[Charybdis]

Also a question about my character. I made him on the princible, (this is probably something i should post on that character creation board huh?) on using pretty much only pistols. Is a 20 Dice pool pretty good? (This was before I saw the Adapt Gunslinger which I am now interested in but i don't think the DM will allow me to remake my character so aw well.) If your curious how it adds up to 20, it's (+7 Pistols,yes i took the feat for that, and then +9 for agility. Enhanced with bioware for that. Then I have specialization on heavy pistols which i use most of the time. +2, and then +2 for smartlink. Total of 20, if I edge 27)

A) Pistols are great, and I'm a big fan of Heavy Pistols.
B) 20 dice is excellent, you should be fine
C) I'm curious as to how you have Edge 7 and Agility 9.  If you're human, Edge 7 is the maximum attribute, as is Agility 6 (+3 for augmentation). However by RAW, you can only max 1 attribute at Chargen, and even doing that costs 25BP for the final point.
- Althout, if you took the Lucky quality (raise max edge) you could have maxxed agility...or been an Elf and Maxxed Edge... but still it's a strange combination of upper attribute limits, hence the query.

[Zilfer]

Ok, I'll admit to some confusion as well.

As far as I read it seemed that EDGE wasn't a counted attribute. For it is a seperate thing out of the usual 200 BP for building attributes. If i remember correctly. However maybe this will be solved when I mention that i am a Human and thus start out with 2 Edge. If i took Lucky like my friend did I would have 8 Edge like him. Which really, throughout the session me and him are known to be crazy with our edge. XD

We play however by the rule that from reading the board topics seems most people don't do. Recharge after every session. You guys do it by mission it seems, though most of the missions we are on only last one session so. *shrugs*

Anyways further inquiry welcome helps me get a grasp, and that is very welcome.

[Charybdis]

You mind sharing with a new DM some of your devious villians and what they've done or how they were introduced/you came up with them? If so it would be appreciated. Very much so.

On a side note, I think I under use shotguns. Not once have I given an NPC a shotgun. Thoughts on this? Are they as deadly close range as they are in real life? thanks!

To the unarmoured, Shotguns and their Flechette ammo are pretty much instant bad-day, possibly death if using a Semi-Automatic follow up shot.

With SR4 Armour though, Flechette ammo becomes less useful very quickly (unless you can get nasty Forbidden stuff like Teflon Flechette, but that's up there with Armour Piercing rounds, so is very hard to get).

However you can do bad things with Shotgun slugs, Shock-lock rounds and other assorted large-calibre special rounds, so Shotguns have a lot of flexibility, from the Sawn-off SA Defiant, to the OMG FA Assault Shotguns.... it's a useful skill...

[Zilfer]

Actually thus far i've done fine with my Sliver gun which is mostly my favorite gun but i do have a Colt America I believe just in case. It's probably however because of my 20 Dice pool however. I have the option of getting 2 (20 dice pool) shots off or 4 (10 dice pool shots off) I have Ambidexterity. Usually aim for the same person if not i get a -2 dice moddifer for shooting someone different if i'm not mistaken.

Though this character truthfully may not be used again for awhile, because when we played learning the game, we did some pretty crazy stuff being noobs and the DM wanted to start a new campaign if we got serious about shadowrun. So he made up a mission to get the main characters of the craziness and noterioty out of the picture. (I truthfully never killed a single innocent, and fired maybe 2 shots in those campaigns which for a combat oriented person is probably pretty amazing.) Anyways, it's guilty by accociation i guess. So this guy the 'Mountain that Moves' asked one of the newer shadowrunners that he new was connected to us to show up for a job. He used a name besides his Merc name to disguise who it was. Needless to say it said come weaponless. EVERYONE BUT ME didn't bring a weapon. >.> I brought my light pistols just in case. XD Well it was do this mission or have a gun fight with armed guards and a huge troll all of which had weapons and I'm the only one on my team with a weapon. Great, so we do start the mission for next week.

[Charybdis]

Ok, I'll admit to some confusion as well.

As far as I read it seemed that EDGE wasn't a counted attribute. For it is a seperate thing out of the usual 200 BP for building attributes. If i remember correctly. However maybe this will be solved when I mention that i am a Human and thus start out with 2 Edge. If i took Lucky like my friend did I would have 8 Edge like him. Which really, throughout the session me and him are known to be crazy with our edge. XD

We play however by the rule that from reading the board topics seems most people don't do. Recharge after every session. You guys do it by mission it seems, though most of the missions we are on only last one session so. *shrugs*

Anyways further inquiry welcome helps me get a grasp, and that is very welcome.

Just remember that Lucky doesn't actually GIVE another point of edge, it just raises the maximum. As such you still need to spend the BP to get the attribute that high as well.

I don't have my books handy, and while you're probably right in that Edge (and Magic/Resonance) are exempt from the normal 200BP spend limits due to being special attributes, they are still attributes, and as such only 1 of them can be maxxed on any PC.

