[All4BigGuns]

You know, looking back on this I still have to wonder at all the hate people have for the idea of the different damage types... I mean, seriously, SR4 is based on Ballistic and Impact, yeah, but that's further modified with Physical or Stun for four possible damage permutations, and then there's Elemental damage types like Radiation, Fire, Water, Sound, Smoke, Sand, Metal, Light, Ice, Blast, and Acid, all of which have their own quirks and requirements for damage calculation.

We have a situation where people are just fine with SR4 having something like 15 damage types because they're spread out over a few different books and most of them are treated as "Special Exceptions" with all sorts of little tweaks to the base types, but they go "But it's too complicated!" at my suggestion, which has fewer damage types, because I list them in one place and actually treat them as separate entities.

Also, how is a sword being able to be used to attack four separate ways any different than having all sorts of special Ammo types to choose from to modify the weapon's damage?

And, in case it matters, this was planned for a low-fantasy, low-tech universe that won't have all sorts of magic and spirits and guns and cyberware, and the combat was supposed be something a little more tactical than "I roll to hit" "Miss. Roll to dodge." "Dodged. I roll to hit." until someone falls over.

The problem lies with the fact that what you're proposing is changing something only for the purpose of changing it. It doesn't actually improve anything. It just makes a small handful out of a small subset of gamers smile because they like super duper uber "realism" at the expense of the fun of the game.

[Mirikon]

If it ain't broke...

[JustADude]

The problem lies with the fact that what you're proposing is changing something only for the purpose of changing it. It doesn't actually improve anything. It just makes a small handful out of a small subset of gamers smile because they like super duper uber "realism" at the expense of the fun of the game.

If it ain't broke...

[rant]
[sarcasm]
Changing something when I'm trying to come up with original ideas for a NEW RPG SYSTEM?! Wow, you're right, what was I ever thinking of? How absolutely shocking and horrible of me to want to try something that hasn't been done a million times before! I should just be a good little drone and just go modify Fate or make another regurgitated d20 variant.
[/sarcasm]

Look, A4BG, Mirikon, I'm trying to create something that does NOT have magic, does NOT have cyberware, does NOT have super-mega-not-really-a-nuke weapon satellites, and does NOT have dragons and trolls and vorpal nose-hair trimmers or any of the other sci-fi/fantasy detritus that always clutters up most historical settings.

I'm trying to create a game for people who want actual tactical fights with people vs other people rather than rolling "swing, dodge, swing, dodge" ad-nauseum with some flashy kabooms thrown in and pixies (or mini-drones) flying around all over the place. And yes, I'm trying to keep it all streamlined and light on its feet, but with more OPTIONS on how you do what you do. Simple things to change your attack that aren't going to take any more time to apply than having Gel Rounds turn your AR into Stun damage that goes against Impact armor.

Yeah, you have a couple more lines of info to write down, but actually applying them is as simple as A vs A, B vs B, C vs C, or D vs D, pick one.

It's NOT SHADOWRUN, it's NOT DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, and it's NOT SUPPOSED TO BE! This system won't have all the other bloody supernatural, future-y clutter to take up head-space, so it damn well needs SOMETHING to make it interesting.

If you don't like it, fine, but quit acting like trying to do something new is doomed to failure just because I'm not singing the praises of current RPGs and claiming they're absolutely perfect and there's no need for any other RPG systems to ever be invented.

Okay?

Good.
[/rant]

Right, now that that's out of my system...

l'd thought about other ideas, as well, like giving weapons a Mass rating and an Edge rating and giving armor a Hardness rating and having those modify other ratings, but those ideas were just awkward and clunky, so don't think I'm going for "super duper uber realism", because I'm not. I want to create something that's got more realistic options for how armor and weapons handle damage, yes, but I still want it fun and agile to play with.

I don't mind criticism, but everything I've been hearing basically boil's down to "Give up and go home, kid, this sucks balls." How about giving me some feedback that's actually constructive? If you think it's too complex, what parts do you think could be folded together, for example.

I'd really appreciate it, since I actually think the current setup is pretty damn simple and obvious. Maybe it's just because I wrote it, or hell, maybe I'm just that much of a genius (yes, I'm joking here), but it really doesn't seem any more complicated to me than all the stuff you have to remember for Shadowrun.

[Slazarith]

I'd play it. Sounds pretty cool.

If you do go ahead and write it, you should send me a copy. If not, I might just steal your idea, if that's all right...

[JustADude]

I'd play it. Sounds pretty cool.

If you do go ahead and write it, you should send me a copy. If not, I might just steal your idea, if that's all right...

Definitely will. 

