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Suppressive Fire

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Black

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« Reply #75 on: <12-29-11/2135:23> »
Shadowrun is a game of grim gritty violence in a dystopian future. You survive in this future by being stronger, faster, better. You will face numerical odds of 5 to 1, 10 to 1. Characters already need to optimize to survive if I want to make it so. I am a game master. What my rules do due is prevent magical changes in rate of fire due to initiative passes increasing or decreasing, or allowing a character with a single initiative pass to suppress an area for an entire combat turn. Sine characters usually have more initiative passes I don't see how I am screwing them. Would you be kind enough to explain it to me?

Actually, I think every campaign may different here.  'Grim gritty violence' does not mean that characters optimise to survive.  Just like not every punk out there has multiple IP.   Maybe the Sam or the PhysAdept might have multiple passes, but the majority of the team may not.  If the characters are all combat monsters, then their may be reduced room for the detective, the inflitrator etc.  Less room for stories which not involve maximum volience.  Also, if everyone has multiple IP, then what sort of killers are you sending against them?
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WareWolf

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« Reply #76 on: <12-29-11/2215:49> »
 
Shadowrun is a game of grim gritty violence in a dystopian future. You survive in this future by being stronger, faster, better. You will face numerical odds of 5 to 1, 10 to 1. Characters already need to optimize to survive if I want to make it so. I am a game master. What my rules do due is prevent magical changes in rate of fire due to initiative passes increasing or decreasing, or allowing a character with a single initiative pass to suppress an area for an entire combat turn. Sine characters usually have more initiative passes I don't see how I am screwing them. Would you be kind enough to explain it to me?

Actually, I think every campaign may different here.  'Grim gritty violence' does not mean that characters optimise to survive.  Just like not every punk out there has multiple IP.   Maybe the Sam or the PhysAdept might have multiple passes, but the majority of the team may not.  If the characters are all combat monsters, then their may be reduced room for the detective, the inflitrator etc.  Less room for stories which not involve maximum volience.  Also, if everyone has multiple IP, then what sort of killers are you sending against them?

Gangers, sec guards, samurai, spirits, fill in the blank. Some have more than one IP, most don't. I use numbers and situation to balance combat encounters. As far as killers go I build them to suit the situation.

Falconer

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« Reply #77 on: <12-29-11/2321:41> »
Quite frankly.  I'm firmly of the opinion that a lot of corps will just issue a cheap shot of a combat drug.  You're not going to be spending even 11k for wired-1 on a lot of these guys.

Bringing their guards up to 2 passes for a short time... (until HTR can show up)... lets face it rent-a-cops are basically just triplines and delaying mechanisms.


You might see some reusable kit like vision enhancement smartlinked glasses/goggles or the like.  All the kind of stuff you can rip off one stiff and hand off to the next shift.

Sipowitz

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« Reply #78 on: <12-30-11/0039:45> »
Since characters usually have more initiative passes I don't see how I am screwing them. Would you be kind enough to explain it to me?
Usually is not every.  You also are hurting your own npcs, all for an action that you or your players may use, it's not like suppressive fire is a go to action.  I wonder if your group uses the action a lot and you are trying to mitigate the usage of it?

WareWolf

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« Reply #79 on: <12-30-11/0108:38> »
Since characters usually have more initiative passes I don't see how I am screwing them. Would you be kind enough to explain it to me?
Usually is not every.  You also are hurting your own npcs, all for an action that you or your players may use, it's not like suppressive fire is a go to action.  I wonder if your group uses the action a lot and you are trying to mitigate the usage of it?

Actually my group has never used suppressive fire. I am actually neutral on the subject from a rules exposure stand point. I just have an issue from a logic stand point that the bullets fired by a slower character will suppress an area longer than the bullets fired by a wired adept or street samurai. It makes no logical sense to me. I could see me using suppressive fire under my current system or RAW by sec guards. But I would use suppressive fire in that circumstance under either system.

Sichr

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« Reply #80 on: <12-30-11/0531:35> »
Well...supressive fire layed down by 1IP character will last 3 seconds. Like you say, no reason for supressive fire layed down by 5IP character lasts less. For me the reason to saz that lazing down supressive fire consumes number of actions character posess for each turn. If the 5IP chartacter begin to spraz area with supressive fire on his 3rd IP, his first available action follows at 3rd IP next turn...

JustADude

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« Reply #81 on: <12-30-11/0551:16> »
Actually my group has never used suppressive fire. I am actually neutral on the subject from a rules exposure stand point. I just have an issue from a logic stand point that the bullets fired by a slower character will suppress an area longer than the bullets fired by a wired adept or street samurai. It makes no logical sense to me. I could see me using suppressive fire under my current system or RAW by sec guards. But I would use suppressive fire in that circumstance under either system.

Given how crappy you've made it, I really don't wonder why your group never uses Suppressive Fire. In real world combat situations, which you should bloody well care about because that's what the combat system is trying to model, suppression is highly effective at making people hit the dirt and keep their heads down. The game version needs to be buffed up, not made even more useless.

The problem is NOT that Low IP characters somehow magically are able to suppress longer than they should, because it actually takes 2-3 seconds to fire 20 bullets, even just holding the trigger down and dumping ammo. The PROBLEM is that High IP characters are required to waste an extra 60 ammo a round to do what should only take 20. Having a 1 IP character spray 20 bullets in 0.75 seconds just makes the situation even less balanced and more unrealistic.

