Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Jack_Spade on <11-21-14/0600:16>
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I noticed that so far all my characters in SR 5 had the positive quality exeptional attribute in one way or another.
So I wondered, which attribute do you tend to improve beyond the max?
For mundane characters I usually emphasize Intuition, since it improves initiative, perception and tracking checks and is one of the few attributes that can't be enhanced with ware or adept powers.
For my adepts, I always take improved attribute magic, so I'll get powerpoints and improve my dice pool for attribute boost.
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For magic users, easily Magic. It adds an additional Initiation level as well, something that should be a REAL challenge to actually finish that final procedure. Otherwise, i would venture to say that each character should have exceptional in the attribute tied to their particular frequently used skills. Street Sam could go body or str, a face would want CHA, and a rigger/decker would want log.. It's all based on the character you play, really.
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A raised maximum Initiation level isn't that big a deal though. By that time an Initiation costs 31 karma. And until you take that seventh Initiation grade, which you could also unlock by buying Magic up to 7, you don't benefit from the raised maximum because your Initiation Grade still is simply how many initiations you took. The main benefit is sacrificing 1 Edge and 14 karma for 1 Magic, rather than 35 after chargen. For a low-Edge character it's both beneficial karma-wise and gives a nice power boost straight out of the gate.
The downside, meanwhile, is that Exceptional Magic is taking the ONE uncapped attribute, so you cannot exceptional another attribute in return for just a bit of karma profit and an initial power boost. It may make more sense for mages to buff their willpower since they can always get Magic 7 later and 1 extra point of Edge is also real useful straight out of the gate.
A Street Samurai should go Agility unless they're actually going to cap Intuition instead of Agility. I'd prioritize offense myself, since Edge for initiative + full defense is always a neat available combination, especially with Agile Defender.
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For me it's gotta be MAG and RES. Both cost a lot to raise from 6 in-game so to do it at chargen can be pretty handy!
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In descending order of usefulness, in my opinion:
Non-Magic/Tecnomancer
Charisma (Face)
Agility
Reaction
Intuition
Willpower
Body
Charisma (Non-Face)
Strength
Logic
Magic/Tecnomancer
Magic/Resonance
Charisma (Face)
Willpower
Logic (or Charisma for Shaman)
Agility
Reaction
Intuition
Body
Charisma (Non-Face/Non-Shaman))
Strength
That said, I rarely use Exceptional Attribute.
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I'd rank Intuition above Reaction myself. Reaction is for driving, anti-suppressive fire and physical limit, Intuition for perception, mental limit and a few nice mental skills. Of those my personal preference is the second. On the other hand, Perception is doable with wireless (and also non-wireless) gear. So it's a tough choice.
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I feel like it is rarely worth it, if ever. Even for Magic. For a lot of combat stats, ware is by far the better way to get high dice pools. I'd say maybe Willpower or Intuition since there is no ware to boost the dice pools for those.
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About the only time I find myself taking Exceptional Attribute is for Logic for deckers. Sometimes I'll take Exceptional Attribute - Body if I want a tank Troll.
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I'd rank Intuition above Reaction myself. Reaction is for driving, anti-suppressive fire and physical limit, Intuition for perception, mental limit and a few nice mental skills. Of those my personal preference is the second. On the other hand, Perception is doable with wireless (and also non-wireless) gear. So it's a tough choice.
I agree with Michael, I'd take Intuition over Reaction. For one, you can boost Reaction with gear. For two, Intuition tends to benefit more things. Aside from what Michael listed, it also impacts your Street and Interest Knowledge skills and Matrix Searches, which a lot of characters tend to have the capability to perform, even if they aren't a decker.
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I find myself taking Exceptional Attribute on many of my characters. The die pool is often determined by stat + skill, and it seems to be more effective to start out with a maxed-out stat and a few maxed skills in my area of specialization, even if that makes me have to buy up several other skills during play.
