Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Darrian Wolffe on <11-11-10/2110:33>
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OK, so I'm running a relatively low-powered game, core SR4A book only (the splats are getting released a little at a time to simulate the progression of SOTA). Dice pools are limited to 16 dice, runners aren't twinking out specific skills, the fastest guy in the group as 3 IPs and everyone else has 2, ballistic armor ratings are in the single-digits, wireless isn't universal, and so forth. Very SR1/2 feel. So far, it's worked pretty well (for those of you who remember your older modules, the runners just found Madame Ullishia's corpse in their search for the necklace "Blood"). However...
1) Knockdown. Take your Body or more damage in a shot and automatically fall prone. Well...everybody is getting knocked over. PC, NPC...doesn't matter (they don't have a Troll and haven't gone up against one yet). And frankly, that simply doesn't happen. It's breaking our suspension of disbelief. It's the whole "automatically" bit that's getting us. We generally feel that there should be a test of some sort to avoid falling prone if you take more damage than your Body rating. Assuming I institute a house-rule along those lines, am I going to throw anything seriously out of whack?
2) Stick N' Shock. OK, this crap is flat-out busted when it comes to game balance. Right now, we're in kind of a detente where "GM won't use it against the players if the player's don't start using it heavily against NPCs". Aside from arbitrarily giving everybody in the game world either 30 free rounds of S'NS, or Rating X Electric Resistance, anybody got any good ideas about how to deal with this? My players through the earlier editions of SR went out of their way not to use broken stuff they found in the system (or read about on dumpshock), but this stuff has to potential to become a real problem, and there isn't a good way to keep PCs from getting it that doesn't feel excessively arbitrary. Combined with the low-powered, low-optimization game we've got going, this stuff blows people out of the water. How do you folks handle the stuff, and/or given a game in which splats and high-dice combos aren't in play, how would you handle it?
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Any of the weapons that use the electricity rules are down right nasty. Be it a stun baton, taser or stick n shock. A bit of nonconductivity for the more important NPCs could be one way to go. It will surprise them when they don't automatically get zapped since you then get your full armor not the half of impact that you would otherwise.
As far as the knockback as long as it is universal it doesn't matter if you make some house rule. The other option is if you want to have a cinematic type effect you could use the house rule of an agility or reaction roll, but only for the PCs and important NPCs.
The other option for the electrical problem is only do the damage and ignore the stunning effect I know a couple of the GMs at GENCON were running it this way. As long as it is the same for everyone shadowrun is pretty easy to tweak to your groups personal liking as you know in what you have done already to limit the power of characters which is part of the reason you are having the issues you are right now, but just adapt more to correct it.
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1) Knockdown. Take your Body or more damage in a shot and automatically fall prone. Well...everybody is getting knocked over. PC, NPC...doesn't matter (they don't have a Troll and haven't gone up against one yet). And frankly, that simply doesn't happen. It's breaking our suspension of disbelief. It's the whole "automatically" bit that's getting us. We generally feel that there should be a test of some sort to avoid falling prone if you take more damage than your Body rating. Assuming I institute a house-rule along those lines, am I going to throw anything seriously out of whack?
I think this is not so much a matter of physics as self control. If you're taking 1/3-1/2 of your damage track in a single shot, trying to keep your knees from giving out reflexively is going to be a real effort. Anyone who takes a solid hit and keeps advancing is either a total badass or hopped up on drugs. If you like that logic you might want a house rule that people with an enhanced pain tolerance can stay on their feet.
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Any of the weapons that use the electricity rules are down right nasty. Be it a stun baton, taser or stick n shock. A bit of nonconductivity for the more important NPCs could be one way to go. It will surprise them when they don't automatically get zapped since you then get your full armor not the half of impact that you would otherwise.
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I believe that with non-conductivity you still lose half your armor. The bonus is that you get to add the rating of your non-conductivity enhancement to your armor after the halving. So if you have 10 impact armor with rating 6 non-conductivity modification and get zapped you lose half 10/2 = 5, but then add 6 to it for a total armor of 11 vs the electrical attack. Although, I can't seem to recall exactly where I read this and can't find the RAW in the books. But hopefully somsone will come along after me with a page number or something...
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1) Knockdown. Take your Body or more damage in a shot and automatically fall prone. Well...everybody is getting knocked over. PC, NPC...doesn't matter (they don't have a Troll and haven't gone up against one yet). And frankly, that simply doesn't happen. It's breaking our suspension of disbelief. It's the whole "automatically" bit that's getting us. We generally feel that there should be a test of some sort to avoid falling prone if you take more damage than your Body rating. Assuming I institute a house-rule along those lines, am I going to throw anything seriously out of whack?
An additional thing to keep in mind is that, although you may not like it, and it may kill your suspension of disbelief, is that the rule is actually pretty accurate to real world effects. If your average person gets shot and it's anything more than a grazing wound, they're gonna take a knee, or more. Heck, even most grazing shots are gonna put someone on a knee. Ask a cop or military person who's been shot, whether it hits armor or not - there's a lot of kinetic force being slogged around there, so it's really not all that off base.
However, your enjoyment of the game is far more important than rules simulating real world physics, whether they're correct or not, so I would personally sit down and come up with a house rule that everyone can agree on that makes the game better for your group. Nomadzophiel had a good idea, and there are many others possible as well.
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Any of the weapons that use the electricity rules are down right nasty. Be it a stun baton, taser or stick n shock. A bit of nonconductivity for the more important NPCs could be one way to go. It will surprise them when they don't automatically get zapped since you then get your full armor not the half of impact that you would otherwise.
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I believe that with non-conductivity you still lose half your armor. The bonus is that you get to add the rating of your non-conductivity enhancement to your armor after the halving. So if you have 10 impact armor with rating 6 non-conductivity modification and get zapped you lose half 10/2 = 5, but then add 6 to it for a total armor of 11 vs the electrical attack. Although, I can't seem to recall exactly where I read this and can't find the RAW in the books. But hopefully somsone will come along after me with a page number or something...
