has to say, "You know, this is too much".


-k

[Michael Chandra]

On the other hand this also gives Missions players time to save up nuyen and karma for buying the new stuff. Plus they can still use all of the material in home-games. Now that R&G is out in PDF my own campaign is switching to SR5.

I agree that the lack of a street date is unsettling, and I hope it won't happen with the other books, but I prefer fairness to those that want the physical books and not something electronic. Forcing them to get the PDFs to have the same abilities as their fellow players sounds rather unfair. Not to mention rules. "Wait, you can run from grenades now?"

[PeterSmith]

It would be one thing if the street date was published, but Run & Gun dropped two months ago and Catalyst has STILL yet to publish a print edition street date, or even a ballpark figure.

This is SOP. It has been SOP for a number of years, it's not something we plan on addressing internally. Until we have the street date in hand we are not going to speculate on what that date is going to be.

[SlowDeck]

It would be one thing if the street date was published, but Run & Gun dropped two months ago and Catalyst has STILL yet to publish a print edition street date, or even a ballpark figure.

This is SOP. It has been SOP for a number of years, it's not something we plan on addressing internally. Until we have the street date in hand we are not going to speculate on what that date is going to be.

Can I just say how much some of us appreciate this? The lack of getting hopes up before the street date is set in stone actually makes Catalyst one of the most reliable companies on their street dates.

That said, the delay on book releases does indicate a problem, but this looks like a problem being caused by the printer or distributor. After all, everyone who has a copy of the PDF knows Catalyst did their end of the work.

[PeterSmith]

Can I just say how much some of us appreciate this? The lack of getting hopes up before the street date is set in stone actually makes Catalyst one of the most reliable companies on their street dates.

We heard a lot of complaints from FLGS owners and buyers, which is why the policy was enacted. Truth be told, I hated the idea at first. But once I saw the impact of it, I was happy we went this route.

That said, the delay on book releases does indicate a problem, but this looks like a problem being caused by the printer or distributor. After all, everyone who has a copy of the PDF knows Catalyst did their end of the work.

I'm not sure where Run & Gun is getting printed. At the end of the day we're still a company that has small print run orders, we don't get a lot of priority. Also, if the books are being printed in the Far East...well...that boat from China isn't called a slow boat out of irony.

[Foxworthy]

I'm all for more PDF sales, but ultimately, this isn't fair to all our players.

Well the way your doing it now isn't makes me feel like it's not fair to pdf users. Some of us will have to wait three months or more for content we paid for to become legal. So if you're going for fair, I don't think you hit that mark. In fact it feels to me that you're treating people who buy the pdf's as less then equals when it comes to sales.

It makes me feel like my pdf purchases aren't valued by the company. Which means I will most likely not continue to purchase Shadowrun products.

I understand your reasoning, but I disagree 100% and the only way for me as a consumer to make my feelings known is to tell you and to stop buying the companies product until things change.

[Fedifensor]

Below is a work-in-progress list and not official or any such thing:

Allowed Books/PDFs
ShadowRun 5th Edition Main Rulebook
Assassin's Primer
Gun H(e)aven 3
Sail Away Sweet Sister

Disallowed Books/PDFs
Run & Gun
Stolen Souls
Bullets and Bandages

I'd like to see something like this on an official Shadowrun Missions webpage, with the following information for each book:
* Date of PDF release
* Date of physical book release (TBD - To Be Determined is an acceptable answer)
* Date legal for Shadowrun Missions (Not Legal is an acceptable answer)