Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lormyr on <05-25-20/1124:19>

Title: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Lormyr on <05-25-20/1124:19>
I invite you to go first sir! Obviously open to anyone else who wishes to discuss.
Title: Re: MagicRun: How to fix?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <05-25-20/1527:23>
Ok, so the post you made for reference:

Well, the devil's in the details.  Scenario two is indeed preferable as the less-bad option if the "fix" for Scenario one is no fix at all.  Or makes the situation worse.  And a topic like "how do you fix MagicRun" goes back to the beginning.  If it WAS an easy fix, wouldn't it have been fixed by now?

Sure, but the baffling part is why haven't they just balanced it? I think it easy an easy fix for any optimizer. Hell I could legitimately balance it appropriately, right now in 10 mins, with a single post. Speaking for SR5 on the core system from the CRB:

Magic Attribute
- Maximum rating at character creation is 4.
- Initiation increases the cap as normal, to an absolute maximum of 12.
- Maximum Initiation Grade is 8.

Resisting Magic
- Every full point of essence lost to ware adds one additional die to spell resistance pools. Does not stack with the magic resistance quality or the racial spell resistance of gnomes, fomorians, ect.

Mystic Adepts
- Must choose one of spellcasting, summoning, or enchanting, like an aspected mage. They may not use the other two skill groups or options.

Spells
- The maximum number of spells a spellcaster may know equals their magic attribute x2.
- Cost 10 karma each, rather than 5.

Spirits
- Do not gain hardened armor, instead gaining armor = to force.
- Completely remove aid sorcery, spell sustaining, and spell binding from bound spirit options.
- Cannot be oversummoned without metamagic.
- Spirits higher than Force 8 always get to simply choose to heed a summoner's call or ignore it, no rolls required.
- You can never have more than one spirit actively participating in combat. You can have more than one spirit engaged in non-combat tasks, however.

Metamagic
- New metamagic: each time it is taken summoner can summon spirits with a force one higher than their magic attribute. If you are already able to summon a spirit of Force 8, each instance of this metamagic instead allows you can add one additional power to said spirits.
- Quickening: the maximum number of spells that can be quickened on a single creature or object is equal to the highest magic attribute of any awakened characters who have quickened a spell on said creature or object.

Reagents
- Can only be used to ignore the force/maximum hits limit of spells that effect the caster his/herself, rather than ignore the limit on any spell.

Foci
- Have a maximum rating of 4.
- Only rating 1 and 2 foci can be crafted. Rating 3 and 4 are reserved for artifacts and/or other objects of historical importance.
- Cost quadruple the karma and nuyen listed.
- Ki foci totally reworked: 1 PP worth of powers per rating, costs equal to power foci.

That was easy, and it will work. Some people just might not like the specific changes, but that will always be the case.

Stuff I agree with you on:

Spirits are OP and need a beatdown with the nerf bat.
Spells are undercosted and should cost more karma.
Mystic Adepts are stupidly OP in 5e. (note this is a 5e specific problem... they are very much less problematic in 4e and 6e)
It's too easy to get dice pools big enough to trivialize drain.


Specific proposals that I don't necessarily agree are necessary/addressing the problem of MagicRun:
Nerfing max MAG values (inelegant rule and doesn't parallel any other preexisting mechanics)
Needing metamagic to unlock oversummoning (if drain is fixed, and spirits are nerfed, then oversummoning is fixed!)
Capping Initiate Grade (seems pointless. the problem isn't how many metamagic techniques you have, and a stupidly high Initiate grade without a correspondingly high MAG is just a laundry list of extra metamagics you know.  And if you have the karma to push your magic from 6 to 7 to 8 to even higher... bully for you.  It's 75 karma to go from 6 to 8 MAG, and that's not even including the initiation costs.  If you have that much karma and that's what you want to spend it on, I don't see a good reason to prevent it.)
Reagents: I don't really think in terms of 5e anymore, and talk about mechanics involving limits just don't matter to me as much anymore :D  Certainly not helping balance MagicRun in 6th, at any rate.

