[Backfire]

Ok this has probably been discussed already but here goes. Does anyone have any theories on why the magic level in the shadowrun world fluctuates? Is it natural, is it a side effect of dragon ritualistic magic? Anyone have any ideas?

[The_Gun_Nut]

It's like the tides.  As time goes by, the different planes get "closer" or "further" away from each other.   The "closer" they are, the more energy can be exchanged between them (i.e. magic).

When they get close enough to our plane, then the Horrors can bridge the gap and breach the fabric between worlds and enter ours to devour all living things.

[Ultra Violet]

The last magic age was artificially extended by the Atlanteans, they created some magical devices that stored or stabilized mana and caped the magical potential alive. But it did only worked a couple of centuries (maybe a millennium) but on one day Atlantis was lost. And that was the End of the 4th world and the beginning of the 5th world...

Here is the official version: http://www.shadowrun4.com/fiction/fiction1.shtml

[thalandar]

Actually, I heard that artifacts were the key to hidden caches of magical knowledge-magically knowledge that survived from the 4th world to the sixth world.

[The_Gun_Nut]

The magical devices that UV is referring to are three towers made of pure orichalcum approximately 100 feet tall.

So not an artifact, per se.

[Backfire]

Do you know what book the three towers are mentioned in???

[Fizzygoo]

Here is the official version

< IC > Ha! Erhan and his pro-elven propaganda speech given to aristocratic brats to fuel their warm fuzzies is always trotted out as an example of elven superiority. Even if that old coot did live for thousands of years it didn't do him any good, unless your going to show that he invented the silicon chip in some cave with Gilgamesh and Moses. < /IC >

At its essence, the Cycle of Magic makes for a great meta-story element and it weaves well with Aztec, Maya, Aboriginal (Dreamtime), Greek (Plato's Atlantis), Celtic/Irish (arrival of the Tuatha Dé Danann) and even Judeo-Christian (Genesis 6:4, I Enoch, Revelations) and others' myths, legends, and texts.

Like The_Gun_Nut said, it's like the tides, but the fun part is that each and every culture and sub-culture will have their own interpretation...which is why there probably will never be an official "why" it occurs in cycles...unless some MIT&T researcher makes some major metaplanar-theory breakthrough. The tides are caused by the gravitational play between the Moon and Earth (and to a lesser extent the Sun), so with mana being the tidal waters what is the force (gravity-like) that manipulates mana (or the astral-physical locality) and, even more intriguing, where does that force originate from?

[agustaaquila]

Well, that assumes that you can study magic scientifically, and while the hermetic traditions might say this is so all the shamanistic  traditions will disagree.  The basic split over the hermetic/shamanistic magic worldviews means that there will be at least two explanations for why magic comes and goes.

[FastJack]

Well, that assumes that you can study magic scientifically, and while the hermetic traditions might say this is so all the shamanistic  traditions will disagree.  The basic split over the hermetic/shamanistic magic worldviews means that there will be at least two explanations for why magic comes and goes.

Plus all the other traditions...

[Fizzygoo]

@ agustaaquila, hehe. Very true. Just the other night I got into a discussion with one of my players, though I argued the side of the shaman as he was arguing that of the hermetic. Here, it's just an easy switch to the other side to say, "well, we hermetic mages have and do study magic scientifically. We have made hypothesis, tested them, had other hermetics evaluate and retest our results. There has been so much scientific research in magic that MIT added another T and at every major university one can find programs in Thaumaturgical Theory for both the mundane and awakened to study and apply in their lives. The Anthropological Thaumaturgist is able to point out the similarities and divergences between hermeticism and other traditions, with cognitive MRI mapping of casters' bodies indicating where stress, neurological activity, and so forth was taking place during casting or summoning. And thaumaturgical science has even entered the applied fields by engineering materials that impede and conduct magical energies. Magic is simply another natural force in the world and the scientific method is well suited to its study."

