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How do I dissuade combat?

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« on: <03-28-17/2319:19> »
My PCs have focused on excelling in combat. Most everything I throw at them gets chewed up within moments. They've developed a linear mindset of, "What do I need kill to complete the job?" If they would face a non-combat obstacle, the game would grind to a halt as they stumble through, "Well, what do I do?"

Is there any advise yall could offer to help me teach the players how not to talk with their fists?

Leevizer

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« Reply #1 on: <03-29-17/0251:42> »
Short answer: Talk to your players, communicate your wishes with them.

Long answer: Are your players having fun killing everything? On the other hand, are they not having fun when they're not killing or preparing to kill stuff?

If the answer is that they're having fun when killing or preparing to kill stuff, then don't change it. If you as a GM don't like it, then bring it up within the group. Try to come up with a solution that pleases everyone.

If your PCs are killing everything you throw at them, throw better stuff at them? High-level spirits, snipers that get the first shot at them due to being concealed and far away but are then engageable by the PCs... Other Shadowrunners like them, high-level corp fireteams in assault helicopters. Dragons. The possibilities are endless.

Alternatively, make the players work to having to kill stuff. Really put an emphasis on preparing to kill stuff. Tactical planning. Finding out information. Stealthily entering a location and staying there to provide fire support when the rest of the team arrives. Having to do a minor run before the big showdown that doesn't involve killing stuff but is necessary to access the big fighty-killy Shadowrun, such as having to swipe access cards, talk someone into giving access codes or whatnot.

If you want to not talk this out with your players fo whatever reason, then make it -explicitly clear- by Mr. Johnson that their pay will be severely docked (or not even handed to them) if they injure someone/are seen/do killy things during the run. Then again, that will leave everyone asking why Mr. Johnson is hiring this flashy-killy team for a job like that?

What other skills are there within your team, anyway? If your PCs are focused in Combat, do they even have the abilities needed to pull of a stealthy heist or complex negotiation?

farothel

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« Reply #2 on: <03-29-17/0842:19> »
And what is their roleplay history?  If their previous experience is mostly in games like D&D, where killing your way to the loot is expected, they might simply believe that this is the norm.  In that case it might be that Shadowrun isn't the best game for them, unless you keep it as a combat game (it is possible as your team get a reputation for violence, more and more similar jobs will come their way).

another option is to play out the consequences of their actions.  They killed their way to a prototype in an Ares facility?  Well, a couple of Firewatch teams will be looking for them.  Killing employees hurts a corp's bottom line and they are kinda protective of those. :)
"Magic can turn a frog into a prince. Science can turn a frog into a Ph.D. and you still have the frog you started with." Terry Pratchett
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #3 on: <03-29-17/0902:21> »
First of all: Talk with them. Tell them that there are other options

Solving everything through murder should even in the pinkest mohawk games lead to uncomfortable consequences: People out for revenge hire assassins - and not the kind that hold speeches, but those who poison your soycaf. A five year old girl that enters a room calling "Daddy!" only to stop and look at their deceased parent and start crying while calling "Daddy, daddy, what's wrong with you. Get up, come on, why aren't you getting up?".
NPCs telling them straight to the face that they aren't going to hire them since they draw to much heat.
Having them arrested in their downtime and presented with a list of people they murdered and then be asked to defend their actions.
talk think matrix

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Beta

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« Reply #4 on: <03-29-17/0947:00> »
A very energetic thumbs up to the whole point of talking to them about it.  Tell them that SR usually has a lot more than combat and that you're interested in exploring that, but that you want their thoughts on it.  Maybe they are perfectly happy with the game as it is?  (in which case you have a tougher issue).

Beyond that I suggest one specific piece of communication: anything that the players do, the GM can do.  That some of the more brutal tactics are not things you'd throw at them generally, but if they are doing it (large scale use of explosives, sniper nests, killing machine builds), that they can expect the game to mirror that back at them to some degree.  If they are heavily armed, well augmented, and well coordinated, let them deal with elite combat units who are similar, at least some of the time.  After they fail to just shoot their way in and out a couple of times, they might start looking at other options more seriously.

