Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Desiani on <02-03-17/2224:26>
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Is there a big difference? One chart has a stay array while other has fixed stats. Does this mean you can't configure a specialty deck?
Also, which deck would fit better for a new AR focused Adept decker. A Sony CIY-720(core 345k $) with program slots 4 and a 7 6 5 4 array, the Xiao MPG-1(DT 64 302k $) with and array of 8 5 4 3 and 3 program slots?
Would those be better than the specialty deck Ares Echo Unlimited(DT 64 395k $)? It's spread is A9 S6 D4 F5, 3 program slots. Understand this will only be if I am limited to a Priority chargen. The other two will be considered for Lifestyle module chargen.
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Yes, a specialty deck cannot be configured. IMHO this is a very big flaw, because a fixed array means you cannot adapt to the situation.
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Well, AR vs VR doesn't really affect your deck. More important would be what do you plan on focusing on deck-wise. If you are going to hyper focus on something where you only need one really high attribute at a time, the Xiao might be better. Often times, though, you'll find yourself needing to have more than one, plus some programs to help you out. If you can manage the cost, the CIY-720 is the more versatile machine.
Specialized decks tend to have higher attributes overall, but you can't change them. So like Haywire said, it's a bit flawed, but that was part of the design. The Ares Echo will rip things up in Cybercombat, but it does lack some when it comes to standard matrix activity (lower Data Processing), still, if you plan on focusing on Cybercombat and Data Spiking your enemies, nothING really beats being able to have a base damage of like 12 by loading the right programs...
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While the inability to configure the deck is a solid downside, it's not as bad as it may sound. With cyberprograms, the Overclocker quality, and even cyberdeck modifications (in the long term) you can customize the deck's attributes a decent amount. With the first two, that's two floating +1's, while the modification can be used to even things out or make your highest attribute even higher.
While it's not the same flexibility as someone who could suddenly go from 8 Attack, 4 Firewall to 4 Attack, 8 Firewall, it's still comparable and goes a significant way of making up for the main drawbacks of specialty decks.
As for which is the better choice, it's really dependent on how much money you're willing to spend and what else is included in your build. If the sky's the limit, the Ares Echo Unlimited isn't bad at all. 4 in Data Processing will suffice for most actions, and everything is high enough that the floating +1's I mentioned can easily allow you to adapt. It's even easier if your GM lets you use smoke-and-mirrors that one totally broken cyberprogram that shouldn't exist.
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So with smoke and mirrors I can just arbitrarily add 5 sleaze to my deck, but also add the same amount of noise? Or is there something I'm missing from the description? Can't you just use noise scrubber to counteract that?
How do I get 2 free floating +1's? Is there a program I'm missing that adds another +1 other than overclocker?
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As written, the penalty Smoke-And-Mirrors gives is just normal noise, and thus if you run Signal Scrubber (2 NR), have a Datajack (1 NR) and hardwire a Vectored Signal Filter (2 NR) then you can completely ignore the penalty. Around when Data Trails was released I ranted about how to make a build that makes you completely untouchable on the matrix. It makes it almost impossible for anything but top-end machines to find you without the use of Edge (and if an NPC hacker uses Edge, you can just Hide repeatedly until they're out of Edge).
[spoiler]
Alright, here's my "win the matrix" build. First, start with the cheap "Data Anomaly" quality. Sprites are so uncommon, it's worth being automatically found-- Especially when it doesn't mean the TM can find you automatically.
Then we get a potent cyberdeck. The Shiawase Cyber-4 is ideal, but for a point less the Azteca 300 will be doable. Load Sneak and Smoke-And-Mirrors, and Signal Scrubber. Data Jack cyberwear of course, and throw in the Vectored Signal Filter (hardwired in). Mod your deck to boost your highest attribute array by 1, lowering something else (or taking the 2 perm damage). You now have a Sleaze of, that's right, 15. Combined with a maxed out LOG, potentially doing something like Restricted Gear (Cerebral Booster), and Exceptional Attribute (LOG) for 10 LOG.