Of course the Shaman would disagree, pointing out that it is emotion and will and the need of the individual being met by the Great Father and Mother at the moment of spell casting which can never be poked or prodded, tested or tied down to the scientific method.

With in the game setting, both are right (and conversely neither is wrong as both are able to produce results based on their intent).

But it does break down a bit at the meta-game level as there are rules for how magic works, how spells are cast, drain resisted, and save for flavor of spirits summoned and what linked attribute is used for resisting drain magic, it works the same regardless of traditions. This ultimately will allow the hermetic to win the argument because the hermetic will be able to make predictions on the various outcomes of the shaman's castings; for example the hermetic can say, well, if you cast fireball spell that has a radius of X meters I should see Y level of physiological stress in the caster to the point where if X > 10 meters and the shaman is not initiated then the hermetic can expect, with good probability, that the shaman will fall unconscious or even die (all with variables of the caster's health, age, experience, taken into account and adjusting the X - Y relationship of course).

As a GM I want to tweak with the system to make things a little more "even" in the hermetic/shamaic ideological relationship. My initial thoughts are traditions that use Logic gain a either a constant +1 die to all spellcasting/summoning tests or +1 die to resist drain due to the tried and true "logic" of their traditions, while those that use Intuition will receive either a +1 die to spellcasting/summong or a +1 die to resist drain or a secondary magical effect (though always resulting in a neutral to beneficial outcome for the caster sans any glitch) up to the GM at every instance of casting for the Shaman. Or, at the very least, add in a bit of a chaos-factor to Intuition based spellcasting/summoning traditions. ...but I'm not yet ready to house rule anything

[Frostriese]

With in the game setting, both are right (and conversely neither is wrong as both are able to produce results based on their intent).

It's not necessarily like that. Of course shamans and other traditionalist and intuitive traditions can create magic. But that in itself doesn't mean their world view is correct. They can create magic, because their adherents have the Talent, and the traditions build up mental discipline and ritual channels through which to work it. I mean, I know it has been a long-standing tradition that SR source material is agnostic, so to say, about which side has it right, but heh, you beautifully summarised it in your first paragraph:

well, we hermetic mages have and do study magic scientifically. We have made hypothesis, tested them, had other hermetics evaluate and retest our results. There has been so much scientific research in magic that MIT added another T and at every major university one can find programs in Thaumaturgical Theory for both the mundane and awakened to study and apply in their lives. The Anthropological Thaumaturgist is able to point out the similarities and divergences between hermeticism and other traditions, with cognitive MRI mapping of casters' bodies indicating where stress, neurological activity, and so forth was taking place during casting or summoning. And thaumaturgical science has even entered the applied fields by engineering materials that impede and conduct magical energies.

In its most basic outlines, the scientifical approach to magic (of which hermeticism is the main school, though of course not the only one) even understands just why shamans etc. can work magic despite a world view that might even be contrary to what's observable on the totally mundane level, and the scientific approach also begins to understand just why there are traditions at all and what they are needed for.

I know I'm, being very onesided here, but IMO, it makes sense: As science marches on, and more and more is researched and studied, the scientific approach to magic should increasingly be able to understand matters better than the traditionalist approach.

[zhivik]

I suppose it comes down to how you perceive magic - as a science or an art.

Obviously, if you consider magic a science, as it seems to have some very strict rules in the Sixth World (like the correlation between spell power and drain), then the scientific approach obviously has the upper hand. Basically, it is the difference between a talented car mechanic and an automobile engineer. Even though the mechanic can probably do a good job on a car, he cannot measure with the engineer, who really understands how a car works, and what he can squeeze out of it. In this case, hermetics gain the upper hand, as their better understanding would give them an advantage in the end.

On the other hand, if you consider magic as art, then the shamans are right, as in this case creativity, intuition and improvisation have much higher weight than the scientific approach. It's like with musicians - you can have some very good instrumentalists, but as long as they don't have that passion, they don't sound as good, even if they have a much better technique.

