[nifoc]

I don't really think that being unable to automatically find something that you've never actually seen and can't adequately describe is "screwing the players over."

One is applying some of the limitations of magic to a magic power.  The other is basic logic regarding disguise and so forth.

I agree with you as far as what the limitations of the Power SHOULD have been.

What you stated earlier in this thread was to just make up a reason for why it does not work. You may have meant that I should make up a house rule regarding the power, I interpreted it, perhaps wrongly, as me making up a reason why it does not work in this particular instance. Making a ruling regarding a power, preferably before it becomes an issue, is something the players can prepare for, the other makes for grumpy players that feel shot down when they come up with a solution.

[Kontact]

Yeah, things like that should always be an agreement between players and the GM made before it comes up.  Expecting something to work as per RAW and finding out that it's been nerfed is no fun.

I doubt that the players would mind too much.  Search is a runner's nightmare when it's turned against them.

[nifoc]

Search is a runner's nightmare when it's turned against them.

Yes, this was one of the major concerns about the power.

[Sichr]

Argument about Astral only visibility doesn`t stand against the fact that Spirit is able also to find objects that have no aura and from astral POW there is only a shadow of them.

The good limitation you can use is What type of spirit should mage use for Search (detection)...and if he does so, if staying out of spirits domain...ob being in domain oposite to spritis, doesnt disable the power...still, this is only an idea, I dont even houseruled it...

[nifoc]

The good limitation you can use is What type of spirit should mage use for Search (detection)...and if he does so, if staying out of spirits domain...ob being in domain oposite to spritis, doesnt disable the power...still, this is only an idea, I dont even houseruled it...

No offense but...What?

[Sichr]

Well, every magical tradition has assigned some types of spirits for specific tasks. Search would be Detection. so if you, as mage, have IE water spirit for detection tasks, best way to stay out of the spirits reach would be to stay in the Domain dedicated (aspected) to fire

EDIT: I know, there are spirits that are not so oposite as a fire/water is, but there are some possibilities.
I think I remember this "Domain" thing from 2nd ed...

[nifoc]

Except Search isn't limited to Detection, several of the spirit types (Man, Air, Guidance are a few examples) normally have the power. You don't have to summon your traditions Detection spirit in order to get a spirit with Search.

Even IF you had a point, this would require knowledge of what tradition the mage hunting you belongs to.

[Sichr]

Except Search isn't limited to Detection, several of the spirit types (Man, Air, Guidance are a few examples) normally have the power. You don't have to summon your traditions Detection spirit in order to get a spirit with Search.

Even IF you had a point, this would require knowledge of what tradition the mage hunting you belongs to.

Second point - True, here comes your legwork/datasearch/contacts/ability to maintain informations about your oponents to keep yourself alive

First point: That, RAW, is maybe truth. But. would not it be considered of braking the basic traditions limitation? To use the ability from another spirit to do the tassk you have another dedicated for? IMO. for example Zoroasterian magus has Detection - fire, Combat - Guardian. Do you think he would use guardian to do the Search? And would he still be Zoroasterian magus if he does so?
I see an oprtunity for GM to pose great geas on such Magus for breaking basic codex of tradition and in fact betraying it...

[nifoc]

First point: That, RAW, is maybe truth. But. would not it be considered of braking the basic traditions limitation? To use the ability from another spirit to do the tassk you have another dedicated for? IMO. for example Zoroasterian magus has Detection - fire, Combat - Guardian. Do you think he would use guardian to do the Search? And would he still be Zoroasterian magus if he does so?
I see an oprtunity for GM to pose great geas on such Magus for breaking basic codex of tradition and in fact betraying it...

If the fire spirit is better than a guardian for a given task, I expect him to use the fire spirit. Anything else and I would question his intelligence. I also don't see it as betraying your tradition in any way.

[Sichr]

Well, so tell me why those limitations in the traditions are? They seems to represent some set of beliefs, basic principles of what magic/mana is and how they represent it. If this is , as you say, a question of inteligence, why they cannot summon i.e. spirits of plants at all? Even in situations where that would be more Inteligent option then using anything else...IMO this is not just the question of dicepool, it also is a question of good roleplay...
If you dont get this idea, we will not understand each other further Im afraid...

[nifoc]

Well, so tell me why those limitations in the traditions are? They seems to represent some set of beliefs, basic principles of what magic/mana is and how they represent it. If this is , as you say, a question of inteligence, why they cannot summon i.e. spirits of plants at all? Even in situations where that would be more Inteligent option then using anything else...IMO this is not just the question of dicepool, it also is a question of good roleplay...
If you dont get this idea, we will not understand each other further Im afraid...

1) The tradition teaches you how to summon certain spirits, though I don't get the impression that you can never learn to summon other spirits.

2) Even if it is impossible to expand the scope of spirits you deal with there is no restriction on what these spirits may be used for. It might be considered inappropriate by fundamentalists of your tradition, but it is by no means impossible or even difficult to demand any of the listed services from any spirit capable of performing them. If you go this route, you will have to check that some traditions do not suffer due to poor assignment of spirits. Most religious people tend to act in ways contrary to their professed faith all the time, I see no problem with mages justifying their actions as necessary without getting smacked over the head for it. If you feel the need to punish your players for thinking outside their given tradition and skirting the rules a bit, feel free to do so, I just don't see the point in limiting them in that way.

