Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: PiXeL01 on <01-31-18/1936:01>
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As I was in the process of updating some of my compilations I noticed something about the Norse tradition. In Shadow Spells it is listed as having the drain stat of Logic while Forbidden Arcane turns that into Charisma.
Which is it?
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If I recall, it was Logic in 4th edition as well, with the reasoning being that magic in Norse is done via memorization of their runic alphabet. I'd go with Shadow Spells over Forbidden Arcana as well, because FA is an unreasonably flawed product that didn't receive enough analysis before completion.
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Guess we can add Druidic magic to the list of Charisma Traditions due to Forbidden Arcana ...
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Guess we can add Druidic magic to the list of Charisma Traditions due to Forbidden Arcana ...
Forbidden Arcana's entire tradition section disgusts me. Please don't use anything from it, save for maybe the Olympian tradition. I've combed it for errata and basically every tradition (whether new or "updated") is full of utterly baffling decisions, random and pointless modifiers, awful Mary Sue shit, or just being unbalanced (both too powerful and too weak) for no reason at all.
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Some things needed the boost, Drake's have a history of being god-awful but Magic as a drain resisting stat is very interesting. And the romani tradition's willpower *2 for drain, while op currently, could have been balanced if they had hit it's magic a bit harder. (I would have liked to have seen them as only aspected magicians, which yes would have made it far and away the best for aspected magicians but it would have made interesting character choices.)
Basically I think the book has amazing ideas and terrible ideas but almost universally terrible mechanics.
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In theory both logic and charisma should be applicable to choose as a drain stat in regards to norse magic. The ancient norse had several types of magic one being Galdr which is the one focused on memorization, chants and incantations, so in essence fairly hermetic in its practice, the other being Seidr which was more akin to a shamanic tradition and was mainly practiced by women, while male prationers of Seidr did exist it was considered an unmanly practice, though Odin,the chief male God of the norse pantheon practised it on numerous occasions.
So depending on whether you want your norse magician to be a practioner of Galdr or Seidr, you could choose whether you wanted to use logic or charisma, just to have a little more flair and actual realism to the tradition.
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I guess the same distinction can be made with the two Druid traditions. One the intuitive English and the other Charismatic Celtic. Not that I know much about either in reality.
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With a lot of RL traditions in fact. It's a bit funny that they actually bothered to do it with the Wicca tradition but not with others.
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With a lot of RL traditions in fact. It's a bit funny that they actually bothered to do it with the Wicca tradition but not with others.
It is weird. It's really the kind of thing I feel like you need to go all-or-nothing in... The thing is, if you do it too much, it basically makes the mechanics of a tradition feel completely arbitrary, which is something Forbidden Arcana did that I hate. It's one thing to expand upon a tradition with information about the real-world religion it's based on, and to bring that into Shadowrun to show how varied actual religion is and was. But it's another to basically make every aspect of it into a free pick-and-mix that completely ruins the purpose and benefit of connecting Shadowrun magic to real world religion in the first place. I'm sure to some people it sounds cool, but I don't like that this book would let someone play a Olympian-Voodoo Magician summoning possession spirits of Greek monsters and also this other Christian spirit they just figured out how to do, plus these other two Hermetic elementals they got from taking Chain Breaker. Then later they take Paradigm Shift into an Islamic-Wiccan.
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More and more I wish they had come up with this “Universal Magic Theory” back in SR3. By now it has turned into make your own tradition. Just look at the Planar Entity Mentor Spirit and Draconic Magic Tradition.
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Should have just stuck with the SR2 version. Two paths that’s it
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Draconic Magic is unacceptable... Drakes exist so that players can be draconic without it being overpowered, because obviously you couldn't just play a dragon without it being stupid. Draconic magic is just some idiot going "Well, dragons are super OP and like magic-incarnate, right? So it makes sense for them to have a tradition that's super OP too!" End thought. No thoughts about players actually using it, at all. Can summon every spirit type and they all are applicable to every category of spell, can use rituals for free, don't need magic lodge materials, and their Drain scales on their Magic rating... Oh but they can't have a mentor spirit and can't join magical groups or get help initiating. Sadface. That someone added a box about playing one as a PC but never stopped to think that it was too powerful upsets me a lot.