The attribute you choose, of course, depends on the character type. There's the (elven) face with a Charisma of 9, the decker with a Logic of 9 (6 + 1 Exceptional Attribute + 2 Cerebral Booster), the bodyguard with an Intuition of 7...all of these allow you to have your area of specialty at 13+ dice even before adding 'ware, and getting close to 20 dice after all your other bonuses are added in. This also lets you get anything related to your prime state at a decent level for a mere 2 Karma expenditure. Maybe your face is a smooth talker and doesn't like playing the heavy...but with a 9 Charisma, you can get Intimidation to 10 dice easily, and higher if some of your general bonuses carry over.
Perhaps the most extreme example is my daughter's character, a physical adept who just completed her first initiation and now has a 12 Agility. She's sitting on 21 dice with her main weapons (6 skill + specialization + laser sight/smartgun), but could pick up any weapon and use it at 11 dice, or 13 dice once she has a chance to spend a few Karma. Sure, it makes her a bit of a pro from Dover, but the sacrifice to her other abilities isn't as high as you might expect. For example, she still manages to squeeze out 12 dice for Negotiation (Bargaining), so she's more than just a weapons specialist.
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While I almost never use exceptional attribute myself, I have put some thought into it. I would use intuition on most any character. Strength on a gun troll gets really scary (augments up to 15, which is 5 recoil comp. Can you say ouch?), charisma on an elven face, and will on an elven technomancer are excellent choices.
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While I almost never use exceptional attribute myself, I have put some thought into it. I would use intuition on most any character. Strength on a gun troll gets really scary (augments up to 15, which is 5 recoil comp. Can you say ouch?), charisma on an elven face, and will on an elven technomancer are excellent choices.
Wait, Str 15 on a gun troll? Not that the recoil comp is bad, but that priority is a tad off.
I mean I can see STR 15 on a blade troll being scary (DV 20P) but guns?
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Strength on a gun troll gets really scary (augments up to 15, which is 5 recoil comp. Can you say ouch?).
Remember, that it gets rounded up, so you'd need 13 STR for 5 RC and 16 to get the next point. So exceptional attribute would not be required for a gunner.
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yeah its a bit overkill. the RC is nifty for LMG-troll, especially with gyromount in a cyberarm + gas vent 3 + shockpad + foregrip, but its a pretty niche build and doesnt really require EA.
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Strength / 3 = rc, according to core book, combat section. Therefore, 15 / 3 = 5 rc. Unless that's been changed in errata. So, take an Ares alpha, add shock pad and gas vent 3, factor in first round for free, and he can fire 12 rounds with no recoil. That is 4 burst fires in a row, or 2 simple full auto. Or worse, hmg with hip brace, gas vent 3, and gyro mount for 15 recoil comp total. And then he can whip out a combat axe if necessary. That is scary.
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Strength / 3 = rc, according to core book, combat section. Therefore, 15 / 3 = 5 rc.
13 / 3 = 5 rc too because you always round up unless mentioned otherwise.
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Strength / 3 = rc, according to core book, combat section. Therefore, 15 / 3 = 5 rc. Unless that's been changed in errata. So, take an Ares alpha, add shock pad and gas vent 3, factor in first round for free, and he can fire 12 rounds with no recoil. That is 4 burst fires in a row, or 2 simple full auto. Or worse, hmg with hip brace, gas vent 3, and gyro mount for 15 recoil comp total. And then he can whip out a combat axe if necessary. That is scary.
Aside from ZeldaBravo repeating what you've already been told, maybe you should read up the errata on recoil:
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, a Simple or Complex Action other than shooting
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So if you're not using complex actions to fire, the most you'll ever need is 5RC from STR and gear with simple FA, because you get 1 free RC with every shot.
Add a Foregrip to your Ares Alpha and it can be fired with STR 4 for a complex Full Auto without RC.
Using simple actions to fire allow you to take aim or cover in between shots, which should not be underestimated :)
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Magic or Resonance. Outside of fluff reasons, the spreadsheet-infused part of my brain refuses to allow me to use EA on any normal stat because math.
