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Smartlink confusion

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FastJack

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« Reply #15 on: (02:46:31/11-14-10) »
The rigger thing came up in another thread (it's late and I'm very tired, I'll look for it tomorrow). I figured it would work, since the gun on the drone would link to the optics in the drone, which you're looking through. Since Smartlink is now available as an accessory to any imaging system (goggles/glasses/contacts), I figured that as long as the optics on the drone had it installed, you should be good. It would ONLY work when you've jumped into the drone, however.

Chaemera

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« Reply #16 on: (08:32:32/11-14-10) »
I would, personally, consider a smart-gun system on drone/vehicle mounted weapons to be redundant with the sensors on the drone/vehicle. When you look at what a smartgun system does:

Quote from:  SR4A, pg. 322, Smartgun System
... It incorporates a laser range finder and a small camera, and keeps track of ammunition, heat buildup and material stress. It allows a smartlinked character to mentally switch between gun modes, eject clips , and fire the gun without pulling the trigger. The camera allows for targeted shooting around corners, without exposing oneself to return fire.
     The system makes use of advanced calculation software, allowing the user to aim even weapons with a highly ballistic firing arc (like grenades) with tremendous precision over any distance. The smartgun system can also be accessed via wireless link, allowing for the gun to be remotely fired or to block the trigger (in case an opponent gets ahold of it).

All that sounds like information the drone/vehicle would need to have (and provide a rigger) just to fire a weapon, period. Of course, this is my opinion, the RAW doesn't appear to say that you can't combine the drone/vehicle's sensors with a smartgun system, so if you're GM is cool with it, go nuts.
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Critias

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« Reply #17 on: (13:25:09/11-14-10) »
Okay... Here's my explanation:

Image link is nothing more than displaying the Augmented Reality of the world around you onto your retina. The software behind it is a simple display interface and is as smart as your monitor's hardware on your computer.

Smartlink on goggles/glasses/contacts is an UPGRADE to an image link (you can't have Smartlink without it) and has a interface with your gun's Smartgun software to display a target reticule and the gun's information onto the lenses of the item. It uses Eye-Tracking software for you to interact with the gun's operation, making it so you look at and highlight the command "eject clip" to do things like that.

This is probably about as good of an explanation as I can hope for. The eye-tracking thing is a good way to go, although I wish they would have stated it directly somewhere. Thanks.

I think of it as a comparison between, say, MS Paint (image link) and a top of the line graphic art/image manipulation/whatever program (full on smartlink).  In theory and in broad concept, both do the same thing.  In practice, one is light years ahead of the other.

I might find this convincing if your smartlink provided a three-dimensional battle map with a ton of predictive information and AI-enhanced advice on what to do, like a TacNet. But it doesn't- it displays a targeting reticule, shows range and ammo count, and shows the expected trajectory for a target in motion. Not only is that not anything special in the year 2070, it's not anything special now, IRL. Your image link is probably accustomed to displaying lots more complicated data than your smartlink, with fully-animated ads and the like abounding in spam zones.
Uhm...okay.  So his saying that a smartlink is a an upgrade to an image link is brilliant and reasonable, my analogy that a smartlink is an upgrade to image link, using modern day examples of different tiers of a theoretically similar piece of software, isn't "convincing."  

*shrugs*

Fair enough, I guess I can't win 'em all.   ;D
« Last Edit: (13:50:02/11-14-10) by Critias »

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #18 on: (19:57:04/11-14-10) »
All that sounds like information the drone/vehicle would need to have (and provide a rigger) just to fire a weapon, period. Of course, this is my opinion, the RAW doesn't appear to say that you can't combine the drone/vehicle's sensors with a smartgun system, so if you're GM is cool with it, go nuts.

Its the difference from having a camera with a crosshair on top of a weapon and having the extra programming that accounts for position, your velocity, the target's velocity, intervening terrain etc and gives you feedback on how to adjust your aim for optimal targeting.The smartlink on the gun does all, of that of course. The smartlink vision upgrade processes that input and overlays it on your glasses, taking into account the position of your eyes, angle of your head and the location of the target relative to them. That does make me think it should be available as a comlink upgrade, though, so it can relay the info via simsense.

FastJack

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« Reply #19 on: (20:21:27/11-14-10) »
All that sounds like information the drone/vehicle would need to have (and provide a rigger) just to fire a weapon, period. Of course, this is my opinion, the RAW doesn't appear to say that you can't combine the drone/vehicle's sensors with a smartgun system, so if you're GM is cool with it, go nuts.