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But but the drawback is you NEED to be under the boot of a dragon...
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I totally get that most people want it to be fairly straightforward, it's different for me and in the games I'm a part of both as gm and player since traditions play a major part in those games, but if every tradition had to be expanded upon in such a way I think a lot of people would take one look and go "nah can't be bothered to read a novel to pick a tradition, I'll just be a mage" and that would be a shame, traditions brings flavour to the game and you can always research them some more yourself if you want to.
I totally agree about the draconic tradition. The funny thing is, Senko actually made a thread about using magic as a drain stat way before FA came out as a thought experiment and literally everyone responded with "nonononono it will make magicians totally op if you do that " a few months later we get just that. ......I mean if it's because they wanted to make drakes a bit better there were plenty of ways to do that without making a game breakingly powerful tradition.
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Good thing the Strain I infected cannot be drakes, due I did see a thread about that not long ago
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Draconic Magic is unacceptable... Drakes exist so that players can be draconic without it being overpowered, because obviously you couldn't just play a dragon without it being stupid. Draconic magic is just some idiot going "Well, dragons are super OP and like magic-incarnate, right? So it makes sense for them to have a tradition that's super OP too!" End thought. No thoughts about players actually using it, at all. Can summon every spirit type and they all are applicable to every category of spell, can use rituals for free, don't need magic lodge materials, and their Drain scales on their Magic rating... Oh but they can't have a mentor spirit and can't join magical groups or get help initiating. Sadface. That someone added a box about playing one as a PC but never stopped to think that it was too powerful upsets me a lot.
Because it really isn't until you get to stupid amounts of karma. It isn't hard to have an 11 drain resistance on a human to start, a Drake can get 12 an elf can get 13. And everyone can scale drain resistance with centering, Drake's just get it twice.
For summoning every type of spirit (I read that to mean the standard + the 3 new ones in Street Grimoire) it's nice but your PC is probably already summoning the best one or two anyways, so it is flexibility rather than power.
I'll admit I rarely even think about what spirits are on what category so those aren't huge deals to me. And a lodge is a few thousand Nuyen and really, a mage probably wants one anyways, if only as a keep out sign.
And the cost of that is being a Drake. Drake's being one of the most under powered things in Shadowrun.
Now as your karma climbs and being a Drake costs less percentage of your total karma, draconic magic starts being a better deal. But at low power levels? Not the worst thing ever.
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I don't follow your logic-- "It isn't until you get stupid amounts of karma" isn't really okay. How about something that just doesn't? Or at least does so at the same pace as the rest of the game? Drakes need a fix if they're underpowered. Offering them an OP tradition is not the way to make them better. Even if you feel like everything the Draconic tradition offers isn't really that big of a boost in terms of game balance, it still just shouldn't be that way. Traditions are meant to present limited options in spirits. Also, getting Centering twice is pretty powerful. It is alternatively akin to getting a free metamagic (as you could just never invest in Centering), which is also pretty damn powerful. I'll admit that having a Draconic Tradition mage won't split your first run in half and skullfuck your plot like I implied it would. But it's still just blatantly offers much more than normal traditions do. Yes, it's for Drakes only, but like I said... If you think Drakes are underpowered, then the Drake quality and mechanics are what should change.
Tell you what. I personally haven't invested much into how Drakes work, but if you send me a PM with the aspects of Drake you think most stand out as being underpowered/problematic/unacceptable and any suggestions you have, I'll take those, add my own opinions and suggestions, and bring that up with the rest of the errata team. Sound good?
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That sounds amazing, but let me take a couple days getting to you so I can have it coherent.
And yes magic as a drain stat is powerful, but centering is a fair metamagic (as in not busted) and available for 13 karma. Would I pay 13 karma to change my drain stat to magic? I don't know. It would be an interesting option for a positive quality.