Mirikon

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« Reply #5 on: <03-30-17/1345:34> »
My PCs have focused on excelling in combat. Most everything I throw at them gets chewed up within moments. They've developed a linear mindset of, "What do I need kill to complete the job?" If they would face a non-combat obstacle, the game would grind to a halt as they stumble through, "Well, what do I do?"

Is there any advise yall could offer to help me teach the players how not to talk with their fists?
First, let me agree that talking to them is a very important part of what you should do. Accompany this with movie night. Showcase movies like Blade Runner, The Sting, Sneakers, Oceans Eleven, and others.

Second, there is ALWAYS a bigger fish. Part of the problem seems to be that you're throwing FAIR fights at them. Stop that nonsense immediately. Send them to a Zero Zone, or someplace else where they'll either die, or learn that shooting things isn't always the best option. Nothing breaks a group's arrogance like monowire traps at calf height, heavy machine gun nests, Seven-7, and cyberzombies who have 8 Essence worth of deltaware in them. When they complain after getting their asses handed to them, kindly inform them that there was a simple social encounter that would have gotten them around all that if they hadn't decided to make with the killing.

Third, there are plenty of Johnsons who require low/no body counts on jobs, for the sake of discretion. Make dead bodies a mission failure. And then have a 'cleanup crew' with snipers at the meet to make sure the team understands just how badly they fucked up. Geek the mage in the surprise round. Two snipers with Barrets will make sure that even the best combat mage is dead if caught unawares.

Four, I don't think you're properly playing the consequences of leaving trails of bodies behind them. Bigger fish isn't the only reason that you don't go around with killing as the first option. More bodies means more chances for corp reprisal teams to be sent after you, or other runners, who are willing to use all the dirty tricks the players do, and the ones they haven't thought of. And your jobs will quickly go to ones that are basically suicide runs, like a frontal assault on a zero zone to 'test upgrades'. You'll also have contacts being unwilling to talk to them, choking off supplies of ammo, gear, jobs, and information.

Five, so what if they look around blankly saying, "What do I do?" when faced with something that bullets aren't the answer for? These are those sink or swim, adapt or die moments, where good players will come up with something clever, and bad players ragequit and go home.

Six, others have asked whether the players are having fun, but that's the wrong question here. You're as integral a part of this puzzle as the players are. Are YOU having fun? Because it sounds like you're wanting to play Shadowrun while they're wanting to play World of Warcraft.
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Trillinon

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« Reply #6 on: <03-30-17/2047:24> »
Airburst grenades.

Reaver

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« Reply #7 on: <03-31-17/0041:12> »
Set up more opportunities for other options... and be obvious about it.

Think of your players like infants... and literally hand walk them through the other options other then mass gunfire! After a few hand walk sessions, they'll catch on.

But remember, you have to make the "non-combat" option just as "fun" as the combat.... be that tense social encounters to thrilling covert operations, if they are not finding enjoyment in the other options, then you will never break them out of the "Shoot first, second third" mindset they are in.
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firebug

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« Reply #8 on: <03-31-17/1803:49> »
To add to the choir of "talk to your players", this seems like a situation where your players and you have different desires out of the game.

This isn't just "why are my players always killing the NPCs I put in"?  This is that the players have built the characters for combat; the team is literally built for fighting.  Simply shifting the focus of the campaign may bother several players, as they clearly want a lot of fighting.  If this isn't what you, as GM, were hoping for out of the game, then you need to talk with the players.  Discuss potential shift in mission style, tell them some details, but you don't need to spoil things.  Something like "I'm thinking of having the next mission be a lot less combat-focused, maybe something investigative, or with more social stuff.  Would you guys be up for that?"

If you simply try to change how the missions have gone without telling the players, there's a good chance they will keep acting the same way, because to them it's just doing what works, and if you suddenly make it not work, they may feel like they're getting punished for making what's always been the right choice and get frustrated.