With around 25 dice to resist Matrix Perception, no normal hacker will find you, and hosts of rating 10 or lower are likely to have difficulty-- 6 or below stands almost no chance.
You're actually so stealthy that you're better off using Attack actions, because WCS is they start making Matrix Perception tests and fail, where as a failed Sleaze would mean they mark you. You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.
You're not even that disadvantaged! You still have your second highest attribute available for Attack and your dice pools for Cybercombat and such aren't negatively affected. Aside from modding the deck for higher Sleaze, these are all things a decker could do by accident! Just logical stuff to be more effective.
I mean... Shit! That's 8 hits on average. Considering limits, you might actually be beyond most hardware's capability of spotting you.
[/spoiler]
I suppose I explained the +1s thing poorly. I mean that Overclocker can be combined with the programs that add +1 to a specific limit (Encryption = Firewall; Toolbox = Data Processing; Decryption = Attack; Stealth = Sleaze).
With Overclocker and one of those programs you can have +2 to any of your deck's attributes. Though that implies you can only run one of them at a time, which isn't the case (you can run all four if you have the slots for them). This provide a significant amount of customization, even without the ability to switch around the base attributes.
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[spoiler]
Alright, here's my "win the matrix" build. First, start with the cheap "Data Anomaly" quality. Sprites are so uncommon, it's worth being automatically found-- Especially when it doesn't mean the TM can find you automatically.
Then we get a potent cyberdeck. The Shiawase Cyber-4 is ideal, but for a point less the Azteca 300 will be doable. Load Sneak and Smoke-And-Mirrors, and Signal Scrubber. Data Jack cyberwear of course, and throw in the Vectored Signal Filter (hardwired in). Mod your deck to boost your highest attribute array by 1, lowering something else (or taking the 2 perm damage). You now have a Sleaze of, that's right, 15. Combined with a maxed out LOG, potentially doing something like Restricted Gear (Cerebral Booster), and Exceptional Attribute (LOG) for 10 LOG.
With around 25 dice to resist Matrix Perception, no normal hacker will find you, and hosts of rating 10 or lower are likely to have difficulty-- 6 or below stands almost no chance.
You're actually so stealthy that you're better off using Attack actions, because WCS is they start making Matrix Perception tests and fail, where as a failed Sleaze would mean they mark you. You could metaphorically burn a host to the ground and laugh in the flames while the spider and all the IC flail around unable to spot you.
You're not even that disadvantaged! You still have your second highest attribute available for Attack and your dice pools for Cybercombat and such aren't negatively affected. Aside from modding the deck for higher Sleaze, these are all things a decker could do by accident! Just logical stuff to be more effective.
I mean... Shit! That's 8 hits on average. Considering limits, you might actually be beyond most hardware's capability of spotting you.
[/spoiler]
While Absolutely hilarious, especially when combo'd with Ninja Vanish or Fade to Black, what is the gain from using Brute Force over Hack on the Fly? I've thought about going the Brute Force route on Decker builds but it doesn't offer anything more than what Hack on the Fly does. If you're entering a Host you're likely going to be there for 10+ combat turns. Eventually the Spider will just Erase Mark and call it a day and boot you off his host. Three action passes a turn, base time 1 minute to find what you're looking for in a Host typically.... that is a lot of rolls for the Spider to find your Mark on the Host and Erase it.
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I've thought the same. I already have a Sleazy Techno on my team so I was going to go brute force as a gnome or a dryad adept for the giggles that specialised in bricking guns and fucking around with the local AR-scape in an effort to join the Electric Knights. That or a zealot who Followed Deus :D
The more I look at the two, brute force seems inherently worse since most times you're just wanting to mark quietly :/
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Brute Force, being an Attack action, means that success alerts the target, while a failure causes you minor damage. The first doesn't matter to this build; they can make as many rolls as they want, they won't be able to find you. The second can be an issue, but it manageable and doesn't immediately screw you over.