3) Even though i get where you are coming from, I don't have to agree with it. I also don't accuse you of bad roleplaying if we disagree.

[Tsuzua]

Well, so tell me why those limitations in the traditions are? They seems to represent some set of beliefs, basic principles of what magic/mana is and how they represent it. If this is , as you say, a question of inteligence, why they cannot summon i.e. spirits of plants at all? Even in situations where that would be more Inteligent option then using anything else...IMO this is not just the question of dicepool, it also is a question of good roleplay...
If you dont get this idea, we will not understand each other further Im afraid...

It affects what kind of bound spirits can use aid sorcery on your spells.  If you have Detection - Air, then your bound air spirits can aid sorcery your casting of detection spells.  Honestly, I believe it's assigned by a "eh, slap X into slot Y" type manner after they decide what spirit types a tradition has. 

Also even so, many traditions might see little difference between types of spirits.  Why should a shaman who sees all spirits as spirit guides / friends worry too much who does what job?  Also why shoehorn the old domain spirit system from older editions of SR when those spirits don't exist anymore and was used a balancing factor between mages and shamans?  There aren't any City/Forest/Plain/Sea spirits anymore nor do mages and shaman work differently when it comes to summoning.

Don't get me wrong, the search power is a pain the neck.  But instead of grasping at straws and forcing your players to make argument checks against you in real life, why not just say "no search in this game?"  That or just stick people behind wards and concealment far away from their last know location (the logical place most people will start the search).  Sure a force 12 spirit can still likely find the target, but that's the least of the issues a force 12 spirit can bring to the table. 

[Sichr]

Well, so tell me why those limitations in the traditions are? They seems to represent some set of beliefs, basic principles of what magic/mana is and how they represent it. If this is , as you say, a question of inteligence, why they cannot summon i.e. spirits of plants at all? Even in situations where that would be more Inteligent option then using anything else...IMO this is not just the question of dicepool, it also is a question of good roleplay...
If you dont get this idea, we will not understand each other further Im afraid...

1) The tradition teaches you how to summon certain spirits, though I don't get the impression that you can never learn to summon other spirits.

2) Even if it is impossible to expand the scope of spirits you deal with there is no restriction on what these spirits may be used for. It might be considered inappropriate by fundamentalists of your tradition, but it is by no means impossible or even difficult to demand any of the listed services from any spirit capable of performing them. If you go this route, you will have to check that some traditions do not suffer due to poor assignment of spirits. Most religious people tend to act in ways contrary to their professed faith all the time, I see no problem with mages justifying their actions as necessary without getting smacked over the head for it. If you feel the need to punish your players for thinking outside their given tradition and skirting the rules a bit, feel free to do so, I just don't see the point in limiting them in that way.

3) Even though i get where you are coming from, I don't have to agree with it. I also don't accuse you of bad roleplaying if we disagree.

1.

To create a tradition, the player must choose the following:
  1. What the concept of that tradition is.
  2. The types of spirits that followers of that tradition can summon.
  3. The magical associations of those spirit types.
  4. The means by which followers of that tradition resist Drain.

Oposite of can is can not

2.

  A tradition associates each of its spirit types with a category of
magic. These associations serve to color how that tradition views a par-
ticular type of spirit. They also limit how a bound spirit of that type
may serve a magician of that tradition (see Spirit Services, p. 186). For
examples of spirit associations with magic, see Spirits, p. 302.

I understand why are you talking about fanatics or fundamentalists...well consider every mage/shaman/witch strict fundamentalist who strictly follows its tradition...under the penalty of summonig powerfull spirit that would disrespect mage the same way mage disrespects tradition...and possibly punish him for that...I can imagine that woodoo hougan may be torn apart by missused Loa...

[nifoc]

1.

To create a tradition, the player must choose the following:
  1. What the concept of that tradition is.
  2. The types of spirits that followers of that tradition can summon.
  3. The magical associations of those spirit types.
  4. The means by which followers of that tradition resist Drain.

Oposite of can is can not

I said can never learn to summon.

2.

  A tradition associates each of its spirit types with a category of
magic. These associations serve to color how that tradition views a par-
ticular type of spirit. They also limit how a bound spirit of that type
may serve a magician of that tradition (see Spirit Services, p. 186). For
examples of spirit associations with magic, see Spirits, p. 302.

I understand why are you talking about fanatics or fundamentalists...well consider every mage/shaman/witch strict fundamentalist who strictly follows its tradition...under the penalty of summonig powerfull spirit that would disrespect mage the same way mage disrespects tradition...and possibly punish him for that...I can imagine that woodoo hougan may be torn apart by missused Loa...

Which is supported by the Spirit Services section in the Magical Services (aid sorcery, aid study, spell sustaining and spell binding), the Remote Services task suffer no such limitations. There is also no basis for believing that a guardian spirit would consider it demeaning to be asked to track someone down. Other actions are specifically stated as being disrespectful, but there is nothing to suggest such a limitation to the Remote Services task. You are simply grasping at straws here.

[Sichr]

Maybe it is my lack of ability to understand english text.
Like Ive heard it before:
I agree we disagree.