Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Major Doom on <11-27-10/1502:11>
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I'm playing with a group and I was told that a non-magical character can attack a spirit using weapons with elemental properties (for example, a taser). Now I looked through the core book (Spirit Combat, SR4a, page 186), read the Special Types Of Damage on Acid, Electricity, and Fire (SR4A, pages 163-164), also read through the Spirits chapter in Street Magic, and on top of that, I've read a few threads here that mention electricity or gel rounds (?) can be used by mundanes to fight spirits. Unless I missed it somewhere, which could be possible since lot of rules are spread out within a book and among books, I can't seem to find where it says a non-magical character can use elemental weapons against spirits to offset a spirit's innate Immunity To Normal Weapons power. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
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You can use any weapon what so ever to attack spirits.
Those with high damage and/or AP are preferred against spirits of higher the force 2-3.
Elemental effect doesn't let you ingnore the spirits ItNW but it's AP -half does help a lot as it halves the armor provided by the power.
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If none of your guns work (you need bigger guns) you can always use Attacks of Will. But trying one of those is basically suicide against a powerful spirit.
EDIT
Fixed me a typo.
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If none of your guns work (you need bigger guns) you can always use Attacks of Will. But trying one of those is basically. suicide against a powerful spirit.
Yeah if first you don't succeed, get a bigger gun and if your gun was already a rail rifle, then you didn't have a chance in the first place and should just content with kicking the ass of your GM.
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I have yet to find anything a rail rifle can't fix. Even a force 12 spirit gets nervous around those.
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I have yet to find anything a rail rifle can't fix. Even a force 12 spirit gets nervous around those.
Hence my comment to just kick the ass of your GM if rail rifle doesn't work, as the situation was obliviously a premeditated TPK on the part of him.
Rail rifle is after all deadly up to force 13, assuming you can hit that spirit.
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I have yet to find anything a rail rifle can't fix. Even a force 12 spirit gets nervous around those.
Hence my comment to just kick the ass of your GM if rail rifle doesn't work, as the situation was obliviously a premeditated TPK on the part of him.
Rail rifle is after all deadly up to force 13, assuming you can hit that spirit.
To be fair, there are GM's who believe in a "persistent world" concept, namely the world exists and continues outside the PC's direct experiences. If the GM decided that a Force 20 fire spirit lives in the abandoned warehouse on fleet street, there's a Force 20 fire spirit in said warehouse. The GM's job at that point is to provide at least some hint that going in said warehouse is not a good idea. Unless they want to make a deal with said fire spirit.
Now, if the GM looked at his plans for tonight's run and said "this fight would be more fun for me with a Force 20 fire spirit", curb-stomp him.
OP, Max has already answered your question; however, if you're looking for how to map it out in the rules:
A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack auto- matically does no damage.
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Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.
Hardened Armor is even tougher than normal armor. If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don’t even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test. Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating.
So, a Force 4 spirit has Armor 8/8 against non-magical attacks, and if the attack fails to deal damage greater than the modified armor rating, it's ignored.
Example:
Dude with Light Pistol (4P, 0 AP) shoots at Force 4 Beast Spirit, rolling a net of 2 hits on his attack.
4P + 2 = 6 < 8 Ballistic armor, attack ignored.
Example 2:
Dude with Light Pistol loaded with EX-Explosive (5P, -2 AP) shoots same spirit, rolling a net of 2 hits on his attack.
5P + 2 = 7 > 6 Ballistic armor (8 - 2 for AP), attack affects the spirit & it needs to roll for soak (Body 6 + Armor 6 = DP 12).
Elemental attacks (including electricity) all have Armor Piercing of -half (See pages 163 - 164, SR4A). Electricity is simply the cheapest / easiest one to acquire for your average mundane.
Example 3:
Dude with Taser (6S(e), -half) shoots same spirit, rolling a net of 2 hits on his attack.
6S + 2 = 8 > 4 Impact armor (8/2), attack affects the spirit & it needs to roll for soak (Body 6 + Armor 4 = DP 10)
These examples should make it pretty clear, if you're purchasing on the cheap, a taser or SnS is your friend against spirits. Not only is it the least expensive, it's the highest damage when you hold all other variables the same.
If you aren't purchasing on the cheap, get that gauss rifle, name it Vera and end that spirit.
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I'm one of those persistent world GMs. ;D
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I'm one of those persistent world GMs. ;D
As am I. I still remember the time I was running a DnD game, decided where the ancient-as-the-earth green dragon lived. Only to have the party decide within two sessions that they wanted to go explore that cave on the map the found. And they had seen paintings form a previous era depicting said green dragon. And they knew it lived there. And they went anyways. Fortunately for them, they were able to do a job for the dragon in exchange for not being eaten that day.