But in the end, this is the good thing about magic, that it can be considered both a science and an art, which gives a lot of room for interpretation, and of course, mystery (never a bad thing, if you ask me). It is quite similar with the Matrix and the difference between hackers and technomancers. The former approach the Matrix in a more scientific manner, while the latter do it as artists, and they never seem to be in such big conflict.

And to mention a few words on the original topic, as we diverged quite a lot in the last few posts, one explanation for the mana fluctuation could be that it is simply a natural order of things. I know this not quite an explanation, but the universe itself seems to contain quite a lot of different cycles, even if not regular ones. In fact, this gives another line of thought - what if the length of the cycle (in other words the Worlds) is not the same? Of course, Ehran claims this is so, but what if he doesn't really have a clue? This could well mean that the Horrors could much sooner (or later). I guess some of the Great Dragons might have an idea, but since none of them is talking about it, a simple explanation could be that they are as clueless about it as everyone else, but would never admit it.

[The_Gun_Nut]

There's a reason magic is often called "the craft."  Crafts are forms of artwork that use specific tools with repeatable results.  "Repeatable results" means that if you know how to, you can carve a design into a chair using learned techniques.  Anyone can do this.  The artwork part of it comes from the creative force within the person making the design.  This same principle applies to magic in the 6th world.

[Frostriese]

I suppose it comes down to how you perceive magic - as a science or an art.

Does it come down to it? After all, for all that painting and music and so on are arts, they are still scientifically understandable. It's as I've said: Just because the shaman can work magic doesn't mean his world view is correct. Especially if it's a really traditional shaman in some god forsaken part of the world where his people might still believe things directly contrary even to mundanely observable things. And yet his magic works. But that doesn't mean anything. Likewise, as far as correctness of worldview goes, it doesn't matter whether magic is used as an art or not.

And to mention a few words on the original topic, as we diverged quite a lot in the last few posts, one explanation for the mana fluctuation could be that it is simply a natural order of things. I know this not quite an explanation, but the universe itself seems to contain quite a lot of different cycles, even if not regular one

That is really not an explanation in itself. You're right, much in the universe is cyclical, but usually science then tries to understand why the cycle is there and how it works. Of course, I think in SR they are not yet as far as to be able to explain how and why the mana cycle works. But that should at least definitely be an aim for traumathurgical science.

[Fizzygoo]

But in the end, this is the good thing about magic, that it can be considered both a science and an art,

Two of the greatest things about humanity...their science and their art...and how wonderful it is when they merge the two successfully

Does it come down to it?

Crap! Like the saying, "It's art because I say it is," now that you've asked if it comes down to art verse science perception in can't and must go beyond that, either as a merging of the two or as divergent paths (or some combination there of).

Just because the shaman can work magic doesn't mean his world view is correct. Especially if it's a really traditional shaman in some god forsaken part of the world where his people might still believe things directly contrary even to mundanely observable things.

I'll disagree with you here, Frostriese (though politely and with a friendly smile ). For this discussion, I have not been considering "world views" of magical practitioners...only their understand of how magic works...their magical view. Leaving out said shaman's (and university trained geologist/astronomer/etc) understanding of the mundane physical world. What the shaman's people believe about mundanely observable things is not relevant to the shaman's understanding of magic-use, astral planes, etc.

That is really not an explanation in itself. You're right, much in the universe is cyclical, but usually science then tries to understand why the cycle is there and how it works. Of course, I think in SR they are not yet as far as to be able to explain how and why the mana cycle works. But that should at least definitely be an aim for traumathurgical science.

Now to come back in to agreement with you I totally agree. Saying that "what goes up must come down" because it is the natural order of things does not explain it. But saying F = G*m1*m2 / r^2 begins to explain it (at least of most cases), and documenting a gravity-particle would really explain it.