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Drone Questions

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gradivus

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« Reply #15 on: <12-24-15/1803:00> »
in 4th edition it gunnery was always rolled with agility and reaction was always rolled with pilot regardless if you were jumped in or driving remotely

and this matters why?

different edition, different company...

they've already changed multiple things from the way they were done in previous editions.
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Rooks

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« Reply #16 on: <12-24-15/1912:37> »
in 4th edition it gunnery was always rolled with agility and reaction was always rolled with pilot regardless if you were jumped in or driving remotely

and this matters why?

different edition, different company...

they've already changed multiple things from the way they were done in previous editions.
It matters because when this edition screws things up you go to the previous edition for clarification since they seemed to know what the hell they were doing since they mostly just copy and paste the text from the previous books

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #17 on: <12-24-15/1916:41> »
in 4th edition it gunnery was always rolled with agility and reaction was always rolled with pilot regardless if you were jumped in or driving remotely

and this matters why?

different edition, different company...

they've already changed multiple things from the way they were done in previous editions.
It matters because when this edition screws things up you go to the previous edition for clarification since they seemed to know what the hell they were doing since they mostly just copy and paste the text from the previous books

Except for areas where they have completely overhauled the system... like drones.
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UnLimiTeD

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« Reply #18 on: <12-25-15/0815:55> »
Generally, falling back to older rules is a fallacy that I've seen my fair share of, including cases where an ambiguously written rule was interpreted like in SR4 even though the only thing clear about it was that it was not like SR4.
Drones are most certainly different than SR4, though I don't know if they were useful in combat in SR4; if they weren't, there's a similarity.
With the changes to both the Matrix and drones I don't see SR4 as a precedence, but no one can discount that there's plenty cases where rules are just lacking and SR4 ha them.

Anyways, back to drones.
Still waiting on a Vector-Thrust Liminal Body.

Rooks

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« Reply #19 on: <12-25-15/1334:32> »
Generally, falling back to older rules is a fallacy that I've seen my fair share of, including cases where an ambiguously written rule was interpreted like in SR4 even though the only thing clear about it was that it was not like SR4.

Again thats your opinion based on anecdotal evidence which you are most certainly entitled to, everyones mileage may vary like as soon as a persona is loaded into a PAN everyone else is kicked out or you can go the SR4A route and everyone isnt kicked out and you can actually play the game instead of rules lawyering every 5 minutes

Marcus Gideon

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« Reply #20 on: <12-25-15/1505:02> »
Generally, falling back to older rules is a fallacy that I've seen my fair share of, including cases where an ambiguously written rule was interpreted like in SR4 even though the only thing clear about it was that it was not like SR4.

Again that's your opinion based on anecdotal evidence which you are most certainly entitled to, everyone's mileage may vary like as soon as a persona is loaded into a PAN everyone else is kicked out or you can go the SR4A route and everyone isn't kicked out and you can actually play the game instead of rules lawyering every 5 minutes
First off... the people who believe that a Persona loaded into a device makes it stop being a device, need to go back to high school English class and learn what a Transitional Sentence is. Why in the hell would something as significant as "loading a Persona makes it stop being a device, which means anything that targets a 'device' no longer works" be something that just casually gets mentioned at the end of a fluff paragraph? That's a HUGE thing that people would need to know. HUGE like defining why Hosts exist, and why Technomancers can't use ANY of their Resonance abilities to affect it at all. HUGE like saying that Deckers can not protect their teammates if they attempt to do Decker things, since "only devices can be Masters or Slaves" and if your Deck stops being a device then it can't be Master anymore.

Of course, the Writers also need to go back to high school English so they can stop writing such shitty rules that make everyone pull their hair out trying to comprehend.