[PeterSmith]

I'm trying to create a game for people who want actual tactical fights with people vs other people rather than rolling "swing, dodge, swing, dodge" ad-nauseum with some flashy kabooms thrown in and pixies (or mini-drones) flying around all over the place.

And at the end of the day, you're still going to end up with a system that's action/reaction, action/reaction.

And yes, I'm trying to keep it all streamlined and light on its feet, but with more OPTIONS on how you do what you do.

You want streamlined, or you want options? They oppose each other, you need to decide what you want and go forward.

Simple things to change your attack that aren't going to take any more time to apply than having Gel Rounds turn your AR into Stun damage that goes against Impact armor.

Going by your initial post, you had four attack vectors for weapons against six defense vectors for armor. That gives me a max of twenty-four combinations to address for a single weapon against a single armor. Not very streamlined, considering your example from Shadowrun is a pretty simple swap of damage values when you change out the magazine.

Yeah, you have a couple more lines of info to write down, but actually applying them is as simple as A vs A, B vs B, C vs C, or D vs D, pick one.

One could do this for any game system.

It's NOT SHADOWRUN, it's NOT DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, and it's NOT SUPPOSED TO BE! This system won't have all the other bloody supernatural, future-y clutter to take up head-space, so it damn well needs SOMETHING to make it interesting.

A good GM can make a bad system interesting.

How about giving me some feedback that's actually constructive?

From here it looks like you're looking to make a tactical combat system more than an RPG. To me, an RPG needs something to make the players exceptional. You seem to be heading the other way, eschewing that for a combat system that's more realistic. If that's what you want, great. Just consider a change in your mindset for what you're doing.

[Lacynth40]

Well, don't forget abrasions. Rope type weapons also abrade skin right off if used right. May not seem like much, but those take much longer to heal, and thus, more likely to become infected. If you've ever seen a biker get some nasty road rash, you know what I mean.

[CanRay]

Well, don't forget abrasions. Rope type weapons also abrade skin right off if used right. May not seem like much, but those take much longer to heal, and thus, more likely to become infected. If you've ever seen a biker get some nasty road rash, you know what I mean.

This.  Very much this!!!

I grew up around bikers.

[Lacynth40]

Well, don't forget abrasions. Rope type weapons also abrade skin right off if used right. May not seem like much, but those take much longer to heal, and thus, more likely to become infected. If you've ever seen a biker get some nasty road rash, you know what I mean.

This.  Very much this!!!

I grew up around bikers.

And fists after hard fighting... Abrasions everywhere on the knuckles. Hurts like hell for a couple days afterwards. Might also be a combination of abrasions and busted knuckles.

[JustADude]

Well, don't forget abrasions. Rope type weapons also abrade skin right off if used right. May not seem like much, but those take much longer to heal, and thus, more likely to become infected. If you've ever seen a biker get some nasty road rash, you know what I mean.

This.  Very much this!!!

I grew up around bikers.

And fists after hard fighting... Abrasions everywhere on the knuckles. Hurts like hell for a couple days afterwards. Might also be a combination of abrasions and busted knuckles.

Wow, almost forgot I'd written this...

I think Abrasion would fit most as a type of "Pressure" damage... gonna go back and add it now.

As for knuckle-burn... probably could throw in some form of "Structure Rating" type system for weapons, where if you deal more damage with them than they can take the weapon (or in this case you, since they're your actual hands) suffer damage as well. After all, everyone knows you can break a pool-cue over someone's head, right?

I'd play it. Sounds pretty cool.

If you do go ahead and write it, you should send me a copy. If not, I might just steal your idea, if that's all right...

And, Slaz, if you're still out there and want to use this, go ahead and steal away. School and other efforts have killed my drive to finish the rest of the project.

[Mason]

As long as each weapon attack chooses ONE damage type, then tests against that armor type, I think it is great. As in:

I slash at him, aiming for his arms. He defends with slash resistance.
I smack him with the pommel. He defends with blunt resistance.

etc.

Otherwise, it becomes too clunky for my own tastes, as it would entail multiple tests on each side to resolve each attack. Your mileage may vary. Hope that helps.

[JustADude]

As long as each weapon attack chooses ONE damage type, then tests against that armor type, I think it is great. As in:

I slash at him, aiming for his arms. He defends with slash resistance.
I smack him with the pommel. He defends with blunt resistance.

You got it exactly right.

[fovar]

What I wonder is:

How will you calculate damage?
I know you want to create something anew, but I'd suggest you look into the Heavy Gear / Tribes / Dream Pod 9 System. Basically, every weapon has a damage value which is not rolled. (example: A vibro sword does x15). Then everycharacter has a Stamina value that determines thresholds: how easily one is wounded. (Basic characters would have 13/light wounds, 25/deep wounds, 50/instant death I think.)