Before you chastise my players, they'd not played Shadowrun before, they didn't know any better than to deal with a dragon.
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Its not cheap, but Arsenal has several venoms from Awakened critters that can go in capsule rounds, supersquirt paintballs or injection darts. Ask your GM, but since its an unmodified venom from an Awakened paracritter power, I'd think it would ignore the immunity entirely. Damage varies from 6-12 and net hits don't add to that but it should put a dent in spirits.
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OP, Max has already answered your question; however, if you're looking for how to map it out in the rules:
A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack auto- matically does no damage.
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Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.
Hardened Armor is even tougher than normal armor. If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don’t even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test. Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating.
So, a Force 4 spirit has Armor 8/8 against non-magical attacks, and if the attack fails to deal damage greater than the modified armor rating, it's ignored.
Example:
Dude with Light Pistol (4P, 0 AP) shoots at Force 4 Beast Spirit, rolling a net of 2 hits on his attack.
4P + 2 = 6 < 8 Ballistic armor, attack ignored.
Example 2:
Dude with Light Pistol loaded with EX-Explosive (5P, -2 AP) shoots same spirit, rolling a net of 2 hits on his attack.
5P + 2 = 7 > 6 Ballistic armor (8 - 2 for AP), attack affects the spirit & it needs to roll for soak (Body 6 + Armor 6 = DP 12).
Elemental attacks (including electricity) all have Armor Piercing of -half (See pages 163 - 164, SR4A). Electricity is simply the cheapest / easiest one to acquire for your average mundane.
Example 3:
Dude with Taser (6S(e), -half) shoots same spirit, rolling a net of 2 hits on his attack.
6S + 2 = 8 > 4 Impact armor (8/2), attack affects the spirit & it needs to roll for soak (Body 6 + Armor 4 = DP 10)
These examples should make it pretty clear, if you're purchasing on the cheap, a taser or SnS is your friend against spirits. Not only is it the least expensive, it's the highest damage when you hold all other variables the same.
If you aren't purchasing on the cheap, get that gauss rifle, name it Vera and end that spirit.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, but this is where I am confused. Physical Spirits automatically receive the Immunity To Normal Weapons critter power, which is also treated as Hardened Armor. The Hardened Armor part I get, but when reading the RAW for Immunity To Normal Weapons part under Immunity, especially the following:
This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers).
This for me says, anything that is not magical in nature, be it bullet, explosive, taser, battery acid, menstrual blood, cow's piss, photon torpedo, etc., does no damage. But if I had a pair of chopsticks that are weapon foci, then just the Hardened Armor part applies. Yes, no?
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This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers).
This for me says, anything that is not magical in nature, be it bullet, explosive, taser, battery acid, menstrual blood, cow's piss, photon torpedo, etc., does no damage. But if I had a pair of chopsticks that are weapon foci, then just the Hardened Armor part applies. Yes, no?
Nope. If you had a pair of chopsticks that were weapon foci then ITNW provides NO armor.
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A critter with Immunity has enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an "Armor rating" equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as "hardened" protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage.
What about that is not clear?
Immunity to [STUFF] provides Hardened Armor vs. any attacks made with [STUFF]. It has absolutely no effect whatsoever on attacks made with [NOT STUFF].
As Immunity provides the effects of Hardened Armor, it follows all the rules for Hardened Armor - including being modified by Armor Penetration & the half Impact effects of most Elemental damage & Gauss weapons.
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Yeah, "Immunity" was poor word choice. When they say it has "immunity to non-magical weapons", they're talking about immunity as defined in the preceding sentence (Hardened armor equal to magic x 2).
They aren't talking about "immunity" as commonly understood.
It is worth noting that the Oxford English Dictionary defines immunity as follows:
"protection or exemption from something".
So this would fall under "protection", rather than "exemption". Personally, I'd have used a term like "Resistance to Natural Weapons". Less possibility for connotation to create confusion.
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The word "immunity" is a hold-over from previous editions, where the creature was actually immune to mundane weapons. Force of will attacks was all that mundanes could do against the spirits.
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Its not cheap, but Arsenal has several venoms from Awakened critters that can go in capsule rounds, supersquirt paintballs or injection darts. Ask your GM, but since its an unmodified venom from an Awakened paracritter power, I'd think it would ignore the immunity entirely. Damage varies from 6-12 and net hits don't add to that but it should put a dent in spirits.
But I wonder if Poison works on Spirits ?
(and by-the-Way ist a RailGUN or GAUSS Rifle .Rail Rifle sounds so....Wrong to Me )
HokaHey
Medicineman
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But I wonder if Poison works on Spirits ?
