[nifoc]

I have not really been playing Shadowrun since high school (2e) and started buying up books for 4th ed about a year ago while wrapping up other campaigns, looking to get back into it with a IMO vastly improved rules system.

I was bouncing ideas for alternatives to the Food Fight thingy to get a new group started of on som easier runs in my head and something struck me as a little...odd.

Say you are contracted to go find someone, someone trying to stay hidden, in order to find him you seem to have the following options (not mutually exclusive):

A) If you are skilled at legwork you could hit the streets, call up your contacts and see if anyone has heard anything about the guy, check his old haunts and so on... You are looking at days, if not weeks or months before finding your target, and that is assuming he has not skipped town altogether.

B) If you are a skilled Matrix user, you could see if and where he has paid using his commlink, assuming he has not prepared and aquired certified credsticks, or you could try to upload a facial recognition program onto a few hundred traffic control nodes around the city and pray that he hasn't hidden in the Barrens. Unless the target is stupid enough to pay with his commlink you are looking at a huge amount of work and at least a few weeks of waiting.

C) If you are a Mage you summon a spirit and just have it use the Search power. A force 3 Spirit will roll 6 dice generating 2 successes every 10 min (on average) with a starting threshold of 5 plus 1/km to target. Distance to target 20 km = just over 2 hours, Distance to target 200 km = Just over 36 hours (also assumes a bound Spirit, but still feasable). Considering that Vancouver is about 230 km from Seattle, he should be found anywhere in Seattle within 24 hours. Lets assume a lvl 3 ward, thus halving the dice pool of the Spirit, any where in Seattle would still be within the 36 hours unless I've vastly underestimated the size of Seattle.

Does option C seem a little too good to anyone else? Since the description of the Search power states that spirits can track anything that their summoner projects mentally, all you need is a photo or perhaps a 3D image of the target. Maybe I've misunderstood how the power works, or failed to take into consideration the effectiveness of the other methods. I'd like some opinions, maybe solutions from others having the same problem. One idea would be to increase the intervals of the extended test.

[FastJack]

If you buy successes, the Spirit would only be able to generate 1 success every 10 min, so a person hidden 20 km (12.5 miles) would be found in just over 4 hours. If you don't buy successes, remember that glitches and critical glitches can hamper your attempts.

Of course, if the person is REALLY trying to stay hidden, he'll get a Mage to summon a spirit 6 with Concealment or set up a Mana Barrier 6 (which would make your spirit's dice pool 0).

[Makki]

A spirit's Search power is another very good use for the rule of decreasing dice pool at extended tests.

[nifoc]

I understand that there are always ways of avoiding detection, it just seems that the magic option is too effective compared to the alternatives. I might even be able to understand this from a setting standpoint (considering how rare mages are and all), although that has implications on the setting as well. In a gaming group however the mage will outshine the other types in finding anything, unless we are dealing with pure electronic data. Since there really are no distance limitations on the power (and if the spirit is bound there is no expiration date on the test either), it is effectively just a matter of time unless you can make the spirits dice pool 0 for the rest of your life.

This also means that any running crew that screwes over their employer MUST have a mage skilled in summoning or they're dead. Altering your DNA does not help against this after all, so you're stuck living with a bound spirit for the rest of your life. Not that screwing your employer over should be easy, but it should at least be possible.

I am hoping that this was not the intent of the power, but it is the way it written, which is why I am looking for solutions.

A spirit's Search power is another very good use for the rule of decreasing dice pool at extended tests.

I don't remember that one, reference plz?

[Irian]

SR4A, in "Extended Tests". It's optional, as it's only "suggested".

[nifoc]

Yes, the cumulative penalty to the dice pool, or possibly limiting the number of rolls to the spirits Force, are good solutions to this problem.

I felt that without such limitations the power had some bad implications on the setting (noted above) that needed fixing.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

SR4A, in "Extended Tests". It's optional, as it's only "suggested".

True, it's "suggested" (SR4A, 64), but every game I've ever been in (including Missions) has used that rule for extended tests.

[Kontact]

Spirits see and search on the astral.  Unless the mage has previously assensed the guy, and has a good memory of his signature (that's what the attribute-only memory test is all about) then that spirit won't be finding him.  On the astral, objects are shadows, unless they're imbued with some emotional significance to someone, and people are lights.  The spirit is looking for a specific light, and unless the mage has seen it, the spirit won't find it.

That's the limitation of the Search power.
Additionally, if the guy has the flexible signature metamagic, then the spirit will never find him.

[Charybdis]

Additionally, if the guy has the flexible signature metamagic, then the spirit will never find him.

Correction, if the guy has Masking (and/or the Extended version), the spirit will only find him if it can break through on an Assensing test (which is mucho unlikely)

Flexible Signature won't actually make any difference to the use of the Search power...it doesn't change your aura, just the signature of any spells/powers you utilise (and decreases the amount of time that they stick around)...