Sleaze actions like Hack on the Fly don't alert the target if you succeed, but a failure immediately puts a mark on you-- Meaning they don't need to roll Matrix Perception to find you anymore.
That's what the build is about. The Spider, all the IC, none of them can target you with any matrix actions unless they spot you via Matrix Perception (because you're Running Silent). But your dice pool to resist is so massive that many have almost no chance of beating you, and some (anything with a limit of 6 or below) will almost never find you because of their limit. And I'm not exaggerating. I just made a build who rolls 28 dice for resisting Matrix Perception-- That's 9 hits. If their Limit is below that, on average they are mechanically incapable of finding you. If it's a limit of 6, then you would have to roll only 5 hits on 28 dice, and they would also have to roll their max of 6. And that's only looking at the limits; pure dice-pool comparison, even a R8 Host wil only roll 16 dice to spot you That's 12 dice less than the character I just built..
They can't boot you off the host-- They'd have to be able to target you first.
If you're there to run matrix overwatch while your team infiltrates a facility, you can just go about completely screwing any employees who may be slaved to the host, and any devices slaved to the host are yours. If you were using Hack on the Fly, they'd still find out there was a hacker and be looking for you just the same once you start interfering with their stuff properly. Except if you botch a roll on Hack on the Fly, the host (and thus all the IC) instantly get a mark on you, spotting you. If you botch an Attack action, you just take some damage, and they still have to sit there hoping for astronomic odds to be able to spot you.
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Oh. So you can still focus on being super duper Brute force focus, you'll just be the big man punching down doors and no one can physically see you?
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My Broken Win-The-Matrix Build You Shouldn't Play (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=25816.0)
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That's what the build is about. The Spider, all the IC, none of them can target you with any matrix actions unless they spot you via Matrix Perception
Erase Mark doesn't need to have a Mark or have made a successful Matrix perception check against whatever Icon placed the Mark. Hacker makes a Brute Force vs Host (or Device in Host's WAN, whatever), Hacker gets Mark, Spider gets alerted. Spider knows someone just performed a successful attack action against his Host (or Device connected to the Host...), checks his (or her) Host for your Mark and performs the "Erase Mark" action. Hacker is in the Host for a couple actions at most. Sure the IC never find the Hacker, but the Hacker won't be in the host long enough to accomplish much.
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You don't go poof out of a host if your mark to the host is removed, you know. Why would they need IC if that's all it took? Yes, you alert them, then the rigger checks for a mark, and then it's your turn again and you enter the host. Bam. No problems. The rigger cannot make the test to look for marks and roll to erase the mark in the same action; that leaves you time to enter unless you're doing some AR hacking an rolled 10 or lower for your initiative.
Once in the host, they don't automatically know what icons you have marks on. Even with Hack on the Fly, nothing stops the spider from going "Oh shit, someone's locked the elevator at the roof!" or "Oh no, someone's hacking all our security drones!" and then knowing which device to roll Matrix Perception on so they can begin erasing the marks. If you're Running Silent, they can't tell what you're doing and would have to manually check each device for marks or use context clues (which they would be doing if you used Hack on the Fly).
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Hacker Action One: Brute Force on host and gets Mark. Spider gets alerted.
Spider Action One: Matrix Perception on his own Host and gets a count of Marks. That one Mark there that the Spider Doesn't recognize and the Host doesn't have a Mark on the Persona that left the Mark. That one Mark there is the one.
Hacker Action two +: Hacker Stuff
Spider Action two + : Erase Mark, which is resisted by the Hackers Firewall plus Willpower, not the Uber Sleaze pool you've built.
If you use Hack on the Fly to get your Mark you can hopefully get in and get out before the Spider becomes aware.
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I still don't see your point. It doesn't matter if your mark on the host is removed. You don't need a mark on the host to do anything else inside the host. The file you want to steal? You put a mark on that. The devices all slaved to the host? You put marks on those now that you have a direct connection to them. The spider is regularly alerted that hacking is going on, but doesn't know what devices are getting marked unless he makes Matrix Perception tests on them specifically.