Things that I think are problems that your proposals didn't address:
Absence of a hard ceiling on how big a dice pool can be/how many bonus dice you can stack.
Related to above: Drain being too easy to fully soak.  Also, I'd like to see some number of boxes of automatic, unsoakable drain when you overcast/oversummon.
5e specific problem: Too much AP on high force spells.
Too many GMs allow too much information to be discerned from astral reconnaissance.
LOS range.  C'mon.
And let's have some cover penalties apply to (all) hostile spellcasting when all you can see is the tip of the target's pinky.
Alchemical Preparations are too hard for mundanes to employ.  It's fine that mundanes can't make them, but they ought to at least be able to fully employ them.
Too easy/fast to erase astral signatures.
Too much ambiguity with regards to subject, target, and cross-planar sorcery. (sustaining, and effects)  Details change by edition, but at least 5e and 6e have this in common: far too many specific "well what about"s are unanswerable.

Title: Re: MagicRun: How to fix?
Post by: Lormyr on <05-25-20/1611:54>
Nerfing max MAG values (inelegant rule and doesn't parallel any other preexisting mechanics)

Can you explain why you believe that unlimited dice pool potential isn't a problem? To me that is pretty much the text book definition of a major mechanical oversight. Additionally, I would argue the opposite - magic not having a cap doesn't parallel the pre-existing standard, as literally every other attribute, including edge and essence, does have a racial cap.

Needing metamagic to unlock oversummoning (if drain is fixed, and spirits are nerfed, then oversummoning is fixed!)

This is potentially true, if you nerf spirits even more than I did. Unlimited force 8 spirits (easy out of chargen in SR5) under the rules I outlined would still be problematically unbalanced. Edit: Unbalanced at chargen. Still strong, less of a major problem with advanced karma characters.

Capping Initiate Grade (seems pointless. the problem isn't how many metamagic techniques you have, and a stupidly high Initiate grade without a correspondingly high MAG is just a laundry list of extra metamagics you know.  And if you have the karma to push your magic from 6 to 7 to 8 to even higher... bully for you.  It's 75 karma to go from 6 to 8 MAG, and that's not even including the initiation costs.  If you have that much karma and that's what you want to spend it on, I don't see a good reason to prevent it.)

I agree that how many metamagics you have isn't necessarily an issue on a mage, but your Initiate Grade of 22 adding to your drain pool is. A max rating of 12, combined with the foci rating reduction, really turns drain pools down on the high end game.

Absence of a hard ceiling on how big a dice pool can be/how many bonus dice you can stack.

Which is exactly what the magic attribute and initiate grade maximums do.

Related to above: Drain being too easy to fully soak.  Also, I'd like to see some number of boxes of automatic, unsoakable drain when you overcast/oversummon.

A percentage of auto damage for overcasting isn't a bad call. I could be down for some formula for that.

LOS range.  C'mon.

Excellent call, I did totally overlook that. Agree needs changed.

Alchemical Preparations are too hard for mundanes to employ.  It's fine that mundanes can't make them, but they ought to at least be able to fully employ them.

Ugh, alchemy. It is so terrible that it really deserves a whole conversation dedicated specifically and only to that.

The range is a fantastic idea, but I believe that my outline pretty much handles everything else, specifically about creating a dice pool ceiling.
Title: Re: MagicRun: How to fix?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <05-25-20/1627:43>
Can you explain why you believe that unlimited dice pool potential isn't a problem?

Well little bit of miscommunication.  We agree it IS a problem.  We disagree on what's the best way to do something about it.

Rather than limiting how big each contributing bonus can be, I'd rather just limit how big the dice pool can be when it's all said and done.  6e (arguably) already does this, in a way, by capping the number of bonus dice one can count on a skill test.  Doesn't help for drain shenanigans, but saying something like "no dice pool can ever be more than X dice" would.


Between that and how exactly spirits get nerfed, most of the rest of the stuff could sort itself out.  (range and LOS excepted there, though...)
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Lormyr on <05-25-20/1639:36>
Got you, and that's fair. Like I said, folks may not agree with my personal fixes, but it would balance it out, especially in the low karma game where most folks likely play. I sincerely believe that the designers have to know it is not well balanced, and have chosen that is what they wish. I could be wrong of course, but all evidence points to the previous.

But I do agree that the dice pool potential is the primary culprit, even more so than unlimited summons for me. You and I could probably completely overhaul the entire system in a way we both felt good about and was more balanced, but my suggestions were made with an eye towards minimal overhaul.

For example, I could be good with an arbitrary dice pool cap for no other reason than "because game balance", but in order for me to be cool with that we would need a rule set that doesn't provide a substantial number of ways to overcome our arbitrary cap. Currently, for SR5 (I agree that SR6 is slightly better currently, but we'll see what splat books do to that), that would mean there is just a lot of dead weight dice pool enhancements from spells and adept powers to ware and drugs that are totally unnecessary and become just dead weight since you could just take x levels of one thing and be done. I might need to explain that one a little better, but I think you get what I mean?
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <05-25-20/1644:04>
Well, if there were a hypothetical dice pool cap, gear bonuses and whatnot would only be disincentivized if attribute and/or skill were already at superhuman levels.  A skill level of 4 is supposed to be a professional level of competence in something, and a 3 (2 in 6e!) is considered "average" for an attribute.  3/2 in your attribute + 4 skill dice is supposed to be "pretty decent, actually" rather than laughably bad.   Frankly you wouldn't NEED exceptional attribute/skill maxed out at superhuman levels if there were a max dice pool that you could then instead hit via bonuses from gear/other sources.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Lormyr on <05-25-20/1659:42>
Sure, that's also fair. Let's delve deeper into that. Setting aside our own personal preferences and playstyles, can you recall how many folks you've sat at a table with who's character didn't have the max racial/starting rating in the attribute and skill that governed their primary role? I have personally never seen it. Not once.

If I was to say there is intuitive optimization vs. min/maxer optimization would that distinction make sense to you? Like intuitive optimization would be a player who wants their character to shoot guns well, so makes an elf, and maxes agility and firearms. A Min/maxer optimizer would do the same, then pour over the books for every last little +1 nook and cranny they could find.

Pretty much all shadowrun players are intuitive optimizers from my experience. So if we go with your view, even the fairly casual character build will pretty much be out of growth potential out of chargen. I personally would rather situation where chargen doesn't allow you to completely max on either your organic number or gear maximum potential. That way you can come out swinging well, but still have good growth potential.

A SR5 example would be you can get 1 short of organic max on your attribute, go ahead with all 6 skill ranks since the cap is much higher, and possible options for attribute augmentation out of chargen was capped at +2.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: BeCareful on <05-25-20/1927:24>
If I might make a recommendation or two, I once saw a proposal to separate Initiate Grade with Metamagic. I think the idea was to put a cap on Initiate Grade (so Magic has a potential maximum, just like how Essence has a potential minimum), but they don't come with free Metamagic; those, you can get for 15 karma and a week of poking about in the metaplanes each.
Though it won't help much for the "1/Initiate Grade" metamagics, it'll give you some potential stuff out of chargen without the limitless potential Essence can't match (eventually after lots of investment).

Oh, also, I like the house rule where anyone can take Assensing, but if you don't have Magic, you can just use it to look at/subtly alter your own aura, or look at the aura of anyone or anything you're touching. You can already customize yourself in meatspace and on the Matrix, and this'll be a nice thing for mundanes. It might also let mundane disguise faces, given prep time/access to the aura of the target of their impersonation, not get instantly hard-countered by the first wagemage to show up.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Lormyr on <05-26-20/0947:47>
I'd be ok with that sort of system too, we'd just have to look at balancing the overall cost. I think a goal of keeping it simple would be best. Increasing Initiation cost overall is also not a bad idea.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Hobbes on <05-26-20/1927:00>
What, there was a Meta thread on Magicrun?  Those are my favorite!  Stupid Family holiday.  Stupid job I need to stay living indoors....

I agree with Lormyr that Magic (and Resonance) should have hard caps just like the other 9 Attributes.  Honestly combo that with a +4 Skill Cap and most dice pools have an effective cap.  For 6th Edition, Combat Sense would need a power specific limit.  Anything else that adds directly to a "Test" of some sort would need to be limited in scope and scale, but there aren't many of those anyway and a majority of them have only been +1 or +2 dice in previous editions.  Combat sense was the big one for 6th off the top of my head.

I don't know that Spirits need a nerf, but Spirit Powers do.  Most specifically Immunity to Normal Weapons, Innate Spell, Concealment and Movement.  Bring those down to sanity levels and I think Summoning starts to be more in line with Drone Riggers.  But those powers right there are "I Win" buttons in a lot of scenarios.  And personally I'd like to see more differentiation between the Spirit types than we've had in 5th and 6th.  Maybe less powers out of the gate and less overlap of optional powers so specializing in a specific type of Spirit, and Tradition choices actually locks a Summoner out of certain things. 

Otherwise, pretty much the obligatory +1 to what SSDR said. 

Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <05-26-20/2042:50>
I'd focus as much on boosting the mundane as nerfing magic. The 2080 street Sam pretty much feels the same as the 2050 street sam and that's a shame to me. Give cyber torsos glider packs, let full armor do physical mask, and linked to your cyber network allow it to change quickly, make smart gun links better. Make a lot of it cheaper. Finally I'd allow mundanes ways to get virtually unlimited advancement as well.  For karma expenditures they could by back essence lost while keeping the ware. Basically adapting so their bodies saw the cyber as a natural part of their bodies. 

While I wouldn't cap the magic attribute I'd have a absolute cap on what a dice pool could reach for mortals. So if someone wanted to get their magic to 100 that's fine but after their dice pool hit i don't know 30 it didn't help them there. If you ever increase the cap for prime runners or whatever, you increase the limits on augmented pools so mundanes can hit it easily as well.

Then I'd like increases to penalties to mixing cyber and magic, so mixing the two is at best a neutral power option for character and not a boost. Adept, cyber/adept, cyber should be equal options and if not I'd prefer cyber/adept be the worst option. A max pool would solve this on the end game, but wouldn't fix it on its own out of the gate,

This part goes to my disappointment with 6es action system. I wanted 1 major and multiple minors like it is, but the minors would be spent to up your actions. like instead of a edge action to remove penalties for multiple targets I'd prefer that was done through spending more minor actions. Like for a minor action spent, you can shoot one more time, and also for each additional one spent you can either remove the penalty for one of the shots or add another target. Multiple increases in called shots, disarms and a variety of other combat maneuvers up with minor action costs, many of which would defy human capabilities but with wired reflexes etc it is now possible.

Going in hand with this I'd of had spells cost a minimum of 1 major action but also potentially cost additional minor actions at their default to cast, sometimes a slow enough mage with a powerful enough spell would take multiple rounds to cast. So mana bolt might just be a major action, mana ball might be major+1 minor.  I think this worked pretty well in earthdawn, where some spells required 3 threads or more to tie to your matrix before they could be cast you could attempt to tie multiple threads in one action but it got really damn hard fast and sill at least took one action.  Similarly spells might cost minor actions to maintain concentration and spirits not on stand by might cost minor actions to keep active.

I'd of removed force from both spells and spirits. But, I wouldn't have had a Amp system which is just force in disguise. Spells and spirits would then be designed in line with mundane capabilities.  You want your fireball to hit harder, get a bigger dice pool like a mundane has to when he wants his ares predator to hit harder. Or buy a bigger spell like a mundane buys a bigger gun.

And the last thing I can think of off hand when it comes to dice boosting focuses, I'd have designed the cost as a discount on improving your magic. Like lets say spell focus 25%, power focus 50% cost. You want a force 1 power focus, we look at your current magic of 6, to go to 7 it would be 35 karma, a spell focus would cost 9, a power focus 18.(or 8/17 depending on rounding rules).  You naturally increase you magic, your focus is no longer bound to you until you pay the difference in cost between what it cost and what it would cost now.  A lot more math, but its not hard math and its balanced with what they do. 

I'd still keep things like background counts, but the point wouldn't be to balance the mage but to add thematic elements and extra challenges for the player to overcome.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: BeCareful on <05-27-20/0118:19>
One issue with Nice Things for Mundanes is that magicians can take them as well. As long as it doesn't cost Essence, anyone can try it! Even if it does, there may end up being some wacky burnout synergy with it.

As for Movement, was 6th copy&pasted from 5th? I'd heard 5th's was copy&pasted from 4, but not the bit about what the spirit's domain meant. Since none of my players could figure it out, the way I nerf it is by saying it means the spirit picks you up and carries you using it's movement. So, instead of flinging you at car speeds, or pushing your car so hard it makes a sonic boom, your spirit can do a makeshift Levitation, carry a body for you, or you can even ride your Beast Spirit into battle!

Plus, that way you don't have to worry about pursuit if they have a conjurer ending in guaranteed failure.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Michael Chandra on <05-27-20/0216:23>
Movement got copied from SR3 iirc in SR5. The Domain part is really vague yes. I only know one way for a spirit to truly make a domain, and it involves being a Free Spirit.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Lormyr on <05-27-20/0717:46>
Combat sense was the big one for 6th off the top of my head.

And foci, as wording presently stands.

I don't know that Spirits need a nerf, but Spirit Powers do.  Most specifically Immunity to Normal Weapons, Innate Spell, Concealment and Movement.

I agree that those powers are the primary problem in general, but only when speaking of sane level force spirits. But in our Missions group it was not uncommon to see PCs with spirits at force 12, or even 15-18 in some cases. Granted these were characters 500+ karma, but the fact that a mortal could even summon a creature of such stature I find silly. And when you start getting close to that double digit range of force, other powers start to become problematic too, like elemental attack.

Finally I'd allow mundanes ways to get virtually unlimited advancement as well.

I am in the other camp on this one. A big part of the reason I want to see Magic have a cap is because I don't believe anyone should have unlimited advancement in a single field. What I would rather see is after that mage with his 12 Magic, 8 Initiate Grade, 24 spells, and max spellcasting rank has become the best mage he can be, they now have to make a choice about what new field that want to branch into or master.

While I wouldn't cap the magic attribute I'd have a absolute cap on what a dice pool could reach for mortals. So if someone wanted to get their magic to 100 that's fine but after their dice pool hit i don't know 30 it didn't help them there.

Something like this could potentially work if maybe force was based on magic, but dice pool was not. I am confident a formula could be built to support it well, but I am also a fan of the simpler the better.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Hobbes on <05-27-20/1030:24>
Combat sense was the big one for 6th off the top of my head.

And foci, as wording presently stands.


Agreed.  But if the +4 cap to Skills is in, Foci are less problematic.  Still cheap though.

I don't know that Spirits need a nerf, but Spirit Powers do.  Most specifically Immunity to Normal Weapons, Innate Spell, Concealment and Movement.

I agree that those powers are the primary problem in general, but only when speaking of sane level force spirits. But in our Missions group it was not uncommon to see PCs with spirits at force 12, or even 15-18 in some cases. Granted these were characters 500+ karma, but the fact that a mortal could even summon a creature of such stature I find silly. And when you start getting close to that double digit range of force, other powers start to become problematic too, like elemental attack.

[/quote]

Cap Magic at 6.  7 With some flavor of Exceptional Attribute.  Skill cap from Foci at +4.  So Magic 7, Foci 4 gets you 11 dice.  Skill 6 plus Expertise, total of 20 dice summoning after a few runs?  Still potentially disruptive depending on the exact changes to powers.  But compared to a dedicated Drone Rigger that comes out of the gate with a dozen drones with automatic weapons?  I think they're in the same ballpark anyway.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-27-20/2255:19>
I think you guys are going about this the wrong way. I like the idea of uncapped progression. The idea that you can just keep sinking karma in to becoming something on par with an IE or Great Dragon.

However, what I'd like is HUGE narrative draw backs. Just like a Street Sam can become a Cyber Zombie (well...in 4e). But the thing to to unlock all that power requires you to give up your humanity and your willingness to live. That's so fragging cool.

I want that, but for magic.

The deeper you dive in to the metaplanes to unlock the secrets of magic, the less attached you are to the real world. You develop a Dr. Manhattan complex and you just exist beyond your peers and feel extremely detached from others. You start suffering social penalties, and your compassion for others becomes more and more removed and you become more of a hermit. Maybe you suffer stun damage every run showing you're not taking good care of yourself. Running starts to become a chore and distraction from consuming more magical knowledge. And at some point your compose checks fail (or whatever) and you project in to the metaplanes to never return.

With that said. No over summoning. That drek is broken.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Lormyr on <05-28-20/0857:30>
Agreed.  But if the +4 cap to Skills is in, Foci are less problematic.  Still cheap though.

Yeah, cheapness is still a serious issue.

Also, small nitpick, I feel like we should stop referring to the interpretation we prefer to as "+4 skill cap", because that wordings still feels like the skill version of attribute caps. A "+4 augmentation maximum to the non-attribute components of a total dice pool" or similar would be better.

I think you guys are going about this the wrong way. I like the idea of uncapped progression. The idea that you can just keep sinking karma in to becoming something on par with an IE or Great Dragon.

Well, folks in opposing camps on whether limited or unlimited progression is best will likely never see eye to eye on the matter because the core philosophy is in direct opposition. I prefer my god mages to be confined to only high fantasy settings myself.

Likewise, for me, narrative penalties are a terrible way to attempt to balance game mechanics. Enhancement to game mechanics, though? Sure.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Hobbes on <05-28-20/1029:42>
Agreed.  But if the +4 cap to Skills is in, Foci are less problematic.  Still cheap though.

Yeah, cheapness is still a serious issue.

Also, small nitpick, I feel like we should stop referring to the interpretation we prefer to as "+4 skill cap", because that wordings still feels like the skill version of attribute caps. A "+4 augmentation maximum to the non-attribute components of a total dice pool" or similar would be better.

I think you guys are going about this the wrong way. I like the idea of uncapped progression. The idea that you can just keep sinking karma in to becoming something on par with an IE or Great Dragon.

Well, folks in opposing camps on whether limited or unlimited progression is best will likely never see eye to eye on the matter because the core philosophy is in direct opposition. I prefer my god mages to be confined to only high fantasy settings myself.

Likewise, for me, narrative penalties are a terrible way to attempt to balance game mechanics. Enhancement to game mechanics, though? Sure.

I'll defer to SSDR's vocabulary choice then on the cap.  ; )

As far as Limited or Unlimited Advancement goes, I'm good with either.  But it needs to be equal access, can't just be Awakened characters that have unlimited dice pools.  That would require some totally new to the franchise advancement options for Mundanes, which I felt to be out of scope for the conversation.   
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <05-28-20/1039:40>
Let's leave the question of augmented limit for skills for other avenues.  Plenty of them out there already :D


Back to the top of ending magic stuff:


I miss how you could just flat out attack the astral forms of things like spells and foci with astral combat/mana combat spells in prior editions.  Frankly, I'm not totally convinced you CAN'T end a sustained Increased Reflexes or break a Power Focus by nuking it with a manabolt anymore.  But yes, it sure looks like you're "supposed" to end spells/enchantments via dispelling and disjoining in more recent editions. 

Even if grounding is (justifiably) retired, it'd give MagicRun players something to think about if any and every passing spirit or mage has the ability from astral space to just thump an active focus or sustained/quickened spell just for the lulz of it.  Also, might think twice about spending all sorts of nuyen and karma for a big focus if you can lose it at any time with basically no warning.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Banshee on <05-28-20/1052:01>
Let's leave the question of augmented limit for skills for other avenues.  Plenty of them out there already :D


Back to the top of ending magic stuff:


I miss how you could just flat out attack the astral forms of things like spells and foci with astral combat/mana combat spells in prior editions.  Frankly, I'm not totally convinced you CAN'T anymore in more recent editions.  But yes, it sure looks like you're "supposed" to end spells/enchantments via dispelling and disjoining. 

Even if grounding is (justifiably) retired, it'd give MagicRun players something to think about if any and every passing spirit or mage has the ability from astral space to just thump an active focus or sustained/quickened spell just for the lulz of it.  Also, might think twice about spending all sorts of nuyen and karma for a big focus if you can lose it at any time with basically no warning.

I still allow grounding in my home games and even use through quickened spells back to the original caster ... goes a long way in making sure my players don't go overboard on foci and quickening
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <05-28-20/1054:46>
Heh, you slipped me while I was editing for clarity.

Yeah, YMMV on grounding.  I think turning your F7 Power Focus into a nonmagical, mundane item for the low low cost of a little drain from a Manabolt serves the same purpose :)
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Banshee on <05-28-20/1058:27>
Heh, you slipped me while I was editing for clarity.

Yeah, YMMV on grounding.  I think turning your F7 Power Focus into a nonmagical, mundane item for the low low cost of a little drain from a Manabolt serves the same purpose :)

Yeah, I allow that too
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Lormyr on <05-28-20/1139:50>
Actual play for me in the live era of grounding never happened since it was before my time mind you, but I always found that rule atrocious. It's just too adversarial / fuck youish to the player for my tastes. I'd rather just see a balanced system that doesn't require fuck yous in order to help balance things.

Vampire the Masquerade is the very best example of that to me. You could spend a point of WP to get an auto success on a roll, which was often all you needed. When it came to mental and social powers, you could just auto inflict your ability on anyone if you really wanted too. God awful design, even if I love the setting.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Michael Chandra on <05-28-20/1201:36>
As I noted on Facebook regarding grounding and alternatives: To me, an active Focus should be like a gun: If it's 'hacked', you need to take time to get it ready for usage again. Not like a wireless grenade, where if it's 'hacked', the entire group dies. Bruteforcing them out of commission should be possible, but not wiping the entire group through an invisible enemy.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Banshee on <05-28-20/1204:52>
It's no more of an FU then grenades are, and ultimately it (for my home group at least) ends up just being a deterent to escalation. If they players keep things reasonable it doesn't get used. Just like with grenades, if my players don't use them neither do I.

But overall I would agree that an actual balanced system would be a better option, but until they let me take a machete to the magic system that is a long shot of getting implemented.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Lormyr on <05-28-20/1223:10>
It's no more of an FU then grenades are, and ultimately it (for my home group at least) ends up just being a deterent to escalation. If they players keep things reasonable it doesn't get used. Just like with grenades, if my players don't use them neither do I.

But overall I would agree that an actual balanced system would be a better option, but until they let me take a machete to the magic system that is a long shot of getting implemented.

Very true, but I also know that you are acutely aware of my stance on grenades. :p

I'd much rather see everything be relatively balanced to, but I also believe that they are unlikely to change their position on it this late in the game. Since we are here and in the right thread though, what would your changes look like if you were given the thumbs up to take care of business?
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Banshee on <05-28-20/1316:55>
Well now that you bring it up, I have rewritten the magic system to use in my own game I'm in the middle of developing.  Still in early stages so I will just touch on the highlights ...

Drain is a set value. So no more drain test and no such thing as casting a spell for "free", instead you have a mana pool that is determined by your "magic" attribute and refreshes with rest or meditation. When you run out of mana pool drain comes off your health track.
I keep Force pretty much the same as 6E so over casting just means taking more drain.
Suataining requires spending "X" mana points per round.
No quickening.
All foci are just mana batteries.
No over summoning and spirits are nerfed.. basically just mystic animal companions for a visual of power level.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Lormyr on <05-28-20/1323:20>
I see a lot of people mention quickening, but I rarely see that by itself as a problem. The actual problem to me is the number of spells in some editions that buff up. SR5 was nuts because of it, but at present, quickening in SR6 is no big deal at all.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Banshee on <05-28-20/1329:00>
I see a lot of people mention quickening, but I rarely see that by itself as a problem. The actual problem to me is the number of spells in some editions that buff up. SR5 was nuts because of it, but at present, quickening in SR6 is no big deal at all.

The problem with quickening is that it allows you to use all of those buffs on an effectively permanent basis. The buffs themselves are no more powerful than cyber/gear options just "cheaper"

My change still allows for the buffs but you have to take into account how fast it will drain your mana pool.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Lormyr on <05-28-20/1335:06>
That statement is fairly accurate for SR6, but is not even remotely close in SR5. 5 had a substantial number of buffs that ware could not duplicate. Combat Sense, Deflection, Element Aura, Astral Armor just to name a few.

But I am personally of the school of thought that if anyone should be allowed to have permanent buffs, everyone should be. How precisely we choose to allow that to occur is debatable.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Banshee on <05-28-20/1340:38>
Yes and if permanent magic buffs cost the same as tech buffs that would be OK too, but they don't as it is.

Magic buffs have practically zero opportunity cost (i.e. cyber uses up essence preventing other options), zero monetary cost, and minimal karma cost
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Lormyr on <05-28-20/1349:14>
In SR5, no contest, I fully agree.

SR6, I do agree they are arguably better, but there is a pro and con. Pro: cheap as hell in all regards. Con: can be taken away at a moments notice leaving you totally boned since dispelling is significantly easier than it was previously.

I expect that this balance will not remain for long though, because it is only a matter of time before power creep on spells available make the god buffed mage a thing again.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: BeCareful on <05-28-20/1926:19>
What would be a good encouragement for magicians to cast spells on allies? I mean, wasn't the original rationale of the -2 per sustained spell something like the magician can make you faster, you hotter, and the magician invisible, then hangs around until it's time to drop all those spells and fling Ball Lightning around?

Also, how about this for a house rule in 5th: No Power Foci, but a Spell Focus can work on Spellcasting, Counterspelling, or Sustaining, just not all at the same time?
So you won't need a bunch of foci and risk developing a dependency on them, and your Combat Focus would never get used for sustaining anything, but you could, say, use your Illusion Focus to help you cast your illusion, counter another illusion, or sustain an illusion you didn't use it to help you cast in the first place, but once it's sustaining something you can't use it for anything else.

As for spirits, what about spirits disliking hanging around places that aren't for them? Like, air spirits won't like it if you summon them indoors, People Spirits hate it if someone brings them to the wilderness, stuff like that? Though this would mean that water spirits might see the least use, there might not be any problem with Task Spirits,  and this is still a fluff solution to crunch problems, which rarely goes over well.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-29-20/0138:34>
Well, folks in opposing camps on whether limited or unlimited progression is best will likely never see eye to eye on the matter because the core philosophy is in direct opposition. I prefer my god mages to be confined to only high fantasy settings myself.

Likewise, for me, narrative penalties are a terrible way to attempt to balance game mechanics. Enhancement to game mechanics, though? Sure.

I think having some game mechanics to explain why IEs are so esoteric would be narratively beneficial.

These aren't soft mechanics, like "spirit reputation" or "how patrol IC work." It'd be more like addiction rules.

Once you hit a certain power level, bad things should happen, explaining why these people are so rare.

If a Street Sam's end endgame is cybermancy and needing to remember to not die. Then there should be something similar for mages. The cost of untold power should be your proverbial humanity.

We can do this with all the archetypes. Deckers become AI. Riggers become brains in jars. Technomancers suffer the same fate as the awakened, (or brains in jars too, as that's a MCT thing that sounded cool). The Face becomes a CEO of a mega...I don't know...

The idea is at a certain power level the PC is forced to become a NPC or dies. SR get's pretty broken at extremely high karma. You either retire to live off your last big score or you stop being metahuman.

Just my 2 nuyen.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Michael Chandra on <05-29-20/0231:31>
To quote one NPC about another NPC of mine that retired from retirement: "He gave up being human." There's a perfect six word story for that concept: "It cost too much, staying human."
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Lormyr on <05-29-20/0616:46>
See, where as I feel those are all excellent story, narrative, and character ideas that are role-play based and require no game mechanics. Mechanically speaking, essence does sort of cover that for the non-awakaned.
Title: Re: MagicRun: New Thread For SSDR
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <05-29-20/0940:14>
This is a neat concept.

Your Magic goes DOWN during game play just like essence, instead of going up.  0 is your hard cap for learning spells, gaining metamagics and so on...