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Multiple Questions - Knockdown and Stick' N Shock

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voydangel

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« Reply #15 on: (01:14:07/11-18-10) »
@Stick & Schock
A lot of German Groups developed 2 Houserules
1) S&S Ammo only in Shotguns and (assault)Rifles and up
2) no increase of Damage with Net Hits (only for Burst Fire)

HokaHey
Medicineman

I really like #2, I might use that. Definitely curbs abusing it and puts it kind of in line with a tazer, which was the original intent near as I can tell.
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Mäx

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« Reply #16 on: (05:29:11/11-18-10) »
It's a fast, easy, change that just turns SnS ammo functionally into Gel Rounds
I can't fathom how you can with a straight face say that an ammo that keeps the guns damage same and gives AP -half is in any way at the same level as ammo that has -1 to damage and AP +2.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #17 on: (08:25:36/11-18-10) »
Someone mentioned capacitance in a small round earlier.

I'd like to posit a piezoelectric power source for the round.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Critias

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« Reply #18 on: (13:32:51/11-18-10) »
It's a fast, easy, change that just turns SnS ammo functionally into Gel Rounds
I can't fathom how you can with a straight face say that an ammo that keeps the guns damage same and gives AP -half is in any way at the same level as ammo that has -1 to damage and AP +2.
I can't help but feel like I'm continuing to be fundamentally misunderstood here.  I've said several times that it retains its elemental effect status only to damage spirits and only so that special anti-electrical armor works extra against it.

It doesn't give the AP -half.  It only counts as special elemental damage when it's bad for the SnS shooter (when facing insulated armor) or in a very specialized instance (to damage spirits that need elemental effects).
« Last Edit: (15:18:41/11-18-10) by Critias »

Mäx

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« Reply #19 on: (14:54:14/11-18-10) »
It's a fast, easy, change that just turns SnS ammo functionally into Gel Rounds
I can't fathom how you can with a straight face say that an ammo that keeps the guns damage same and gives AP -half is in any way at the same level as ammo that has -1 to damage and AP +2.
I can't feel like I'm continuing to be fundamentally misunderstood here.  I've said several times that it retains its elemental effect status only to damage spirits and only so that special anti-electrical armor works extra against it?

It doesn't give the AP -half.  It only counts as special elemental damage when it's bad for the SnS shooter (when facing insulated armor) or in a very specialized instance (to damage spirits that need elemental effects).
Well that just doesn't make any sense what so ever.
Either somethink is an elemental attack or it isn't.
And yes those to lines would be my answer to GM house ruling like that.
« Last Edit: (14:57:02/11-18-10) by Mäx »
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Critias

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« Reply #20 on: (15:16:16/11-18-10) »
That's fine.  That's part of the nature of house rules, and why I dislike them.  I dislike the need for them even more, which is why I'd rather see a complete overhaul of stick and shock instead of a quick band-aid like this.

So, I shared my quick-and-dirty and admittedly imperfect suggestion for how problems can be fixed, any chance you've got something constructive to add to the thread instead of just hyperventilating and waving your arms around while shrieking about how bad other peoples' advice is?
« Last Edit: (15:18:14/11-18-10) by Critias »

Mäx

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« Reply #21 on: (15:27:32/11-18-10) »
Keep them as they are, it's not like they're the best ammo for all weapons nor all situations.
Yeah they rock in hold-outs, but for the ranges one typically uses those the 8S taser works just as well(or actually better as it does more damage)

And sorry about misunderstanding your house rule, that happened cos someones house rule proposition over at dumpshock was exactly as i thought yours to be
ie. make S&S use the weapons damage code instead of the fixed 6S, keeping rest of it's rules the same.

Also sorry about that last reply, i know it was kinda hostileish, i just have a heavy disslike for totally unlogical rules.
« Last Edit: (15:29:18/11-18-10) by Mäx »
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Chaemera

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« Reply #22 on: (16:47:43/11-18-10) »
Someone mentioned capacitance in a small round earlier.

I'd like to posit a piezoelectric power source for the round.

Many already are piezoelectric vice capacitive. However, you run into the same size limitations with piezoelectric as with capacitors. Additionally, the added force of the gunpowder exploding is liable to set off the piezoelectric action prematurely due to the impact pressure of the explosion.

It's a fast, easy, change that just turns SnS ammo functionally into Gel Rounds
I can't fathom how you can with a straight face say that an ammo that keeps the guns damage same and gives AP -half is in any way at the same level as ammo that has -1 to damage and AP +2.
I can't help but feel like I'm continuing to be fundamentally misunderstood here.  I've said several times that it retains its elemental effect status only to damage spirits and only so that special anti-electrical armor works extra against it.

It doesn't give the AP -half.  It only counts as special elemental damage when it's bad for the SnS shooter (when facing insulated armor) or in a very specialized instance (to damage spirits that need elemental effects).

Maybe I've just been reading something wrong all along, immunity to normal weapons reads as follows:

Quote from:  SR4A, pg 295, Immunity
Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept powers or critter powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.

Elemental attacks from a mundane weapon, from my reading of the above, are still subject to the Immunity, they just grant their -half impact Armor, making it plausible to affect a spirit with stick-n-shock.

House ruling "stick-n-shock damages spirits and is affected by non-conductive but no longer grants -half armor" doesn't really make sense if what I just said makes any sense. A stick-n-shock round is a non-magical weapon, subject to Immunity to Normal Weapons, but it grants -half AP. Am I to take it then, that your house rule is actually two house rules:
"Immunity to Normal Weapons does not apply to elemental effects from non-magical sources" and "Stick-n-shock is the only electrical effect in the game which doesn't grant -half impact armor."?