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But changing your drain attribute to Magic would mean a power focus would apply there too, meaning it would be too powerful.
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The Romani drain attribute is also confusing me a little. Who would honestly suggest that?
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Just don't forget that as a GM anything can be disallowed, and if you've got a good reason you really shouldn't get that much grumbling from your players. If you think drakes and their magic tradition is OP, then deny it to your players.
Heck, I know a guy that does shadowrun games set in the 50's, and Dunkelzahn never runs for POTUCAS in his stories.
And yes, if a practitioner of the draconic tradition has a power focus, it double taps into your drain. First at where Stun becomes Physical, and then again in dice to resist it.
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But changing your drain attribute to Magic would mean a power focus would apply there too, meaning it would be too powerful.
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The Romani drain attribute is also confusing me a little. Who would honestly suggest that?
I had not thought about power foci. That is a problem.
And what confuses you about will x2 for drain? For aspected magicians, that would be a power boost that might actually make them a legitimate choice.
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Will + Will is also a bad design, if only because it's just better than using two attributes. Willpower is already a pretty great attribute. Logic is rarely that useful for non-hackers, so especially compared to that, being able to focus on just Willpower is strong. Especially when you consider that "Hey, using Increase Attribute [Willpower] means I get twice the bonus to my drain pool!" I regularly make spellcasters with 4 Will just so I can get a F4 Sustaining Focus or R4 Focused Concentration and always sustain that spell, because 8 Will is great, and so is +4 drain. But a Romani Dwarf taking the -2 to sustain a F7 Increase Attribute spell to give themselves 11 Will and 22 Drain Resist out the door is frightening. And that's before you even consider the Quickening metamagic.
Aspected Magicians got a lot of love in Forbidden Arcana, one of the few things I can say I like. Dedicated Spellcaster (or whatever it's called) is great, though while it "fixes" the lack of spells aspected magicians get in chargen, it shouldn't be required for the archetype to work. Unfortunately, Dedicated Conjurer is not really strong, it just breaks lore by granting access to more spirit types, which I dislike, and even though they gave Enchanter its own priority, they still didn't give it any preparations to start with so I'm pretty sure it's reasonable for me to say "fuck you" to that one. The one thing people complained about and everybody knew was annoying since the CRB came out, and they set themselves a place to fix it, and then just didn't.
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Will + Will is also a bad design, if only because it's just better than using two attributes. Willpower is already a pretty great attribute. Logic is rarely that useful for non-hackers, so especially compared to that, being able to focus on just Willpower is strong. Especially when you consider that "Hey, using Increase Attribute [Willpower] means I get twice the bonus to my drain pool!" I regularly make spellcasters with 4 Will just so I can get a F4 Sustaining Focus or R4 Focused Concentration and always sustain that spell, because 8 Will is great, and so is +4 drain. But a Romani Dwarf taking the -2 to sustain a F7 Increase Attribute spell to give themselves 11 Will and 22 Drain Resist out the door is frightening. And that's before you even consider the Quickening metamagic.
In general, mages are still going to want intuition, intuition is probably a better attribute than will, since it covers initiative and perception. Yes, you can bump a single attribute instead of two attributes and get double the drain resistance, and that's nice, but keep in mind, that's 1.333 successes on drain rolls and that's really all it is. But the moment either mage steps into a level 1 background count his spells are worthless and level 1 background counts are everywhere.
Aspected Magicians got a lot of love in Forbidden Arcana, one of the few things I can say I like. Dedicated Spellcaster (or whatever it's called) is great, though while it "fixes" the lack of spells aspected magicians get in chargen, it shouldn't be required for the archetype to work. Unfortunately, Dedicated Conjurer is not really strong, it just breaks lore by granting access to more spirit types, which I dislike, and even though they gave Enchanter its own priority, they still didn't give it any preparations to start with so I'm pretty sure it's reasonable for me to say "fuck you" to that one. The one thing people complained about and everybody knew was annoying since the CRB came out, and they set themselves a place to fix it, and then just didn't.