[nifoc]

Spirits see and search on the astral.  Unless the mage has previously assensed the guy, and has a good memory of his signature (that's what the attribute-only memory test is all about) then that spirit won't be finding him.  On the astral, objects are shadows, unless they're imbued with some emotional significance to someone, and people are lights.  The spirit is looking for a specific light, and unless the mage has seen it, the spirit won't find it.

Do you have a source for that claim? It is not supported by the SR4A descrition of the power at least. Considering that the power does not even need a starting point, as would a dog sniffing out a target for instance, there is no indication that a critter using this power is limited to its normal senses.

I will say that I don't dislike your inperpretation per se, it makes Search less prone to abuse. I might even choose to go with that interpretation myself. It does not seem to be supported by RAW however, and I'm not sure if it is supported by RAI either.

[Kontact]

Powers aren't very elaborate.  It's a small section of a tucked away chapter, and a victim of word count.

How a spirit sees and interacts with the world is outlined elsewhere in chapters on the astral, free spirits and several other places across several other books. 
The fact that the search power never says that the spirit is limited to using sensory input that it can comprehend really shouldn't matter. 
It also doesn't say that it ignores background count or any other sudden reworking of the rules.

On a vanilla reading, a Spirit, using the Search power, could find a Masked mage in a rating 12 manawarp, whose aura was altered to mimic someone else's. 
It's a GM's job to know all the rules and to say, no, he can't.

You want some detective biz and Search would ruin it, then just say it doesn't. 
Either the mage would need an astral imprint of the guy for the spirit to find him, or the guy altered his appearance ever so slightly, enough to make the picture not accurate.  The spirit is looking for an image of a man, not a man.  His visage changes, even from a black eye, the spirit can't find him.  Use whatever contrivance is necessary to allow the story to happen, and the game is back on.

[nifoc]

Powers aren't very elaborate.  It's a small section of a tucked away chapter, and a victim of word count.

How a spirit sees and interacts with the world is outlined elsewhere in chapters on the astral, free spirits and several other places across several other books. 
The fact that the search power never says that the spirit is limited to using sensory input that it can comprehend really shouldn't matter. 
It also doesn't say that it ignores background count or any other sudden reworking of the rules.

I mentioned the problem with your interpretation above, but I'll clarify:
The critter using the Search power does not need to track the target, technically it does not even need to move by RAW. It starts from where it may be at the time, not needing to know which way the target has gone, or start at a place where it can pick up its "scent", it just simply KNOWS. It also does not care about area, population density, terrain or anything else like that as written, only distance and magical warding/masking. It specifically states that a dematerialized being can use it on the astral plane to find physical targets without needing to materialize.
Given all the above, there is no reason for the power to even require sight, smell or any other sense other than the mystical sense granted by this power.

Now, the power may have been intented to work as you claim it does, but by RAW it does not. It is a poorly written power and the optional rule pointed out by some helpful soul above solves most of the problems I have with it.

[Kontact]

The critter using the Search power does not need to track the target, technically it does not even need to move by RAW. It starts from where it may be at the time, not needing to know which way the target has gone, or start at a place where it can pick up its "scent", it just simply KNOWS. It also does not care about area, population density, terrain or anything else like that as written, only distance and magical warding/masking. It specifically states that a dematerialized being can use it on the astral plane to find physical targets without needing to materialize.
Given all the above, there is no reason for the power to even require sight, smell or any other sense other than the mystical sense granted by this power.

Now, the power may have been intented to work as you claim it does, but by RAW it does not. It is a poorly written power and the optional rule pointed out by some helpful soul above solves most of the problems I have with it.

It says they the critter seeks out its target.  Seeking implies moving, unless what you're seeking was in your heart the whole time. 
A being on the astral can move at 1 kilometer per second.  In 10 minutes, that means it's moved 600km.  Animals from Running Wild with Search either have extremely powerful senses or innate detection spells.  Well, most of them.  Some are just nonsense (Centaurs Buffaloes and Eagles?  Seriously?)

[nifoc]

It says they the critter seeks out its target.  Seeking implies moving, unless what you're seeking was in your heart the whole time.

Seeking does not equal moving. It might be used such coloquially but we are talking mystical powers here, assuming "normal" requirements from magical beings seems odd.

A being on the astral can move at 1 kilometer per second.  In 10 minutes, that means it's moved 600km.

And?? Unless it also processes information at a vastly increased pace, it makes little difference regarding population density.

The power still does not require the ability to percieve the natural world as a human being would by RAW, nor does it require the use of any of the critters other senses. We both seem to agree that it is poorly written, what the intent of the author was neither of us can really say.

I will say that I disagree with your suggestion of screwing the players over for the sake of the story, I felt that this needed to be changed due to its implications on the setting. If I miss something in planning an adventure, and my players find a loop-hole or just a brilliant solution that gets them off easy I don't crush their ingenious idea but rather congratulate them and let them get an easy win.

[Kontact]

I don't really think that being unable to automatically find something that you've never actually seen and can't adequately describe is "screwing the players over."

One is applying some of the limitations of magic to a magic power.  The other is basic logic regarding disguise and so forth.