The nonconductive armor upgrade (p. 327) adds its full rating to the armor value.
Electrical insulation and grounding materials protect the wearer against Electricity damage (p. 163), adding its full rating to the armor value.
Emphasis mine.
You have been RAW-fued
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@voydangel: It's the other way around. Gunshots don't have all that much energy. If they did, Newton's 3rd Law would put the shooter on his ass too. It's not just theory either, Mythbusters has tackled the subject at least once. It's surprise and shock that puts people down. Folks who get shot accidentally, from behind, etc. such that they're not expecting it often don't even realize they've been shot (e.g., they think they've been stung or punched instead).
That said, the end result is the same. People tend to panic and fall over when they're injured.
FYI, here's a discussion of the subject: http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-81777.html
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1) An easy fix I'd use would be changing the line of text from "Body" to "Body + Will." Tough or crazy (or both) people stay on their feet while getting shot, and everyday schlubs who take a serious hit will still go into shock and fall over squalling like a stuck pig. Rather than instituting a roll (and slowing things down), you're just changing the threshold, so it's not as clunky as letting folks roll to stay on their feet used to be.
2) Yup. Stick and Shock was one of the first things I started a conversation about once I got onto the right Google Group and had the ear of various game devs. I don't like how it's currently set up, and neither do an awful lot of other folks. The quickest and easiest fix would be to remember how cheap electrically insulated armor is (for starters), and then to change it so that it -- like gel rounds -- just turns the existing DV of a firearm into stun and electrical damage. The electrical effect means it can still be a mundane's answer to spirits and whatever, but making the SnS DV dependent on the DV of the gun means no more packing 'em into hold-outs just to be a douche (and even kind of makes sense, since the bigger the round the bigger the capacitors, etc, etc).
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2) Yup. Stick and Shock was one of the first things I started a conversation about once I got onto the right Google Group and had the ear of various game devs. I don't like how it's currently set up, and neither do an awful lot of other folks. The quickest and easiest fix would be to remember how cheap electrically insulated armor is (for starters), and then to change it so that it -- like gel rounds -- just turns the existing DV of a firearm into stun and electrical damage. The electrical effect means it can still be a mundane's answer to spirits and whatever, but making the SnS DV dependent on the DV of the gun means no more packing 'em into hold-outs just to be a douche (and even kind of makes sense, since the bigger the round the bigger the capacitors, etc, etc).
To me, there's no reason to change the DV. The current DV is in line with tasers. Some do more, some do less but they average out to about 6S. All of them are essentially holdout or light pistols. A few of them fire darts that don't need wires, which are essentially stick'n'shock rounds in their native habitat. Stick'n'shock, kind of like flechette, allows a regular gun to be competitive with a specialty gun. If you feel the need to base DV on the gun's base plus or minus something, DV+2S seems about right when comparing light pistols to tasers. Unfortunately that means that any heavier weapon will actually do more than 6S.
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2) Yup. Stick and Shock was one of the first things I started a conversation about once I got onto the right Google Group and had the ear of various game devs. I don't like how it's currently set up, and neither do an awful lot of other folks. The quickest and easiest fix would be to remember how cheap electrically insulated armor is (for starters), and then to change it so that it -- like gel rounds -- just turns the existing DV of a firearm into stun and electrical damage. The electrical effect means it can still be a mundane's answer to spirits and whatever, but making the SnS DV dependent on the DV of the gun means no more packing 'em into hold-outs just to be a douche (and even kind of makes sense, since the bigger the round the bigger the capacitors, etc, etc).
As an electrical engineer, I just said "screw it" and decided that Stick-n-Shock only came in shotgun-slug form. Pistol bullets are too damn tiny to handle any kind of reasonable capacitance, I don't care about the tech advances, physics doesn't really support a practical electro-shock device in small rounds. At the same end, the insanely high forces common to machine-guns, sport rifles, and sniper rounds would wreck havoc on a capacitor, likely causing it to simply rupture in the chamber.
Yes, we've got massively more advanced technology, but there are limits to the physics involved with high-voltage capacitance and we've just about hit them when it comes to packaging them into man-portable weapons.
Remember, the taser either has leads or fires a fairly large capacitor at a fairly low velocity.
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Any of the weapons that use the electricity rules are down right nasty. Be it a stun baton, taser or stick n shock. A bit of nonconductivity for the more important NPCs could be one way to go. It will surprise them when they don't automatically get zapped since you then get your full armor not the half of impact that you would otherwise.
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I believe that with non-conductivity you still lose half your armor. The bonus is that you get to add the rating of your non-conductivity enhancement to your armor after the halving. So if you have 10 impact armor with rating 6 non-conductivity modification and get zapped you lose half 10/2 = 5, but then add 6 to it for a total armor of 11 vs the electrical attack. Although, I can't seem to recall exactly where I read this and can't find the RAW in the books. But hopefully somsone will come along after me with a page number or something...
The nonconductive armor upgrade (p. 327) adds its full rating to the armor value.
Electrical insulation and grounding materials protect the wearer against Electricity damage (p. 163), adding its full rating to the armor value.
Emphasis mine.
You have been RAW-fued
Yes, the full rating of the non-conductivity is added to the armor, but that does not mean that you don't still have to reduce your base impact armor by half first.