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Edge. Agility. Intuition. Willpower. That's pretty much it, for me - Logic if you have a decker / technomancer that desperately needs that last point, ditto on Charisma for the face; any of the mentals for a mage's Drain attributes. But when it boils down to it, the other two Mental attributes can be boosted, and while every physical attribute can, it's nice to be able to eke out that last bit of Agility. And Edge because otherwise you just can't boost it past its limit, period.
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Edge. As its the only Stat that Universally useful regardless of build
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Edge. As its the only Stat that Universally useful regardless of build
Edge may be useful, but it's not easy to use Lucky at character creation without wasting points. A human with Metatype priority C gets 5 special attribute points, which is enough to get Edge to 7 (thanks to the Human bonus on Edge). To get Edge to 8, you have to get the Lucky quality, go with Metatype priority B, and have 1 special attribute point wasted (unless you're also magically active)?
Elves can get to a 7 Edge without wasting points, but are still burning a B priority on it (plus the Lucky quality, of course). Dwarves, Orks have to burn their A priority, and Trolls can't do it at all during character creation.
After character creation, you are looking at spending 68 Karma (28 for the Lucky quality, 40 points to raise Edge from 7 to 8 ). Overall, Lucky just isn't worth the expenditure.
Magic or Resonance. Outside of fluff reasons, the spreadsheet-infused part of my brain refuses to allow me to use EA on any normal stat because math.
Care to share the math on this? Are you comparing the costs to raise a stat versus the associated skills? Does training time factor into the final calculation?
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See math-wise I'd go against magic myself. Yes, you can weigh Exceptional Magic + 1 SAP > no Exceptional Magic + 1 edge more versus having to buy 1 more magic later. But here's the thing: You win a bit of karma in return for not being to ever exceptional another attribute. Magic is unlimited and Initiations are cheap so you're soon going to reach the point where the Exceptional status means nothing for your maximum except for a bit of karma saved. Meanwhile, your other attributes are hardcapped to a natural maximum. As I said before:
A raised maximum Initiation level isn't that big a deal though. By that time an Initiation costs 31 karma. And until you take that seventh Initiation grade, which you could also unlock by buying Magic up to 7, you don't benefit from the raised maximum because your Initiation Grade still is simply how many initiations you took. The main benefit is sacrificing 1 Edge and 14 karma for 1 Magic, rather than 35 after chargen. For a low-Edge character it's both beneficial karma-wise and gives a nice power boost straight out of the gate.
The downside, meanwhile, is that Exceptional Magic is taking the ONE uncapped attribute, so you cannot exceptional another attribute in return for just a bit of karma profit and an initial power boost. It may make more sense for mages to buff their willpower since they can always get Magic 7 later and 1 extra point of Edge is also real useful straight out of the gate.
The only exception really is Mystic Adepts, since they cannot get that seventh PP for karma without Exceptional Magic and getting all seven in chargen.
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i kinda like it for mages tbh, raising a stat from 6-7 takes 40 karma with the pre requisite that you initiate before to raise your max magic, which is 13 karma iirc.
so for 14 karma and 1 SAP you can get 53 karma straight out of the door.
I've used it with older characters to represent their initiations (because you can't start initiated at chargen) or for chars where i know i want to develop other things first whilst leaving magic static for a while.
Granted, as a GM if i saw this on a clearly min-maxxed munchkin build i'd be extremely hesitant to allow it, but when flavourful or in context i think its a reasonable pick.
Certainly on pbp games i'd be fine with it, they die often before karma is awarded
I also kinda like it on Technomancers. they're bad enough that getting them to RES 7 in chargen is a bit of a help for not a huge investment
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35, not 40. And you'd get that Initiation anyway, so it's not a karma benefit. Plus you lose out on Edge. So at the very least, you spend 14 karma + 10 (the value of 1->2 Edge) for 35, which means at best you save 11 karma + you get a headstart of a few sessions. However, the headstart is essentially worthless after a while. Meanwhile, Exceptional <normal attribute> is irreplacable, meaning you actually gain something karma cannot buy afterwards.