(and by-the-Way ist a RailGUN or GAUSS Rifle .Rail Rifle sounds so....Wrong to Me )
HokaHey
Medicineman
Normal poison, no (or at least ITNW applies). However, ITNW specifically does not apply to critter powers. RAW that means that even cobra venom would work, since venom is a power. However, my personal take on it is that natural venom would not bypass ITNW but venom from paracritters would as would any Awakened drugs. Since there is a Toxin Immunity quality and spirits don't have that as a power, toxins should effect them based on magical/not magical in the same way weapons do.
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But I wonder if Poison works on Spirits ?
(and by-the-Way ist a RailGUN or GAUSS Rifle .Rail Rifle sounds so....Wrong to Me )
HokaHey
Medicineman
Normal poison, no (or at least ITNW applies). However, ITNW specifically does not apply to critter powers. RAW that means that even cobra venom would work, since venom is a power. However, my personal take on it is that natural venom would not bypass ITNW but venom from paracritters would as would any Awakened drugs. Since there is a Toxin Immunity quality and spirits don't have that as a power, toxins should effect them based on magical/not magical in the same way weapons do.
That's how I see it as well.
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Thanks for the detailed explanation, but this is where I am confused. Physical Spirits automatically receive the Immunity To Normal Weapons critter power, which is also treated as Hardened Armor. The Hardened Armor part I get, but when reading the RAW for Immunity To Normal Weapons part under Immunity, especially the following:
This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers).
This for me says, anything that is not magical in nature, be it bullet, explosive, taser, battery acid, menstrual blood, cow's piss, photon torpedo, etc., does no damage. But if I had a pair of chopsticks that are weapon foci, then just the Hardened Armor part applies. Yes, no?
There is no distinct hardened armor part, the hardened armor is the "immunity" meaning in the case of ItNW that all non magical attacks have to get past the hardened armor provided by ItNW, magical attacks on the other hand bypass that armor.
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A critter with Immunity has enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an "Armor rating" equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as "hardened" protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage.
What about that is not clear?
Immunity to [STUFF] provides Hardened Armor vs. any attacks made with [STUFF]. It has absolutely no effect whatsoever on attacks made with [NOT STUFF].
As Immunity provides the effects of Hardened Armor, it follows all the rules for Hardened Armor - including being modified by Armor Penetration & the half Impact effects of most Elemental damage & Gauss weapons.
As I said before, I understand the Hardened Armor part. My concern was about the Immunity To Normal Weapon part.
Yeah, "Immunity" was poor word choice. When they say it has "immunity to non-magical weapons", they're talking about immunity as defined in the preceding sentence (Hardened armor equal to magic x 2).
They aren't talking about "immunity" as commonly understood.
It is worth noting that the Oxford English Dictionary defines immunity as follows:
"protection or exemption from something".
So this would fall under "protection", rather than "exemption". Personally, I'd have used a term like "Resistance to Natural Weapons". Less possibility for connotation to create confusion.
Okay that's what I am confused about, since I thought Immunity To Normal Weapons and treating Immunity like Hardened Armor were two effects of the same power. So as I read it, if an Awakend character were to use a spell on the spirit, then only the Hardened Armor part would apply, meanwhile mundane weapons are nullified due to the Immunity To Normal Weapons part. Then add on top of that the use of word "immunity", which as you mentioned, is a poor way of explaining it. But unfortunately this now sounds more like RAI instead of RAW.
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Okay that's what I am confused about, since I thought Immunity To Normal Weapons and treating Immunity like Hardened Armor were two effects of the same power. So as I read it, if an Awakend character were to use a spell on the spirit, then only the Hardened Armor part would apply, meanwhile mundane weapons are nullified due to the Immunity To Normal Weapons part. Then add on top of that the use of word "immunity", which as you mentioned, is a poor way of explaining it. But unfortunately this now sounds more like RAI instead of RAW.
Immunity is nothing more then a name for a general critter power that gives the creature having it a hardened armor equal to twice the creatures magic attribute against what ever the creature has immunity.
For example Immunity to fire gives the creature 2*magic points of hardened armor against fire attacks
Immunity to cold give 2*magic points of hardened armor against cold damage
And ItNW gives 2*spirits force points of hardened armor against all non magical attacks, nothing else.
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For a bit of amusement, it occurs to me that attacking a fire elemental with a fireball will work just fine. It will completely bypass it's ITNW and do full damage, at least by RAW. That said, I doubt there's a GM in existence that would let that one work.
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For a bit of amusement, it occurs to me that attacking a fire elemental with a fireball will work just fine. It will completely bypass it's ITNW and do full damage, at least by RAW. That said, I doubt there's a GM in existence that would let that one work.
