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Shock Gloves/Knucks + Penetrating Strike

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ScytheKnight

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« Reply #15 on: <01-27-15/1642:01> »
Also note that as soon as you take Killing Hands (or any kind of Bone Enhancements) Knucks become useless as the only thing they do is make your unarmed attacks do Physical instead of Stun damage.
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Imveros

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« Reply #16 on: <01-27-15/1642:26> »
The only issue is  that a weapon focus is specifically a melee weapon. 

However, you can still get the same effect by combining a killing hands qi focus with an improved ability(unarmed) qi focus.

As I said earlier your fists are weapons used in melee. They have a damage code listed for combat and require a combat skill to hit with. How are they not melee weapons?
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ScytheKnight

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« Reply #17 on: <01-27-15/1707:26> »
Because unarmed combat is about much more than swinging your fist at something.

In terms of magic there is a clear delineation between striking something with your body (fist/foot/knee/elbow/head but/whatever) and striking with a wielded weapon. Even though they're quite simple I would say even Knucks are a weapon because you strike with them, not your fist, if they exist in Shadowrun the same would be said of Katas (punching daggers), sure you may be striking with a punching action, but it is the weapon that causes the damage, not your fist.
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firebug

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« Reply #18 on: <01-27-15/1745:42> »
Because unarmed combat is about much more than swinging your fist at something.

In terms of magic there is a clear delineation between striking something with your body (fist/foot/knee/elbow/head but/whatever) and striking with a wielded weapon. Even though they're quite simple I would say even Knucks are a weapon because you strike with them, not your fist, if they exist in Shadowrun the same would be said of Katas (punching daggers), sure you may be striking with a punching action, but it is the weapon that causes the damage, not your fist.

No offense, but that is like saying if you're wearing any kind of glove, they are the weapon, not your fist.  Your fist isn't hitting them, so no magic for you.  You are getting a bit too technical and nit-picky.  Considering hardliner gloves are one of the knucks suggestions (which are just gloves with hardened knuckles), I'm pretty sure it still counts as a punch.  And keep in mind, even if it affects your damage, your fist is still doing most of the damage.  It's your strength, your arm, etc, that's making the swing and the weight.  The gloves are just adding a bit of hardness to it for more of an impact.
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UnLimiTeD

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« Reply #19 on: <01-27-15/1801:38> »
To talk about the original topic:
Quote
This ability allows an adept to focus and project an unarmed
attack a short distance forward, ...
This power can be used in conjunction
with the Killing Hands power but not Elemental Strike.
If it's a weapon focus, it's not unarmed, as being armed by definition is holding a weapon, even if said weapon uses the unarmed skill.
It specifically mentions Killing Hands, so one has to assume things not mentioned would not get that bonus.
Things that are part of you work, and as such Shock Hand would be debatable, but Electrical weapons have a fixed AP. *shrugs*
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Lucean

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« Reply #20 on: <01-28-15/0339:00> »
As I said earlier your fists are weapons used in melee.

Please provide a quote. Because unless you do, it's just an opinion and not a rule. Therefore (although it might be all flavorful and cool) RAW is contradicting the possibility of using your fists as a weapon focus.

Medicineman

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« Reply #21 on: <01-28-15/0747:30> »
a Weapon Focus is an Item (which can be enhanced by Magic) your Fists aren't
Knuckles could be used as a Weapon Focus (even Spurs before they get implanted) but (as far as I understand the Rules) they don't ad to Critical Strike

....oO( according to the Great Bruce Lee , for a True Martial Artist your whole Body is a Weapon.
 Even though it would be cool, I doubt that you can have a Weapon Focus " whole Body"....
you can use a Qui Focus for improved Ability and Killing Hands though , which is cool, but not the same )

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« Last Edit: <01-28-15/0751:30> by Medicineman »
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Imveros

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« Reply #22 on: <01-28-15/1107:43> »
As I said earlier your fists are weapons used in melee.

Please provide a quote. Because unless you do, it's just an opinion and not a rule. Therefore (although it might be all flavorful and cool) RAW is contradicting the possibility of using your fists as a weapon focus.