I disagree that aspected magicians are fixed. An aspected magician, that casts spells, can spend 5 karma to get fewer spells than a regular mage gets for free with their magic of 6. They are still straight up weaker, given that the regular mage has conjuring, enchanting, and astral projection. IMO aspected magicians shouldn't be straight up worse than standard magicians, even with a fix.
But let's imagine that the dwarf aspected magician is running along side the full magician. The aspected magician, because he has 2x willpower to deal with drain, can cast more than the standard magician. The standard magician, however, has other tricks he can rely on. Suddenly one isn't astoundingly better than the other, they're both good, they're just good in different ways.
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Oh I definitely meant to imply that they weren't really fixed (hence the quotation marks). There's really no reason for Aspected Magicians to get less of anything than normal magicians when they're already giving up two skill groups and astral projection.
That 22 Drain Resist on a full magician is more what I was taking about. 1.3333 more hits on average means a higher point of Force on every spell they cast, which seems pretty great to me. If I told me that I could pick a free option as a Street Samurai that added +1 DV and -1 AP to every gun I fired, and it cost me nothing, I'd say that's unbalanced.
Though the theoretical dwarf gypsy wouldn't have only 4 higher Drain Resist; that'd be if their LOG/INT/CHA could also be a 7. Keep in mind you can't have more than one attribute at your metatype cap at character creation, too. So that dwarf gypsy will have at least 6 higher drain resist than someone with 7 WIL and 5 in their other mental attribute. And this is didn't come at a significant cost over other traditions, they can just cast every spell at about 2 higher Force.
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That 22 Drain Resist on a full magician is more what I was taking about. 1.3333 more hits on average means a higher point of Force on every spell they cast, which seems pretty great to me. If I told me that I could pick a free option as a Street Samurai that added +1 DV and -1 AP to every gun I fired, and it cost me nothing, I'd say that's unbalanced.
You can, homemade ammo. But what does that really get you, the vast majority of enemies are either going down in the first hit either way or taking two hits to go down either way. It makes a little bit of a difference. Beyond that, since we are talking about my idea, it does cost you something, it costs you the ability to summon spirits, to enchant items, and to astrally project. That's a pretty big cost.
Though the theoretical dwarf gypsy wouldn't have only 4 higher Drain Resist; that'd be if their LOG/INT/CHA could also be a 7. Keep in mind you can't have more than one attribute at your metatype cap at character creation, too. So that dwarf gypsy will have at least 6 higher drain resist than someone with 7 WIL and 5 in their other mental attribute. And this is didn't come at a significant cost over other traditions, they can just cast every spell at about 2 higher Force.
Not really though it looks that way on paper, doesn't it. In practice, the dwarf is probably going to go 6/6 with intuition and can, if it so chooses, have a spirit of man cast increase spells on it, so it gets a 20 to your 22, but it has a significantly higher initiative, and you are sustaining a spell they are not. (Though they are using 2 services off a bound spirit.)
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We're talking about the Romani Tradition's Will + Will in comparison to Will + Log/Int/Cha of other traditions, not being Aspected, when we discuss 22 Drain Dice. That's where I'm coming from, nothing about Romani restricts you to be Aspected. Why would I say that a single tradition that has no impact on the power of Aspected Magicians compared to Full Magicians makes Aspected Magicians more powerful than they should be?
Hand loaded ammo, in comparison, requires a lot of time to renew the supply (as it isn't endless), only gives -1 AP or +1 DV, and does actually increase the cost of the ammo. Otherwise though, you're right, it's comparably the same thing for a different archetype.
I feel like it's not a forgone conclusion that that every magician will max Intuition and have a Spirit of Man sustain Increase Attribute spells, but if that's where you're coming from then I don't really have a counter-argument. Not much I could say against that logic.
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Basically what firebugs said about the Romani tradition. Having the same attribute used twice in the equation means that all costs to improve the result are cut in half and benefits are doubled. No other tradition can do this. Isn’t that a problem?