Specific trumps general, as we all agree. Well, the general rule is that you get full impact armor to resist non-ballistic damage. then the specific rule of -half armor due to it being electricity kicks in. then the rule where you add the full rating of non-conductivity to to that kicks in. Nowhere in the nonconductivity does it say you get to add the full rating to your full armor rating. It says exactly what you wrote: add the full rating of the non-conductivity mod to your armor rating. And in this case armor = 1/2 impact. ;)
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@Stick & Schock
A lot of German Groups developed 2 Houserules
1) S&S Ammo only in Shotguns and (assault)Rifles and up
2) no increase of Damage with Net Hits (only for Burst Fire)
HokaHey
Medicineman
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2) Yup. Stick and Shock was one of the first things I started a conversation about once I got onto the right Google Group and had the ear of various game devs. I don't like how it's currently set up, and neither do an awful lot of other folks. The quickest and easiest fix would be to remember how cheap electrically insulated armor is (for starters), and then to change it so that it -- like gel rounds -- just turns the existing DV of a firearm into stun and electrical damage. The electrical effect means it can still be a mundane's answer to spirits and whatever, but making the SnS DV dependent on the DV of the gun means no more packing 'em into hold-outs just to be a douche (and even kind of makes sense, since the bigger the round the bigger the capacitors, etc, etc).
Oh god i hope you don't get that rule into the books, because that turns S&S into best ammo there is for every and all weapon types.
At least currently its only really good in the small guns. as the big guns lose damage if they use them.
Really even with that rule i would still load my hold-outs with S&S for the -half impact armor, but i would also load every single one of my other weapons with S&S too as there would be no reason what so ever to not load my sniper rifle with them.
That rule idea is fifteen miles beyond broken.
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At the end of the day, I mostly ignore physics for game balance. Should a sniper rifle with rubber bullets still be lethal? Probably if you do the math on muzzle velocity and whatnot. Is there anything wrong with sniper rifles having a non-lethal round? No. Same thing with S&S. Should a .22 be able to carry a capacitor, even accounting for carbon nanotubes? Maybe not. Then again, .22 flech rounds don't really make sense either. You just can't fit that many slivers. Flechette guns and tasers are both cheap because they can only mount the one type of ammo. Equivalent guns that can take different ammo loadouts are more expensive. It pretty much balances out. YMMV
Max makes a pretty good point. Small guns used by non-combat specialist characters on non-combat specialist characters get a nice advantage. When the heavies come out to play, they're using guns that don't benefit as much against armor that is probably insulated. The latter is sort of a second order consequence. If s'n's is cheap and effective, its going to be very common. If the countermeasure against it is also cheap and effective, its also going to be common. Sort of like my "everyone owns an emotitoy" logic elsewhere. So yes, that means that if everyone is using s'n's, insulation may be standard by 2075 in new armor. From a gameplay perspective, though, ignoring half impact armor may be exactly the thing that keeps a lone PC alive.
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1) The quick and dirty patch I proposed here is not, trust me, the SnS fix I'd like to see. It's not the one I proposed formally. It's a fast, easy, change that just turns SnS ammo functionally into Gel Rounds, except that they get the elemental damage effect (so mundanes still have a way to hurt spirits) instead of the +2 for knockdown effect Gel Rounds get. I know it's not a perfect fix, but remember they'd still cost almost three times as much as Gel Rounds, they'd be less effective against mundane targets (since they only retain the elemental damage tag in order to hurt spirits, compared to getting a knockdown bonus on everyone, and insulated armor would still help extra), and that a Hold-Out with SnS wouldn't be a magic wand any more. Is it terrific? Of course not. But I think it's an easy house rule, that slaps a band-aid on a few of the key issues.
2) What I actually proposed for SnS, I won't get into full details here, because I'm just a freelancer and it's not up to me anyways...and also because none of it's been shot down yet, so I'd like to keep it hush-hush just in case it does go official. Suffice it to say it was a five bullet-point proposal that's larger than a standard screen of text.
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@Stick & Schock
A lot of German Groups developed 2 Houserules
1) S&S Ammo only in Shotguns and (assault)Rifles and up
2) no increase of Damage with Net Hits (only for Burst Fire)
HokaHey
Medicineman
I really like #2, I might use that. Definitely curbs abusing it and puts it kind of in line with a tazer, which was the original intent near as I can tell.
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It's a fast, easy, change that just turns SnS ammo functionally into Gel Rounds
I can't fathom how you can with a straight face say that an ammo that keeps the guns damage same and gives AP -half is in any way at the same level as ammo that has -1 to damage and AP +2.
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Someone mentioned capacitance in a small round earlier.
I'd like to posit a piezoelectric power source for the round.
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It's a fast, easy, change that just turns SnS ammo functionally into Gel Rounds
I can't fathom how you can with a straight face say that an ammo that keeps the guns damage same and gives AP -half is in any way at the same level as ammo that has -1 to damage and AP +2.
I can't help but feel like I'm continuing to be fundamentally misunderstood here. I've said several times that it retains its elemental effect status only to damage spirits and only so that special anti-electrical armor works extra against it.
It doesn't give the AP -half. It only counts as special elemental damage when it's bad for the SnS shooter (when facing insulated armor) or in a very specialized instance (to damage spirits that need elemental effects).
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It's a fast, easy, change that just turns SnS ammo functionally into Gel Rounds
I can't fathom how you can with a straight face say that an ammo that keeps the guns damage same and gives AP -half is in any way at the same level as ammo that has -1 to damage and AP +2.
I can't feel like I'm continuing to be fundamentally misunderstood here. I've said several times that it retains its elemental effect status only to damage spirits and only so that special anti-electrical armor works extra against it?
It doesn't give the AP -half. It only counts as special elemental damage when it's bad for the SnS shooter (when facing insulated armor) or in a very specialized instance (to damage spirits that need elemental effects).
Well that just doesn't make any sense what so ever.
Either somethink is an elemental attack or it isn't.
And yes those to lines would be my answer to GM house ruling like that.
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That's fine. That's part of the nature of house rules, and why I dislike them. I dislike the need for them even more, which is why I'd rather see a complete overhaul of stick and shock instead of a quick band-aid like this.
So, I shared my quick-and-dirty and admittedly imperfect suggestion for how problems can be fixed, any chance you've got something constructive to add to the thread instead of just hyperventilating and waving your arms around while shrieking about how bad other peoples' advice is?
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Keep them as they are, it's not like they're the best ammo for all weapons nor all situations.