So a weapon is something with a damage code, an accuracy limit, and requires a combat active skill to use. If you have a different definition of a weapon let me know and i change the quotes

SR core 187
Quote
Melee Damage
Unarmed melee damage is (STR)S. All other Damage
Values are listed as part of weapon statistics.

I cant seem to find the quote for unarmed damage being tied to physical limit, but we all know it is

SR core 132
Quote
Unarmed Combat
Unarmed Combat covers the various self-defense and attack
moves that employ the body as a primary weapon.
This includes a wide array of martial arts along with the
use of cybernetic implant weaponry and the fighting styles
that sprung up around those implants.
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Close Combat
Specializations: Blocking, Cyber Implants, Subduing
Combat, or by specific Martial Art

If the argument is it had to be a manufactured weapon, it does not mention that requirement in the description. No where in the description of weapon foci does it say an item. It says melee weapon over and over, but never item. Tattoo foci also don't require an item anyway even if it did.

SR core 320
Quote
Weapon Foci
A weapon focus always has, unsurprisingly, the form of
a melee weapon. It adds magical power to the melee
attacks you make with it. When used in physical combat,
it gives you its Force as a dice pool bonus on your melee
Attack Test. You still rely on your Physical Attributes and
skills in combat; the weapon focus merely makes you
more effective.
A weapon focus is effective against astral forms too,
whether you’re using astral perception or projection. It
adds its Force to your Astral Combat Tests when you’re
using it, and you can take it along while astrally projecting.
The damage of the weapon in astral combat is the
same as it is in the physical world, except that you can
decide between Stun or Physical damage (Astral Combat,
p. 315).

Going off of my previous statements, an unarmed attack qualifies as a weapon due to  having a damage code, having an accuracy attribute, and having a linked combat skill

Then we go off to Street Grim which talks about tattoo magic and says says

SG p131
Quote
Using the
Artificing skill, the magician can create qi and other foci as tattoos.

So that allows for  the creation of weapon foci tattoos

As for the argument that it uses the whole body. All of the unarmed adept powers affect all attacks, kicks, punches, headbutts because mechanically it makes no difference. They all the deal the same damage with the same accuracy with the same dice pool. The only difference is thematic. If you want to rule it that way you could say only a single fist/foot/ext is the foci, and then you become the master of the iron punch. You can also brag you can take people with a hand tied behind your back, because you weren't going to use the non foci hand anyway.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #23 on: <01-28-15/1121:00> »
I agree that an unarmed attack is a weapon in the strictest sense, and I like the idea of a tattoo on your fist (especially for someone who knows 52 Blocks).  Also, I agree that a tattoo can be a part of a weapon focus.  I still feel some apprehension for some as-yet undetermined reason though.  Maybe it's just because the idea is completely new to 5th edition, and therefore alien to me.  Or maybe I'm just worried that someone would take it too far.  I can't see how it could be taken too far though, it's just angst really.

I would allow it at my table, but I'd let the player know that it's foreign territory, and therefore I might have to revoke permission if I see something about it I don't like.  I love to eat cheese, but it has no place at my table.  While I can't predict any kind of stupid behavior that would be possible with this idea, I know of at least two of my former players that would easily find all possible loopholes and exploits.
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UnLimiTeD

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« Reply #24 on: <01-28-15/1159:38> »
Well, if the weapon focus always has the form of a melee weapon, how would you fight someone with a tattoo?
Or would you cut off the fist, enchant it as a weapon focus, then reattach it?  ???
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Lucean

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« Reply #25 on: <01-29-15/0239:48> »
So a weapon is something with a damage code, an accuracy limit, and requires a combat active skill to use. If you have a different definition of a weapon let me know and i change the quotes
There is no written definition of a weapon, you only listed qualifiers that allow us to distinguish them from other items. The only thing we have are the tables labeled with "xxx weapons". And you will find neither "Fists" nor "Feet" nor "Body" there.

Quote
SR core 132: Unarmed Combat Unarmed Combat covers the various self-defense and attack moves that employ the body as a primary weapon. This includes a wide array of martial arts along with the use of cybernetic implant weaponry and the fighting styles that sprung up around those implants.
"Employ the body as weapon" is entirely different from "for Unarmed Combat the body counts as melee weapon", which is a definition that would work.

