[FastJack]

Ok, so maybe I answered my own question:

Living things, that are NOT magically active on the astral have auras, and cannot be targeted by direct combat spells.  So, I cannot attack a street Samurai, while using astral preception, when using a direct combat spell?  right?  Mage, Shaman, dual natured critter no problem, but mundane no way? Is that the jist of this thread?

Don't think in terms of Direct Combat Spells. You have to think in terms of the type of spell, either Mana or Physical:

A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no physical presence.

Auras and Astral Forms
     Living things that are not active on the astral plane still cast a reflection of themselves there, called an aura. Any non-living objects appear as faded semblances of their physical selves, gray and lifeless, while the auras of living things are vibrant and colorful.
     Anything active on the astral plane has a tangible astral form—projecting magicians, spirits, dual-natured beings, and so on. Astral forms are more colorful and brighter than auras, as they are astrally “real.” The Earth has an astral form, and many regard this as proof that the planet is a living entity apart from the creatures that inhabit its surface.

Type
Spell Type is either mana (M) or physical (P). Mana spells affect their targets through the mana that permeates the astral and physical planes—affecting the target in a magical and spiritual manner that is only effectively resisted by the Willpower of a living or magical being. Physical spells directly target the body; resistance relies on the target’s Body attribute. Only mana spells can affect astral forms. Either type of spell may be used in the physical world, but mana spells cannot affect non-living targets.

Note that in the first quote, "a magician in astral space" means that the magician is Astrally Projecting.

[Sichr]

LOS is simply a step up from touch, and is inclusive of the previous range (touch).

Wait a minute... does this mean you think that any LOS(A) spell can be cast as LOS, which therefore means it can be cast as Touch?

<snip>

What followed was a really good straw man argument based upon things I never said.

What the Touch or LOS ranges (or even LOS(A), as you put it) really boil down to is whether or not you can perceive your target.  If a blind caster could, for example, touch multiple people, then, yes, the LOS(A) might just work.  Touch is a substitute for LOS because the caster can directly perceive the target via touching him (or his aura, if you want to nitpick).  Touch is the fallback for all casting, although it comes with some penalties (not being able to see hampers casters).

1. Never said you said any of it, I posed a "if-then" logical extension of the theory. Namely, exactly what it would mean if LOS allows the Touch, since Touch, LOS and LOS(A) are merely the three tiers of range. If range can be "stepped down" from LOS to Touch, then I see no reason why it would not follow that LOS(A) wouldn't be "stepped down" to either LOS or Touch. It's called consistency.

2. Show me the rule that says "a LOS spell may be cast as a Touch spell". I want book name, page number, and clarity.

Example:

Under the basic Shadowrun rules, such a link requires line of sight or touch.

Doesn't mean anything in this context, since it is countermanded by:

The spell can target anything the caster can physically see or assense, regardless of distance

Which is further limited by this:

though auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted

So, barring a rule saying "LOS spells can be cast at Touch range", a LOS spell can target anything the mage see with his eyes, or an Astral Form that he can assense, but not things he cannot see, having no Astral Form to assense, which he happens to be touching.

Just step out of a box a think about that blind Ghoul shamans. He is perceiving and he is physicaly present. No matter what YOU think, I`ll play it this way

[The_Gun_Nut]

So, basically, Chaem is saying that ghouls, spirits, or any other creature that cannot physically see the target cannot affect it with spells.

Right.

[Chaemera]

So, basically, Chaem is saying that ghouls, spirits, or any other creature that cannot physically see the target cannot affect it with spells.

Right.

Now who's putting words in whose mouth?

Sight does not need to come from a physical organ, spirits are stated as being perfectly capable of "seeing" on the physical plane, as opposed to relying on astral perception.

When observing an object, a spirit sees the auras and shadows first and the physical characteristics second.

A ghoul magician is quite capable of casting a touch spell (and given his physical prowess, this is likely the preference). Additionally, what's to stop the ghoul magician from casting Thermographic Vision or Night Vision (both SM, pg 168) on himself? Now he can cast spells just like everyone else.