Yeah they rock in hold-outs, but for the ranges one typically uses those the 8S taser works just as well(or actually better as it does more damage)
And sorry about misunderstanding your house rule, that happened cos someones house rule proposition over at dumpshock was exactly as i thought yours to be
ie. make S&S use the weapons damage code instead of the fixed 6S, keeping rest of it's rules the same.
Also sorry about that last reply, i know it was kinda hostileish, i just have a heavy disslike for totally unlogical rules.
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Someone mentioned capacitance in a small round earlier.
I'd like to posit a piezoelectric power source for the round.
Many already are piezoelectric vice capacitive. However, you run into the same size limitations with piezoelectric as with capacitors. Additionally, the added force of the gunpowder exploding is liable to set off the piezoelectric action prematurely due to the impact pressure of the explosion.
It's a fast, easy, change that just turns SnS ammo functionally into Gel Rounds
I can't fathom how you can with a straight face say that an ammo that keeps the guns damage same and gives AP -half is in any way at the same level as ammo that has -1 to damage and AP +2.
I can't help but feel like I'm continuing to be fundamentally misunderstood here. I've said several times that it retains its elemental effect status only to damage spirits and only so that special anti-electrical armor works extra against it.
It doesn't give the AP -half. It only counts as special elemental damage when it's bad for the SnS shooter (when facing insulated armor) or in a very specialized instance (to damage spirits that need elemental effects).
Maybe I've just been reading something wrong all along, immunity to normal weapons reads as follows:
Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept powers or critter powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.
Elemental attacks from a mundane weapon, from my reading of the above, are still subject to the Immunity, they just grant their -half impact Armor, making it plausible to affect a spirit with stick-n-shock.
House ruling "stick-n-shock damages spirits and is affected by non-conductive but no longer grants -half armor" doesn't really make sense if what I just said makes any sense. A stick-n-shock round is a non-magical weapon, subject to Immunity to Normal Weapons, but it grants -half AP. Am I to take it then, that your house rule is actually two house rules:
"Immunity to Normal Weapons does not apply to elemental effects from non-magical sources" and "Stick-n-shock is the only electrical effect in the game which doesn't grant -half impact armor."?
If so, cool. If not, could you explain how elemental non-magical attacks are exempt from Immunity to Normal Weapons when the immunity is to all weapons which are not intrinsically magical. They even give a complete list of magical attacks for reference.
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His house rule seems(to me) be that S&S only grants -half AP against spirits.
No, it doesn't make any sense what so ever, but that didn't seem to be a high priority for him.
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I don't institute house rules unless there's a major game balance issue. They're like nukes, to me. I don't use them unless I really, really, need to. And if I really, really, need to, I don't care so much about "making sense," because I can cook up whatever crazy fluff I need to to make a square peg fit a round hole -- what my primary concern is, if a game issue has gotten so bad that I'm considering a house rule, is fixing the problem.
So my intent is to make them (a) less appealing as the automatic, go-to, ammo for Hold-Outs and Light Pistols, (b) keep them a viable option for Mundanes tackling Spirits, because they're one of the few ways they can even make the attempt, and (c) keep the anti-electrical defenses (armor mods) just because if I'm even contemplating a house rule it's because SnS is crazy out of control and I'd rather underpower, than overpower, them.
So, yeah. My quick and ugly and admittedly imperfect suggestion -- that's not, please remember, my actual serious proposal to the SnS issue, game-wide -- is very simple, and doesn't necessarily make sense, but what it does is (in my opinion) keep SnS there as a specialized ammo type that can still give mundanes a shot against spirits, puts them roughly on-par with gel rounds as a nonlethal ammo option in most cases, but allows player characters and well equipped NPCs to be ready for the latter application by still protecting themselves.
Y'all don't have to like it. Hell, even Darrian and his buddies -- an old gaming group of mine -- don't have to. I'm just tossing ideas out there that will fix what I perceive as the SnS issues with a minimum of muss and fuss.
If you've got a better suggestion, I'm sure the forum is all ears.
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Well, since you asked:
Keep S'n'S as is.
Equip NPC light weapons with SNS in direct proportion to the number of PC light weapons with it.
When PC's begin buying electrical insulation, outfit NPC's in direct proportion.
Very shortly, things will balance out.
Basically, the best test of what's effective is the PC's. If they're ALL using something, then chances are that everyone else is, too. Both SNS and electrically resistant armor are pretty inexpensive and SNS has the (to most characters) benefit of being non-lethal. So its very likely that the ammo will be widely adopted then the defense will be widely adopted in response to the prevelance of the ammo.
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Well, that's not exactly true. If the PCs are ALL using something, there's a good chance that most other special ops agents are using it too. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's the right choice for rent-a-cops or corpexec bodyguards or Johnsons or Stuff Shack cashiers or anybody else.
(And for that matter, it doesn't even mean that all 'runners favor it. People aren't always rational, especially when it comes to gear.)
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Well, since you asked:
Keep S'n'S as is.
Equip NPC light weapons with SNS in direct proportion to the number of PC light weapons with it.
When PC's begin buying electrical insulation, outfit NPC's in direct proportion.
Very shortly, things will balance out.
So your house rule is "just keep doing what you've been doing, not using it for as long as the PCs don't use it."
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1st, short of the ranges, why is SnS in a Hold-out a better option than a taser? The Tasers, and taser ammo, are cheaper and as or more effective than SnS.
Hold-outs give you slightly better ammo and a clip. Tasers give you four in a magazine. (SR4A, pg. 317)
If you need more than 4 shots, you're doing it wrong.
Tasers are cheaper than most light pistols and only 50 nuyen more expensive than the cheapest hold-out and cheaper than all other hold-outs.
Taser ammo is 50 per ten, SnS 80 per ten.
I do not see why the light pistol / hold-out end of the spectrum is the problem. I'd buy a taser, they're cheaper, more available, no license required, and if I don't mind wires, higher damage. At anything greater than 10 meters, you shouldn't be looking at hold-outs and tasers, anyways, so the range advantage of a light pistol is irrelevant.