I'd also suggest doing some google searches for how to GM social- or investigative-focused storylines.  One thing a lot of GMs have trouble with is how to handle mysteries.  If the players have to gather clues, always remember the Three Clue Rule and never lock vital information or a clue behind a single roll.
« Last Edit: <03-31-17/1807:28> by firebug »
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Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

farothel

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« Reply #9 on: <04-01-17/0506:51> »
I'd also suggest doing some google searches for how to GM social- or investigative-focused storylines.  One thing a lot of GMs have trouble with is how to handle mysteries.  If the players have to gather clues, always remember the Three Clue Rule and never lock vital information or a clue behind a single roll.

Thanks for this great link.  I'm going to run a Star Trek campaign (a DS9 type thing where the players are on a station mostly) and I had difficulties finding ways to do station plots.  This one (and links in there) actually help a lot.
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Stoneglobe

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« Reply #10 on: <04-04-17/1309:54> »
To add to the choir of "talk to your players", this seems like a situation where your players and you have different desires out of the game.

This isn't just "why are my players always killing the NPCs I put in"?  This is that the players have built the characters for combat; the team is literally built for fighting.  Simply shifting the focus of the campaign may bother several players, as they clearly want a lot of fighting.  If this isn't what you, as GM, were hoping for out of the game, then you need to talk with the players.  Discuss potential shift in mission style, tell them some details, but you don't need to spoil things.  Something like "I'm thinking of having the next mission be a lot less combat-focused, maybe something investigative, or with more social stuff.  Would you guys be up for that?"

If you simply try to change how the missions have gone without telling the players, there's a good chance they will keep acting the same way, because to them it's just doing what works, and if you suddenly make it not work, they may feel like they're getting punished for making what's always been the right choice and get frustrated.

I'd also suggest doing some google searches for how to GM social- or investigative-focused storylines.  One thing a lot of GMs have trouble with is how to handle mysteries.  If the players have to gather clues, always remember the Three Clue Rule and never lock vital information or a clue behind a single roll.

Another thing to bear in mind is that if you're doing a mystery, especially a murder mystery, don't start the game at the beginning but in the middle. By this I mean that if it's going to be a serial killer don't start it at the 1st murder but after the 3rd so that there are several locations where they can go to find the clues, therefore if they fail at one scene there are 2 more for you to place the same clue without them ever realising.

You can achieve the same by starting at the 1st murder and having the 2nd happen whilst they're still at the site of the 1st. This also has the added benefit of putting time pressure on the players, which gives a sense of urgency to their investigations and can leave them feeling like they've been in combat if done correctly, due to escalation of the antagonist.

This can easily be transposed into investigations/mysteries that are not murder related as well.
« Last Edit: <04-04-17/1312:25> by Stoneglobe »
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« Reply #11 on: <04-04-17/2354:01> »
Or, if you are just starting down this path of trying to cure their blood lust and get a little more subversive in their play you can always set them up against a foe that can't be solved with a gun.

Have one of the players (I suggest the most RPish of the group) get a cryptic message over the matrix, or via a "trash" drone that explodes after the message is delivered... Let it hint at some deed in their past, and something coming after them.
Now, the players can choose to ignore this warning or they can investigate.. which means digging through past runs, or encounters that someone would want revenge for....
If they ignore the threat then just have the attacks continue (I found that the warnings also added a good element for where I took this..), but always indirectly.. (A matrix hack of their car, a throw-away drone turned bomb (grenade)) until they investigate.

lead them on a merry chase of social, sneaking, leg work encounters and tests until they finally have enough info to trace the attacks back...

<In my game, the "Master Drone Bomber" was Timmy. The 13 year kid of some nameless security guard of a Corp the team hit, and randomly killed because it was easier then being stealthy. Which left them in a moral dilemma, what to do about Timmy...... And all the other potential Timmy's out there..>







< I have sick, sick players :-[ >

 
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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #12 on: <04-05-17/0851:47> »
So did they recruit Timmy or break his legs and tell him not to do it again?
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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« Reply #13 on: <04-05-17/1124:44> »
So did they recruit Timmy or break his legs and tell him not to do it again?

The team operates on a motto:
"We always get paid"

And they collected their pound of flesh....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #14 on: <04-05-17/1130:16> »
Pity, the kid sounds like he could've been good runner material with a few years of proper training. Of course, they'd have to have given him one hell of a "nothing personal, it's just business" speech to get him to go along with it.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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