Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: stuh42l on <08-11-19/1051:24>
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I am trying to parse 6E and I can't find a limit to how much you can Amp up damage or increase area on a spell. Obviously the total drain is a factor, but if there is no limit then a mage willing to kill himself could fireball all of Seattle into ash with a single spell and that doesn't sound right.
If anyone can show me a limit to this I would be grateful.
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No explicit limit but I doubt a gm would allow you to cast at thousands of drain.
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Sure but relying on GM fiat is a bad precedent for a ruleset no?
Magic is only going to get MORE powerful once the splat train starts rolling in. Free amps, more ways to reduce drain, etc. We all know its coming.
As it stands having no limits means mages can already blow out the entire first floor of building and set them on fire, etc and still walk away from it.
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As it stands having no limits means mages can already blow out the entire first floor of building and set them on fire, etc and still walk away from it.
As if it's not possible to overcast F12 Lightning or Fireballs for little or no drain in 5e?
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As if it's not possible to overcast F12 Lightning or Fireballs for little or no drain in 5e?
It's a valid statement, both comparatively to 5e, and stand alone for the edition being balanced against itself.
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GM Fiat applies to Edge abuse anyway so it's an inherent part of the system. But yeah an explicit limit is needed.
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As it stands having no limits means mages can already blow out the entire first floor of building and set them on fire, etc and still walk away from it.
As if it's not possible to overcast F12 Lightning or Fireballs for little or no drain in 5e?
Right, except the area was still LIMITED. This is allowing me to cast a fireball to cover a theoretically INFINITE area. Even now as a mage I can firebomb an entire first floor of a skyscraper and walk away with a single spell.
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In 5e F12 gives you most of a city block. A crater of devastation nearly 50 meters across.
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In 5e F12 gives you most of a city block. A crater of devastation nearly 50 meters across.
Right, and now that mere limit no longer applies. Nor the pesky limitations of only being F12.
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Sure but relying on GM fiat is a bad precedent for a ruleset no?
Every game I've ever played has relied on GM fiat to overwrite any rules if it didn't make sense in the story being told. Most rulebooks actually (used to?) put it in the rules that GM has final say on anything. Just because the rules doesn't say it, doesn't mean the GM has to agree with the over-zealous player.
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GM Fiat applies to Edge abuse anyway so it's an inherent part of the system. But yeah an explicit limit is needed.
Up to Magic Rating seems like the easy answer. But it should be explicit, otherwise a suicidal mage would RAW be able to AOE the entire Giasphere. Seems likely that behavior is unintended.
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GM Fiat applies to Edge abuse anyway so it's an inherent part of the system. But yeah an explicit limit is needed.
Up to Magic Rating seems like the easy answer. But it should be explicit, otherwise a suicidal mage would RAW be able to AOE the entire Giasphere. Seems likely that behavior is unintended.
I don't know. Maybe there is no limit, just in case your runner wants to risk another Great Ghost Dance. Ideally, the no limit then allows for high magic rituals like that.
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I'd put the limit at drain equal to all 3 kinds of conditions combined or something.
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I kind of like how Spirits were done. Magicx3. Call it "Astral To Material Threshold", the limit a living conduit is capable of channeling Astral(i.e. using magic). Anything beyond this limit, the conduit loses the spell/summon.
Virtue of this, especially if this gets added to magic splat book, is you could tie multiple magical things to it. Summoning? ATMTx3. Amp Ups? Can do ATMTx3 ramps (whether dmg, area, or some other form. Each would be tallied together. So at Magic 6, you couldn't do 18 dmg, 18 area increases, it would be more like 9 dmg increases, 9 area increases).
Could tie traits and meta-magics that modified that over it's base calculation of Magicx3. Could even go into negative ATMT metamagics that traded the ATMT for say, guaranteed drain resistance ("By buffering yourself against the negative physical effects of Drain, you are able to draw upon less of the Astral" [ATMT is halved, mage reduces any drain by 1/4 of drain resistance die pool before rolling to resist drain]. I see a lot of interesting trade offs that could be made by making a calculated magical attribute such as this.
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Note to self: start my houserule collection. Put the Mx3 Amp restriction on it.
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I don't know. Maybe there is no limit, just in case your runner wants to risk another Great Ghost Dance. Ideally, the no limit then allows for high magic rituals like that.
Well, except a loooot of people died to power the Great Ghost Dance, not just the one caster. In theory, as RAW in 6e, only one shaman would have had to have died (notwithstanding markelphoenix's nifty houserule suggestion from a few posts back.)
Actually, thinking about it, how did Daniel Howling Coyote survive when the ritual killed so many other participants?! I never really considered that before.