Then armor add a fixed rating to those. (example, a light armor add 10. Tresholds become 23 / 35 / 60.

When an attack is rolled, a Defense is rolled also (skill+mods vs. skill+mods). If the attacker succeeds, take note of the Margin of Success (equal means Margin 0, a grazing hit, with increasing numbers meaning an increasingly solid hit). The Margin of Success is then multiplied by the damage rating of the weapon and compared to the opponent's resistance.

Let's say the ennemy was unarmored and the MoS (Margin of Success) is 2. That does 30 damage. It is higher than the character's Deep Wound Threshold, 25, but less than the Instant Death threshold, 50. Result, a deep, open wound with guts threatening to spill out.

Now would the target has worn a protective armor that adds, say, 10 versus slashing. The attack still deal 30 damage but doesn't reach the new treshold of 35. Result: The Cuir Boilli armor resisted much of the impact, leaving a deep, very painful gash, but nothing immediately life-threatening.

When a character has enough Flesh Wounds/Deep Wounds, the body goes into shock and dies. Reanimation might not be possible in your universe. Otherwise there would be a delay before the opponent is truly dead where he can be reanimated.

This system could make your offense type vs defense type more viable. Simply calculate your Damage Resistance value with each type of attack, and add different accuracy rating on weapon depending on how they're used (e.g.: the same sword have +1 to hit when slashing, +0 when thrusting, -1 when bashing).

---------

But, to remain constructive, relax. Different types of attacks with a single weapon, I can go with. But calculating how resistant an armor is to abrasion? Will that be enough of an occurence to be actually helpful, worth calculating for every single character/armor or could it be dealt in a more streamlined way?

Crushing is a bit like impact, I'd make it a derivative. Abrasion is a lot like slashing... derivate. Caustic takes Piercing Resistance value, divides it by two, reduce all values of the same armor by X or whatever.

Otherwise, a single piece of equipment will take a full character sheet.


- Fovar

[fovar]

Sorry, reread my post and thought more would be better.

I go with previous posts when they say it could become a strategy game instead of an RPG. What you want is people that think about their actions and describe them in a colourful way, but trying to police that by adding so many many types of damage would be self defeating.

Unless you are willing to accept that sandpaper is a good back-up weapon because so many armor aren't resistant to abrasive damage.

Now, as in more details, the core mechanics of Dream Pod 9:
Characters have 10 PRIMARY attributes. Those are awarded a value of -4 to +4 with anything beyond -2/+2 being extremely rare. Think of them as stat modifier of D20 (not focusing on DEX 18 but the +4 bonus it confers). It works with a point buy with each score increasing exponantially.

-4 would refund 9 points
-3 refunds 4 points
-2 refunds 1 point
-1 is free
0 costs 1 point
1 costs 4 points
2 costs 9 points
3 costs 16 points
4 costs 25 points

Agility: The quickness and precision of movements.
Appearance: How cute/gruesome a character is.
Build: How massive a character is. Not physical strenght.
Creativity: How a character can adapt to a given situation. Or create something new.
Fitness: How in shape a character is. Not Physical strenght again.
Influence: How a character get what he wants.
Knowledge: How learned a character is. Like Logic.
Perception: A character's Awareness.
Psyche: Mental stability, bare Luck and pleasantness. How one deal with stress.
Willpower: Degree of control over one's own actions.

From them, other stats are derived:
Strenght: (Build + Fitness) / 2. Zero Average like a primary attribute. What you can carry/ the power of your punch depends on the weight you can transfer and your physical shape.
Health: (Fitness+Psyche+Willpower)/3. A character with good habits, both physical and mental will withstand better diseases/poisons and the likes. Zero Average.
Stamina: (Build+Health)*5+25. Not Zero Average. Determines the Damage Thresholds mentionned earlier.
Unarmed Damage:3+Hand to Hand SKILL+Strenght+Build. This is multiplied by the Margin of Success but makes for weak attacks. I'd suggest adding bonus for special fighting styles that can break bones.
Armed Damage: 3+Melee SKILL+Strenght+Build. This is added to the melee weapon's damage value, then multiplied by the Margin of success of an attack.


The system is pretty well made, including the effects of fire/electricity (flesh wound from electricity causes temporary paralysis, deep wound by fire causes a character to not be able to do anything but yell and run/roll on the floor...), how to resist diseases, how to avoid infection in a wound, how wounds can become «destabilized» when engaged in strenuous activities.

Most books even include a whole list of perks/flaws. Of course, SR4's list is a good place to start, but...