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Lets talk weapon mods...again

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Kincaid

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« Reply #15 on: <05-20-14/1016:00> »
What I do is I look up an image of the weapon.  Does it look like it's default mods are internal?  If not then what slots are they taking up?  While the book could have been more clear, I do not see this as requiring others to say whether something is the case or not.

A lot of the weapon write-ups are written without seeing the art beforehand, so I wouldn't read too much into one image or another.
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LionofPerth

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« Reply #16 on: <05-20-14/1127:50> »
I'll agree to the integral versus internal subject. Integral says fundamentally part of the weapon to me, internal means that's it a part of the guns actual workings. There's some unfortunate and confusing overlap. I can see a laser sight being Internal, but not Integral, if that helps clarify things. Another would be the suppressor on the MP5 Navy variant, that's fundamentally part of the weapon and can't be removed.

What I'm a little.... confused about to be honest is the idea of having only one side mount. Considering how many weapons out there at the moment can have items either side of the weapon, why does this mean I can only have one? Sure, I can make it change out pretty quickly, but that's avoiding the issue of a silly bit of wording/design.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to turn this into 'and this is how we customise a real M4' type of argument, I none the less would have appreciated a little more clarity here. A few more items as well, I believe a side saddle for the stock of the EBR would be a very popular item.
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SlowDeck

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« Reply #17 on: <05-20-14/1132:14> »
I think the side-mount item may have been a typo and it was intended to be two.
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LionofPerth

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« Reply #18 on: <05-20-14/1157:40> »
I think the side-mount item may have been a typo and it was intended to be two.

You and me both.
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Lobo

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« Reply #19 on: <05-20-14/1346:06> »
As long as we are talking about the side mount, let's not forget the fact that currently, the only accessory that can legally be put on a side mount is a gun cam - since all the other accessories specify which mounts they are allowed on, and the gun cam is the only one that mentions it.

So, you can house rule which accessories go on the side mount, but by the RAW, the gun cam is it.

DeathStrobe

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« Reply #20 on: <05-20-14/1455:01> »
As long as we are talking about the side mount, let's not forget the fact that currently, the only accessory that can legally be put on a side mount is a gun cam - since all the other accessories specify which mounts they are allowed on, and the gun cam is the only one that mentions it.

So, you can house rule which accessories go on the side mount, but by the RAW, the gun cam is it.
There are also a few mods that don't describe where they can go at all. Like the commlink. Makes me think you can mount ones that don't say specifically on any of the mount locations.

Lobo

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« Reply #21 on: <05-20-14/1458:17> »
As long as we are talking about the side mount, let's not forget the fact that currently, the only accessory that can legally be put on a side mount is a gun cam - since all the other accessories specify which mounts they are allowed on, and the gun cam is the only one that mentions it.

So, you can house rule which accessories go on the side mount, but by the RAW, the gun cam is it.
There are also a few mods that don't describe where they can go at all. Like the commlink. Makes me think you can mount ones that don't say specifically on any of the mount locations.

That sounds reasonable.

SlowDeck

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« Reply #22 on: <05-20-14/1501:04> »
As long as we are talking about the side mount, let's not forget the fact that currently, the only accessory that can legally be put on a side mount is a gun cam - since all the other accessories specify which mounts they are allowed on, and the gun cam is the only one that mentions it.

So, you can house rule which accessories go on the side mount, but by the RAW, the gun cam is it.
There are also a few mods that don't describe where they can go at all. Like the commlink. Makes me think you can mount ones that don't say specifically on any of the mount locations.

I dunno. Given the ones that can go anywhere tend to specify such... I think these are in the slotless category. Especially since they include things like the weapon personality, which is basically just a program.
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Tarislar

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« Reply #23 on: <05-20-14/1513:28> »
I believe the problem is that there is a difference between integral and internal.

To me, for what it is worth, integral means that you can't remove it - but doesn't actually mean that it takes up the internal spot.

For example: the Ares Crusader MP has a "integral barrel-mounted gas-vent 2 recoil compensation system"

So integral and internal are not the same thing.

To me, this means that you can't just take the gas vent 2 off of the Crusader and slip on a suppressor - the barrel mount is used up by the integral gas vent 2.

Similarly, they Steyr TMP has a "built-in top-mounted laser sight." - to me, this means that you can't remove, and it occupies the top mount - so integral, but not internal.

Now, if it doesn't specify a mounting, then an integral item could be internal, and in many cases, has to be.   For instance, the Ingram Smartgun, comes with a gas vent 2 (barrel mount), a smartgun system (top mount) and an integral sound suppressor - which in this case must be the internal mount, since the barrel mount is occupied.

I'm kinda in the same boat here with Lobo.

Integral = Not Removable,  But is taking up the listed slot.

Internal = Doesn't take up the slot  (And is also NOT removable)

DeathStrobe

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« Reply #24 on: <05-20-14/1516:24> »
As long as we are talking about the side mount, let's not forget the fact that currently, the only accessory that can legally be put on a side mount is a gun cam - since all the other accessories specify which mounts they are allowed on, and the gun cam is the only one that mentions it.

So, you can house rule which accessories go on the side mount, but by the RAW, the gun cam is it.
There are also a few mods that don't describe where they can go at all. Like the commlink. Makes me think you can mount ones that don't say specifically on any of the mount locations.

I dunno. Given the ones that can go anywhere tend to specify such... I think these are in the slotless category. Especially since they include things like the weapon personality, which is basically just a program.
That's not true. They specifically call out the ones that don't eat up a mount location, like the concealable holster or sling. While something like the commlink or flashlight don't get any mention to where they are mounted, so theoretically can go anywhere.