Where is the rule that says LOS = Touch + LOS?

[Kot]

Where is the rule that says LOS = Touch + LOS?

Nowhere. That's logic. If you can touch someone, you can see him, except for full darkness and blindness conditions. But even then, you do have a sensory connection. LoS is there, because most people rely on their most important sense.
I know that's not in the rules in SR, but Earthdawn clarified this in the Astral Conduit rules (sensory contact via touch or sight equals astral contact with the target aura is possible).

[The_Gun_Nut]

Even without referencing another (albeit related) game, like Kot says, it's simple logic.  Adherence to the rules is important for establishing a good relationship with your players.  Blind adherence to the rules (pun intended, cause it's funny), OTOH, can be detrimental both to the game and group relations.

I did as much word putting as you did, Chaemera.  And did so to call attention to the issue, not to try to tear down another person.  Like here, (emphasis mine):

LOS is simply a step up from touch, and is inclusive of the previous range (touch).

Wait a minute... does this mean you think that any LOS(A) spell can be cast as LOS, which therefore means it can be cast as Touch?

Because, that's what you said. Since ranges go Touch -> LOS -> LOS(A), and you're arguing that LOS, being one higher on the totem pole, can be cast as Touch, that only makes sense if you include LOS(A) going down the totem pole, too.
<snip>

I only said what I said, and did not state, imply, or dance around the other issue you spoke of.

Aside from all this chatter, Touch range has a special relationship with the rules.  Simply because the caster isn't touching the target, but the target's aura.  This introduces some interesting rules, such as only needing to get a tie on the attack/defense test as well as granting a small bonus to hit for the toucher.  Also, the target can't really do anything but dodge, otherwise contact occurs.  I don't think this is explicitly stated in the rules, but it is an important point to consider.

[FastJack]

Chill on the attitudes, boyos, or warnings will be handed out.

[Sichr]

So, basically, Chaem is saying that ghouls, spirits, or any other creature that cannot physically see the target cannot affect it with spells.

Right.

Now who's putting words in whose mouth?

Sight does not need to come from a physical organ, spirits are stated as being perfectly capable of "seeing" on the physical plane, as opposed to relying on astral perception.

When observing an object, a spirit sees the auras and shadows first and the physical characteristics second.

Sees auras and may target them - IMHO Astral Perception works the same way

[/quote]
A ghoul magician is quite capable of casting a touch spell (and given his physical prowess, this is likely the preference). Additionally, what's to stop the ghoul magician from casting Thermographic Vision or Night Vision (both SM, pg 168) on himself? Now he can cast spells just like everyone else.
[/quote]

It doesnt make sense that born-to-be Dual natured entity, magical from its core nature, have to cast spell to be able to cast spells...
This would be strange disadvantage against metas, who are basicaly anchored to physical realm and are only beginning to understand what Magic means...

[Kot]

There is one thing that the Touch spells have, and LoS don't - significantly lower Drain. So when you use a LoS spell at Touch range, you still get the LoS Drain, and you still have to hit the target in a +2 unarmed attack. I think that's enough, game-balance-wise.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Ah, ya, drain is significantly lower for Touch.  While I would use LOS spells in touch range, in a pinch, I'd prefer to use Touch spells for their drain.  That way I could pump up the damage without too much worry.

Hmmm...a mystic adept in close combat is sounding nastier and nastier.

[Kot]

Especially with some points into Improved Ability (Unarmed), and a proper specialty. A good Close-Combat specialist that does have other strong points (healing, for example).

[Bradd]

One thing to consider is the game is pretty loose about what it considers "sight" – it includes includes infrared, radio, and sonic detection, so long as the sense is natural, magical, or paid by Essence. It's clear that "sight" isn't restricted to natural eyesight. Touch is just "sight" with a different sense organ, and we even refer to it as such in idioms like, "the blind see with their hands." It's special in that it has no range, but otherwise it's just as precise and discerning as RADAR, which is definitely in the game's "sight" category.