Its the difference from having a camera with a crosshair on top of a weapon and having the extra programming that accounts for position, your velocity, the target's velocity, intervening terrain etc and gives you feedback on how to adjust your aim for optimal targeting.The smartlink on the gun does all, of that of course. The smartlink vision upgrade processes that input and overlays it on your glasses, taking into account the position of your eyes, angle of your head and the location of the target relative to them. That does make me think it should be available as a comlink upgrade, though, so it can relay the info via simsense.
That sounds like the equivalent of me stating that since my Cellphone can access the web, I should be able to upgrade it so my iPod can communicate wirelessly. Commlinks have nothing to do with the Smartlink installed in your gun at any point. And, if you want to view AR that your Cellphone receives, you have to purchase goggles, glasses, contacts or cybernetic enhancements to see them. So, how would a commlink upgrade broadcast Smartlink information without another means of displaying it?

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #20 on: (20:59:36/11-14-10) »
That sounds like the equivalent of me stating that since my Cellphone can access the web, I should be able to upgrade it so my iPod can communicate wirelessly. Commlinks have nothing to do with the Smartlink installed in your gun at any point. And, if you want to view AR that your Cellphone receives, you have to purchase goggles, glasses, contacts or cybernetic enhancements to see them. So, how would a commlink upgrade broadcast Smartlink information without another means of displaying it?

Let em rephrase a bit. If you're wearing 'trodes you don't need glasses to see your commlink's AR. Since all of the targeting circuitry is a function of the weapon, it would make sense that it could be relayed directly via simsense rather than require a visual feed. That's what a standalone smartlink does, right? Relays the smartgun's data straight to the brain. This would be similar to rigging and/or VR hacking via 'trodes. The actual smartlink receiving hardware has to go somewhere in this situation and 'trodes don't have upgrade capacity so it would presumably go to the commlink.

Chaemera

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« Reply #21 on: (22:35:37/11-14-10) »
All that sounds like information the drone/vehicle would need to have (and provide a rigger) just to fire a weapon, period. Of course, this is my opinion, the RAW doesn't appear to say that you can't combine the drone/vehicle's sensors with a smartgun system, so if you're GM is cool with it, go nuts.

Its the difference from having a camera with a crosshair on top of a weapon and having the extra programming that accounts for position, your velocity, the target's velocity, intervening terrain etc and gives you feedback on how to adjust your aim for optimal targeting.The smartlink on the gun does all, of that of course. The smartlink vision upgrade processes that input and overlays it on your glasses, taking into account the position of your eyes, angle of your head and the location of the target relative to them. That does make me think it should be available as a comlink upgrade, though, so it can relay the info via simsense.

Okay, if the smartgun-smartlink combo works as you described (ties together aiming of gun to angle of head/eyes/relative location of target and user) then I definitely don't think that a smartgun system works with a drone/vehicle weapon that's accessed via jumping into the drone/vehicle. At that point, aiming has zero to do with the smartlink side of the equation (since aiming the drone-gun is independent of the rigger's eyes, head and location.
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FastJack

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« Reply #22 on: (00:04:36/11-15-10) »
That sounds like the equivalent of me stating that since my Cellphone can access the web, I should be able to upgrade it so my iPod can communicate wirelessly. Commlinks have nothing to do with the Smartlink installed in your gun at any point. And, if you want to view AR that your Cellphone receives, you have to purchase goggles, glasses, contacts or cybernetic enhancements to see them. So, how would a commlink upgrade broadcast Smartlink information without another means of displaying it?

Let em rephrase a bit. If you're wearing 'trodes you don't need glasses to see your commlink's AR. Since all of the targeting circuitry is a function of the weapon, it would make sense that it could be relayed directly via simsense rather than require a visual feed. That's what a standalone smartlink does, right? Relays the smartgun's data straight to the brain. This would be similar to rigging and/or VR hacking via 'trodes. The actual smartlink receiving hardware has to go somewhere in this situation and 'trodes don't have upgrade capacity so it would presumably go to the commlink.
Ah yes, but remember this bit:

Quote from: Unwired, p. 103
Issuing commands to a smartgun through a smartlink is a Free Action that requires no test; issuing commands to a smartgun through a commlink or any other wireless device is a Simple Action and requires a successful Computer + Command (1) Test. If two characters are attempting to command the same smartgun, make an Opposed Computer + Command Test, with the winner determining what the smartgun does that round. Some street samurai store a copy of the Command program in their smartlinks specifically for these tests.

Now, granted, it's originally talking about hacking a smartgun, but it applies even if the gun is your own. You'd still need to send the command through the Commlink to fire the gun. And you'd still have to make an Agility + Pistols test, without the +2 Smartlink bonus* because you're going through your commlink to do so. Don't forget that the commlink command is a Simple Action, meaning you'd still only get off one shot/burst a round instead of the two if you had simply fired the gun manually.