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Plus it just doesn't fit with the fluff about the tradition as its written. The Romani tradition is mentioned several times as being nature oriented and akin to shamanism. ...ok,ok, that's cool i can dig that, so naturally they would be using charisma as second drain attribute, yeah ok. ...gypsies. ...Charisma. ..yeah that works, wait, what now? Willpower times two, where did that come from? Errrrr. ........
I mean with the draconic tradition I can see the reasoning behind it, eventhough I still consider it a mistake, but with the Romani tradition it just seems special for specials sake.
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I'm actually convinced it was a typo. Someone, burnt-out after typing for hours straight, mindlessly adds "Will + Will" without realizing it. It's just unfortunately got weird, game-play affecting results, unlike other, more amusing typos.
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I'm actually convinced it was a typo. Someone, burnt-out after typing for hours straight, mindlessly adds "Will + Will" without realizing it. It's just unfortunately got weird, game-play affecting results, unlike other, more amusing typos.
I doubt it. it's a really bad tradition other than double will.
And I'm sorry I wasn't clearer earlier, I think double will is acceptable for aspected characters, not full mages
I think as a house rule it gives aspected mages something that makes them at least worth considering.
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Unfortunately, it being bad otherwise doesn't make me think it must not be a typo. Several of the other traditions are just objectively bad, like any of the Norse variant Awakened, or Norse Adepts, if you try to follow Forbidden Arcana.
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Hey guys.
On the note of the traditions, Romani can't use heath spells, can't own property that isn't mobile and can't stay in the same location for any extended period. SR isn't a balanced game in capabilities, but rather through consequences.
There are plenty of stuff that can make a killer mage. Be an aspected, drake, hedge mage, mentor's masked careful casting monster. But be prepared to be immediately identifiable, hunted, feared and unable to use your spells in large amounts of environments.
I am however interested in this:
But changing your drain attribute to Magic would mean a power focus would apply there too, meaning it would be too powerful.
I think this wasn't clarified well in the books, but a power foci increases magic generically. I always thought this was for application of dice pool. If this really raised magic for the purposes of calculating the magic limit for force nobody would focus on increasing magic and rather just drain resistance.
This would open a cool possibility of an artificer who uses foci to both cast spells and resist... but yeah I don't believe it actually increases magic actual.
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It's that Power Foci add to any dice pool that includes your MAG attribute; if you resisted Drain with WIL + MAG, that would be included.
Romani's having to move around realistically just means you have to take the Traveler lifestyle (in Run Faster), but I admit their removal of health-spells make them almost unplayable. I wouldn't say it makes it "balanced" for them to have WIL + WIL; I would say it is just kind of awful and makes me feel their design is still kind of crap. However, it also specifies "traditionalist" Romani, so it's also a toss-up if that's all of them or not as the book doesn't explain what the "traditionalist" rules on some of the traditions are.
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Fair points
I play a romani tradition and really enjoy it. For practical purposes he can't maintain a mobile lifestyle and it severely impedes the legwork phase when runners might need to be staking out and I'm there insisting on a shower lol (they have that bathing requirement).
So ultimately what he does is fall on and off the path of his magic (he isn't solely reliant on it for his running).
The way I see it, magic isn't really designed to stand on it's own. Without some masking and flexiable casting metas under your belt and some serious drain resistance you won't be casting all day. You'll still be relying on technological senses and a good old gun. The traditions allow you to make a character first and a mage second. So a charisma based tradition allows mage faces. Logic makes great decker support and intuition makes fantastic combat mages.
Drakes are just weird and I agree with the text that you really have to pass it by your GM whether you can use it. On that note however, Drakes really only get their awesome abilities when transformed, and if in meta form the benefits are less. The huge karma cost just to use magic as a drains stat and using power foci to cast really isn't cheaper than just getting centering foci.
Additionally, it's easier to get your drain attributes up through drugs or augments, but raising magic significantly beyond what other attributes have (whilst the other attributes feed into skills that magic doesn't) is harder.