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My Broken Win-The-Matrix Build You Shouldn't Play (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=25816.0)
LOL why? Because it's broken and will kill my game? :p
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You need Marks to do anything useful. As soon as you Brute Force on an Icon that Icon's owner (the Spider in this case) knows about it. Spider uses Matrix Perception on it's turn to get a count of Marks on the Icon to identify the Hacker's Mark. Hacker gets one action and then the Spider starts to roll to Erase Mark. You're not getting much done typically with a single action. Possibly a few more if you win the Erase Mark tests of course.
If you're searching for something specific the Base time is 20 Turns, you cut it down to 4 or 5 with a decent Search, so the Spider (and IC) have 12+ checks to find you. With Teamwork that's going to start to look like a decent chance to get spotted. And once you find the Icon you need, you Brute Force again and the Spider finds your Mark on that Icon and starts trying to Erase Mark on that Icon. Potentially you've got one Matrix Action on your Target.
All in all it looks to me like you significantly ramp up your chance for failure by giving the Spider and IC bunches of chances to mess with you for no gain other than cuteness.
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Not all hosts have spiders monitoring them 24/7, mainly because IC is way cheaper. And as far as I know, IC can't remove marks. But yeah, it's a different story once the spider jacks into the Matrix. I can't seem to find any details on what happens when your marks are removed while inside a host. Odd, should be a very important aspect of hacking.
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You need Marks to do anything useful. As soon as you Brute Force on an Icon that Icon's owner (the Spider in this case) knows about it. Spider uses Matrix Perception on it's turn to get a count of Marks on the Icon to identify the Hacker's Mark. Hacker gets one action and then the Spider starts to roll to Erase Mark. You're not getting much done typically with a single action. Possibly a few more if you win the Erase Mark tests of course.
Actually you usually do get a lot done with a single action. And keep in mind that you can probably place marks faster than they can remove, which will come up if you're doing something you don't need 3 marks for.
If you're searching for something specific the Base time is 20 Turns, you cut it down to 4 or 5 with a decent Search, so the Spider (and IC) have 12+ checks to find you. With Teamwork that's going to start to look like a decent chance to get spotted. And once you find the Icon you need, you Brute Force again and the Spider finds your Mark on that Icon and starts trying to Erase Mark on that Icon. Potentially you've got one Matrix Action on your Target.
The spider and IC can't be both making that many checks and assisting eachother. It's likely they can't assist eachother in Matrix Perception anyways, as it isn't possible for someone to "point out" an icon in the matrix to someone else. Assuming you're on a R7 Host (which is pretty high for a fresh character), or the spider has both 6 Intuition and 6 Computer, and a Specialization in Matrix Perception, that's still 13 dice less than you-- AKA, you're rolling almost twice as many dice. 12 rolls is not enough to bridge that gap, especially when you're free to use Edge on the rare chance you roll 4 or less hits.
I'm also still not convinced the spider would be alerted to exactly what file is being attacked. Regardless though, as this concept requires 10 LOG, such a character could place marks on the file likely faster than the spider could remove them. And cracking or copying a file only needs 1 mark.
All in all it looks to me like you significantly ramp up your chance for failure by giving the Spider and IC bunches of chances to mess with you for no gain other than cuteness.
And I'd have to say you're definitely wrong about that. You may have pointed out how it's not an automatic win, but that hardly makes it somehow absolutely terrible. You're also only discussing one very specific scenario of hacking a file in a host (and ignoring everything else a host is used for) and missing one of the biggest parts of it.
YOU CAN DESTROY THE SPIDER.
I could plink him to death with Brute Force if I wanted to. He has no way of taking me out first; and none of the IC will find me. Now he's out of the picture, and I only have to bother with a lazy Patrol IC that won't be able to spot me. They have no way of removing marks anymore either. A normal build who takes out the spider still has the threat of IC trying to kill them.