Quote
Going off of my previous statements, an unarmed attack qualifies as a weapon due to  having a damage code, having an accuracy attribute, and having a linked combat skill
No, your quote
Quote
SR core 187: Melee Damage Unarmed melee damage is (STR)S. All other Damage Values are listed as part of weapon statistics.
does it the other way round. It proves that Unarmed Attacks aren't weapons, because otherwise they would be listed along with the other weapons and their statistics.

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #26 on: <02-23-15/1508:29> »
Some of you have said some of what I want to say, but none of you have said all of it, so I apologize for resaying some things.  Just take it to mean I agree.

Let's break it down.

1) There are melee weapons that use the blade skill, the clubs skill, and the unarmed skill.  The first two have an accuracy, the last uses the physical limit. 

2) The power of Critical Strike works with a particular melee skill.  It will work with a sword if chosen for the blades skill, a stun baton if the clubs skill is chosen, and there is likewise no question that it will work with a stun glove, knocks, et all.  For that matter, it probably even works on elemental body.  If you've chosen it for unarmed, and you're rolling unarmed dice, it works.  It would work with cyber spurs!  Critical strike (blades) wouldn't. 

3) Killing Blow, Elemental Strike (which is useless) and Penetrating Strike all say they work with an unarmed attackIt is not clear to me if this means literally a naked fist, or just any attack that uses the unarmed skill.  It could just be effectively stating a more specific version of the limitation on Critical Strike.  If anyone knows of an applicable errata or FAQ, please let us know. 

4)  It is clear that you could have weapon foci knucks. (or a shock hand, for that matter).  I also feel it is fairly clear you could have weapon foci tattoos, these presumably would enhance your bare fist attacks.  What would be weird is if you stacked a shock glove or knucks on top of that.  I dunno what happens then.  But I think it's clear you could use penetrating strike and elemental strike with the weapon foci.  You'd need to use killing hands if you wanted to do physical damage, for that matter. 

Those are the only facts I feel we have. 

My personal feeling is that knucks are an extension of your bare hand attack in a way that shock gloves and such are not.  They're just making your knuckles a little harder.  I've been using Killing hands with Knucks without really thinking about it, my GM raised no objections.  I'm pretty sure that if I did so with my shock gloves, objections would be raised.  Punching someone with your hands on fire wearing densiplast gloves seems fine, burning someone while using a shock hand (or burnign and shocking?!?) seems weird and cheesy and probably destroys most people's sense of immersion in the game.  (even though fire dmg really doesn't do much).  Adding the -4 AP from penetrating strike on top of the -5 from shock gloves seems like cheese city. 

There is no special rules justification for this, it is just my feeling on what is "reasonable."   It all comes down to the definition of what an "unarmed attack" is, which as far as I know, is not well-defined. 

You can get a much better effect than knucks using bone lacing or reinforcement, and penetrating strike would definitely, no question, work with that. 

Ogrepot

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« Reply #27 on: <02-25-15/0822:24> »
Personally i would add Penetrating Strike with knucks, as they can be worn as gloves. But for the matter of the weapon focus tattoo, well under the Elemental Weapon power description, it writes that the power adds the elemental effect to the weapon focus INSTEAD of her hands. The word instead being exclusive, it would rule that hands are not and cannot be weapon foci.
At least it is my understanding.

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #28 on: <02-25-15/1100:06> »
So, using Elemental Weapon for an unarmed weapon foci, instead of elemental strike, would be weird.  But I still don't see a problem, you're effectively enhancing the tattoo, not your fist, now.  But you spent .5 PP to have a power that only works when you have the focus active, when you could have spent .5 PP to have something work whenever you punch something.  There would be no reason to do that. 

But you clearly can have weapon foci tattoos. 

jim1701

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« Reply #29 on: <02-25-15/1212:05> »
So, using Elemental Weapon for an unarmed weapon foci, instead of elemental strike, would be weird.  But I still don't see a problem, you're effectively enhancing the tattoo, not your fist, now.  But you spent .5 PP to have a power that only works when you have the focus active, when you could have spent .5 PP to have something work whenever you punch something.  There would be no reason to do that. 

But you clearly can have weapon foci tattoos.

It's not clear where I stand.  True you can make various foci from tattoos but as far as I am concerned it still has to pass the common sense test and in my book weapon foci tattoos do not.