*The way I see it, if it takes an action to command the gun to fire, that means there's lag between the smartgun's system communicating to your commlink and your commlink passing the information to you. So, although you'd see the reticule and target information, it may be a half-second or more behind what is actually there.

voydangel

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« Reply #23 on: (17:43:55/11-15-10) »
Quote from: Unwired, p. 103
Issuing commands to a smartgun through a smartlink is a Free Action that requires no test; issuing commands to a smartgun through a commlink or any other wireless device is a Simple Action and requires a successful Computer + Command (1) Test. If two characters are attempting to command the same smartgun, make an Opposed Computer + Command Test, with the winner determining what the smartgun does that round. Some street samurai store a copy of the Command program in their smartlinks specifically for these tests.

Now, granted, it's originally talking about hacking a smartgun, but it applies even if the gun is your own. You'd still need to send the command through the Commlink to fire the gun. And you'd still have to make an Agility + Pistols test, without the +2 Smartlink bonus* because you're going through your commlink to do so. Don't forget that the commlink command is a Simple Action, meaning you'd still only get off one shot/burst a round instead of the two if you had simply fired the gun manually.

*The way I see it, if it takes an action to command the gun to fire, that means there's lag between the smartgun's system communicating to your commlink and your commlink passing the information to you. So, although you'd see the reticule and target information, it may be a half-second or more behind what is actually there.

But based on that - wouldn't you be able to "Issue a command to a smartgun through a smartlink" as a free action, and have that action be "Fire"? Thereby enabling yourself to fire your gun with a free action rather than a simple? Then you could swap your simple actions for free actions and fire like .. what? ... 4 or 5 shots in a single action phase? How does this ruling of commanding a smartgun interact with actually firing it during combat?
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Chaemera

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« Reply #24 on: (17:54:28/11-15-10) »
Quote from: Unwired, p. 103
Issuing commands to a smartgun through a smartlink is a Free Action that requires no test; issuing commands to a smartgun through a commlink or any other wireless device is a Simple Action and requires a successful Computer + Command (1) Test. If two characters are attempting to command the same smartgun, make an Opposed Computer + Command Test, with the winner determining what the smartgun does that round. Some street samurai store a copy of the Command program in their smartlinks specifically for these tests.

Now, granted, it's originally talking about hacking a smartgun, but it applies even if the gun is your own. You'd still need to send the command through the Commlink to fire the gun. And you'd still have to make an Agility + Pistols test, without the +2 Smartlink bonus* because you're going through your commlink to do so. Don't forget that the commlink command is a Simple Action, meaning you'd still only get off one shot/burst a round instead of the two if you had simply fired the gun manually.

*The way I see it, if it takes an action to command the gun to fire, that means there's lag between the smartgun's system communicating to your commlink and your commlink passing the information to you. So, although you'd see the reticule and target information, it may be a half-second or more behind what is actually there.

But based on that - wouldn't you be able to "Issue a command to a smartgun through a smartlink" as a free action, and have that action be "Fire"? Thereby enabling yourself to fire your gun with a free action rather than a simple? Then you could swap your simple actions for free actions and fire like .. what? ... 4 or 5 shots in a single action phase? How does this ruling of commanding a smartgun interact with actually firing it during combat?

If you order the smartgun to fire. . . well, you're no longer going through the process of lining up your shot, properly holding the gun, controlled breathing, etc. You're telling the gun "fire" - and it fires. Wherever the barrel happens to be pointing at that exact moment. Before you say "yeah, but I was still holding it steady and on-target!" I counter with "and that's the definition of the "fire weapon" action, which is a simple action. Pointing the gun at your target, compensating for environmental factors, and all the other mental and physical hoops that go into the Agility + Firearms roll add up to requiring a simple action, regardless of whether you squeeze the trigger or command the gun via smart-link.

You want to use a free-action and ignore all that? I'll let you, but since you aren't in proper control of your weapon (as represented by the Fire Weapon action), you'll face a hefty dice-pool penalty.

Is it RAW? Perhaps not, but then again, the RAW that lets you roll your Agility + Firearms skill is the Simple Action (or complex for full auto) Fire Weapon. So, I'd also be free to argue for randomly deciding where the bullet goes when you give the command.
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voydangel

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« Reply #25 on: (17:26:17/11-16-10) »
I completely agree with that, and I wouldn't allow it in my game either, I was just curious what the RAW had to say about that explicitly, since it seems like that is one more loophole to add to the list.
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robo the dino

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« Reply #26 on: (19:46:24/11-19-10) »
Okay... Here's my explanation:

Image link is nothing more than displaying the Augmented Reality of the world around you onto your retina. The software behind it is a simple display interface and is as smart as your monitor's hardware on your computer.

Smartlink on goggles/glasses/contacts is an UPGRADE to an image link (you can't have Smartlink without it) and has a interface with your gun's Smartgun software to display a target reticule and the gun's information onto the lenses of the item. It uses Eye-Tracking software for you to interact with the gun's operation, making it so you look at and highlight the command "eject clip" to do things like that.

