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[SR5] Magician and starting spells

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Namikaze

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« Reply #15 on: <01-19-15/2358:40> »
The book doesn't say that you can't do a lot of things.  But the book shouldn't need to do that for all possible permutations of the rules.  People complain the main book is too big as it is.  :P  Seriously, as your GM to get their interpretation.
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pixiesunbelle

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« Reply #16 on: <01-20-15/1100:46> »
He hasn't said anything yet but I've decided against initiation right away since the qualities become double karma after the game starts. He'd probably allow it though since it doesn't explicitly say you cannot.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #17 on: <01-20-15/1241:40> »
Well, to begin with, the chargen chapter includes a specific list of things you can spend karma on during character creation. Initiation, among other things, is not listed among the options. Initiation also requires a certain time period and rolls to succeed; the closest analogue is binding spirits, and the in-play rolls for that are abstracted into paying nuyen to start the game with bound spirit services.

There are also dev statements on the forum to the effect that you can't spend karma to initiate/submerge at chargen.
Playability > verisimilitude.

pixiesunbelle

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« Reply #18 on: <01-20-15/1403:20> »
Honestly, everything is all over the place that I had to get someone from another game to help me create my character with me. I wouldn't even know where to find such things on here.

Also, learning a spell requires a check too. Yet, at character generation you are allowed spells.

8-bit

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« Reply #19 on: <01-20-15/1421:55> »
Also, learning a spell requires a check too. Yet, at character generation you are allowed spells.

At character generation, you are considered to know a set number of spells. You only make a check to learn new spells. It's assumed that you learned your character creation spells, so they don't require a check.

pixiesunbelle

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« Reply #20 on: <01-20-15/1519:39> »
Well, where are these statements that say you cannot initiate at character generation?

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #21 on: <01-20-15/1552:05> »
Well, where are these statements that say you cannot initiate at character generation?
You want me to run forum/google searches for you? Seriously?

Start here: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=16489.0

Bull has stated the same elsewhere.
« Last Edit: <01-20-15/1605:21> by Whiskeyjack »
Playability > verisimilitude.

Namikaze

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« Reply #22 on: <01-20-15/1805:06> »
There are no statements that specifically and clearly state you that one absolutely cannot initiate at character generation.  None.  However, for Missions games (which are very much the official meta-game) one cannot initiate at character generation.  The Missions games are the official meta-game, but that doesn't mean that it's the law of the land everywhere.  Each table will have different house rules and rules interpretations.  My house rule document is 5 pages long.  But when I'm running a Missions game, I know exactly what the rules are going to be, and so does everyone else.  Think of the Missions games as being house ruled by Catalyst, rather than the GM.  For this reason, a lot of GMs I know prefer to use the Missions FAQ as a guideline for their own house rules.

Additionally - Pixiesunbelle, your posts are coming off as being extremely aggressive, incredulous, and confrontational.  If this is not intended, I would wholeheartedly recommend you re-think the way you phrase your posts.  If this is intended, please let us all know so that we can put you on our ignore lists.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

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pixiesunbelle

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« Reply #23 on: <01-20-15/1922:58> »
There are no statements that specifically and clearly state you that one absolutely cannot initiate at character generation.  None.  However, for Missions games (which are very much the official meta-game) one cannot initiate at character generation.  The Missions games are the official meta-game, but that doesn't mean that it's the law of the land everywhere.  Each table will have different house rules and rules interpretations.  My house rule document is 5 pages long.  But when I'm running a Missions game, I know exactly what the rules are going to be, and so does everyone else.  Think of the Missions games as being house ruled by Catalyst, rather than the GM.  For this reason, a lot of GMs I know prefer to use the Missions FAQ as a guideline for their own house rules.

Additionally - Pixiesunbelle, your posts are coming off as being extremely aggressive, incredulous, and confrontational.  If this is not intended, I would wholeheartedly recommend you re-think the way you phrase your posts.  If this is intended, please let us all know so that we can put you on our ignore lists.
Oh no, I'm just incredibly frustrated. I'm used to the hard set of rules that Pathfinder and DnD 3.5 where everything is stated very clearly.  I don't know what Mission games are....

Our GM told us, "go make shadowrun characters"....

Namikaze

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« Reply #24 on: <01-20-15/1938:49> »
Mission games are sort of the Shadowrun equivalent of the Pathfinder Society games.  They're pre-built games with strict character creation and development rules.  There's a pile of things that are outlawed in Missions, because most Missions games are run with a very tight time limit and limited character interaction.  As a result, the rules for Missions tend to be much more simplified.  A lot of GMs like to use these modifications as the basis for many of their own house rules, myself included.  If your GM won't spend time with your group to help build characters, I foresee many problems in the future.

Your GM should be willing to set guidelines for character creation, assisting where possible, and answering any questions you might come up with.  If the GM won't do that, then I'd wonder if your GM has even bothered reading the rules and such.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

pixiesunbelle

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« Reply #25 on: <01-20-15/1947:23> »
Mission games are sort of the Shadowrun equivalent of the Pathfinder Society games.  They're pre-built games with strict character creation and development rules.  There's a pile of things that are outlawed in Missions, because most Missions games are run with a very tight time limit and limited character interaction.  As a result, the rules for Missions tend to be much more simplified.  A lot of GMs like to use these modifications as the basis for many of their own house rules, myself included.  If your GM won't spend time with your group to help build characters, I foresee many problems in the future.

Your GM should be willing to set guidelines for character creation, assisting where possible, and answering any questions you might come up with.  If the GM won't do that, then I'd wonder if your GM has even bothered reading the rules and such.
He knows about as much of the game as we (the other players in my group) do...