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initiation gets you a metamagic though, it doesn't get you to MAG 7 iirc? you'd have to then raise your MAG to 7 using karma. (pg 325, SR5 core)
So the total to get to MAG 7 without it would be initiation which costs 13 karma (and 1 month of downtime), plus 35 karma to raise the attrib. which is 48 total. if you're getting 5 karma per run then you're looking at 9-10 runs of doing nothing else with your karma and at least 1 month of downtime to initiate. Of course you could expediate it by trading cash for karma, but you're still looking at quite a lot of real life time and in-game time before you can get it.
I don't get where EDG comes in to the maths mate, i must have missed something...
if you're taking Human, 3 (priority D) and Magic A for MAG 6; then 1 SAP gets you to MAG 7 with 14 karma spent only on exceptional attribute.
your other 2 SAP get you to EDG 4.
Its a bargain really.
I get that using it on AGI or BOD or something is cool, but for a mage, its rare that i have enough attrib points to get my physical stats that high anyway, they go into mental stats for drain pool. I can def see the value in getting WIL 7 or something that you can't boost otherwise, but i like it for magic and resonance, especially for games where longevity might not be great.
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initiation gets you a metamagic though, it doesn't get you to MAG 7 iirc? you'd have to then raise your MAG to 7 using karma. (pg 325, SR5 core)
So the total to get to MAG 7 without it would be initiation which costs 13 karma (and 1 month of downtime), plus 35 karma to raise the attrib. which is 48 total.
As I said, the Initiation wouldn't count for the karma benefit because you're going to initiate anyway, no matter whether your Magic is 6 or 7. So that doesn't count for the karma saving. In other words, you SOLELY save the 7x5=35 karma that I stated, in return for spending 14 and wasting 10 at the very least. Your example with 4 Edge instead of 5 Edge is in fact inferior karmawise: That 5th Edge point is 25 karma, while Exceptional Attribute is 14, so you're wasting the equivalence of 39 karma to save 35.
Sure, for short games it's a nice power boost, but your math is wrong longterm and you're basically crippling the character longterm by going for a short-term benefit. That's not a bargain under any karma-efficient definition.
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Personally, I'd say that Agility would be the best choice for Exceptional Attribute (even, or perhaps especially as an Elf). This is because that attribute goes into perhaps the single largest number of tests. Conversely, Intuition could be considered a tie for this because it is one of the few attributes that can not be directly augmented (outside of choosing it for the Increase <Attribute> spell of course).
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I'll post something more in depth tomorrow, but the tryptophan is setting in.
Resonance > Magic >>> Intuition >= Reaction is basically how I see it. Edge really comes down to how your game is run and how the rest of your character operates--it's certainly possible to make an Edge 8 character with smaller dice pools that revolves around spending Edge often, but that's really a character mechanic and not a universal truth about how to apply Exceptional Attribute. Yes, Edge is great, but unless I'm in a CMP, my Edge 5 character rarely uses all of his Edge in single SRM session. If he had an Edge of 8, I'd never use that final point.
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I also don't see how Lucky (the Exceptional Attribute for Edge) is useful in a Priority System. I could maybe see it being useful if you could raise it manually, but in the Priority system, you lose out on something else to gain that extra Edge (not to mention that humans waste SAPs at Priority A or B unless they are not mundane, and that requires another priority slot). Whether it's Attributes, Skills, or even just Money; you lose something to get 1 extra Edge. When you can easily get 7 Edge for a lower priority without losing stuff (as a human), I really don't see how 8 Edge is that useful.
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Exceptional Magic has some uses I agree. But regardless it remains useful to only to a subset of archetypes.
Making not the best exceptional. Agility is also only useful a subset of Archetypes.For the same reason above.
A Strong argument can be made for reaction or intuition, as all character need initiative, and skills or defensive rolls.
However given that you can bypass initiative with Edge I don't accept those two ether. Which simply means that very high Edge can and will help all characters.