2nd. Better house rule? okay. . . SnS, due to design complexity & size only works in shotguns. You retain the core function, you don't ignore game physics (which, IMO, is the main reason house rules become "nukes", things stop making sense) and you don't have to go into a bunch of hedging as to why this is. It's simple, it's intuitive & it resolves your perceived SnS problem.
It's a one sentence rule that doesn't require anyone remember the "special" nature of SnS in your world. Sounds better already. It sure beats turning sniper rifles into 9S(e) and your players having to remember that, just this once, they don't get half armor on an electrical attack. This solution isn't perfect either (someone will probably want to put it into an SMG) but no system is ever perfect.
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So your house rule is "just keep doing what you've been doing, not using it for as long as the PCs don't use it."
that sounds suspiciously like "Ignore it until you can't." ;)
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Well, that's not exactly true. If the PCs are ALL using something, there's a good chance that most other special ops agents are using it too. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's the right choice for rent-a-cops or corpexec bodyguards or Johnsons or Stuff Shack cashiers or anybody else.
(And for that matter, it doesn't even mean that all 'runners favor it. People aren't always rational, especially when it comes to gear.)
True, and I should have expanded on that thought a bit. Here, is a less concise version. Keep in mind that this applies to any unusual piece of equipment. This could as easily be about Form Fitting Body armor or Pepper Punch grenades.
Here are my basic assumptions about gameplay that underlie my point:
1. People are generally not stupid about self-preservation or their job (loosely defined as whatever they do for livelihood).
2. NPC's are going to favor the most efficient gear just as much as PC's, subject to their budget and their goals.
3. Shadowrunners are going to face tougher enemies as they advance, rather than the same ones over and over.
4. The PC's are generally a fairly good microcosm of the world they live in. If all of the PC's are using something, its a good indication that it is useful to Shadowrunners and often to the people who try to stop Shadowrunners.
5. Any character with applicable skills knows more about that aspect of the game world than the player does. In other words, anyone with a firearms skill of some sort, anyone with a combat Knowledge skill or anyone who reads "Solo of Fortune" knows that SNS rounds cut right through armor, taze and often KO targets very efficiently. If your PC's know it, so does everyone else.
Based on those, go-gangers probably won't use SNS. For them, looking manly, intimidating and drawing blood is more important than pure stopping power. On the other hand, PC's will have probably quickly advanced beyond being challenged by random gang violence. Rent-a-cops, bodyguards etc. are concerned first and foremost with stopping power. Budget permitting, they're going to use SNS on DV<6 weapons and probably APDS on DV>7 (your math may vary). Whether the person lives or dies isn't going to matter that much in their ammo buying calculus. Fewest shots to incapacitate is. So even as the PC's are adopting those SNS rounds, the gangers aren't. However, those same gangers become less of a threat every time karma is handed out.
On the other hand, the next corpsec team may well have discovered the wonders of SNS. A dead 'runner is all fine and good, but a live KO'd runner can be interrogated or given a new mission in exchange for amnesty.
The first time any team (gang, corpsec, Shadowrunners etc) gets laid low by non-standard weapons, they're going to put some serious thought into plugging that weakness. If the PC's get gassed, they'll have gas masks next time. If Ares loses a prototype because of SNS rounds, they'll have protected armor next time. Note that an armor jacket with rank 6 electrical protection has an effective Impact of 9 vs SNS and 6 vs everything else. RAW you could wear non-conductive form-fitting armor underneath for another 7 against SNS (since form-fitting explicitly stacks).
Once that kind of protection becomes common (if not completely standard), the offense is going to come up with new tactics. When they do, their victims will catch on and both train on the same tactic and on how to defeat it. In a realistic world, Shadowrunners would almost always be on the losing end of this. Corps have a much higher budget for R&D and training. Runners might get away with a particular tactic once, but the corps can always afford to counter it. It might even be amusing to have a "run" where the runners get called in to consult unofficially with a corporate team about their tactics and how to use them.
The end result is basically the same as any house rule. SNS becomes a way to turn a regular pistol into a tazer. Its great for self defense against low-lifes, not so great against anyone who's planning for a fight against professionals.
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So, then, regarding SNS, I'm given to understand I'm basically forced into an arms race against my players where both sides MUST end up upgrading with electrically-resistant armor to do their job, because of one bit of kit that's relatively difficult to get ahold of in the first place, as soon as a player realized the over-effectiveness of the ammo and employs it in a fight? The only way to maintain verisimilitude is to ensure that everybody who matters automatically gets insulated armor (possibly even including Form-fitting)? That seems...excessive.
I rather like the idea of limiting SNS by ammo type, or perhaps Rate of Fire (burst or Full-auto fire is too stressful to the capacitors and they fail to function - that sort of thing). If I were to limit them to SA or SS modes only (a FA-capable machine pistol could still carry them, but could not use BF or FA modes and still get the SNS effect), what unforeseen effects might that have on gameplay? What I'm working against now is the effect of PCs generating 12-18 Stun damage on a regular basis before resistance tests, guaranteeing that the target is OSK'd either by old-fashioned Stun damage, or via the SNS "drop N twitch" effect (since nobody outside of a twinked-out Troll is resisting that kind of damage far enough down not to invoke the SNS effect).
Regarding knockdown, I rather like the idea posited upthread about Body+Will Test (Threshold: net hits) to resist Knockdown. From a game balance perspective, I'm a bit leery of imposing automatic status conditions (prone, in this case) on PCs without at least giving them the chance to resist it. This way, somebody can blow Edge on the B+W test and stay standing even in the face of a solid hit...but falling over is still pretty likely, what with the number of dice being thrown around on attack rolls. Any major problems with this? It's not so much meant to fix a game balance issue as to fix something that's perceived as one. Getting to roll something, even if success is unlikely, is a lot easier to take than anything that says "automatic".