Secondly... in a game as complex and convoluted as Shadowrun, it's pretty much expected to be a rules lawyer. That's why the Core book is 500 pages. And why there are already more than a dozen supplements out. That's why it takes Master's thesis levels of research and cross referencing to find out how even the simplest of actions are supposed to work.
« Last Edit: <12-25-15/1506:48> by Marcus Gideon »
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Medicineman

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« Reply #21 on: <12-25-15/1541:21> »
Quote
  That's why it takes Master's thesis levels of research and cross referencing to find out how even the simplest of actions are supposed to work.
Isn't that a crying shame ?
 shouldn't it be easier to learn the Rules ?

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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #22 on: <12-25-15/1545:29> »
*polishes the framed Shadowrun Masters diploma on his wall*

I'll frequently go back to previous rule sets to see if they can explain the intent in more detail if in doubt. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, but it also doesn't mean that you should apply something from a previous edition if it directly contradicts something in the new one. Swings and roundabouts and all that; heck, even within the same edition new releases supersede old ones, as with certain Adept powers from Stolen Souls being replaced by the entries in Street Grimoire.

Sendaz

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« Reply #23 on: <12-25-15/1619:51> »
*polishes the framed Shadowrun Masters diploma on his wall*

I'll frequently go back to previous rule sets to see if they can explain the intent in more detail if in doubt. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, but it also doesn't mean that you should apply something from a previous edition if it directly contradicts something in the new one. Swings and roundabouts and all that; heck, even within the same edition new releases supersede old ones, as with certain Adept powers from Stolen Souls being replaced by the entries in Street Grimoire.

*Buffs his Diploma¹ from Big Al's School Of Shadowrunning and Bowling Ball Repair*
Herr B is spot on. 
There has been a LOT of material written over the years and it is not uncommon for an edition to not reiterate all the logic behind a particular mechanic because it was covered previously and the newer edition was just trying to trim space.

Granted it can be annoying for someone coming in fresh when it can feel like you almost need to reference older editions just to understand what the current edition is going on about. 

End of the day the newest edition is the final version, though it can be a trick determining which is the most recent within an edition when you get the sort of overlap that Herr B mentioned above.  I mean seriously if you just joined the game today, would you know which was the more recent: Street Grimoire or Stolen Souls without looking at the publication date (and that is not taking into account possible reprints/errata)? 

¹ Big Al never really went in for distinctions like Bachelors and Masters, you generally either toughed it out through the years of grilling at the table or you didn't make it to graduation and took up a softer games like Parcheesi or Rummy.
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Rooks

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« Reply #24 on: <12-26-15/0932:55> »
Generally, falling back to older rules is a fallacy that I've seen my fair share of, including cases where an ambiguously written rule was interpreted like in SR4 even though the only thing clear about it was that it was not like SR4.

Again that's your opinion based on anecdotal evidence which you are most certainly entitled to, everyone's mileage may vary like as soon as a persona is loaded into a PAN everyone else is kicked out or you can go the SR4A route and everyone isn't kicked out and you can actually play the game instead of rules lawyering every 5 minutes
First off... the people who believe that a Persona loaded into a device makes it stop being a device, need to go back to high school English class and learn what a Transitional Sentence is. Why in the hell would something as significant as "loading a Persona makes it stop being a device, which means anything that targets a 'device' no longer works" be something that just casually gets mentioned at the end of a fluff paragraph? That's a HUGE thing that people would need to know. HUGE like defining why Hosts exist, and why Technomancers can't use ANY of their Resonance abilities to affect it at all. HUGE like saying that Deckers can not protect their teammates if they attempt to do Decker things, since "only devices can be Masters or Slaves" and if your Deck stops being a device then it can't be Master anymore.

Of course, the Writers also need to go back to high school English so they can stop writing such shitty rules that make everyone pull their hair out trying to comprehend.