Well the indirect elemental spell are a little tricky when it comes to ItNW as they actually create completely normal fire/lightning/whatever so the fire hitting the enemy isn't really even magical.
Ofcource i cant really see why you would ever use a fireball against any spirit, as stun ball has a much lower drain as does slaughter spirit.
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Okay that's what I am confused about, since I thought Immunity To Normal Weapons and treating Immunity like Hardened Armor were two effects of the same power. So as I read it, if an Awakend character were to use a spell on the spirit, then only the Hardened Armor part would apply, meanwhile mundane weapons are nullified due to the Immunity To Normal Weapons part. Then add on top of that the use of word "immunity", which as you mentioned, is a poor way of explaining it. But unfortunately this now sounds more like RAI instead of RAW.
Doom, the RAW is that Immunity grants Hardened Armor equal to Magic *2, as previously stated by several posters. Immunity to Normal Weapons (ItNW) is a specific form of Immunity (same power, specific application) that applies the Immunity power to any and all natural weapons, as I explain in my original post (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=1587.msg16468#msg16468).
Immunity to Normal Weapons does nothing to magical attacks. A creature with ItNW gets nothing against a spell (from ItNW, anyways), direct or otherwise (note ItNW say "spells", not "direct spells", so fireball is not subject to ItNW).
It's not RAI, it's the definition of Immunity as specifically stated on page 295. As Gun Nut pointed out, this name is a hold-over from previous editions. Don't try to infer that when they say "immunity", they mean invulnerability, use the definition they provide for the Immunity power. If you do that, you'll be fine.
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A creature with ItNW gets nothing against a spell (from ItNW, anyways), direct or otherwise (note ItNW say "spells", not "direct spells", so fireball is not subject to ItNW).
Yes thats true by the rules.
It's just wierd that the completdly natural flame the mage conjured out of thin air by-passes that immunity, while the identical flame producet by the sammies flamer has to beat it ;D
And thats why i said its a little tricky.
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A creature with ItNW gets nothing against a spell (from ItNW, anyways), direct or otherwise (note ItNW say "spells", not "direct spells", so fireball is not subject to ItNW).
Yes thats true by the rules.
It's just wierd that the completdly natural flame the mage conjured out of thin air by-passes that immunity, while the identical flame producet by the sammies flamer has to beat it ;D
And thats why i said its a little tricky.
Where exactly are you getting the idea that magically conjured fire (from fireball/flamethrower spells) is mundane fire? The attack may be treated as a "mundane" ranged attack, but I don't see anywhere in RAW where it specifically states that the elemental effects created by indirect combat spells are considered non-magical.
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A creature with ItNW gets nothing against a spell (from ItNW, anyways), direct or otherwise (note ItNW say "spells", not "direct spells", so fireball is not subject to ItNW).
Yes thats true by the rules.
It's just wierd that the completdly natural flame the mage conjured out of thin air by-passes that immunity, while the identical flame producet by the sammies flamer has to beat it ;D
And thats why i said its a little tricky.
Where exactly are you getting the idea that magically conjured fire (from fireball/flamethrower spells) is mundane fire? The attack may be treated as a "mundane" ranged attack, but I don't see anywhere in RAW where it specifically states that the elemental effects created by indirect combat spells are considered non-magical.
Where do you get the idea that the fire created by the flamethrower spell is anythink else then normal fire, or the lightning created by the similarry named spell is in any way different from a normal lightning. ;)
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Where do you get the idea that . . . the lightning created by the similarry named spell is in any way different from a normal lightning. ;)
The fact that it does physical and not stun damage in the same way as a critter power based lightning and unlike mundane electrical attacks of equal damage.
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Where do you get the idea that the fire created by the flamethrower spell is anythink else then normal fire, or the lightning created by the similarry named spell is in any way different from a normal lightning. ;)
@Mäx: That's cute, and I totally understand where you're coming from, I really do (I even ran it that way for a while back in the day), but according to RAW there is absolutely no reason to assume that the effects created by indirect elemental magic spells are mundane. In fact, we have every reason to assume that the effects are magical in nature. Example 1 would be electrical damage from spells dealing physical rather than stun damage (as pointed out by Nomad), and example 2 would be flamethrower spells bypassing ItNW (as you pointed out). There are other examples per RAW as well, but I think it's fairly safe to say that magically created elemental stuff is magical, not mundane. Unless of course you can find RAW to contradict this. :)
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And its discussions like this that make me praise the day I showed a lot of RAW stuff the way to the door out ;)
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@Voydangel: Well, as for the Lightning Bolt part, remember that most mundane electrical attacks are tasers and stick'n'shock rounds. A Lightning Bolt is what it's name implies: A lot more voltage and amperage than any living thing can handle.