[Charybdis]

Actually thus far i've done fine with my Sliver gun which is mostly my favorite gun but i do have a Colt America I believe just in case. It's probably however because of my 20 Dice pool however. I have the option of getting 2 (20 dice pool) shots off or 4 (10 dice pool shots off) I have Ambidexterity. Usually aim for the same person if not i get a -2 dice moddifer for shooting someone different if i'm not mistaken.

A) Sliverguns are nice. Make sure you have something to negate recoil penalties though.
B) When splitting Firearms for Ambidexterity, it's only the Attribute plus Skill pool that get's split. Ergo its Skill 7 plus attribute 9 plus specialisation 2 = 18 dice, divided by 2 is 9.

Smartlinks cannot be used when Dual-wielding, so can't be counted in the dice pool. (can't remember where the rule-book page, but it's along the lines of:
'two gun attacks negate the bonus from laser sights and smartlinks')

Of course, Vision mods, range etc can eat into that very quickly, but it's still respectable (I have a dual-wielding gun-bunny PC as well... I understand the appeal )

[Zilfer]

Ah I see. I'll keep that in mind about smart links then. If that is so then I guess it's ok because the DM of that game didn't notice or let it slide. He's more knowledgable than me, though that may become moot here because he's rusty at it and i'm starting to DM it more than him. XD

I also edited my previous post with the start of the story of why my character isn't probably playable for awhile.

So we get knocked out by some drug wake up on a plane headed into Ares technology sector in New York city. (fun... right probably gonna die) They provide us Dead people's ID's that Ares don't know are dead yet. We head in with a single man on the inside and have to retrieve an old fashion disc. (which later found out had a recording of Dunkle*however it's spelt* getting assassinated by Harlequin. More on that later). We go in head down to the stairs. THe plan is to use a furnace shoot where data gets destroyed to get the disc out of there. The man on the inside would then go downstairs and retrieve it from the furnace and send it back to the Mountain that Moves so we could get him wanting to kill us off our back. Well we had down to that floor the door is bolt locked, and on top of that a metal detector. Well one of us had Plastic bullets. (miracle how the hell did she know we were going to need those?) anyways then i gave her my pistols and walked in)

This place looks like a library almost with a table and a woman with golden eyes. She greets me kindly enough, which is weird. She says this place hasn't been been entered in like 27 years some odd hours, minutes, seconds, ect. I am really thinkin this chick is really an AI, and she insists I come in and bring my friends. >.> weird lady. Asking her she often repeats herself, asking who she is. She says she's the "Archivist". Like to Archive something. Food magically appears on the table (this should have put me on alert but i thought it was just a hologram and she wanted to bring my defenses down. She was creepy that was for sure.

Anyways i looked for the file i needed to grab and there was a force field protecting it. My other friend came into the room and was looking around. THe door shut behind her. I wasn't getting anywhere with this lady so i told my friend to shoot her. She calmly says "You don't want to do this... come on (insert characters REAL NAME not fake sin or anything like that) you'll only get one." 1 Warning that is. My friend tried to light her up but her dice pool was a little rediculous and he rolled for her reaching out towards me. So i'm like... FUCK as he rolls dice against me standing next pretty close to her. She just touches me. I scramble over to my friend grab my pistols. Try to say something bad ass. "I'll get more than 1!"

I shot my pistols 4 dice pools of ten. Got a 3, 4, 4, and 5. Which the DM dodged first one, second one he spent edge once. And then on the 5 he spent edge twice to reroll non hits. Bastard. anyways missed the lady and then she came up and literally bent my guns with a dice pool of 40. <.< yeah.... he used edge on that as well and got 26 hits. I decided to save my last edge.

More talking with the lady and found out she was supposed to give me the disc to be sent down the furnace and that I was  payment for the information we were obtaining. <.< The mountain the Moves promised this dragon "Companions" for the next 13 years. At which we were free to go from that room.

Don't suppose anyone's got any ideas on escape.

Something I'm going to bring up with that DM however, that I read great dragons while in Human form are weaker than the stats they list so I think i should have had a better chance than that. Aw well. I got free access to the matrix while i'm in here, and the DM told me I also had access to places in the Trix where you had to hack your way in. <.< Still want to escape however. xD

[Charybdis]

A) How old are you people. Lady is trying to give you a job, but you want to shoot her? Come on....
B) If a great dragon is in human form, it may indeed be weaker than it normally is, but is never unprotected and is always going to beat you. Great Dragons are the unbeatable foes of the SR4 world. A shadowrunner without an army and a tank for support should pretty much flee in terror and scrape for forgiveness. It's only through GM nicety that your PC is not dead.
C) How did you get your guns past the metal detector? On one hand you handed them in...next you're shooting them...what am I missing here?
D) She didn't actually need to dodge. Great dragons normally have enough magical defenses and edge-twisting powers that basically you were screwed from the beginning.
E) So right now you're in a luxury holding cell, waiting for the next component. Fair enough. You're lucky you're not dead and rolling up a new character...

