[Bushw4cker]

Does Increased Reflexes and/or Combat Sense work in Astral Space?

[Michael Chandra]

Technically, Initiative, Astral Initiative and Matrix Initiative are 3 separate entities and your Initiative modifiers would then not work on the other two. So with that difference explicitly made in tables, it sounds like a set of Wired Reflexes won't make a Decker faster, and the Increase/Improved Reflexes spell/power sound like they won't help astrally.

Combat Sense could work on any surprise tests in the astral, but Astral attacks are not Ranged/Melee Attacks so sounds like Combat Sense would give no bonus there.

[Lormyr]

Only mana spells work in astral. So combat sense yes, increase reflexes no. From the CRB under the astral combat section:

"There are no ranged weapons that function in astral space, so unarmed attacks, active weapon foci, and mana spells are the only options for astral combat.".

Even though the skill used is astral combat in place of the normal weapon skill, unarmed attacks and weapon foci attacks are still very much a melee attack. Combat sense would work just fine.

[Cabral]

Technically, Initiative, Astral Initiative and Matrix Initiative are 3 separate entities and your Initiative modifiers would then not work on the other two. So with that difference explicitly made in tables, it sounds like a set of Wired Reflexes won't make a Decker faster, and the Increase/Improved Reflexes spell/power sound like they won't help astrally.

The initiatives types are broken down into types on page 159. The table lists 6 types (with no mention of VR Rigging), but the paragraph breaks it down into 4 types: Physical, Astral, Matrix, and Rigging. By your logic, you'll need separate initiative modifiers for physical combat and AR Rigging and AR Matrix hacking which is explicitly not the case as described in the augment reality user mode on page 229.

Additionally, the increase reflexes spell does not specify an initiative type. Wired reflexes and the adept power also do not specify an initiative type. It's left to the reader to infer under which scenarios which dice apply. I thought that the astral world section would specify restrictions, but it only implies them in the form of replacement attributes on page 314.

You have EARS (sp?) from a recent book that lets you use your Matrix VR initiative for physical actions (with penalties and there may be restrictions). When you have a dual natured entity (such as an astrally perceiving character) fighting on the astral, the character will be using physical initiative against astral foes using astral initiative. Control rigs don't help with initiative anymore?

Finally, the cold sim VR user mode description (page 229) reiterates the +5D6 initiative limit when describing that it gives +3D6 initiative, implying that there is another source of applicable initiative modifiers. I cannot think of any other than augmentations and magic, but maybe I am overlooking something.

Only mana spells work in astral. So combat sense yes, increase reflexes no. From the CRB under the astral combat section:

"There are no ranged weapons that function in astral space, so unarmed attacks, active weapon foci, and mana spells are the only options for astral combat.".

Even though the skill used is astral combat in place of the normal weapon skill, unarmed attacks and weapon foci attacks are still very much a melee attack. Combat sense would work just fine.

A reference not limited to combat spells would be:

Only mana-based spells work in astral space, even if you're in the physical world astrally perceiving the target.

As an aside, I can't recall anywhere that it specifies whether Adept Powers are "physical" or "mana," but I also can't think of a scenario where an adept/mystic adept would be in astrally projecting in astral space. There is the astral gateway, but if I recall correctly, that only takes you to the metaplanes. Do astral initiative rules apply to the Metaplanes?

[Michael Chandra]

Page 100 explicitly goes 'you have Initiative, Matrix Initiative for hotsim/coldsim, Astral Initiative for astral space'. My logic functions under those paragraphs, where 'Initiative' explicitly stands for that first form. So I disagree with any 'your logic' statements that are not founded on that page's words or my own.

Furthermore, there have been restricted ways to further increase Matrix Initiative in extended books, which is why the rules need to explicitly state it's still restricted. One option is in Kill Code: TMs can take an Immersion for it. So I disagree with the arguments that Astral Initiative would have all the same modifiers as normal Initiative, or Matrix Initiative for that matter. There wouldn't be an expensive Immersion if drugs were all you needed.