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C'mon, any GM would pit your 20+ matrix stealth decker against a better-than-average-spider. You're not facing a Log 6/Int 6 spider.
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I can't seem to find any details on what happens when your marks are removed while inside a host. Odd, should be a very important aspect of hacking.
Nothing. You're already in. But to do anything meaningful you've got to remark.
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I'm also still not convinced the spider would be alerted to exactly what file is being attacked.
The target Icon reports to it's owner that it's under attack. Spider should know what Icon you're attacking.
p. 236 - Bold by me
If you succeed with an Attack action, your target
becomes aware that it is under attack by another icon,
but it doesn’t automatically spot you. It will most likely
actively search for you on its next action, although it
will almost always alert its owner to the attack and (if
it’s a host) launch IC, depending on the owner’s preferences and the gamemaster’s judgment.
And Hacking a Host isn't a niche thing, it's the most difficult thing a Hacker does. I'm not saying it's unworkable, or bad, I'm saying you're adding an additional chance of failure that Sleaze hackers don't have.
You can have a Hack on the Fly pool equal to your Brute Force roll and you'd still be undetectable by anything sane. Failed Sleaze rolls are bad, but not instantly fatal. Most of the time anyway ;D
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Yeah,
getting a MARK is just a matter of reboot and/or remove MARK. Failing a brute force damages your deck permanently (at least for the duration of the mission).
Just get the Fade To Black quality and you can hide with the same action as the one you use to erase the MARK.
With stats as high as these you can keep the game up almost indefinitely
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You're not discussing just basic hacking a host, you're discussing a host-focused datasteal, based around Matrix Search and copying files. Which doesn't make sense anyways, because Crack File is an Attack action and so there's no way to do it other than alerting the spider to which file you're removing protection from! All the things you mentioned about the spider just immediately knowing you attacked a file apply to literally anyone. What's to stop a spider from just going "You removed the protection, I put it back on, you removed it, I put it back on, you removed it, I put it back on." If your answer would be "They're not marked as the Owner, and so can't put the protection back on it", then I'd like to point out that they wouldn't be alerted to attack actions against it either, then.
Once you take out the spider (don't ignore this), you don't need to worry about your marks being removed. And if you fail a Sleaze action and get marked, that gives all the launched IC a turn to attack you. I still think it would be better to just blow the spider away, then risk a few points of damage on a failure over all the IC swinging at you. If the launched IC includes a Probe IC, then even one turn of them attacking you could mean failure. Even if you didn't alert everyone with Attack actions, a failed Sleaze action alerts them too, so if you failed again you're get swarmed, where you can afford more than one or two failures with Attack actions unless you somehow absolutely botch the roll and take 4 boxes at once (in which case, you could also have just botched the Erase Mark or Hide roll and then get overrun).
Also, Adamo, even a Lesser Demigod (Professional Rating 5) only has a pool of 13 (Electronics Group 8, 5 INT). So trust me, what I said is not an average spider. Even a Professional Rating 6 Greater Demigod, who has the Electronics group at 11 and 6 INT is still 10 dice below you. They won't be totally unable to spot you ever, but unless they send Fastjack or Slamm-O! after you, you'll have an advantage. Against any opponent who a fresh runner would actually be facing, it's a joke.
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You're not discussing just basic hacking a host, you're discussing a host-focused datasteal, based around Matrix Search and copying files. Which doesn't make sense anyways, because Crack File is an Attack action and so there's no way to do it other than alerting the spider to which file you're removing protection from! All the things you mentioned about the spider just immediately knowing you attacked a file apply to literally anyone. What's to stop a spider from just going "You removed the protection, I put it back on, you removed it, I put it back on, you removed it, I put it back on." If your answer would be "They're not marked as the Owner, and so can't put the protection back on it", then I'd like to point out that they wouldn't be alerted to attack actions against it either, then.