Which means its is the best Exceptional stat, across the board.
The uses of Edge are broad and having a High Value matters more when your adding dice with it, there is no real downside to it.
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Edge is, I agree, the best 'across the board' stat to use Exceptional Attribute on, but when you have lots of other things clamoring for your karma spending, it can sometimes lose out. I've argued before about whether or not it's better to be consistently faster/better/stronger/tougher or have 'only' a limited value of lucky, and I still prefer the former; a non-Edge Exceptional Attribute will be used every time you use a test involving that attribute, while Exceptional Edge boosts - at most - essentially only eight rolls, simply because Edge is used as a roll rather infrequently. (Unless your GM calls for Edge tests just to see if you luck out on a clue or something, similar things which I've done in the past.)
So while I agree that what you choose that isn't Edge is going to depend on your archetype, I'll express disagreement with your expressed thought that 'Agility is only useful a subset of Archetypes. (sic)', Marcus. If you engage in non-magical non-matrix non-rigged combat at all - which is, except for a very, very small percentage, pretty much every character in SR - then Agility is useful to everyone, though yes, if you're going to make it your EA, you're probably a high-combat character.
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initiation gets you a metamagic though, it doesn't get you to MAG 7 iirc? you'd have to then raise your MAG to 7 using karma. (pg 325, SR5 core)
So the total to get to MAG 7 without it would be initiation which costs 13 karma (and 1 month of downtime), plus 35 karma to raise the attrib. which is 48 total.
As I said, the Initiation wouldn't count for the karma benefit because you're going to initiate anyway, no matter whether your Magic is 6 or 7. So that doesn't count for the karma saving. In other words, you SOLELY save the 7x5=35 karma that I stated, in return for spending 14 and wasting 10 at the very least. Your example with 4 Edge instead of 5 Edge is in fact inferior karmawise: That 5th Edge point is 25 karma, while Exceptional Attribute is 14, so you're wasting the equivalence of 39 karma to save 35.
Sure, for short games it's a nice power boost, but your math is wrong longterm and you're basically crippling the character longterm by going for a short-term benefit. That's not a bargain under any karma-efficient definition.
lol, where is that 10 karma coming from? I don't get it?!
You spend 14 karma and 1 sap, get mag 7.
Without it, to get mag 7 you have to first earn 13 karma, then spend a month downtime to initiate. Then save up 35 karma over months of gameplay to raise 6 to 7.
You still have EDG 4 which is fine, that's four get out of jail free cards.
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The 10+ Karma comes from not spending that SAP on Edge, thereby resulting in a lower Edge than you'd otherwise have. Seems pretty clear to me.
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I should preface this by saying most of my chargen work assumes Missions, which means that the level of opposition is relatively flat. If you're 100+ karma into a progressively harder campaign, different rules apply.
Agility isn't worth it because there there aren't really situations in which you'd need to be one above your augmented maximum. A lightly-cybered (eqv.) shooter can get to 18 dice very easily, which hits 9 vs. 9 defense dice at an acceptable rate (I consider 85% success acceptable when I'm building characters). An optimized shooter (Agi 6(+4), Skill 6, Specialization +2, Smartgun System +2, Reflex Recorder +1) shoots with 21 dice. At this point, you're already risking wasting hits with most guns, so adding an additional die isn't going to give you much.
Edge isn't a bad choice, but I don't think it's good enough to be considered a default choice. Low Edge characters have problems, but once you get to an Edge of 4-6, you generally have enough (unless your GM is really harsh about refreshing it). Combat in Shadowrun is short--if I'm rolling initiative for a third time in a single combat, I automatically start to get worried. If I've build a reasonably competent character, I'll only fail 15% of the time, so maybe I'll use one Edge per combat to offset a bad roll. Another Edge for "dramatic success," another to save me by adding to a defense test, and another to not get feared, and I've only spent 5. For me to get to the point that I'd need the 8th Edge point with a human character, I'd have to be playing in marathon sessions with loads of different combats or in very small groups in which every character was expected to have multiple specialties, thereby increasing the number of "critical" rolls (and roles) each character performs. My Edge 5 Missions character is about 150 karma into things and he's run out of Edge exactly once. Edge is universally useful, but an infinite supply of it isn't needed. The resources needed to make a character Lucky could probably be better spent making that character competent, eliminating the need for him to be Lucky.
