[Shinobi Killfist]

what is it about the chargen process as written in the book that is so bad?
what is it that you're trying to achieve by messing with it?

There are multiple issues that bother me about the street level char gen process:
1) Personally, many of my characters I've played tend to have low to mid level resources anyway. (i.e. they are not made any weaker by the rules as they are written)
part of the charm of the street level campaign would be playing character which aren't superbly gifted & highly trained operatives. But mildly talented amateurs or borderline professionals at best. This has nothing to do with how much money they have to spend on toys. (Though they should certainly have less)

2) By only limiting money/gear availability you are squeing the game balance between the different builds. i.e. street sam/rigger/decker become less powerfull while adept/mage/face remain the same.

Street Scum rules, page 354

I missed that in the book. So I came to these rules independently.
But nice to know this was taken into account.

Adi

not sure we're singing from the same hymn sheet here mate, I'm asking what the problem is with the 'Standard Chargen'. I'm not a fan at all of the modified versions, a la 'street scum'.

I'm guessing the problem is while standard chargen works great for standard characters it does not give the feel of street scum, guys who are not quite runners yet.  You can hamfist standard into that with a bunch of guidelines on how you spend your points but the street scum rules do it better.

[Inconnu]

i'll just point out:

If you have Resources A, you wouldn't owe;
B; Owe 1-2 runs
C:3-4
D:5-9
E:10

Or something like that.

[Bushw4cker]

OK, having given this topic a lot of thought lately...Here is what I would do

If your players are making Characters themselves. Let them know that is a Street Level Campaign, and tell them to try to use Resources E, D or C (If your going that high). You can make a Decent any character, without taking Resources A or B. Little harder without taking C. Most players are not going to give you too much trouble if you just tell them that. I would put together a helpful checklist of the bare minimum gear they will need. You don't need Rating 6 commlinks for everyone. Like a basic, with Rating 2 commlink, stim patch, ect.. I find that helps players that are newer to Shadowrun, that want to make their own characters, to have an idea of what gear they will actually need.

You can also make some Archetypes, or use the ones I've posted for Street/Mid Level Campaign if you want . For players using Archetypes I have house rule that I let them transfer Karma from Archetype to new character they make.

I don't like the Street Scum rules or the Street Level Character Creation methods. I understand the arguments about limiting traditionally Resource heavy characters. There is a Tradeoff, your going to have a Rigger/StreetSam/Decker with much higher Skills/Attributes and/or Edge. You'll probably get more Metahumans too...

[Csjarrat]

I know we've discussed it at length in other threads so I'll just state that I disagree with buswhacker's post above. Dropping a and b resources means that deckers, riggers and to some extent; chromed street sams are very hard to build well if its possible at all.
Riggers need VCR + drones + transport, that isn't doable on a 50k budget. Deckers need a good deck, which you can't get without decent resources. That change means you'll only really see technomancers as they don't suffer at all from not having cash.  Likewise you don't get much chrome for 50k, so expect to see combat adepts in their place.

[ZeConster]

I also disagree with bushwhacker's post, not to mention that the OP's entire issue with Street Level was that only nuyen are really restricted. Suggesting the very thing someone's trying to avoid seems like a bad idea.

[RHat]

i'll just point out:

If you have Resources A, you wouldn't owe;
B; Owe 1-2 runs
C:3-4
D:5-9
E:10

Or something like that.

So, what, the guy at Resources E doesn't get paid for the first 10 runs, whereas the guy at Resources A gets paid for all of them?

Bushw4cker: That system creates a fundamental imbalance between Magic characters and Tech characters, as has been discussed before.  A Decker taking Resources C and Skills/Attributes A/B is still a worse decker than he would be with Resources A and Skills/Attributes B/C; the extra skills and attributes would only offer roundedness.  Meanwhile, characters like Mages get to be as as they want.