Crack File is an Attack action, so yes, the Spider could put the File Protection back on the Icon as a reaction. However the RAW is that the Spider only knows a successful Attack action targeted that Icon. Could be Brute Force, could be Data Spike, could be Crack File, or whatever. The Spider really should have to spend an action using Matrix Perception to figure it out. But yes, a Dick GM can stop all Matrix Data Steals forever. They could do that anyway, they're the GM.
And if the Spider isn't considered the owner of every Icon in the Host I think the Matrix breaks in a fundamental way. That's wandering towards hand-waiving territory that the Matrix rules rely on.
And if you're just taking a tour to check out the host Architecture, fine, but if you actually want to do something you typically need to find the Icon associated with that thing. Be it a Data Steal, Elevator Controls, or whatever. Unless you're conveniently using Direct Access on the thing you want to Hack anyway (which happens a lot) you still need to do a Search to find the Icon to do a thing. If you need to find multiple Icon's to do things you're spending a long time in that host. The more dice rolls you have to make the greater the chance of failure.
And if there is a Meat space component to your run you've just tripped the Alarm.
Once you take out the spider (don't ignore this), you don't need to worry about your marks being removed.
It's simple risk avoidance. If doing A always creates a risk, and doing B sometimes creates a risk, unless the risk created by B is catastrophic failure, you go with B. Starting a Hack with an Attack Action always alerts the Icon Owner once you get a Mark. Brute Force doesn't give you a better chance of getting a Mark than Hack on the Fly. If Brute Force had a greater chance than Hack on the Fly in getting that initial Mark it would be a different story.
The risk from a failed Sleaze action is that the Icon's owner responds with an immediate Data Spike that Bricks the Deck in a single shot. Which isn't really a big deal, one hour later you can try again. (Presuming the Decker has a Hardware skill and toolbox anyway....). As long as the Deck isn't Bricked, Re-boot (or Erase Mark, whatever), and try again.
Absolutely you can take out the Spider. The Samurai can gun down the rent-a-cops on site too. But starting the Run with "Roll initiative" is usually a terrible idea.
Again. Hilarious concept. I've thought about making similar concepts, it just boils down to Brute Force requires another skill to be maxed (Cyber Combat) and another Matrix Attribute (Attack) that Sleaze focused Hackers don't have to invest as much in. And it doesn't increase your overall chance of Success. (arguably Hack on the Fly could have a higher limit so would have a greater chance of success overall, but....) And actual play would take forever since you immediately drop into initiative passes, but as you mention, don't play this build 'cause it's a dick move.
The real key to the build is the silly high levels of dice to oppose Matrix Perception, and that benefits a Sleaze based approach just as much.
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Absolutely you can take out the Spider. The Samurai can gun down the rent-a-cops on site too.
The difference is that rent-a-cops take time to reinforce, while a spider you forcefully eject from a host can be replaced and reinforced from anywhere around the world at the speed of logging in.
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Well, at the speed the spider calling his employers, telling them what happened, then them calling another spider, who (assuming they aren't busy doing something else) needs at least a minute to get ready, and then logs in.
And then you can just take them out again if you need to. What is it with this backlash? Do all of you think cybercombat is worthless outside of decker fights on the grid? Do you really think the only way to accomplish things in a host is Hack on the Fly?
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Agreed that a back up Spider showing up in the handful of seconds a typical hack takes is unlikely. If there were multiple Security Spiders available I'd expect all of them to show up rather quickly instead of taking a number. *shrug*
I really disagree with putting forward the idea that using Brute Force instead of Hack on the Fly is a good plan. There may be some odd-ball situations where it's better, but overall, it's a bad idea, especially when hacking a Host.
IMO alerting a Host is a very bad thing. For numerous reasons. (Meat space Alarms, Notoriety/Public Awareness, Slows down play, dramatically increases the number of opposed checks needed...) There should be significant upside to justify using Brute Force to get marks other than "I'm invincible (or Invisible, or whatever)".