If so, cool. If not, could you explain how elemental non-magical attacks are exempt from Immunity to Normal Weapons when the immunity is to all weapons which are not intrinsically magical. They even give a complete list of magical attacks for reference.
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Mäx

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« Reply #23 on: (17:25:24/11-18-10) »
His house rule seems(to me) be that S&S only grants -half AP against spirits.
No, it doesn't make any sense what so ever, but that didn't seem to be a high priority for him.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Critias

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« Reply #24 on: (19:08:43/11-18-10) »
I don't institute house rules unless there's a major game balance issue.  They're like nukes, to me.  I don't use them unless I really, really, need to.  And if I really, really, need to, I don't care so much about "making sense," because I can cook up whatever crazy fluff I need to to make a square peg fit a round hole -- what my primary concern is, if a game issue has gotten so bad that I'm considering a house rule, is fixing the problem.

So my intent is to make them (a) less appealing as the automatic, go-to, ammo for Hold-Outs and Light Pistols, (b) keep them a viable option for Mundanes tackling Spirits, because they're one of the few ways they can even make the attempt, and (c) keep the anti-electrical defenses (armor mods) just because if I'm even contemplating a house rule it's because SnS is crazy out of control and I'd rather underpower, than overpower, them.

So, yeah.  My quick and ugly and admittedly imperfect suggestion -- that's not, please remember, my actual serious proposal to the SnS issue, game-wide -- is very simple, and doesn't necessarily make sense, but what it does is (in my opinion) keep SnS there as a specialized ammo type that can still give mundanes a shot against spirits, puts them roughly on-par with gel rounds as a nonlethal ammo option in most cases, but allows player characters and well equipped NPCs to be ready for the latter application by still protecting themselves.

Y'all don't have to like it.  Hell, even Darrian and his buddies -- an old gaming group of mine -- don't have to.  I'm just tossing ideas out there that will fix what I perceive as the SnS issues with a minimum of muss and fuss. 

If you've got a better suggestion, I'm sure the forum is all ears.

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #25 on: (19:22:51/11-18-10) »
Well, since you asked:
Keep S'n'S as is.
Equip NPC light weapons with SNS in direct proportion to the number of PC light weapons with it.
When PC's begin buying electrical insulation, outfit NPC's in direct proportion.
Very shortly, things will balance out.

Basically, the best test of what's effective is the PC's. If they're ALL using something, then chances are that everyone else is, too. Both SNS and electrically resistant armor are pretty inexpensive and SNS has the (to most characters) benefit of being non-lethal. So its very likely that the ammo will be widely adopted then the defense will be widely adopted in response to the prevelance of the ammo.

Bradd

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« Reply #26 on: (19:30:10/11-18-10) »
Well, that's not exactly true. If the PCs are ALL using something, there's a good chance that most other special ops agents are using it too. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's the right choice for rent-a-cops or corpexec bodyguards or Johnsons or Stuff Shack cashiers or anybody else.

(And for that matter, it doesn't even mean that all 'runners favor it. People aren't always rational, especially when it comes to gear.)
« Last Edit: (19:32:03/11-18-10) by Bradd »

Critias

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« Reply #27 on: (19:32:31/11-18-10) »
Well, since you asked:
Keep S'n'S as is.
Equip NPC light weapons with SNS in direct proportion to the number of PC light weapons with it.
When PC's begin buying electrical insulation, outfit NPC's in direct proportion.
Very shortly, things will balance out.
So your house rule is "just keep doing what you've been doing, not using it for as long as the PCs don't use it." 

Chaemera

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« Reply #28 on: (19:50:12/11-18-10) »
1st, short of the ranges, why is SnS in a Hold-out a better option than a taser? The Tasers, and taser ammo, are cheaper and as or more effective than SnS.

Hold-outs give you slightly better ammo and a clip. Tasers give you four in a magazine. (SR4A, pg. 317)

If you need more than 4 shots, you're doing it wrong.

Tasers are cheaper than most light pistols and only 50 nuyen more expensive than the cheapest hold-out and cheaper than all other hold-outs.
Taser ammo is 50 per ten, SnS 80 per ten.

I do not see why the light pistol / hold-out end of the spectrum is the problem. I'd buy a taser, they're cheaper, more available, no license required, and if I don't mind wires, higher damage. At anything greater than 10 meters, you shouldn't be looking at hold-outs and tasers, anyways, so the range advantage of a light pistol is irrelevant.

2nd. Better house rule? okay. . . SnS, due to design complexity & size only works in shotguns. You retain the core function, you don't ignore game physics (which, IMO, is the main reason house rules become "nukes", things stop making sense) and you don't have to go into a bunch of hedging as to why this is. It's simple, it's intuitive & it resolves your perceived SnS problem.

It's a one sentence rule that doesn't require anyone remember the "special" nature of SnS in your world. Sounds better already. It sure beats turning sniper rifles into 9S(e) and your players having to remember that, just this once, they don't get half armor on an electrical attack. This solution isn't perfect either (someone will probably want to put it into an SMG) but no system is ever perfect.
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voydangel

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« Reply #29 on: (20:56:37/11-18-10) »
So your house rule is "just keep doing what you've been doing, not using it for as long as the PCs don't use it." 
that sounds suspiciously like "Ignore it until you can't."  ;)
My tips for new GM's
Unless it is coming from an official source, RAI = "Rules As Imagined."
SR1+SR2+SR3++SR4++SR5+++h+b+++B+D382UBIE-RN---DSF-W+m+(o++)gm+MP