[Bushw4cker]

I think the BEST way to approach is work with Players. Let them know you're running street level campaign, and hopefully most will make acceptable characters using the standard rules.

I personally think it's best for most characters to take Attributes or Skills A, Just the jump from B to A, is almost 100 Karma (Varies on how you would spend it) worth of Attributes. lets Say you have Priority B. Attributes 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3. and your planning on raising your Attributes after a series of run. It would cost you 100 Karma to get 5 5 5 5 3 3 3 3. (The same you could have gotten if you took A instead of B.) Skills same thing. The jump from C to B and B to A, is Easily 100+ Karma worth of points. 

Every Shadowrun game I've played and GMed, Nuyen is way easier to come by than Karma. (Especially for Creative players) Even the one Adventure for SR5 that is out, I believe the possible rewards are in the Hundreds of thousands. I'll have to check when I get home. How often do Johnsons give Characters Gear/Cyberware/Bioware as rewards? If your using Rewards from pg 375-376 in 5th Ed. Even the simplest run is going to get each player 3k to 6k nuyen. If you do chose to use Street Scum, I'll admit the rules are much better than the Street Level play in character creation chapter.

Decks, Vehicles, Drones, Cyberlimbs can all get Bricked/Destroyed/Mangled. Then your out all that Nuyen you spent on your fancy gear. Maybe it's just me, but I like the idea of Character that succeeds based on his abilities, not on toys.  I'm not saying NO one should ever take Resources High priority. I understand the arguments everyone has made, and I agree it would put off some players that really wanted to play a Rigger with a LAV. I know that for me personally and a lot of the people I play with (Not all I'll admit) taking resources at C, D or E would not deter them from playing the character class they want. They might just have to wait a little longer to get the gear those Alpha Synaptic Booster 2. Most of the Really good stuff you can't even get at character creation anyways.

 I'm curious if anyone has play tested with Decker's to see how much difference Decks really make. Everything I've read, it looks like Decks don't make even close to a difference that they did in SR3. Skills, Edge, Attributes, and choosing the right programs/deck configuration trump what kind of deck you have.

[RHat]

Call it a 1:2000 ratio for Nuyen versus Karma.  And those massive rewards you're talking about are for the whole team, not per-runner.  Which means, incidentally, that that B to A jump in Resources is actually worth approaching 100 Karma as well.

Bricked and disabled stuff can be repaired.

A Decker quite simply cannot ever be better than his deck.

It's not that you can't build a Decker at C Resources; it's that you'll be building a decker that's markedly less powerful as compared to the Mage who gets unrestricted character generation.  Asymmetrical restrictions are a very bad thing.

[Namikaze]

Bush, I think at this point you're defending a point simply to defend it.  There's really no good rationale behind what you're describing, as every option you've put forth has been refuted so far.  You are correct: working with the players is the best option.  Assuming these are veteran players of Shadowrun you might have a good shot at getting what you want.  But if these are new players to Shadowrun, the last thing they need is to have major changes to the character creation process.

[Inconnu]

There could always be lending occurring in the runs--A johnson allocating equipment which he expects returned(minus ammo) and he'll dock your pay for anything you lose...

[Kanly]

If you get the equipment anyway, not by owning, but by lending, then what is the point of playing street'?

Restricting just resources and nothing else doesn't work.

Restricting Resources and Magic both would work better (if the players understand that they really will be competent with the cheapest deck, scrap-built rcc and used cyberarm, dont need sin's...)

[Inconnu]

If you get the equipment anyway, not by owning, but by lending, then what is the point of playing street'?

Restricting just resources and nothing else doesn't work.

Restricting Resources and Magic both would work better (if the players understand that they really will be competent with the cheapest deck, scrap-built rcc and used cyberarm, dont need sin's...)

Instead of getting luck-of-the-draw equipment, resource A gets you your custom equipment, cyberware, etc.

[RHat]

Except it wouldn't be "luck of the draw" - in setting or out.