Resonance wins because it's the most universally helpful attribute in the game and it's used in tests that are difficult to augment. It beats out Magic because Magic isn't rolled for Drain and magicians have other means available to them (spirits, foci) to add dice to their tests and it's easier to tailor your character around the specializations of Spellcasting than it is the specializations of Resonance-linked skills. Magic is still very good, but certain types of magicians don't really need it. You can have a functional mid-magic character; you can't really have a functional mid-resonance character.
Intuition comes in a distant third because it's hard to boost to its augmented maximum without dedicated mage help and it has universally helpful applications. Perception is one of those "must have" skills, but really, it's here because it adds to your defense tests. As anyone who has tried to shoot a PhysAd with 16+ defense dice can tell you, defense tests matter. Adding one die to a test in which you (generally) win ties can swing things tremendously, especially when you're facing heavier ordnance that's difficult to soak even conceding one net hit.
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Mmm. 13 defense dice normally, 23 at Full, plus 5 / 7 / 9 for Unarmed / Dodge / Parry in close combat ... no, I have no idea what you're talking about. ;)
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The best exceptional attribute is whichever one, if any, fits the concept for your character.
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The best exceptional attribute is whichever one, if any, fits the concept for your character.
I absolutely agree. Exceptional Body is a terrible idea from a mechanical standpoint, but can create a really flavorful character. I assumed a certain CharOp dimension to this question, but really, whatever makes your character cool works.
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The best exceptional attribute is whichever one, if any, fits the concept for your character.
I absolutely agree. Exceptional Body is a terrible idea from a mechanical standpoint, but can create a really flavorful character. I assumed a certain CharOp dimension to this question, but really, whatever makes your character cool works.
Well, actually, for a Human, Exceptional Attribute [Body] could be useful since that would allow said Human to have one more health box on Physical track than any other Human (same goes for Elf). And with putting it with Willpower does the same thing.
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Overall, I rarely would use Ex-Attr myself.
That said, after reading some of the arguments, I'm kinda leaning towards Willpower.
It defends against many spells & adds a stun box. Its Drain for Awakened of all types.
Only downside really is its not used in many skills.
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Just to play Devil's advocate, the argument against Body and to a lesser extent Willpower is that they're trap options. If you have a good build and you make good choices in-game, you can reduce the need for that final box in your condition monitor. Drain can be assisted through metamagic and, even more significantly, metamagic foci. It's remarkably easy to stack soak dice, making the likelihood of needing that final box to survive fairly remote. More to the point, if you're soaking 35+ and that box comes into play, the rest of the team is likely dead and things have already gone off the rails.
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I hear you T.W.O. But as a great teacher once said to me. Always better to be lucky then good.
If you want to go three qualifier in sure. But there nothing wrong with builds designed to be optimal inside its bailey-wick for combat. Sure its good to have a back up firearm/shock stick/what-have-you, but you don't need EA for your back attack skill. In point of fact in that situation Edge would be stronger then EA as it will apply to both your primary attack skill and any backup skills you might have.
I'll certainly agree if you preferred mode of violence is guns and pointy objects EAA is likely to be the best option.
As to EA is only per character comment that's whatever. If you decide that everything relative then sure everything relative. But as I understood the question, in general what EA is the best? I understood it as where will you get best value for points? To me that answer is clear. I agree that making that stick isn't simple mathematically in priority, but once point buy is back things will get easier.
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That's the general consensus, Marcus, yes - it's smarter to be lucky than it's lucky to be smart. But smarts doesn't run out - luck does, and when luck does, it's catastropic. And in SR (and most games), lucky actually has a number where you know roughly how much luck you have. Give me more reliability but some luck any day.