[Cabral]

Page 100 explicitly goes 'you have Initiative, Matrix Initiative for hotsim/coldsim, Astral Initiative for astral space'. My logic functions under those paragraphs, where 'Initiative' explicitly stands for that first form. So I disagree with any 'your logic' statements that are not founded on that page's words or my own.

Mostly conceded. I tried to find that break down in the primary sections on initiative and the matrix and astral sections. Why is it only at the end of character creation? For the record, in the Shadowrun Concepts section, page 52, initiative and initiative dice are defined separately. In that section, that defines the concepts, it is initiative dice that vary by situation. In later sections, initiative seems to be handled as the initiative plus initiative dice that are used to determine the score in each scenario, as a sort of short hand. As such, initiative is inherently generic and all encompassing, but the intent should be clear enough.

The point about the bonuses of various initiative boosters being untyped still stands.

Furthermore, there have been restricted ways to further increase Matrix Initiative in extended books, which is why the rules need to explicitly state it's still restricted. One option is in Kill Code: TMs can take an Immersion for it. So I disagree with the arguments that Astral Initiative would have all the same modifiers as normal Initiative, or Matrix Initiative for that matter. There wouldn't be an expensive Immersion if drugs were all you needed.

Technomancers only operate in AR or Hot Sim VR (p 251) and the echo, Predictive Analytics, only gives a bonus to AR (which seems broken or at least conceptually wrong). Reiterating the limit on initiative dice under cold sim doesn't apply to Technomancers. There may be a deck, program, circumstance, or even augmentation that explicitly affects your matrix dice that gives you an extra die in cold sim that would explain it, but otherwise, it's odd.

To be explicit, I would be surprised if any group allows augmentations or magic to modify cold sim VR.

[Lormyr]

Lormyr, what would you consider direct combat spells in astral space? I'm not sure if Combat Sense could apply to those, even if you allow it vs what you consider melee astral attacks.

I am not sure I understand your question. What would I consider them in relation to...?

I am unaware of any direct combat spell in which combat sense would apply. For defense against those you'd be looking for spell resistance.

For me, it is a simple matter of common sense. Making an unarmed attack in meat space is melee attack, just like swinging a fist/claw/tentacle is a melee attack in astral. Unarmed combat, weapon foci attacks, touch range mana spells, and some spirit powers (corrosive spit, elemental attack, engulf, noxious breath, paralyzing touch) are all still melee or ranged attacks.

[Cabral]

Lormyr, what would you consider direct combat spells in astral space? I'm not sure if Combat Sense could apply to those, even if you allow it vs what you consider melee astral attacks.

I am not sure I understand your question. What would I consider them in relation to...?

I am unaware of any direct combat spell in which combat sense would apply. For defense against those you'd be looking for spell resistance.

I wonder if he meant indirect spells which are resolved "kind of like shooting a gun"?

[Michael Chandra]

Lormyr, what would you consider direct combat spells in astral space? I'm not sure if Combat Sense could apply to those, even if you allow it vs what you consider melee astral attacks.

I am not sure I understand your question. What would I consider them in relation to...?

I am unaware of any direct combat spell in which combat sense would apply. For defense against those you'd be looking for spell resistance.

For me, it is a simple matter of common sense. Making an unarmed attack in meat space is melee attack, just like swinging a fist/claw/tentacle is a melee attack in astral. Unarmed combat, weapon foci attacks, touch range mana spells, and some spirit powers (corrosive spit, elemental attack, engulf, noxious breath, paralyzing touch) are all still melee or ranged attacks.

Realised I'm an idiot because if it's not ranged/melee to begin with (since it's Direct, not Indirect) obviously it still isn't in Astral. -,- So a silly question.

Elemental Attack, Engulf, etc are all physical though aren't they? So they wouldn't do anything in astral. You're restricted to unarmed, weapon foci and mana spells, right?

[Mirikon]

Have not read the thread. This is just my take.

Increased Reflexes or any other initiative booster would not affect Astral Initiative. However, a Dual-natured creature or an Astral Perceiving (not projecting) mage/adept could use their meat initiative to attack targets on the astral.

It is possible that someone could create an 'Increase Astral Reflexes' spell or adept power, which would give the benefit of Increased Reflexes while astral projecting. It would be a separate spell from Increased Reflexes, however.