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@Voydangel: Well, as for the Lightning Bolt part, remember that most mundane electrical attacks are tasers and stick'n'shock rounds. A Lightning Bolt is what it's name implies: A lot more voltage and amperage than any living thing can handle.
And im gonna be laughing still next year, if somebody claim with a straight face that a natural lighting bolt does anything other then physical damage.
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Well, there were cases when people survived a lightning strike pretty much unscathed... But they were all grounded. Or trolls in past lives. :P
I had a near call - a lightning hit the ground abou 50 m from me. It was raining, so i got zapped a little, fell down, and almost got knocked out. And i had painful muscle spasms in my legs for a few hours, that made walking a bit... interesting.
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Yes there are people who have survived direct hits from a lightning, but there are also whole lot of trees destroyed by lightnings and those are immune to stun damage.
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Yes there are people who have survived direct hits from a lightning, but there are also whole lot of trees destroyed by lightnings and those are immune to stun damage.
ROTFL. :P I see your point there. <laughs>
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The vast majority of people hit by lightning that don't die are severely messed up by it. 3rd or even 4th degree burns, brain damage, paralysis, organ failure, amputations, and so on. An average lightning bolt is about 30,000 amps, 500 megajoules of energy, and about 36,000 degrees F. So yeah, stun damage.
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Yeah, and an F3 Lightning Bolt spell makes the character go "ow, dammit" and shoot you. So its comparable to a lightning bolt from nature about the same way a motorcycle engine is comparable to an earthquake.
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I'm just saying, man. Electricity screws you up. It's actually pretty easy to kill someone with a real world Taser. Especially if they have any kind of underlying health concerns or are high on any number of drugs (especially stimulants). Tasers work by basically shortcircuiting your nervous system with electricity, interfering with your brain's ability to control your muscles. There's a pretty fine line between what is deadly and what is acceptably less-than-deadly when it comes to these things.
Also, magic probably pours energy into the effect more efficiently and vigorously than the tiny batteries powering stun guns. Lethal power would be easy to achieve.
I wonder what kind of Force you'd need to make it equal to a natural one.....
EDIT
Typo fixes.
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Ok, cool, so I'll just assume that since no one can come up with RAW to the contrary that my statement stands.
Those are very good real world explanations and figures and whatnot, but they don't refute the fact that in Shadowrun, magically created elemental effects are magical in nature.
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As Dead Monky wrote - tasers can really hurt someone. I'm not really what you'd call 'a scientific mind', but as far as i remeber, tasers, and other shock weapons use high voltage impulses. And you can survive these, as they shouldn't cause any significant damage. But a Lightning Bolt/Ball spell uses something akin to their real counterpart. As with wall sockets, it's not the voltage that kills - it's the sole amount of electrical current, that hurts the target. So it's not a 'safe' (or should i write 'semi-safe') ammount of electricity. Even if a Force 3 Lighning Bolt isn't much, it's still as painfull as a .22 round. Even if your armor absorbs most of it...
And as for what Voydangel wrote, yes, but 'immunity to normal weapons' means knives, clubs, bullets, and shotgun shots. Not shoving a live wire into the spirit's manifested form... But i'd still say: magical, or no, you can't hurt a fire spirit with fire. That's just stupid...
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As Dead Monky wrote - tasers can really hurt someone. I'm not really what you'd call 'a scientific mind', but as far as i remeber, tasers, and other shock weapons use high voltage impulses. And you can survive these, as they shouldn't cause any significant damage. But a Lightning Bolt/Ball spell uses something akin to their real counterpart. As with wall sockets, it's not the voltage that kills - it's the sole amount of electrical current, that hurts the target. So it's not a 'safe' (or should i write 'semi-safe') ammount of electricity. Even if a Force 3 Lighning Bolt isn't much, it's still as painfull as a .22 round. Even if your armor absorbs most of it...
One slight clarification, though. While current is what kills, current is entirely derived from Voltage and Resistances. In other words, low voltage, high resistance, low current. Of course, it only takes 5 mA across the heart to kill. . .
The other factor is the Energy. If it's high voltage, it still won't create that large current if the energy source can't supply power for a sufficient time. So, even though the average taser is dealing with over 10 kV, there's no energy to sustain a real current, you freak and hit the floor (or die, if you're epileptic / various other neurological / chemical issues / in a copper bathtub). Whereas, though a power outlet is 110 V, it's got a sustained energy source to draw from and can build up the current through your body (up to V/R, where R is the resistance of your body).
Just a little electrical engineering for everyone.
