Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: White Ronin on <08-24-13/0114:47>
-
Whoa... am I having a serious failure to comprehend (I hope)...
Muscle replacement, toner, and augmentation all say they're incompatible with augmentations that enhance STR and/or AGI. Wired flexes are incompatible with anything that raises REA (other than reaction enhancers... as long as you bend over and accept the Wireless stick). Does this mean that pretty much any cyberjock is going to be unable to use a suprathyroid because it'll conflict with everything?
Hoping I've just failed to understand.
-
Nope, that sure is how it reads.
-
Don't forget Synaptic Boosters, it also clashes with those.
It's how it reads, though frankly the descriptions read kinda copy-paste to me, so I submitted a question to the FAQ to be sure they intended for the Suprathyroid Gland to not be stackable with Synaptic Boosters. Completely didn't realize it also clashes with everything else, which means that, if intended, despite its serious pricetag it's utterly worthless.
-
incompatible does not mean you can't install both at the same time.
it just mean you don't get the incompatible benefits from both wares.
For example, Suprathyroid gland is the only cyber or bodyware that increase body attribute.
You still get the body attribute bonus even if you also have synaptic booster, muscle augmentation and muscle toner.
-
Would you consider +1 Body worth 0.7 essence, 140k + extra lifestyle costs?
-
Would you consider +1 Body worth 0.7 essence, 140k + extra lifestyle costs?
No (unless maybe if you are very starved at attribute points but still have essence and resources to burn), but i would for sure consider it if I didn't also had invested into muscle augmentation and muscle toner (or muscle replacement). Even if i already had improved reflexes or synaptic boosters.
Too bad it is off limits at chargen...
-
And that is why not stacking with the bioware augmentations is definitely broken. At that cost and availability, which incidentally makes it impossible to get in Missions unless you get it Used, it sounds extremely fair that it would stack.
Agi+Str of Cyber vs Bio is 40% essence, 252% nuyen. Reaction Enhancers at 50% essence would then be valued at anything inbetween 200% and 300% nuyen, let's assume the worst case. That puts the +1 Rea at 39k and 0.15 essence. +1 Agi and +1 Str is worth 63k and 0.4 essence. That leaves 38k nuyen, 0.15 essence and +25% lifestyle for the +1 Body.
-
Indeed, as written, Suprathyroid gland is utterly useless, and far, far too expensive. If that was as intended, and not simply an oversight, then the person who wrote that section needs phonebooking.
-
I'd consider it an oversight and houserule it myself as compatible with other Bioware even when they state "no other". We don't have to worry about an official ruling with Missions, since to get it with a 5/4 contact would cost 350k normal and 157.5k used, the latter of which would cost you all of Season 5 while living on the Street.
-
I have a similar concern about the Adrenaline Pump, which boosts Strength, Agility and Reaction (and Willpower). RAW that's incompatible with Muscle Toner, Muscle Augmentation, Wired Reflexes, Synaptic Booster & Reaction Enhancers.
The exception appears to be Muscle Replacement, which could generously be read as compatible with Adrenaline Pump and Superthyroid Gland because it says "it cannot be combined with other augmentations to the muscles
" my emphasis.
And yet Adrenaline Pump and Superthyroid Gland make no mention of being incompatible with anything. Including each other.
There appear to be three or more different restrictions on combining things here. Some to everything (magic included), some to Augmentations and some to certain types of Augmentations.
It seems sensible to rule that Adrenaline Pump and Superthyroid Gland stack with everything, because they have no restrictions in their description and they are gland / chemical based, not actual replacement / enhancement of the thing you're trying to effect. I could see an argument not to stack with cyber because it isn't really natural, but not bioware. I presume the augmented maximum would still apply, so it's not like you could be a human with Agility 6 (Muscle Toner R3 - 9), Adrenaline Pump R4 to boost to 13. (yikes the crash on that is going to hurt)
-
Augmented Maximum always applies except to Cyberlimbs and Wireless Wired Reflexes + Reaction Enhancers.
-
if one augmentation state that it is incompatible but the other does not - then they are both incompatible with each other. note that incompatible does not mean you can't get both at the same time; just that you need to select which bonus you want to use at what time.
-
I'd use them as using the best of the two myself. E.g. RE3+SB1 would be +3 Rea, +1d6 Initiative.
-
As to adrenaline pump, the bonuses aren't the reason to have that thing. The reason to have that thing is it'll keep you fighting at top capacity when you should have already gone for a nap on the floor - an important thing when the floor happens to be in an MCT zero zone, or an Aztechnology installation.
-
As to adrenaline pump, the bonuses aren't the reason to have that thing. The reason to have that thing is it'll keep you fighting at top capacity when you should have already gone for a nap on the floor - an important thing when the floor happens to be in an MCT zero zone, or an Aztechnology installation.