And while it maybe completely ridiculous to have a flashlight on your stock, it does make sense that you'd be able to mount it  on over, under, on top, or inside the barrel or inside the internals of the gun (somehow). There might even be some kind of half logical explanation to get a stock mounted flashlight to shine in front of you somehow.

SlowDeck

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« Reply #25 on: <05-20-14/1539:02> »
As long as we are talking about the side mount, let's not forget the fact that currently, the only accessory that can legally be put on a side mount is a gun cam - since all the other accessories specify which mounts they are allowed on, and the gun cam is the only one that mentions it.

So, you can house rule which accessories go on the side mount, but by the RAW, the gun cam is it.
There are also a few mods that don't describe where they can go at all. Like the commlink. Makes me think you can mount ones that don't say specifically on any of the mount locations.

I dunno. Given the ones that can go anywhere tend to specify such... I think these are in the slotless category. Especially since they include things like the weapon personality, which is basically just a program.
That's not true. They specifically call out the ones that don't eat up a mount location, like the concealable holster or sling. While something like the commlink or flashlight don't get any mention to where they are mounted, so theoretically can go anywhere.

And while it maybe completely ridiculous to have a flashlight on your stock, it does make sense that you'd be able to mount it  on over, under, on top, or inside the barrel or inside the internals of the gun (somehow). There might even be some kind of half logical explanation to get a stock mounted flashlight to shine in front of you somehow.

And yet, the weapon personality is software and not marked down as slotless. Given everything else that takes up a slot is hardware, that one item doesn't make sense as taking up a slot. Because it's physically impossible to mount a program to the side of a physical object. You can attach an RFID tag holding the program, but RFID tags are hinted (through both fluff and the rules for the Tracker mod) to be slotless.

Also, mounting a flashlight to the stock portion of the gun means the flashlight will either have its beam blocked by the gun or it will illuminate things behind you, while using it to modify the barrel means it will likely be destroyed the first time you pull the trigger. Some would say that the flashlight is mounted beneath the barrel when put in that position... except that underneath the barrel happens to be an entirely different slot. Above the barrel puts it in top of the weapon slot. Basically, anything that is mounted on the barrel slot needs to be designed with the idea a bullet will be traveling through it. And the commlink is in the same boat.

The problem with those items going in any slot is that it doesn't actually make any sense. Then again, look at the foregrip item; given the way the slot system is written up, the foregrip has you holding the barrel of the gun in your hand. It is obviously an item that belongs in the underbarrel slot.

Edit: And, looking at it, you are right that the items which are slotless are marked and there's no item marked as going in any slot (except one possibility, and it runs into the same problems as the flashlight).
« Last Edit: <05-20-14/1551:35> by SlowDeck »
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DeathStrobe

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« Reply #26 on: <05-20-14/1741:12> »
Okay.Lets  look at the rules, so we can define exactly what it is we are ruling on here.

SR5 Core p 417
Quote
Mounts: There are several places where a weapon accessory can be attached to a firearm: underbarrel, barrel, or top-mount. Only one accessory can be attached to a particular mount. Integral accessories (those that come with the weapon) don’t take up mount locations. Hold-outs don’t have mounts. Pistols, machine pistols, and SMGs do not have an underbarrel mount, just top and barrel mounts. All rifles and heavy weapons have all three types of mounts. Projectile weapons can only take accessories designed for them specifically.

Run & Gun p50
Quote
Let’s start with the basics of how you’re going to add stuff to your weapon. When you want to add something to your weapon, it’s going to go into one of six places. 1) One top of the weapon; 2) Underneath the barrel of a weapon; 3) On the side of a weapon; 4) Internal to the weapon, meaning it is built into the weapon and integral to its systems; 5) Replacing or adding to the barrel; 6) Replacing or adding to the stock.

Emphasis mine.

In core, if a mod comes with a gun, it is treated as integral. This is a general rule.

Specific trumps general, so if a gun's description says a mod is in a slot, then it will trump general.

Run and Gun defines integral mods as using the internal slot of a gun, which did not exist in core, so should be assumed that all gun mods in core that are integral are in the internal slot. I'll have to go through all the guns to make sure there are no weird contradictions, But this does sound like it should be consistent with the modding rules of Run and Gun.

Anyone have any weirdness where this ruling breaks?

SlowDeck

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« Reply #27 on: <05-20-14/1757:24> »
I do have weirdness where it might break. In the core rulebook, both the Ceska Black Scorpion and Uzi IV feature integral folding stocks. And in Run and Gun the AK-98 features an integral underbarrel grenade launcher.

I am not saying it does break there. Just those are areas that are questionable for being internal slot.
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DeathStrobe

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« Reply #28 on: <05-20-14/1809:11> »
I just ran in to my first weirdness. And that's the Airburst Link. Which does not eat up a weapon slot...but it probably does. My assumption is that it has to use up the internal slot. But of course it doesn't say that anywhere, and by core it'd be able to have both an internal smartgun and Airburst link on the same rocket/grenade launcher.

These rules...so annoying...

SlowDeck

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« Reply #29 on: <05-20-14/1817:37> »
There's also concealable holster, which by Run and Gun logic would be slotless.

Hidden arm slide, which I have no clue what slot it could be.

Quick-draw holster; same as concealable.

Smart firing platform is another potentially-slotless item.

Spare Clips and Speed Loaders are inherently slotless.

And then there's the stuff in Gun Heaven 3...
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