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Actual electrical engineering knowledge is better than my third-hand pillaging from Wiki. Ain't it? ;D
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I was waiting for a clarification like that. My engineering-and-science english is really bad. I could express myself in polish, but that wouldn't help much. :P
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I was waiting for a clarification like that. My engineering-and-science english is really bad. I could express myself in polish, but that wouldn't help much. :P
I'd hate to try and repeat any of what I said in Latin. Sadly, that's the only other language I'm any good with and I'm horribly rusty with that.
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Ipso facto.
What about something called Attack of Will? I don't really remember that in the rules? Where is it from, and how does it work? Street Magic perhaps?
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Street Magic p. 94
But it pretty much sucks.
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Sucks? I don't think so. A spirit attacks, there's no magician around. What do you do? Send in the Face. :)
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Sucks? I don't think so. A spirit attacks, there's no magician around. What do you do? Send in the Face. :)
If my guns can't harm the spirit, i'm definedly not gonna trust my ass on the face hitting the spirit in melee(why is the spirit even in the faces melee range) with his willpower as dicepool for the attack.
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Well, what about Edge? Willpower+Edge is a pretty good pool. In a ditch, the whole party can go for it, and drive away, or even (with a bit of luck on the rolls) disrupt the spirit. Even a powerfull (high-Force) spirit will think twice, when he gets hurt by mere humans. And it's an Attack of Will, so if the PC's are determined, they can win.
Especially, when their characters know it can work.
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Sucks? I don't think so. A spirit attacks, there's no magician around. What do you do? Send in the Face. :)
If my guns can't harm the spirit, i'm definedly not gonna trust my ass on the face hitting the spirit in melee(why is the spirit even in the faces melee range) with his willpower as dicepool for the attack.
Using the Face from SR4A, pg. 103, fighting against a Force 4 Spirit of Man (which happens to know dodge)
Spirit of Man Relevant Stats:
Reaction: 6
Body: 5
Magic: 4
Dodge: 4
Relevant Face Stats:
Gun: 4P, 0 AP
Agility: 3
Pistols: 2
Charisma: 5
Willpower: 5
Edge: 4
Attack with gun:
DP 5 vs 6 Rea, average result of 1 Hit vs 2 Hits.
IF he gets lucky and rolls 2 hits, still nothing
Attack with gun + Edge
DP 9 vs 6 Rea, average result of 3 Hits vs 2 Hits
5P vs Hardened 8 Armor.
Even if 6's explode, not likely to bring him to the net 3 hits he needs to (possibly) damage the spirit.
Attack of Will:
DP 5 vs 10 (REA + Dodge). . . he ain't gonna win this.
Attack of Will with Edge:
DP 9 vs DP 10, net hits 3 vs 3, still no hit
If he gets lucky and 6's explode to give him 1 more hit:
No hardened armor, Spirit now has to soak:
6P vs DP 5, average 1 or 2 hits, he's taking 4 or 5 physical damage.
So, Attack of Will isn't a great solution, but for a non-combat character, if he somehow ends up trapped with a spirit and can't run / doesn't have a taser, his best choice is to dump edge into Attacks of Will. He's got 4 Edge, and this is assuming there's no combat modifiers (everything but Reach applies) in his favor. Granted, those mods could be in the Spirit's favor, as well. . .
This guy would be shooting the spirit all damn day with no results, but with an edge-enhanced attack of will, he can at least get the bastard's attention & make him think twice. Possibly stalling long enough for backup to arrive.
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yes it migh do some good for that sample face on a one on one fight with a spirits of such a low force, but i would still rather the teams sammy shooting the spirit.
Sammy:
shooting pool 15(a bit on the low side, but that proves the point better)
Assault rifle loaded with EX-EX 7P AP-2
Same spirit as above example
Attack with the gun:
DP 15vs DP6 avarage result 3 net hits for the sammy
10P vs 6 points of hardened armor
oh yeah the spirits taking damage, make it a long or full burst and the spirit is a goner.
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yes it migh do some good for that sample face on a one on one fight with a spirits of such a low force, but i would still rather the teams sammy shooting the spirit.
Sammy:
shooting pool 15(a bit on the low side, but that proves the point better)
Assault rifle loaded with EX-EX 7P AP-2
Same spirit as above example
Attack with the gun:
DP 15vs DP6 avarage result 3 net hits for the sammy
10P vs 6 points of hardened armor
oh yeah the spirits taking damage, make it a long or full burst and the spirit is a goner.
Never once argued with that. I'm just saying it's not always the worst possible solution, as several people had implied.
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In many cases, attacks of will are the only viable option, even if the results aren't optimal.
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I just really can't see a situation in witch it would be of any use, part of that might ofcourse be the fact that most of my face builds carry defiance ex-shockers with them and have diepool to use them a lot higher then their willpower.