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You're probably very inexperienced playing an Awakened character, then. While knowing how to use a gun is important, it's very easy to cast spells the entire run with only minimal drain (or no drain) by picking lower-Force spells. If someone has 9+ Drain Resist dice, that's 3 hits on average. That's a F6 Clout (or any other single-target LOS Indirect Combat Spell), or F8 if you learn it Limited. Nine is also quite low for Drain Resist; usually I see if at 11 or above, especially when you combine it with sustained Increase Attribute spells. So I'm afraid you're wrong about magic not standing on its own; when you take into account doing all of this while having one or more (via Binding) spirits backing you up, it becomes clear why "Geek The Mage" is still a street motto. Someone who can cast Health spells can usually have 14+ dice (6 LOG/INT/CHA, 4 WIL, Increase Willpower F4) and then easily get away with F7+ combat spells every turn, or even higher if they learn one as Limited. If you're concerned about losing your casting fetish, you can learn the same (or a different) spell in normal, non-limited format.
If you've made a Logic magician and have the leftover skillpoints and nuyen to be anything resembling a decker, you probably can't rely on magic because you simply chose not to invest in it.
Also, the vast majority of magician characters are not expect to regularly lose access to their magical abilities. You do reminds me that the tradition limitations like that in Forbidden Arcana do nothing to say what happens if you break them. Though the only one you can really have forced upon you would be "staying in one place for more than a week", which is actually too vague to mean anything. Is the "same place" a street? A house? A room? The entire sprawl? The district? It's dumb.
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Fair enough (though not very nicely put). Our group is largely magic low and yes spirits can be a game changer.
Anyway what is this "Limited" you mentioned? Is that a fetish?
And yeah, it doesn't state what happens if you fail your tradition's requirements, but like anything, if you don't roleplay the consequences then the powerful choices are just plain better.
Drakes being the obvious target.
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Sorry if I came across as rude. I get a little defensive if I feel like someone who's uninformed adds to a conversation and makes a mistake... But it's better to try and be involved and make mistakes and ask questions than to just lurk and be shy, so I respect that and hope you can accept my apology. The attitude was uncalled for.
"Limited" is an option for spells using the rules for a fetish on page 212 of Street Grimoire. It's a bit unclear, but it's been a mechanic in previous editions so I can at least explain how it's supposed to work. If you buy a fetish (2000 nuyen) you can learn a spell as "Limited", where you are only able to cast the spell while the fetish (which can be a variety of objects, similar to foci) is on your person somewhere. In exchange, the spell's Drain Value is reduced by 2 (with the minimum DV still being 2). So single target LOS combat spells like Clout and Lightning Bolt go from F-3 to F-5, making them a huge amount more powerful and even easier to spam. The limited-version of the spell is its own spell, and you can learn a non-limited version of the spell as well if you want to (but it costs just as much karma and money as if you didn't know the spell at all). It's not clear, but each Limited spell needs its own fetish-- It's more expensive than just one fetish for as many Limited as you like, but this way it's way harder to disable you just by stealing something from you.
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Hey not a problem.
Ahhh, so it is the fetish rules. I love those. Unlike foci they can be replaced. But again that's where the consequences element of the game's balancing occurs. It's a fantastic option for reducing drain, however you'll have to smuggle them into events.
I don't recall, but they aren't actually magical are they? Unlike foci which have their own presence on the astral (when active) foci are just a thing that is related to your tradition and is the trade off of being more conspicuous in exchange for power.
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Fetish are explicitly magical, and have some amount of orichalcum in them like reagents do (as you need radical reagents to make one). So they would be as noticable on the astral as reagents are. Which I believe is enough to be identifiable with Astral Perception, but not enough to physically interact with mana barriers like foci can.
If you learn the spell normally as well, then you can just be forced to use lower-Force castings of the spell if you lose your fetish (or just can't risk smuggling it in with you), so you can make sure the drawback doesn't screw you.
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But they don't take your astral signature and leave trails do they?
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No, they just appear as having a magical nature but doesn’t take on your aura at all, nor are they magical enough to have an active aura and interact with astral space. You can see them as an amplifier you channel mana through that works when you punch in the right formula.