Secondly... in a game as complex and convoluted as Shadowrun, it's pretty much expected to be a rules lawyer. That's why the Core book is 500 pages. And why there are already more than a dozen supplements out. That's why it takes Master's thesis levels of research and cross referencing to find out how even the simplest of actions are supposed to work.
Or just play Shadowrun 4 also so what you are saying is people can log on with their personals on their commlinks and link it to their deckers cyberdecks
« Last Edit: <12-26-15/0935:41> by Rooks »

Adamo1618

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« Reply #25 on: <12-26-15/1226:32> »
I'd really like this question answered:

"What rolls are made while using Gunnery jumped into a drone ? Gunnery + Logic ? Or + Agility ?"

I've seen many arguments for both. Was it ever officially answered?

Its linked attribute is Agility, and the Control Device Matrix Action mentions Gunnery + Agility. Why would it be Logic?

RiggerBob

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« Reply #26 on: <12-26-15/1318:17> »
Its linked attribute is Agility, and the Control Device Matrix Action mentions Gunnery + Agility. Why would it be Logic?

Core Rulebook, p.183.:
Quote
Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Weapon Skill + Agility [Accuracy] for manual operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems.

Is using Control Device ("control a weapon remotely with your commlink like a videogame controller") a manual operation because it uses agility?^^

Either p.183 (Gunnery rules) or p.238 (Control Device) is wrong... or both are correct and remote operated systems means rigged ones while jumped-in.  :o
(Or both ar correct and the example is wrong as the specific rule for gunnery replaces the general attribute+skill^^)

Welcome to the wonderful world of 5th edition, where lack of errata and communication forces us to guess a rules intention, because we still have no clear answer to basic rule questions after years.  ::)
« Last Edit: <12-26-15/1344:43> by RiggerBob »

Marcus Gideon

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« Reply #27 on: <12-26-15/1436:39> »
This same convo just started in another thread as well.

For my money... when someone actually has hands on a device, they can roll Agility. So the guy in the Vietnam movies, hanging out the side of the helicopter to shoot the machine gun, is rolling Gunnery + Agility.

The Rigger, resting comfortably in the backseat of the armored van, using Virtual Reality to operate the weapon, is clearly doing so REMOTELY. And the book says remote operation uses Logic.
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #28 on: <12-26-15/1442:09> »
I've chosen to make this question a little simpler by using the Astral Attribute table for whenever a rigger is in full VR (hot or cold). This neatly solves the issue of a quadriplegic rigger needing a high agility or reaction to pilot a vehicle which seems extremely unlikely to me.

Even if you're not using astral attributes I think the difference between remote and manual control can easily be summed up as the difference between using your hands and using your mind. If you're in VR (and arguably, in AR without using your physical appendages) you should to my mind be using Logic instead of Agility.

That's just my interpretation, though, but I don't really care about RAW vs what actually makes sense to me personally. I'll always chose to use my own interpretation over arguing rules for hours and hours.

gradivus

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« Reply #29 on: <12-26-15/1636:56> »
in 4th edition it gunnery was always rolled with agility and reaction was always rolled with pilot regardless if you were jumped in or driving remotely

and this matters why?

different edition, different company...

they've already changed multiple things from the way they were done in previous editions.

I was grouchy, not at any one here, but grouchy nonetheless and should have worded this differently.

While some subsystems in 5e are sufficiently similar to 4e, many if not most are not. It almost seems they decided to make changes in a lot of areas simply for the sake f change and the ability to say- see, this really is a new system and not just a rehash of 4e. But then they do things like cut and paste and muddle up the works because the cut and paste from 4e isn't in line with the rest of the section in 5e.

Drones and shifters got really screwed in this edition.. and rigger 5 has in some ways made drones worse off. For example, I had assumed drones could only have autosofts = to pilot rating or less. Then I was happy to find out, no that's not the case. But then Rigger 5- yup, limited to pilot so good luck with having a drone hit something without FA or being controlled by an RCC or you jumped in. And now you have to use up a program slot to use a smartgun system.. seriously, the algorithms in the targeting program can't handle being fed info from the smartgun system- it's 2077 for Dunkelzahn's sake.
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