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I'd rule non-magical stun damage causing weapons as 'normal' anyway. No tazing the BigBadAngrySpirit.
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Uhm, they ARE normal weapons. But they reduce armor by half, so if you can HIT the spirit, you will most likely HURT the spirit. And with the side effects of tasers it gets even better.
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I'd rule non-magical stun damage causing weapons as 'normal' anyway. No tazing the BigBadAngrySpirit.
Of course their normal, but AP -half helps a lot against the hardened armor provided by the ItNW
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Should it even apply? I'd say not, since that's not really armor, it's just a shortcut - using the existing game mechanics for spirit powers, so you won't have to make more specific rules.
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Should it even apply? I'd say not, since that's not really armor, it's just a shortcut - using the existing game mechanics for spirit powers, so you won't have to make more specific rules.
Yes shurely !
If you don't you've got to make up more Houserules (which You wanted to avoid ;) )
Hough !
Medicineman
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When a spirit or critter with Immunity (Normal Weapons) is attacked, do you only compare double its Essence to the base Power of the weapon (regardless of modifiers, as with the Hardened Armor power), or do you also count modifiers to the Power from burst fire, ammo type, extra successes, etc?
Treat the Immunity power as you would the Hardened Armor power--only use the base Power of the weapon, unmodified by burst fire, ammo type, etc.
I'd go with that one, and treat shock weapons as any other against spirits. So unless you use one bad-ass troll-sized stun baton, it won't work as planned.
And it's not really a house-rule. It's just labeling shock weapons as 'normal'.
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Hardened Armor power--only use the base Power of the weapon, unmodified by burst fire, ammo type, etc.
FAQ Failed (IIRC) again
You add ammo Type & Net Hits to the Base Damage to see weather the Bullets penetrate the Armor !!
What I meant with Houserules is that you have to make up some if don't use the 1/2 Armor Rules of Fire and Electricity (Stick& Schock) for Spirits
HokaHey
Medicineman
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ItnW is just a fancy name for plain Hardened Armor. So by RAW, it gets modified by AP and other modifiers.
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When a spirit or critter with Immunity (Normal Weapons) is attacked, do you only compare double its Essence to the base Power of the weapon (regardless of modifiers, as with the Hardened Armor power), or do you also count modifiers to the Power from burst fire, ammo type, extra successes, etc?
Treat the Immunity power as you would the Hardened Armor power--only use the base Power of the weapon, unmodified by burst fire, ammo type, etc.
I'd go with that one, and treat shock weapons as any other against spirits. So unless you use one bad-ass troll-sized stun baton, it won't work as planned.
And it's not really a house-rule. It's just labeling shock weapons as 'normal'.
And once again the FAQ shows why it not worth the bits its stored on, by blatantly contradicting the rulebooks.
Here's a quote of the actual text of the hardened armor.
Hardened Armor (Paranormal)
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
Hardened Armor is even tougher than normal armor. If
the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the
Hardened Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then
it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don’t even bother to make a
Damage Resistance Test. Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides
both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating.
The relevant parts bolded by me
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Heh. Good to know. House-rule then.
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Heh. Good to know. House-rule then.
You actually want to make spirits the ultimate i-win button for pc mages.
So pretty much only needed member for a PC team is the Angel Summoner.
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A house rule like that will most likely mean you will have to railroad the encounters to the mage fighting of spirits while being totally ignored by every other guard/enemy/whatever. Because if the mage goes down and there are spirits left on the enemy side, the group will die.
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Erm. Not really. There won't be much in the way of spirits, as i know how much can be done with their help (i'm a Mage player and GM with a soft spot for the Spirit Arcanum). It will just be harder to fight them without big guns and/or strong will.
And that pretty much gives my players an advantage, as we're playing a street level campaign.
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How much Magic and Summoning skill does the mage have? Because even Force 4 spirits would be pretty much invincible if you stick to your prior statement and rule Hardened Armor to "only use the base Power of the weapon, unmodified by burst fire, ammo type, etc." There simply isn't anything around on Street Level with a DV of >8 except for grenades and good luck hitting a sprit with one of those...
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There simply isn't anything around on Street Level with a DV of >8 except for grenades and good luck hitting anything with one of those...
Fixed that one for you ;)
Kot your not giving you players just an advantage, your giving your teams mage an unstoppaple i-win button that can curb stomp any and all opposition, un less the go up against a wiz-gang.
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Keep in mind that even with the electrical boost, someone with SNS rounds only does 1 damage box to a Force 6 spirit per net hit. Without armor modification, anything up to an assault rifle needs six net hits just to damage a Force 6 spirit. So at the street level you're basically giving your mage the ability to summon multiple invincible combatants. That's what Max means by an "I win" button. There's basically no risk to the mage and no way for the normies to take out the spirits.