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Depends on what you mean by "forced into an arms race". Short answer: yes.
Long answer: characters in Shadowrun are already in an arms race. Some few Shadowrunners may be able to do their job without violence. The rest are always scrambling for the best weapons and armor they can get. This is a world where people wear armor to walk down the street and street criminals use heavier weapons to compensate. If that's not an arms race, I don't know what is.
Alice knows that Bob has a gun. Alice buys armor so that she can hopefully survive being shot by Bob. Alice and Bob both survive the encounter so Bob adjusts his tactics for the next time he meets Alice. Bob gets a neuro-stun grenade. Alice gets knocked out. So next time Alice has a gas mask and gets stick'n'shock. Bob gets knocked out so Bob gets non-conductive armor and a drone with a sniper rifle, so Alice has to jam the drone. Repeat as necessary. There's always an option that you opponent isn't protected against and its generally not too expensive. In a way, this is why regular bullets survive. When you don't know what the other guy will be packing, its a safe bet that regular old lead will be at least somewhat effective.
Then Simon the Sorcerer comes along and screws them both over with Stunbolt, which they can't buy resistance to.
Keep in mind that there are several things that are cost-comparable to SNS that are even more effective. Any drug delivery of Pepper Punch (base 7S, ignores all unsealed armor) is going to substitute just fine with Nausea replacing electricity. A leal gas grenade costs about the same as 7 bursts of SNS and knocks out a large group even more effectively.
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So, then, regarding SNS, I'm given to understand I'm basically forced into an arms race against my players where both sides MUST end up upgrading with electrically-resistant armor to do their job, because of one bit of kit that's relatively difficult to get ahold of in the first place, as soon as a player realized the over-effectiveness of the ammo and employs it in a fight? The only way to maintain verisimilitude is to ensure that everybody who matters automatically gets insulated armor (possibly even including Form-fitting)? That seems...excessive.
Well, essentially, yes. If you want to accurately reflect how a gritty, cyberpunk world works. When new tactic X appears, counter Y is developed and deployed rapidly. That's how CorpSec and the military work, real world or otherwise.
However, it's also safe to assume that a technology which pre-dates your run and is manufactured by the Megas has already been countered by the megas. As a standard rule of thumb, most of my CorpSec has some amount of non-conductive, for high sec areas, add in fire resistance. They've heard of magic, as well as SnS, they know the risks and the counter-measures are dirt cheap from a Corp standpoint.
I rather like the idea of limiting SNS by ammo type, or perhaps Rate of Fire (burst or Full-auto fire is too stressful to the capacitors and they fail to function - that sort of thing). If I were to limit them to SA or SS modes only (a FA-capable machine pistol could still carry them, but could not use BF or FA modes and still get the SNS effect), what unforeseen effects might that have on gameplay? What I'm working against now is the effect of PCs generating 12-18 Stun damage on a regular basis before resistance tests, guaranteeing that the target is OSK'd either by old-fashioned Stun damage, or via the SNS "drop N twitch" effect (since nobody outside of a twinked-out Troll is resisting that kind of damage far enough down not to invoke the SNS effect).
If they can generate 12 - 18 Stun before resistance, they could use a bullet and generate that much Physical before resist, they'd just have a higher resist to get past. Frankly, if your players are rolling 6+ net hits against your standard mooks, your standard mooks are too weak for the party, scale man, scale. They have profession ratings for a reason. My players are used to closer to 8 or 9 damage with pistols / SA from assault rifles, and I'm convinced I need to up the ante.
I do like the "SA or SS only" idea. Yes, there are unforeseen consequences, but that's true of every decision everyone makes.
Regarding knockdown, I rather like the idea posited upthread about Body+Will Test (Threshold: net hits) to resist Knockdown. From a game balance perspective, I'm a bit leery of imposing automatic status conditions (prone, in this case) on PCs without at least giving them the chance to resist it. This way, somebody can blow Edge on the B+W test and stay standing even in the face of a solid hit...but falling over is still pretty likely, what with the number of dice being thrown around on attack rolls. Any major problems with this? It's not so much meant to fix a game balance issue as to fix something that's perceived as one. Getting to roll something, even if success is unlikely, is a lot easier to take than anything that says "automatic".
I kinda like this, as well. Biggest problem I see is it's one more dice roll. I think that was probably why the dev team put the knockdown as the very very last thing. Once you apply the damage, compare it to body, if it's more, then it's time to fall down now.
Using my groups average of 8 - 9 before resistance, Body 3 (Avg) + Armor 6 (Armor Vest, fairly common) = average of 3 hits. He gets knocked down most of the time (5 or 6 damage). Then again, the average guy taking >50% damage (so to speak) should be on his rear. But big old Troll, Body 8 + Armor 9 (Armor Jackeet, + TROLL!) = average of 5 hits, he stays up, no big surprise (3 or 4 damage).
I'm not sure how I feel on this one, beyond the same general dislike for automatic status effects.
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I have a few more basic assumptions:
- People care a lot about appearances.
- People are superstitious.
- People are bad at statistics.
- People are penny-wise but pound-foolish.
You touched on some of these in your examples, like go-gangers preferring intimidation to effectiveness. Lots of people overlook this, though. My players favor full form-fitting body armor, but realistically a lot of people would skip the hood, gloves, and booties. Players tend to gloss over the fact that stuff like that makes you look like a thug.
The other points cover the main reasons why finding the best gear is not (for PCs) a simple matter of reading Shadowrun Weekly. Maybe we know the mechanics, but the characters are going by anecdotal evidence and corp-sponsored studies, neither of which you can really trust. Then again, the players also go a lot on hearsay and coincidence. When they get burned by gas, maybe they'll overreact and invest heavily in gas defenses. Then again, maybe they'll react like my group and simply not bother. Are the defenses worth the cost and hassle? Different folks will react differently.