This is probably about as good of an explanation as I can hope for. The eye-tracking thing is a good way to go, although I wish they would have stated it directly somewhere. Thanks.

I think of it as a comparison between, say, MS Paint (image link) and a top of the line graphic art/image manipulation/whatever program (full on smartlink).  In theory and in broad concept, both do the same thing.  In practice, one is light years ahead of the other.

I might find this convincing if your smartlink provided a three-dimensional battle map with a ton of predictive information and AI-enhanced advice on what to do, like a TacNet. But it doesn't- it displays a targeting reticule, shows range and ammo count, and shows the expected trajectory for a target in motion. Not only is that not anything special in the year 2070, it's not anything special now, IRL. Your image link is probably accustomed to displaying lots more complicated data than your smartlink, with fully-animated ads and the like abounding in spam zones.
Uhm...okay.  So his saying that a smartlink is a an upgrade to an image link is brilliant and reasonable, my analogy that a smartlink is an upgrade to image link, using modern day examples of different tiers of a theoretically similar piece of software, isn't "convincing."  

*shrugs*

Fair enough, I guess I can't win 'em all.   ;D

The part of the other poster's explanation that was convincing to me was the interface question, not the "smartlink as image link upgrade" bit. The interface thing really bothers me- with all the attention and detail they put into this aspect of the game, to simply hand-wave the issue of how smartlinks actually receive commands from the user is kinda a huge oversight.
To respond to your analogy, I feel that a more apt one would be: Your image link is like the video card in your computer. The smartlink is a little applet that lets you display on two monitors (or whatever). The video card does a million more things than the applet, even if the applet does one important thing that the card can't do on its own. My problem being, in a world where most people want to display on two monitors, there's no real reason not to build that functionality into the video card as standard, since it's well within the limits of its processing power.

Chaemera

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« Reply #27 on: (19:55:57/11-19-10) »
Okay... Here's my explanation:

Image link is nothing more than displaying the Augmented Reality of the world around you onto your retina. The software behind it is a simple display interface and is as smart as your monitor's hardware on your computer.

Smartlink on goggles/glasses/contacts is an UPGRADE to an image link (you can't have Smartlink without it) and has a interface with your gun's Smartgun software to display a target reticule and the gun's information onto the lenses of the item. It uses Eye-Tracking software for you to interact with the gun's operation, making it so you look at and highlight the command "eject clip" to do things like that.

This is probably about as good of an explanation as I can hope for. The eye-tracking thing is a good way to go, although I wish they would have stated it directly somewhere. Thanks.

I think of it as a comparison between, say, MS Paint (image link) and a top of the line graphic art/image manipulation/whatever program (full on smartlink).  In theory and in broad concept, both do the same thing.  In practice, one is light years ahead of the other.

I might find this convincing if your smartlink provided a three-dimensional battle map with a ton of predictive information and AI-enhanced advice on what to do, like a TacNet. But it doesn't- it displays a targeting reticule, shows range and ammo count, and shows the expected trajectory for a target in motion. Not only is that not anything special in the year 2070, it's not anything special now, IRL. Your image link is probably accustomed to displaying lots more complicated data than your smartlink, with fully-animated ads and the like abounding in spam zones.
Uhm...okay.  So his saying that a smartlink is a an upgrade to an image link is brilliant and reasonable, my analogy that a smartlink is an upgrade to image link, using modern day examples of different tiers of a theoretically similar piece of software, isn't "convincing."  

*shrugs*

Fair enough, I guess I can't win 'em all.   ;D

The part of the other poster's explanation that was convincing to me was the interface question, not the "smartlink as image link upgrade" bit. The interface thing really bothers me- with all the attention and detail they put into this aspect of the game, to simply hand-wave the issue of how smartlinks actually receive commands from the user is kinda a huge oversight.
To respond to your analogy, I feel that a more apt one would be: Your image link is like the video card in your computer. The smartlink is a little applet that lets you display on two monitors (or whatever). The video card does a million more things than the applet, even if the applet does one important thing that the card can't do on its own. My problem being, in a world where most people want to display on two monitors, there's no real reason not to build that functionality into the video card as standard, since it's well within the limits of its processing power.

One word: MONEY.

If I can get you to buy two separate things for 100$ a piece, or one, single thing that integrates the two for 150$, then I'm going to sell you two separate things.

Also, since average-joe wage-slave doesn't want smartlink, it's not an accurate assessment to say you operate in a world where "most" people want it. It is a restricted item, by the way, you need a license (technically) to buy smartlinked glasses, you don't to buy imagelink.

Finally, when you use the book to buy piecemeal gear, do you really think you're necessarily buying it "in game" piecemeal? Perhaps, but you also might be buying the Gucci glasses with imagelink, image magnification and thermographic vision, standard. The game just hand-waves the fact that Gucci would charge you three times as much for the same product.
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