Also, I really don't appreciate being accused of Hyperbole and being given a point of negative rep because I bring up a valid point. Some of us actually DO care about the science and physics of our games, thank you very much, and would appreciate attempts to find a stream-lined way to make the game fit better with reality rather than have some jackass who thinks he knows everything about game design trying to tell us that the real world doesn't matter and that the wonderful, fantastic kingdom of Balance in the land of make-believe will make everything all better if we just drink the magic kool-aid.
« Last Edit: <12-30-11/0734:23> by JustADude »
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FastJack

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« Reply #82 on: <12-30-11/0842:05> »
There is no valid reason when arguing a point to resort to name-calling. JustADude, swallow the pride, accept that not everyone plays the same as you and move on. Same goes for you WareWolf, you're not entirely innocent as well. If cooler heads do not prevail, we will be heading to a lock and some warnings.

WareWolf

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« Reply #83 on: <12-30-11/1314:53> »
Actually my group has never used suppressive fire. I am actually neutral on the subject from a rules exposure stand point. I just have an issue from a logic stand point that the bullets fired by a slower character will suppress an area longer than the bullets fired by a wired adept or street samurai. It makes no logical sense to me. I could see me using suppressive fire under my current system or RAW by sec guards. But I would use suppressive fire in that circumstance under either system.

Given how crappy you've made it, I really don't wonder why your group never uses Suppressive Fire. In real world combat situations, which you should bloody well care about because that's what the combat system is trying to model, suppression is highly effective at making people hit the dirt and keep their heads down. The game version needs to be buffed up, not made even more useless.

The problem is NOT that Low IP characters somehow magically are able to suppress longer than they should, because it actually takes 2-3 seconds to fire 20 bullets, even just holding the trigger down and dumping ammo. The PROBLEM is that High IP characters are required to waste an extra 60 ammo a round to do what should only take 20. Having a 1 IP character spray 20 bullets in 0.75 seconds just makes the situation even less balanced and more unrealistic.

Also, I really don't appreciate being accused of Hyperbole and being given a point of negative rep because I bring up a valid point. Some of us actually DO care about the science and physics of our games, thank you very much, and would appreciate attempts to find a stream-lined way to make the game fit better with reality rather than have some jackass who thinks he knows everything about game design trying to tell us that the real world doesn't matter and that the wonderful, fantastic kingdom of Balance in the land of make-believe will make everything all better if we just drink the magic kool-aid.

To be honest I gave you a point of negative rep after the tone of your response including inflammatory accusations about my "screwing my players" as well as the fact I received a point of negative rep right after you replied to my comment. I cannot be sure it was you, but if it was, do you really think we should go around smiting each other just for disagreeing? I can handle people disagreeing with me, but I do not believe your tone was appropriate.

As far as anyone "drinking the Kool-aid" I offered my rule out there as a simple adjudication to handle a logical discrepancy in the rules. My rules adjudications are proposed past a CO-GM who debates them with and then we post the ideas up to the players to give feedback. I post these adjudications on these forums so that others may have inspiration and guidance, should they choose to use it, in forming the rules for their table. Perhaps I should post things like this under House Rules but I find that navigating that section without any sort of index more difficult than just posting in active topics. Since it is fairly certain I will never Game Master for you or your group, nor will you Game master for me and mine, that it is possible to agree to disagree
« Last Edit: <12-30-11/1340:40> by WareWolf »

Glorthoron

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« Reply #84 on: <12-30-11/1453:55> »
To be honest I gave you a point of negative rep after the tone of your response including inflammatory accusations about my "screwing my players" as well as the fact I received a point of negative rep right after you replied to my comment. I cannot be sure it was you, but if it was, do you really think we should go around smiting each other just for disagreeing? I can handle people disagreeing with me, but I do not believe your tone was appropriate.

Why do you think my rep is down now?  because I insult people?  No, some folks childishly (and I will not name names) smite people simply because they don't agree with them.  I feel sorry for the people playing in their games.

Of course, if someone really wants to smite me and lower my rep, they can just email me at idontgiver@sass.com.
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JustADude

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« Reply #85 on: <12-30-11/1559:52> »
There is no valid reason when arguing a point to resort to name-calling. JustADude, swallow the pride, accept that not everyone plays the same as you and move on. Same goes for you WareWolf, you're not entirely innocent as well. If cooler heads do not prevail, we will be heading to a lock and some warnings.

*deep breath*

Sorry, having people go "What you said doesn't matter, because I know better than you" and then ignore my actual point, which is what I got from his reply, really tweaks me. Not trying to keep the argument going, just explaining myself.

And I would still like to hear Ware's logic for why he decided further Nerfing the already-underperforming SF was the way to go, rather thanmaking it better for High-IP characters, which he has failed to actually cover so far in any of his responses.
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"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
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FastJack

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« Reply #86 on: <12-30-11/1634:56> »
Hence why I issued a public notice on BOTH parties to step back, take a deep breath and continue in cooler, less aggressive dialogue. And so far, I'm not seeing either party willing to do this. Now, I'm pretty reasonable as far as Moderators go, but this is getting on my last nerve here. Neither of you have crossed the line in the sand that I put out there, so the thread's open for now and no official warnings are coming.

In fact, Ware's offered an olive branch that he's willing to agree that you disagree with him and let it drop. His logic is his own on the matter, just as your logic is your own. I HIGHLY recommend you both take this discussion to private messages in the future. If neither of you can do that, the thread will be locked before you can say "Ban-hammer".