Honestly, if it's not prohibited in the book then he'd probably allow it. He's that type of player/GM.

I don't know how much he's read so far. He hasn't responded yet when  I asked. So, it's not that he won't but it's more like it's completely new to all of us.

pixiesunbelle

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« Reply #26 on: <01-20-15/1950:20> »
Well, where are these statements that say you cannot initiate at character generation?
You want me to run forum/google searches for you? Seriously?

Start here: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=16489.0

Bull has stated the same elsewhere.
You have referenced something that I have not found anywhere searching, I stated that I am new to the game and you expect me to not want you to back up a claim?

Honestly, a statement from someone who doesn't work for the company are not concrete.

Namikaze

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« Reply #27 on: <01-21-15/0009:27> »
You have referenced something that I have not found anywhere searching, I stated that I am new to the game and you expect me to not want you to back up a claim?

Did you attempt searching on these forums?  I know the search function can be a little overwhelming with the results that it returns, but did you actually look up something along the lines of "initiation at character creation?"  We get a lot of people on these forums, and many of these people don't bother looking for things.  Also, as I previously stated you have to realize that your posts were a bit confrontational.  Let's just chalk this up to a miscommunication.

Honestly, a statement from someone who doesn't work for the company are not concrete.

On these forums, you're not going to often get straight answers from people who work for Catalyst.  You're going to have to exercise some judgment in order to determine which answers work for your group and which don't.  The actual employees of Catalyst are listed in red lettered names as administrators.  The only one of which can give definitive answers to the overall game world is Jason Hardy (JM_Hardy on the forums), and he will not answer 99.9% of the rules questions posed.  Bull is the next closest thing to a truly official source as he's the Missions coordinator.  As I stated before, Missions aren't the be-all, end-all of the game but Bull has a lot of say in what is considered official and what isn't.  Then you've got the Freelancers, who are those writers that actually write the books and rules.  All of their work gets filtered through by Jason, who makes the final decision about the direction of the game.  So the Freelancers have a lot of input, but can't make anything concrete either, despite working for Catalyst.  Below them you've got the rest of us.  Some of us have decided to become Demo Agents, which simply means that we are officially recognized GMs for Catalyst, and we can run events on the company's behalf.  But you've got a lot of 5-star posters that aren't demo agents, and they usually know a LOT of stuff.  That's not to say that the folks with fewer stars are less knowledgeable though - as I said, you need to exercise your own judgment.

Having only 11 posts, and several of those posts appear confrontational, I'd say that you should probably up the polite level and turn down the sarcasm.  That might get you more of the kinds of polite, not sarcastic responses that you seem to be looking for on the forums.  My experience here has taught me that you get out what you put in, and if you put in vitriol, you'll get it right back.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

Lucean

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« Reply #28 on: <01-21-15/0436:19> »
Oh no, I'm just incredibly frustrated. I'm used to the hard set of rules that Pathfinder and DnD 3.5 where everything is stated very clearly.  I don't know what Mission games are....

Our GM told us, "go make shadowrun characters"....
I know what you mean :)

Try to get as much positive qualities as you need during chargen, as their cost doubles during play. Attributes, skills, spells, initiations all maintain the same costs. Also during play you can try to make an ordeal during initiation to lower the cost. Joining a magical group early can be a good long-term investment, to save karma, especially when you can combine it with ordeals and/or academic schooling.

pixiesunbelle

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« Reply #29 on: <01-21-15/0855:35> »
You have referenced something that I have not found anywhere searching, I stated that I am new to the game and you expect me to not want you to back up a claim?

Did you attempt searching on these forums?  I know the search function can be a little overwhelming with the results that it returns, but did you actually look up something along the lines of "initiation at character creation?"  We get a lot of people on these forums, and many of these people don't bother looking for things.  Also, as I previously stated you have to realize that your posts were a bit confrontational.  Let's just chalk this up to a miscommunication.

Honestly, a statement from someone who doesn't work for the company are not concrete.

On these forums, you're not going to often get straight answers from people who work for Catalyst.  You're going to have to exercise some judgment in order to determine which answers work for your group and which don't.  The actual employees of Catalyst are listed in red lettered names as administrators.  The only one of which can give definitive answers to the overall game world is Jason Hardy (JM_Hardy on the forums), and he will not answer 99.9% of the rules questions posed.  Bull is the next closest thing to a truly official source as he's the Missions coordinator.  As I stated before, Missions aren't the be-all, end-all of the game but Bull has a lot of say in what is considered official and what isn't.  Then you've got the Freelancers, who are those writers that actually write the books and rules.  All of their work gets filtered through by Jason, who makes the final decision about the direction of the game.  So the Freelancers have a lot of input, but can't make anything concrete either, despite working for Catalyst.  Below them you've got the rest of us.  Some of us have decided to become Demo Agents, which simply means that we are officially recognized GMs for Catalyst, and we can run events on the company's behalf.  But you've got a lot of 5-star posters that aren't demo agents, and they usually know a LOT of stuff.  That's not to say that the folks with fewer stars are less knowledgeable though - as I said, you need to exercise your own judgment.

Having only 11 posts, and several of those posts appear confrontational, I'd say that you should probably up the polite level and turn down the sarcasm.  That might get you more of the kinds of polite, not sarcastic responses that you seem to be looking for on the forums.  My experience here has taught me that you get out what you put in, and if you put in vitriol, you'll get it right back.
I really don't see how I am not polite. I'm just straight to the point. I am not sarcastic. Honestly, I don't use nor pick out sarcasm very well, lol.
I'm just looking for rules I can look for in the book or written by someone who developed the game. That's it.

Yes, I have used google which led me to forum posts. Nothing applicable to my questions have turned up so I signed up for here.