Combat Sense adds to Reaction on Surprise tests and to defend against ranged or melee attacks. In other words, the spell is a temporary boost to the Reaction attribute in certain circumstances, obeying the normal rules for stacking attribute modifications. Reaction has no effect on the astral, unless dual-natured. So the spell would be useless on the astral except for a ghoul or astral perceiving mage, or similar threats.

A spell could be made that would be an Astral version of the spell, but it would be a separate spell from Combat Sense.

[Lormyr]

Elemental Attack, Engulf, etc are all physical though aren't they? So they wouldn't do anything in astral. You're restricted to unarmed, weapon foci and mana spells, right?

You're correct, none of those should function in a purely astral combat. Those examples were used to highlight the melee / ranged categorization.

Combat Sense adds to Reaction on Surprise tests and to defend against ranged or melee attacks. In other words, the spell is a temporary boost to the Reaction attribute in certain circumstances, obeying the normal rules for stacking attribute modifications. Reaction has no effect on the astral, unless dual-natured. So the spell would be useless on the astral except for a ghoul or astral perceiving mage, or similar threats.

I believe that position ignores half of the equation. A defense test is not just Reaction, but also Intuition. Furthermore, the spell does not add to Reaction at all, it adds to all defense tests - a combination of one's ability to perceive danger or an attack in time to avoid it.

[Marcus]

The conversion between Astral and physical combat is not direct. The change to replace Logic with Willpower which was clearly intended to make casters a little less MAD, also distorts the combat chart. Where Physical combat is Weapon Skill+Agi [Accuracy or P-limit] depend on weapon or unarmed vs Int+Rea, or if active Int+Rea+Related Skill. Astral is Astral Combat+Willpower [Foci Accuracy or astral Limit] (weapon foci or unarmed), vs Logic+Intuition. (Where a direct conversion would make Astral Combat+Logic [Accuracy, A-Limit] vs Int x2.)

A couple things about this, in astral space the stat conversion is Logic replaces agi, willpower replaces body,  and intuition replaces reaction (Hence Astral initiative is Int x2).

While Fanatics of RAW probably can make the argument it, not a defensive test in the strictest sense of the definition. But from RAI, it's clearly a defensive test and to me there is no reason combat sense shouldn't add to it.  Now there are things about astral combat that are complex and should be considered closely. The biggest issue being the speed at which astral combat moves.  Speed doesn't necessarily  determine combat out, but it can determine if combat happens.

So I agree with Lormyr.

[Mirikon]

Combat Sense adds to Reaction on Surprise tests and to defend against ranged or melee attacks. In other words, the spell is a temporary boost to the Reaction attribute in certain circumstances, obeying the normal rules for stacking attribute modifications. Reaction has no effect on the astral, unless dual-natured. So the spell would be useless on the astral except for a ghoul or astral perceiving mage, or similar threats.

I believe that position ignores half of the equation. A defense test is not just Reaction, but also Intuition. Furthermore, the spell does not add to Reaction at all, it adds to all defense tests - a combination of one's ability to perceive danger or an attack in time to avoid it.

Except it isn't boosting the defense test directly. To put it in Boolean: IF Surprise Test OR Ranged defense OR melee defense, THEN use Combat Sense + Reaction, ELSE use Reaction. Combat Sense is an increase to your Reaction, under explicit circumstances, not a boost to Defense Tests. This means it is limited by the same +4 cap as Increase Reaction, Wired Reflexes, Suprathyroid Gland, and so on, preventing you from placing Combat Sense on a wired-up dodgemonkey to make them unhittable with anything except AoE or indirect combat spells.

[PiXeL01]

I would read it as the dice bonus to defense tests is not tied to Reaction at all but a straight bonus to the defense pool.

[Lormyr]

Except it isn't boosting the defense test directly.

Combat Sense is an increase to your Reaction, under explicit circumstances, not a boost to Defense Tests.

This means it is limited by the same +4 cap as Increase Reaction, Wired Reflexes, Suprathyroid Gland, and so on

As I could not possibly interpret that from the spell as written under any circumstances, or disagree with your interpretation more, I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one.