And lots of times, even when there's something big at stake, and preparing for it is cheap, people will still blow it off. Think of all the scandals where short-sighted companies spent a lot more covering up a problem and then fixing it after the fact than they would have to simply deal with things up front. There's a lot of wishful thinking and fear out there, and they drive people to do weird things, sometimes overcautious, sometimes reckless.
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Agreed on all points, Brad. I might quibble a bit that if someone has an appropriate Knowledge skill, the characters knows exactly the relative merits and drawbacks of a given ammo type but generally speaking these things can be true of some people (your PC's included, it seems). On a corporate level, though, I tend to think in terms of cost/benefit analysis. Ares loses a multi-million nuyen prototype to Pepper Punch grenades once and they'll be looking at laying out a million to make sure that every security guy in an R&D facility has access to a gas mask. In a world with the kind of black market firepower of SR, the insurance companies alone will require such countermeasures of guards or they'll refuse to pay the claim. That and you just have to feel stupid flushing millions of nuyen stolen by someone tossing glorified jalepeno-water balloons.
However I don't feel a burning need as a GM to house rule and/or remove the things which can be easily counteracted but aren't. If SNS provides enough of a tactical advantage to be ubiquitous then decently competent enemies will have countermeasures. Same goes for walking in the front door (locks and guards), gas (masks), drones (jammers), hackers (IC) and lead (armor). No one complains that guns are unbalanced because characters have to wear armor to survive them. SNS is just a subset of the same argument, one that generally doesn't kill.
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Lose millions to a gas grenade, and I'm sure that somebody would get fired, and somebody else would get a new task force to investigate the cost-benefit analysis of supplying guard posts with gas masks. Depending on that somebody's status, resources, and priorities, the analysis might or might not get done, and they might or might not decide to actually deploy gas masks. If it gets that far, there's the matter of whether the guards actually use the masks effectively.
It's entirely possible that Ares decides it's much cheaper and more effective to simply steal the thing back.
I think it's cool for the world to change and defenses to evolve in response to what the players do, but I don't expect things to happen overnight. In fact, I think most changes could realistically happen so slowly that you'd see very little difference over the course of a campaign.
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Agreed, sort of. To go with the SNS example, if its been on the market for a while and its powerful enough that GM's are considering house rules, chances are its wildly popular. So from the beginning of the campaign, people who are really worried about it will already have countermeasures in place. Same with gas. The examples above are more for things that are new to the game world, rather than to the players and/or GM. Generally I don't go too hard on players who come up with things like this. Corps know that Shadowrunning happens and will continue to happen. they're probably just as happy as anyone if both sides start going non-lethal.
50's Shadowrunner talking about 2072: "I wish we had it as easy as you kids, back in my day it was kill or be killed. We didn't have no fancy shocky rounds. We had lead and we were damn grateful for it when we were walking to the run uphill both ways in the driving snow while fighting off Halloweeners with our bare hands."
50's corp security (now an executive) talking about 2072: "A dead Shadowrunner is not a liability. A living one is an asset."
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Lose millions to a gas grenade, and I'm sure that somebody would get fired, and somebody else would get a new task force to investigate the cost-benefit analysis of supplying guard posts with gas masks. Depending on that somebody's status, resources, and priorities, the analysis might or might not get done, and they might or might not decide to actually deploy gas masks. If it gets that far, there's the matter of whether the guards actually use the masks effectively.
It's entirely possible that Ares decides it's much cheaper and more effective to simply steal the thing back.
I think it's cool for the world to change and defenses to evolve in response to what the players do, but I don't expect things to happen overnight. In fact, I think most changes could realistically happen so slowly that you'd see very little difference over the course of a campaign.
Speaking as someone who works for the modern day equivalent, when SHTF and someone screws up to the tune of a couple 100k, yes, a committee is formed, yes an analysis with cost-benefit crud is accomplished and yes, the results (frankly, regardless of who heads up the committee) get adopted if they make sense and are cost-effective. Also, yes, the insurance agency will come down like a ton of bricks to make you change your practices.
But, yes, it does take months (I'd say 3 to 4, on average, where I work) for all that to happen. And then, there's the training on the new techniques / equipment. And the guards might not actually take advantage of said new techniques / equipment. The biggest failures we have aren't the equipment or the procedures, it's the people. Then again, body armor is something that the guards tend to wear unless it's really warm (after all, you don't want to die) and that's true today. In a future where shadowrunners are semi-commonplace, it'll be all the more true.
Furthermore, in terms of turn-around time, sure it takes months, but how long has SnS (or lightning bolt, or tasers) been on the streets? Try decades. You're particular runner team isn't the first time they've gotten burned. If your corps aren't already prepped and trained on the dangers of electricity wielding madmen, your corps shouldn't have made it to the A-lists. GM's should reasonably assume that a company with over a century (in most cases) of operational history is prepared for most straight-forward tricks in the book by now. Modify, of course, for importance of the facility. They aren't going to have ninjas in thermal-insulated, non-conductive, fire-resistant custom-fitted full body armor at the warehouse where they keep spare parts for last year's model.
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They aren't going to have ninjas in thermal-insulated, non-conductive, fire-resistant custom-fitted full body armor at the warehouse where they keep spare parts for last year's model.
Not that you can see anyway - they are ninjas after all. ;D
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One thing I have noticed in newer Shadowrun adventures is that a lot of folks use non-lethal weapons. Makes sense, really: It still gets the job done, a surviving foe is a potential future asset, and you don't end up with the bad rep of the Azzies. So it wouldn't surprise me to see things like stick 'n shock used pretty widely.
I'm not as sure about defenses. On one hand, it makes sense to protect against a common attack form. On the other hand, it also makes sense to emphasize lethal defenses over non-lethal ones. That way, when some psycho is determined to take you out, you encourage him to do it in a way that isn't actually going to kill you.
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My problem with SNS is not the damage code, its the secondary effects of the elemental damage.
Tassing test with a chance to knock uncontious on each shot. Even if the test is passed the target suffers -2 dice to all rolls for the rest of the combat (effectively), and there is absolutely 0 way to avoid the penalty other than not getting hit by the bullet at all.