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Keep in mind that even with the electrical boost, someone with SNS rounds only does 1 damage box to a Force 6 spirit per net hit.
HUH???
If there are no house rules involved S&S with the one net-hit reguired to hit does 7S(e) damage to force six spirit, resisted by the spirits body+half impact armor.
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Keep in mind that even with the electrical boost, someone with SNS rounds only does 1 damage box to a Force 6 spirit per net hit.
HUH???
If there are no house rules involved S&S with the one net-hit reguired to hit does 7S(e) damage to force six spirit, resisted by the spirits body+half impact armor.
Yeah, I took a shortcut to make the point. Even with the house rule, the base DV and armor are equal, although that doesn't automatically cancel out. So its more like 4+net hits. The second half was really the important bit. Unless you have an insane dice pool (18+ not counting the spirit's Dodge value), full auto and/or called shots are basically the only way to consistently hurt materialized spirits with unmodifiable armor. Well, that and magic anyway.
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Well auto fire doesn't actually help at all against hardened armor.
The damage bonus from extra bullets is only calculated in after the armor comparison.
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So yeah. One Force six spirit is going to eventually ruin a whole gang's day pretty much every time.
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The way I read the FAQ its even worse, successes don't count either. Its unmodified base DV of the weapon VS spirits hardened armor. So according to that FAQ ruling you can't harm a Force 4 spirit with a heavy machinegun. Ever.
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I just finished testing that one. You're right. A rating 3 six-person ganger group got mauled by a force 3 beast spirit in eight rounds. With only one ganger surviving the attack, and the spirit taking a whooping 1 damage from a lucky shotgun shell from a Remington Roomsweeper. So, scrapping that one. Though my players probably will use S'n'S in their first run, and will have the leftovers for later, in case of spirits...
And i think i'll do this on a hunch, whenever spirits come into play. So, two corp security guards need at least 5-10 rounds to get rid of a spirit. That's enough time bought. :)
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The way I read the FAQ its even worse, successes don't count either. Its unmodified base DV of the weapon VS spirits hardened armor. So according to that FAQ ruling you can't harm a Force 4 spirit with a heavy machinegun. Ever.
For purposes of whether or not a shot gets through hardened armor, its modified DV (which I take to include both net hits and modifiers for Called Shots, bursts etc) vs modified armor rating (modified by AP). SR4a 295. Exactly what constitutes modified DV is my own interpretation. The rest is explicit. So as I see it, any single attack that does damage>armor will make it through ITNW.
Edit: Except that narrow bursts explicitly do not apply to armor comparisons. SR4A 153.
So net hits add to effective DV. Called shots add to effective DV. AP reduces armor accordingly. Bursts add to damage but won't help you get through the spirit's hardened armor. As a mundane your options are basically SNS or APDS in an assault rifle.
Moral of the story: Spend a few thousand nuyen on a clip of naga venom.
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Its modified DV by book RAW, yes, but not by FAQ RAW, which contradicts the book RAW in saying that its unmodified DV. Which is one of the many reasons I do not even bother to look at the FAQ anymore, whoever wrote it had no idea of the game, the rules, or basic common sense.
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Moral of the story: Spend a few thousand nuyen on a clip of naga venom.
What, no enchanted anti-(spirit type) bullets yet?
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Not possible by RAW (neither book or FAQ ;))
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Technically, it can be done, but it is karma intensive.
Anchoring meta-magic loads a "spirit killer" spell onto a bullet, with a trigger of "contact with spirit."
Shoot bullet.
Spirit goes poof.
Mage then spends the next two or three sessions building up the karma he just spent on anchoring that spell.
Like I said, technically possible, but really impractical.
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True, forgot about that, sorry.
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Well, aside from paracritter venom I guess you could have Hire-A-Spirit. Pay you local Street Shaman well enough and he'll summon a spirit and say "this guy gets all your services". If there's already a spirit on your tail you have to survive that long, though.
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Yeah, that's that. :)
Or you could devise a spell to re-create the 'Elemental Strike' Adept power, to cast on others.
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Interesting idea, but probably won't do much good, since not many non-melee-adepts have the dicepool to even hit a spirit in melee.
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But Elemental Strike is not a 'normal weapon', and counts as a magic effect, as far as i remember.
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Yes, but that only affects if the spirit has armor. It doesn't affect the tons of dice spirits can roll to dodge skywards to get out of melee reach.
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But Elemental Strike is not a 'normal weapon', and counts as a magic effect, as far as i remember.
Yes, but you still have to actually hit the spirit in melee(that the spirit doesn't really have a reason to even be)
Oh, by the way that spell is called elemental aura and can be found in page 173 of street magic. ;)