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I don't know. Maybe there is no limit, just in case your runner wants to risk another Great Ghost Dance. Ideally, the no limit then allows for high magic rituals like that.
Well, except a loooot of people died to power the Great Ghost Dance, not just the one caster. In theory, as RAW in 6e, only one shaman would have had to have died (notwithstanding markelphoenix's nifty houserule suggestion from a few posts back.)
Actually, thinking about it, how did Daniel Howling Coyote survive when the ritual killed so many other participants?! I never really considered that before.
Because the Great Ghost Dance was basically a form of sacrificial blood magic fueled by the spiritual energy of willing sacrifices. Howling Coyote was directing the mana and so didn't sacrifice himself.
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Because the Great Ghost Dance was basically a form of sacrificial blood magic fueled by the spiritual energy of willing sacrifices. Howling Coyote was directing the mana and so didn't sacrifice himself.
Maybe that's what they want you to believe, chummer ;)
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Because the Great Ghost Dance was basically a form of sacrificial blood magic fueled by the spiritual energy of willing sacrifices. Howling Coyote was directing the mana and so didn't sacrifice himself.
Maybe that's what they want you to believe, chummer ;)
Sam Verner (Twist) survived the second one as well.
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Because the Great Ghost Dance was basically a form of sacrificial blood magic fueled by the spiritual energy of willing sacrifices. Howling Coyote was directing the mana and so didn't sacrifice himself.
Maybe that's what they want you to believe, chummer ;)
It was all spelled out pretty clear when Howling Coyote explained it to Twist so he could do a second one. Short of outright calling it blood magic anyway.
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Because the Great Ghost Dance was basically a form of sacrificial blood magic fueled by the spiritual energy of willing sacrifices. Howling Coyote was directing the mana and so didn't sacrifice himself.
Maybe that's what they want you to believe, chummer ;)
Sam Verner (Twist) survived the second one as well.
Though he burned his magic out.
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I don't magic much, but as I understand it, the order of operations is Pick Spell --> Amp Up and/or Increase AoE --> Spell goes off --> Resist drain.
Why not just swap the spell going off and resisting drain? If the power of the spell renders you unconscious or dead, then it doesn't manifest.
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I don't magic much, but as I understand it, the order of operations is Pick Spell --> Amp Up and/or Increase AoE --> Spell goes off --> Resist drain.
Why not just swap the spell going off and resisting drain? If the power of the spell renders you unconscious or dead, then it doesn't manifest.
Horrible idea. Player should be able to make a sacrifice play to save team. Knows going to die, so does a 9P fireball to clear out enemies. He fails Drain and dies, but saved team.
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In this case it can be a 9,000,000,000,000 DV fireball!
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I don't magic much, but as I understand it, the order of operations is Pick Spell --> Amp Up and/or Increase AoE --> Spell goes off --> Resist drain.
Why not just swap the spell going off and resisting drain? If the power of the spell renders you unconscious or dead, then it doesn't manifest.
Horrible idea. Player should be able to make a sacrifice play to save team. Knows going to die, so does a 9P fireball to clear out enemies. He fails Drain and dies, but saved team.
Or, know your limits and gamble on dumping your Edge into your soak pool to avoid dying.
And no, nuking a whole building as a "sacrifice play" should not be an option. If the amount of magic you're channeling is enough to kill you, it should just kill you. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 nuyen. Do not do the thing. Just die. Maybe explode into glitter and mystical confetti.
Mages are already overpowered as it is, and being able to bring about an apocalyptic level event with the chance of passing out or dying is ludicrous. No other character type has any options remotely as powerful, and for good reason. Street Sams don't get tactical nuke rocket launchers, Deckers don't have access to Ice-9, and Riggers don't get building-sized mechas, all because they don't scale with the intended power level of the game.
An Elf Aspected Magician who has focus in Sorcery can leave chargen with Magic 6, Sorcery 7, Willpower 5, and Charisma 8, and have a force 4 Power Focus. That would give them a base dice pool of 17 (5.7 hits) per attack, and a base drain pool of 13 (4.3 hits). Even if you Amp Up for 3, that's only 12 drain (not enough to kill you) on a Fireball. You would have to Amp Up for 10 or more to be lethal without edge use.
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If there was no limit to how far you could push your spells then the planet would have been cleansed of humidity by now by Toxic Destroyer Magician going global scale AE and super nova damage to kill off everyone including themselves.
Toxic mages are mad enough to do so even without blood magic.
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Horrible idea. Player should be able to make a sacrifice play to save team. Knows going to die, so does a 9P fireball to clear out enemies. He fails Drain and dies, but saved team.