[Zilfer]

A) How old are you people. Lady is trying to give you a job, but you want to shoot her? Come on....
B) If a great dragon is in human form, it may indeed be weaker than it normally is, but is never unprotected and is always going to beat you. Great Dragons are the unbeatable foes of the SR4 world. A shadowrunner without an army and a tank for support should pretty much flee in terror and scrape for forgiveness. It's only through GM nicety that your PC is not dead.
C) How did you get your guns past the metal detector? On one hand you handed them in...next you're shooting them...what am I missing here?
D) She didn't actually need to dodge. Great dragons normally have enough magical defenses and edge-twisting powers that basically you were screwed from the beginning.
E) So right now you're in a luxury holding cell, waiting for the next component. Fair enough. You're lucky you're not dead and rolling up a new character...

A) Not really giving me a job. I don't get paid for it, XD. I tried to shoot her because at that time she wouldn't give up the information and I saw no other way to get it. (apparently all I had to do was ask for a copy and not the original which after my shots failed I opted to sit down at her nice table and eat the food. What other choice did I have since I want to save my last pistol in case i need it. On another note it was supposed to capture the PC's with Notoriety of 3 and 4. (again me guilty by association I was the common sense of the group it seems.) He failed in capturing the 8 edge guy who was busy that weekend. >.> Still want to break out of that Magic/full matrix room. xD
B) Yes I understand, that he's only alive because of DM nicety however I find hard to believe my PC would just sit there for 13 years even if he has access to an archive full of knowledge and Ares secrets. xD He's sort of a free spirit so he'd be trying to leave all the time.
C) I handed them in because i thought an alarm would go off in the building. Well the lady said she controlled that. (thats when i thought she was a robot.)
D) xD I guess, if I had tried a single pistol I think it would have been different for that dodging however. XD I had the dragon spend 4 edge in one round. If only the guy with 8 edge had been there. XD
E) Lucky yes, sort of. I still have to use a different character. <.< If i was in that situation i'd want to blow my brains out. XD

[kirk]

OK, I'm confused.  Here's the rule from SR4A:

Players may not spend more than half their total BP on Physical
and Mental attributes (for a standard 400 BP character, this means a
cap of 200 BP). Also, characters cannot have more than one attribute
at their natural maximum. This measure prevents overspending in attributes
and ensures that characters are well rounded.

That's under Physical and Mental, page 82, of character creation. There's a separate heading for Edge, Essence, and Magic/Resonance.

Because of the separation, I read this as meaning I can only have one 6 in my physical/mental attributes, but Edge and Magic/Resonance are separate.

Yet I can see the interpretation Charybdis had as well.

Is there an official statement somewhere clarifying this? I've looked and don't see any such thing.

(Apologies if Charybdis is official. I 'R' Newby.)

[Zilfer]

^that's what I thought as well.

[beowulf_of_wa]

edge separate is how i'm running my campaign, in part because the chargen i'm using counts edge as "not a stat"

[Zilfer]

edge separate is how i'm running my campaign, in part because the chargen i'm using counts edge as "not a stat"

That's how I'll be doing mine unless I find something in the book that says otherwise, and then I might just make it a house rule. I don't think "luck" should be quantified as an attribute. Who knows however.

Was reading more of the book today, and I found Initiatives for Mages. Does this have to be done after the Mage is created and thus have to spend Karma or can this be made during the building process. O.o' either way i see that it raises your Magic stat as above 6 sort of.

Does that mean it is possible to cast over 12 Force spells? Which I assumed were the maximum and that's dangerous enough as is because 12 damage coming at you is daunting. XD

[Charybdis]

Was reading more of the book today, and I found Initiatives for Mages. Does this have to be done after the Mage is created and thus have to spend Karma or can this be made during the building process. O.o' either way i see that it raises your Magic stat as above 6 sort of.

Does that mean it is possible to cast over 12 Force spells? Which I assumed were the maximum and that's dangerous enough as is because 12 damage coming at you is daunting. XD

Some GM's allow BP to be spent on Initiation at CharGen, but it's not an official rule.

Normally Initiation has to wait until in-Game Karma can be spent, and it's expensive.

Yes, it allows Magic to be raised above 6 (well, well above 6). There are Legendary runners out there with Magic 10, allowing them to Overcast at F20 should they choose.

I have a Magician PC currently with Magic 8, and casting F15 is the highest spell cast to date.... Even with Centering and Absorption metamagics, it still hurt.... next thing on the Agenda is saving 45 karma to raise Magic to 9, but it's a long journey to do so....

[JoeNapalm]

Nothing wrong with a pistolier, but the first few "Rules of a Gunfight", as I learned them, are as follows:

Rule 1: Bring a gun.

Rule 2: If possible, bring a long gun.

Rule 3: Bring your friends.

Rule 4: Have your friends bring long guns.


But hey...style over substance is a core tenant of Cyberpunk.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist