[Hobbes]

6 Edge gives you a good chance of back to back turns of Anticipate.  That should clear the table most of the time, and most of the bad guys will have only gotten a single turn.

6e combat the PCs are going to take more damage than 5th.  Really the best way to stop it is to take down the other guys as quickly as possible.  Since Grenade Launchers aren't always the best answer, the combat Edge Actions are how it gets done in 6th.  Anticipate, Called Shot, Knockout Blow, Shank, whatever your characters jam is.  Combat builds should be cycling Edge like crazy, and as early as possible to prevent damage to the Runner team.

[Tecumseh]

6e combat the PCs are going to take more damage than 5th.

Is this just from the lack of armor in soak rolls or are there other factors at play too?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

6e combat the PCs are going to take more damage than 5th.

Is this just from the lack of armor in soak rolls or are there other factors at play too?

It's not entirely that simple.  in 5th, if you're hit what tends to happen is you either soak it all, or get one shotted.  So in this edition if hit you'll almost assuredly take more than nothing, but also less than a full CM wipe.

[Hobbes]

Equal parts lower soak, action economy/Initiative changes and reduced PC damage output.

Less actions, and less damage mean NPC threats are removed slower, and take more attacks.  Lower soak means the NPC attacks are likely to get something through.

However the lower soak totals work both ways as it means NPCs are taking minor damage from most attacks as well.  So the less combat focused runners really should be chipping in with something, if just to finish off the last few boxes on a mook here or there. 

A combat PC that opens with Anticipate plus a second Major action attack action really should remove one or two, and wound two or three NPCs in a pass.  The rest of the team should be cleaning up.  Ideally the combat PC then finishes the fight on their turn, before most of the NPCs get a second pass. 

That would be the ideal you're striving to reach.  The GM/NPCs may have other plans for your team.   

[Lormyr]

Areed.  Post character creation due to how karma costs works people might bump low skills that are linked to high attributes. But at char gen its all attributes until maybe karma spending and even then probably not much in skills a specialization, maybe pick up a core skill you don't want to default in and didn't have a point for but that's it.

I feel the same, at least for my standard build style.

Again, I haven't played 6E so my opinion isn't educated, but it seems like +4 Skills vs. +2 Edge is a plausible trade-off. Not a slam dunk, but a valid consideration between whether more skills or more Edge will better round out a character (again, with many variables like the play style of the table, the skillsets of other PCs in the team, etc.).

It could be, but would mostly depend on the specific skills and levels in question, as well as your goal. In short my view is that if you are doing anything other than taking the highest possible ratings with free attributes and skills then you are losing out on points. Now that is not necessarily "wrong" or anything, I am just a natural optimizer, so doing otherwise goes against my nature.

Equal parts lower soak, action economy/Initiative changes and reduced PC damage output.

Less actions, and less damage mean NPC threats are removed slower, and take more attacks.  Lower soak means the NPC attacks are likely to get something through.

However the lower soak totals work both ways as it means NPCs are taking minor damage from most attacks as well.  So the less combat focused runners really should be chipping in with something, if just to finish off the last few boxes on a mook here or there. 

A combat PC that opens with Anticipate plus a second Major action attack action really should remove one or two, and wound two or three NPCs in a pass.  The rest of the team should be cleaning up.  Ideally the combat PC then finishes the fight on their turn, before most of the NPCs get a second pass. 

That would be the ideal you're striving to reach.  The GM/NPCs may have other plans for your team.   

^All of this.

Your build has good base combat ability, reliable utility, and easy growth progression. If I was going to roll up a murder hobo that I wanted instant gratification with straight out chargen without using explosives, I'd go with this:

Skills      E (10 points)
Magic   D (Adept, 1 Magic)
Resources   C (150,000Y)
Karma   0/70; 10 Karma (Logic 1 to 2), 15 Karma (Athletics 0 to 2), 5 Karma (Firearms Specialization), 30 Karma (Perception 0 to 3), 5 Karma (Perception Specialization), 5 Karma (Stealth Specialization)

*ATTRIBUTES*

Body      5
Agility   8(12)
Reaction   6(9)
Strength   1
Willpower   5
Logic      2
Intuition   6
Charisma   1

Edge      6
Essence   3.03
Magic   6(3)

*SKILLS*

Athletics   2(3)
Firearms   7(11) (Rifles +2)
Perception   3 (Visual +2)
Stealth   3(4) (Urban +2)

*QUALITIES*

Aptitude (Firearms), -12 Karma
Exceptional Attribute (Agility), -12 Karma
Exceptional Attribute (Intuition), -12 Karma
Exceptional Attribute (Reaction), -12 Karma

Impaired Attribute (Charisma) 6, +48 Karma
Stolen Gear, +20 Karma

*ADEPT POWERS*

Improved Ability (Firearms) 3

*WARE*

Used Muscle Toner 4 (-0.88 Essence, 64,000Y)
Used Reflex Recorder (Athletics) (-0.11 Essence, 7,000Y)
Used Reflex Recorder (Firearms) (-0.11 Essence, 7,000Y)
Used Reflex Recorder (Stealth) (-0.11 Essence, 7,000Y)
Used Sleep Regulator (-0.11 Essence, 6,000Y)
Used Synaptic Booster 3 (-1.65 Essence, 142,500Y)

*GEAR*

116,500Y remaining for necessities and stuff

26 dice attack roll with anticipate using an FN-Har with explosive rounds and burstfire will pretty much decimate all opposition you can target. Build has over 100k left for gear after essential ware too.

[Michael Chandra]

6e combat the PCs are going to take more damage than 5th.

Is this just from the lack of armor in soak rolls or are there other factors at play too?

I ran some numbers a while ago on when a relatively-normal runner gets attacked by 5 grunts (I recall SWAT level in SR6) in SR5 vs SR6. The average damage and hit chances per attack were quite comparable, and SR6 has the upside that you only face 1 attack instead of 5, aka only 1/5 of the damage you would take in SR5. This also means less 'hey five people fire at you, one bad roll and they're going to massacre you'.

(As for the hit chances: Attackers hit on ties, but NPCs have lower dice at the initial PR levels, and there's no more decreasing defense dicepool, so that averaged out to about the same hit chances of 1 grunt group of 5 in SR6 vs 5 grunts in SR5. An added upside is that in SR5, ties hit in cover, so Cover got a boost now because you no longer get hit more easily when using cover.)

[Hobbes]

If I was going to roll up a murder hobo that I wanted instant gratification with straight out chargen without using explosives, I'd go with this:

Skills      E (10 points)
Magic   D (Adept, 1 Magic)
Resources   C (150,000Y)
Karma   0/70; 10 Karma (Logic 1 to 2), 15 Karma (Athletics 0 to 2), 5 Karma (Firearms Specialization), 30 Karma (Perception 0 to 3), 5 Karma (Perception Specialization), 5 Karma (Stealth Specialization)

One of the characters I'm going to use for Missions has the same Array, and similar build.  Mostly gets rid of the Hobo, at the cost of some of the Murder.  Most Missions has a diminishing return on Combat ability.  At least in 5th. 

[Lormyr]

Most Missions has a diminishing return on Combat ability.  At least in 5th.

Very much so. I'm hoping the general difficulty is increased with 6e.

They'd be insane to allow stolen gear in Missions as well, which would drastically alter that build.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Very much so. I'm hoping the general difficulty is increased with 6e.

Well Missions is written to a low threat bar. Of course the GM can always ramp up the difficulty when there's optimizers at the table.  But writing to cater to the optimizers threatens to give the players who design characters with 6-9 dice in a pool a Bad Time.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Very much so. I'm hoping the general difficulty is increased with 6e.

Well Missions is written to a low threat bar. Of course the GM can always ramp up the difficulty when there's optimizers at the table.  But writing to cater to the optimizers threatens to give the players who design characters with 6-9 dice in a pool a Bad Time.

6-9 seems extreme on the other end, they'd have a hard time in a non optimizer balanced game as well. About the only person I expect to have 12 dice in their gimmick is the mage and that's because I don't assume focuses out of the gate, its pretty valid too hold off on those until you can mask them.  Though that is a campaign style thing. Every other player type I expect more than 12 dice. And that's not optimizing, that's pretty basic char gen stuff. Less than that and you are purposely playing a ineffective character as a gimmick, hey look I have a 2 charisma face style stuff. And more power to you if you want to do that, but I don't feel bad if the clumsy glass jawed street sam gets splattered his first run.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Even on an awakened character where you have no intention of buying anything but magic for the foreseeable future, focusing on attributes will round you out much better than focusing on skills.

Generally speaking, yes, I agree.

But in this situation, we're talking not talking about static Attributes but rather Edge, the quantity of which fluctuates during play. And we're talking about Edge 4 vs. Edge 6, the value of which is debatable (to wit, see the Chandra/Hobbes discussion).

Again, I haven't played 6E so my opinion isn't educated, but it seems like +4 Skills vs. +2 Edge is a plausible trade-off. Not a slam dunk, but a valid consideration between whether more skills or more Edge will better round out a character (again, with many variables like the play style of the table, the skillsets of other PCs in the team, etc.).

For a shooter I'd say the edge wins as edge actions are heavily based around combat skills. I personally hate the edge action design, but its in the game.  Mage have a bit less of incentive to hit 6 edge IMO, they don't have things like anticipation so maybe for a mage a couple points in skills is more valuable.

[Hobbes]

Even on an awakened character where you have no intention of buying anything but magic for the foreseeable future, focusing on attributes will round you out much better than focusing on skills.

Generally speaking, yes, I agree.

But in this situation, we're talking not talking about static Attributes but rather Edge, the quantity of which fluctuates during play. And we're talking about Edge 4 vs. Edge 6, the value of which is debatable (to wit, see the Chandra/Hobbes discussion).

Again, I haven't played 6E so my opinion isn't educated, but it seems like +4 Skills vs. +2 Edge is a plausible trade-off. Not a slam dunk, but a valid consideration between whether more skills or more Edge will better round out a character (again, with many variables like the play style of the table, the skillsets of other PCs in the team, etc.).

For a shooter I'd say the edge wins as edge actions are heavily based around combat skills. I personally hate the edge action design, but its in the game.  Mage have a bit less of incentive to hit 6 edge IMO, they don't have things like anticipation so maybe for a mage a couple points in skills is more valuable.

Summoning and re-rolling GM hits is strong.  Sprite Affinity, Reagents, plus a Mentor Spirit, you're easily forcing a re-roll on every hit the GM gets.  Increases Net Services and decreases your Drain for the same Edge.  Re-rolling Spell resistance hits also seems like it could work fairly well, or at least force a fair amount of GM edge spend.

Mages can build a significant Edge engine, and can/should absolutely use it.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Even on an awakened character where you have no intention of buying anything but magic for the foreseeable future, focusing on attributes will round you out much better than focusing on skills.

Generally speaking, yes, I agree.

But in this situation, we're talking not talking about static Attributes but rather Edge, the quantity of which fluctuates during play. And we're talking about Edge 4 vs. Edge 6, the value of which is debatable (to wit, see the Chandra/Hobbes discussion).

Again, I haven't played 6E so my opinion isn't educated, but it seems like +4 Skills vs. +2 Edge is a plausible trade-off. Not a slam dunk, but a valid consideration between whether more skills or more Edge will better round out a character (again, with many variables like the play style of the table, the skillsets of other PCs in the team, etc.).

For a shooter I'd say the edge wins as edge actions are heavily based around combat skills. I personally hate the edge action design, but its in the game.  Mage have a bit less of incentive to hit 6 edge IMO, they don't have things like anticipation so maybe for a mage a couple points in skills is more valuable.

Summoning and re-rolling GM hits is strong.  Sprite Affinity, Reagents, plus a Mentor Spirit, you're easily forcing a re-roll on every hit the GM gets.  Increases Net Services and decreases your Drain for the same Edge.  Re-rolling Spell resistance hits also seems like it could work fairly well, or at least force a fair amount of GM edge spend.

Mages can build a significant Edge engine, and can/should absolutely use it.

Sure, but you don't need a big starting edge pool for that, 4 heck 3 would handle that fine. There is no big 4 point edge moved you are trying to capitalize on its almost all 1 and 2 point actions. I suspect most of mine would end up with 5 but that is just because I like playing humans even though I recognize they are mechanically the worst choice this edition. And D magic, C human gets me 5 I think and I wouldn't be able to put some of those in Chr or whatever.  I'll happily roll with 2 spells the first run and quickly build my known spells up to a point I am happy with through runs.

Edit to add I can see going for 6+ edge for future proofing reasons. The magic book will come out and I would not be surprised if some big magic based edge moves were added. Honestly I'd be surprised if they didn't add that. But, that is probably a year+ off.

[topcat]

Sure, but you don't need a big starting edge pool for that, 4 heck 3 would handle that fine. There is no big 4 point edge moved you are trying to capitalize on its almost all 1 and 2 point actions.

Anticipation (4) and Called Shot-Vitals (5) have been pretty effective openers in our recent test...

Clarification: not in combination, but one or the other, because some autist or another will run down that rabbit hole if I don't close it.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Sure, but you don't need a big starting edge pool for that, 4 heck 3 would handle that fine. There is no big 4 point edge moved you are trying to capitalize on its almost all 1 and 2 point actions.

Anticipation (4) and Called Shot-Vitals (5) have been pretty effective openers in our recent test...

Clarification: not in combination, but one or the other, because some autist or another will run down that rabbit hole if I don't close it.

Agreed those are great.  Just not something I expect a mage to capitalize on very often.  They will use a lot of edge rerolling successes of their summons hits. But the things a mage will use are 1-2 point moves.