Strongly agree, both thematically and because that’s how it’s always worked in the past (IIRC). The problem to be fixed here is how 6e apparently doesn't place any limits on Amp Up.
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Horrible idea. Player should be able to make a sacrifice play to save team. Knows going to die, so does a 9P fireball to clear out enemies. He fails Drain and dies, but saved team.
Strongly agree, both thematically and because that’s how it’s always worked in the past (IIRC). The problem to be fixed here is how 6e apparently doesn't place any limits on Amp Up.
Agreed, I still think my suggestion earlier in thread would solve most of concerns. Magicx3 or Magicx2 if you want to be super conservative.
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Aye, I think that's a very reasonable idea.
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If there was no limit to how far you could push your spells then the planet would have been cleansed of humidity.
Toxics confirmed to prefer a dry heat.
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Horrible idea. Player should be able to make a sacrifice play to save team. Knows going to die, so does a 9P fireball to clear out enemies. He fails Drain and dies, but saved team.
Strongly agree, both thematically and because that’s how it’s always worked in the past (IIRC). The problem to be fixed here is how 6e apparently doesn't place any limits on Amp Up.
Agreed, I still think my suggestion earlier in thread would solve most of concerns. Magicx3 or Magicx2 if you want to be super conservative.
I’d go limit of magic per category it can be amped. So if you have a 6 magic and area and damage can be amped up to 6 in each. I don’t think anything is gained by spells with a amped damage of 21 or something. Yeah that’s just grenade range but that’s more a function of grenades being too high in damage.
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Horrible idea. Player should be able to make a sacrifice play to save team. Knows going to die, so does a 9P fireball to clear out enemies. He fails Drain and dies, but saved team.
Strongly agree, both thematically and because that’s how it’s always worked in the past (IIRC). The problem to be fixed here is how 6e apparently doesn't place any limits on Amp Up.
Agreed, I still think my suggestion earlier in thread would solve most of concerns. Magicx3 or Magicx2 if you want to be super conservative.
I’d go limit of magic per category it can be amped. So if you have a 6 magic and area and damage can be amped up to 6 in each. I don’t think anything is gained by spells with a amped damage of 21 or something. Yeah that’s just grenade range but that’s more a function of grenades being too high in damage.
Also reasonable. General consensus seems to be, "Tie the limit to the Magic Rating in some way." I still like the Magicx2 or Magicx3 for the "Go out with a bang!" effect. If you're ramping up that high, you're guaranteed to off yourself.
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Less bookkeeping if each 'amp up category' is limited to your magic rating.
If your magic rating is 3 then you can amp up area up to 3 times and you can amp up damage up to 3 times. Simple. This is also already +9 Drain and will likely kill you. Is more really needed?
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Less bookkeeping if each 'amp up category' is limited to your magic rating.
If your magic rating is 3 then you can amp up area up to 3 times and you can amp up damage up to 3 times. Simple. This is also already +9 Drain and will likely kill you. Is more really needed?
If the goal is a sacrifice play to save your team, knowing that you're all dead if you don't, yes.
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Less bookkeeping if each 'amp up category' is limited to your magic rating.
If your magic rating is 3 then you can amp up area up to 3 times and you can amp up damage up to 3 times. Simple. This is also already +9 Drain and will likely kill you. Is more really needed?
If the goal is a sacrifice play to save your team, knowing that you're all dead if you don't, yes.
Just because you decide you are making a sacrifice play doesn't mean you should get narrative omnipotence. Assuming a fairly standard 6 magic 6 damage amps brings it to 9 base damage for indirect spells which is more than assault cannon round, and a 8 meter radius if you also amp the area 6, and that would be +18drain for a total of 23 drain. That's one hell of a sacrifice play that will total almost all enemy opposition in its area.
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If the goal is a sacrifice play to save your team, knowing that you're all dead if you don't, yes.
This is why you take that 5 edge action
....or burn an edge for smackdown
Or both.
Besides adding both 12 meter to the AoE and 6 to the damage will probably get you killed anyway ;-)
...and a 8 meter radius if you also amp the area 6...
6 amp on area will increase radius from 2 meters to 14 meters (or a total of 28 meters across) - which is pretty huge.
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If the goal is a sacrifice play to save your team, knowing that you're all dead if you don't, yes.
This is why you take that 5 edge action
....or burn an edge for smackdown
Or both.
Besides adding both 12 meter to the AoE and 6 to the damage will probably get you killed anyway ;-)
...and a 8 meter radius if you also amp the area 6...
6 amp on area will increase radius from 2 meters to 14 meters (or a total of 28 meters across) - which is pretty huge.
Still 2 Meters shy of the mage duel circle from No Future :-p