Though you can't start with it, a Pain Editor is cheaper and much less essence for that effect, save that it also changes your stats a bit and doesn't have a time limit measured in seconds.
-
Anyone tried to put together a cross-reference matrix of what magic/power/bioware/cyberware that do stack with what
- and what it is incompatible with?
the adept power improved reflexes for example seem to be incompatible with augmentations/enhancements to initiative (and according to p.159 initiative is based on three factors, initiative attribute, initiative score and initiative dice), but it does not mention reaction augmentations/enhancements - so it seem as if you can stack improved reaction attribute with improved reactions physical attribute power for the purpose of calculating your reaction pool for pilot skills and defense rolls during combat etc, but not when you use reaction to calculate your initiative attribute as initiative attribute is one of the three parts of initiative.
-
Keep in mind two things:
1: If one side is incompatible, both are.
2: It can be argued that augmentations mean Initiative Attribute or Initiative Dice. It's not perfectly clear how Reaction boosts and Initiative boosts combine.
Honestly, I think it's better to wait for some things to be cleared up through errata/FAQ before we get into the heavy debates.
-
i made a thread :)
for now i just copy pasta text that make them incompatible. adding some of my own thoughts and reflections in the second post. 3rd will be a matrix or a table with everything, but i wait with that until i can get some input.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12756.0
The definition of Initiative is pretty straight forward. You find it on p.159 under the chapter called "Initiative"
"Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice."
So anything that affect initiative attribute, initiative score or initiative dice also affect initiative. or reverse; something that is incompatible with enhancements to initiative is also incompatible with enhancements to initiative attribute, initiative score and initiative dice.
-
What Initiative is is straight forward, yes. There is however a debate on which of the four different terms are meant when Augmentations talk about being incompatible with other boosts to Initiative, and whether boosts to your Attributes are incompatible with boosts directly to Initiative. You are fully aware of these debates and how often things were written badly, so please don't pretend otherwise. It is one thing to have a clear opinion, it is an entirely different thing to pretend there is no such controversion.
-
the term Initiative is well defined as being all three factors of Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice. That part is not really something that can be debated, is it...? (well, everything can be debated i guess - but at least that part is very straight forward and very hard to read in any other way).
that single line of text make it rather hard to argue that for example an enhancement to initiative score would be compatible with an enhancement that is incompatible with enhancements to initiative.
it also make it very hard to argue that an enhancement to intuition which is part of the initiative attribute would be compatible with an enhancement that is incompatible with enhancements to initiative (for the sole purpose of calculating the initiative attribute - it is of course still compatible with an enhancement to intuition for the purpose of calculating the pool for a defense test or whatever that does not have anything to do with the initiative attribute, initiative score or the initiative dice).
just because two enhancements are incompatible does not mean you can't acquire them both. incompatible just mean you have to select when and where you want to use one or the other enhancement.
...for example having wired reflexes 1 and improved intuition spell would be incompatible for the purpose of calculating initiative attribute which is part of initiative, but would be compatible when using intuition for calculating the pool for a defense test. being in astral projection would possible give you on average a higher initiative score if you depend on the intuition spell enhancement rather than on the wired reflex enhancement (since the reaction attribute part of wired reflexes is not used to calculate initiative attribute when in astral space and the intuition attribute is counted twice when you calculate initiative attribute when in astral space - which might overshadow the extra initiative dice you would get from wired reflexes).
...while an enhancement to reaction would be incompatible with wired reflexes for all purposes, not just for calculating the initiative attribute (except if the enhancement to reaction is the reaction enhancer cyberware and they are both set to wireless ON).
-
There was a debate on this elsewhere. You'll want to actually hold this debate there, or in its own topic.
My point was simple: There are several controversial parts of the rules, partially caused by artefacts and partially by poor phrasing. Before we get into massive analysis, it's better to actually await the errata and FAQ. THEN we can start debating with proper facts.
If you think the debates shouldn't wait, that's fine. But the least you could do is acknowledge my request and my clear intent to not cause a heavy debate, rather than ignoring the request and starting a debate in the wrong place.
-
I want a debate ;)
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12756.0
-
So, I was making an Augmentation wishlist the other day, and have read through this thread thoroughly. The other thread pertains to SR5, however...is the debate here focused on SR5 as well(which I don;t have yet), or SR4? It should be noted that I'm interested in finding out about compatibility of the Superthyroid and/or Synaptic Booster in SR4 with other enhancements, and I thought that was what most of the debate here was.
-
i personally talked from a SR5 perspective. The link in the post above yours is about SR5 as well...