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My problem with SNS is not the damage code, its the secondary effects of the elemental damage.
Tassing test with a chance to knock uncontious on each shot. Even if the test is passed the target suffers -2 dice to all rolls for the rest of the combat (effectively), and there is absolutely 0 way to avoid the penalty other than not getting hit by the bullet at all.
(Emphasis added by me)
This is a very good tactic in general. Again, note that SNS's special effect is shared by all tazers and is pretty mild compared to most chemical weapons. You're talking a pseudo KO or a -2, both for 3 combat turns. That's really no worse than pepper spray to the face. Pepper punch has a base strength one higher, ignores all (unsealed) armor, has a similar special effect and is 3 ny per shot cheaper.
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Or completely resisting the damage, which the electrical resistance addon for armor helps with. With no damage inflicted, no secondary damage can be inflicted.
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Cite?
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4A 254 for Nausea, 255 for Pepper Punch
Nausea: Nausea is a catch-all term that covers pain, panic, vomiting,
double vision, and other toxin effects. If the Power of an attack
after the Toxin Resistance Test exceeds the target’s Willpower, she is
incapacitated (unable to take any actions) with vomiting and dizziness
for 3 Combat Turns. Whether or not a character is incapacitated,
nausea doubles all of a character’s wound modifiers for 10 minutes. A
nauseated character with 3 boxes of damage (a –1 wound modifier),
for example, suffers –2 dice on all tests instead.
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Oh sorry, I meant: Where's the rule that says you don't suffer electricity effects unless you suffer damage? I know there's such a rule in D&D3, but I hadn't seen anything like it in SR.
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I haven't seen an explicit rule regarding the elemental effects. However, there are explicit rules regarding contact style effects, such as toxins and fire elemental effects. For toxin effects, complete protection (chem suit and armor with sealing) is provided even with an injector style attack. If completely soaked, the injection toxin has no effect because it never breached the defense of the target.
Similar effects come from the fire resistance armor addon. Fire effects have a chance to ignite the target, unless the target is incombustible. This can be achieved with appropriate gear (fire resistant or retardant gear). If a fire attack is resisted, then the target does not ignite.
Both of these attacks are contact style attacks (fire doesn't have any "force" to it, per se, it just needs to get on you). Complete or near complete isolation provides protection. While there is no explicit rule stating this, electrical attacks that fail to breach the protection of a suit outfitted with resistance should be ignored for the disorientation effects.
However, this means that the armor has to resist all the electrical damage. If even a single point gets through, I would say there may be a chance of the disorientation effect. Of course, individual GM's may not be that nit-picky, and simply count the fact that electrical resistance was there as the opportunity to resist the effect. Note that this isn't spelled out in the book, but is an interpretation of the rules. As such, expect arguments regarding this.
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Oh sorry, I meant: Where's the rule that says you don't suffer electricity effects unless you suffer damage? I know there's such a rule in D&D3, but I hadn't seen anything like it in SR.
Interpret how you will, I can see both ways:
A successful Electricity damage attack can stun and incapacitate the target as well. The struck target must make a Body + Willpower (3) Test. Apply half the character's Impact armor (round down) and any other dice pool modifiers as noted above to this test. If the target fails, he immediately falls and is incapacitated for a number of Combat Turns equal to 2 + net hits scored on the attack test. Even if the target succeeds, he suffers a -2 dice pool modifier to all action tests due to disorientation from the shock for the same period.
Emphasis mine.
Yes, it uses the word damage, however, it could as easily be using the term "electricity damage" because that's (1) the section title and (2) the official term for referencing the type of attack. Is success the application of damage, or the act of hitting? Due to the way the term "electricity damage" is used throughout the book, I wouldn't try to tell you which is the intent.
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Which is why it's a bit up in the air. An errata or official ruling on such would quiet things down, but such things are only "official" rules anyway. Many will use it however they want.
Which is just fine.
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I haven't seen an explicit rule regarding the elemental effects. However, there are explicit rules regarding contact style effects, such as toxins and fire elemental effects. For toxin effects, complete protection (chem suit and armor with sealing) is provided even with an injector style attack. If completely soaked, the injection toxin has no effect because it never breached the defense of the target.
Depends on the toxin. Gas is blocked by a gas mask and/or sealed suit for contact versions. The Super Squirt is blocked only by a fully sealed suit and the dart guns do no damage, per se. They inject toxins if the attacker gets two net hits on the Ranged Combat Opposed (ie dodge) test.
I would agree that SNS and most other things have to do at least 1S/1P in order to deliver their special effect, though.
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I haven't seen an explicit rule regarding the elemental effects. However, there are explicit rules regarding contact style effects, such as toxins and fire elemental effects. For toxin effects, complete protection (chem suit and armor with sealing) is provided even with an injector style attack. If completely soaked, the injection toxin has no effect because it never breached the defense of the target.
Depends on the toxin. Gas is blocked by a gas mask and/or sealed suit for contact versions. The Super Squirt is blocked only by a fully sealed suit and the dart guns do no damage, per se. They inject toxins if the attacker gets two net hits on the Ranged Combat Opposed (ie dodge) test.
I would agree that SNS and most other things have to do at least 1S/1P in order to deliver their special effect, though.
Not trying to disagree on SNS from a rules perspective, but I find it funny that the explicit point of a taser is supposed to be that it uses the skin effect to do no actual damage to the person, simply induce muscle convulsions. So an accurate representation of a RL modern taser would deal 0S(e) with no net hits applied to damage. It'd be purely the secondary effect. At least, if tasers worked as designed.
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Well, "designed to" and "do" are two different things. Its entirely possible to render someone unconscious or dead with a taser under the proper circumstances. I think its fair to say that someone getting zapped by one is going to be a little wobbly until they have a chance to rest a bit (ie stun damage).
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agreed, just something I find funny.