[FastJack]

Um, Gun Nut, he may not be wrong:

Line of Sight (LOS): The spell can target anything the caster can physically see or assense, regardless of the distance (see p. 173, SR4). The caster may not target anything that is completely behind cover or otherwise obscured. Since the caster only needs to see part of the target, a Perception Test may be necessary to see if the caster can spot enough of the target to cast. Visibility modifiers apply to the Spellcasting Test. Note that full body armor does not “conceal” the person within and prevent them from being targeted.

[Mordoyh]

I say dust off and nuke them all from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure.

[Chaemera]

And Chaemera is still wrong.  Spell casting requires one to see the aura of the target.  While casting, the mage briefly makes contact with the astral in order to sync up his aura with his target(s) and the spell jumps from mage to target(s).  Astral perception allows direct view of the aura, modified by things like cover, as normal, but a living aura glows brightly.  This allows a mage to cast even in pitch black darkness.

The mage simply has to perceive his target, not see it (blind fire pertains to physical attacks).  If blindfolded, the mage can target anything or anyone he is touching, for example, because he knows the target is there.  He does not incur a "blind fire" penalty, because he isn't using physical sight.  One could grant a penalty based upon how much is touching, similar to visibility modifiers.

Gun Nut, when you find a rule that countermands the blatant statement:

though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted

You must visual / assensing perception of either their body or their astral form.

I don't mean to be rude, but you need to provide direct quote to a rule that says you can target via an aura. I'm not willing to accept your word that the RAW doesn't say what it says in the quote above. Provide the rules that support your claim, don't call me wrong until you do. If you can find them, you have my apologies, but until then, the only RAW we have to go by is what I quoted above.

[Kot]

Guys, let's keep it professional.

As for the spell targeting rules, i'm going to use Earthdawn rules for astral conduit as guidelines. Those are good enough - you need to see the target, or have other means of accurate pinpointing his location - like touching him in pitch-black darkness. There's a neat ED rule that also states, that you can place a AoE spell's center on your fingertips. And Smelling/Hearing/Sensing with radar/echolocation/other kind of indirect sense is not allowed - you only smell the molecule trail, hear the sounds generated, and such. You can try casting a physical AoE spell, and hope it will be enough, but not any other kind, as you only make a guess where your target is.
But i would allow to target someone'a aura using Astral Perception (not projection), if the target is hiding in darkness, or soft, non-solid cover (camo net). But only if the mage detects him with a successfull Perception test...

[The_Gun_Nut]

Well, this is a case of new rules blatantly changing how the setting works from one edition to the next.  For nigh 20 years, all a caster needed was the aura of the target, since that was what he was targetting in the first place, and not the physical body, with direct spells.  This was even commented and utilized ad infinitum in all the magic supplements (Magic in the Shadows, Awakenings, and what not).  Hell, this idea is even still supported by touch spells; all one needs to do is connect the auras for the touch to work.

So, why the change now?  And one that doesn't make a lot of sense given the way spells connect in the first place (aura to aura)?  This also trashes the notion of direct spells bypassing armor in the first place, since they ground themselves into the aura of the target to do damage.  It's also why mana spells have no effect on non-living things, as they have no aura to be ground into, and physical spells have to overcome the inherrent resistance of the object.

Why on earth would anyone reverse the metaphysics of how their magic system works, when it worked just fine (and made a modicum of sense) for two decades?

[FastJack]

Let's take a look:

In choosing a target or targets, the magician can cast a spell at anyone he can see. Binoculars, glasses, and other devices can enhance his vision, as can magic or technology that penetrates darkness. A magician cannot, however, cast spells at invisible beings or characters in Astral Space [except] by using enhanced vision or Astral Perception.

Spell Targeting
     In choosing a target or targets, the magician can choose anything within sight. Sight is the key concept. Magicians cannot directly affect what they cannot see. Binoculars, glasses, telescopes, and other devices can enhance vision for spellcasting, as can any magic or technology that penetrates darkness. A magician cannot, however, cast spells directly at invisible beings or beings in astral space except by using enhanced vision or astral perception, as appropriate. Remote vision, such as through a telecom screen, security camera, or a remote-sensing spell like clairvoyance are also useless for casting spells. A good rule of thumb is that magicians must be able to see their targets with their own eyes or a natural extension of those eyes. The image of the target must be the original image; nothing that translates the image into another medium works. So, optical binoculars work fine for spellcasting, but electronic binoculars that digitize the light from the image and computer-enhance it would not work.
     Mirrors work fine, and transparent glass is no hindrance, but unless the mage is on the "see-through" side of a one-way mirror, that would not work either. Cybereyes work because the magician has paid Essense for them. The remote cameras of a drone, however, would not work. See Combat Spells (p. 151), Spells and Astral Space (p. 149), and Manipulation Spells (p. 156) for further discussions of vision and spell targeting.

    First, obviously, the magician chooses the spell to be cast and chooses a target. Regardless of the nature of the spell, the target must be within direct line-of-sight of the spellcaster. Combat spells, and most others (except manipulation spells) affect only targets within the caster's vision. If, for example, two characters were standing within a meter of each other, but one was blocked from the magician's view, only the visible character could be affect by the spell even though the second character might be within the area-affect of the spell.
     Why is this?
     The reason has to do with how a spell works. As a spell is being cast, the magician's senses are opened up partially to the astral plane. The magician, because of the working of the astral forces that power the spell, is able to see the aura of the target. This allows him to align or synchronize his aura with that of the target, permitting the astral energy shaped by the caster to leap between them, through astral space, much as a spark of electricity jumps between two properly polarized points. The spell leaps from the caster, crosses the distance to the target in astral space, and strikes.

Spell Targeting
     With spellcasting, the caster must be able to see the target and must be present on the same plan (physical or astral) as the target.<snip>
     A physical spellcaster can cast a spell at any physical thing he can see unaided by imaging technology. However, optical lenses, mirrors and fiber optics can enhance line of sight, as can cybernetic vision enhancements (they have been paid for with Essence). Metahuman vision abilities can also enhance line of sight, but not spells like Clairvoyance or any other spells which alter vision. Anything modifying the original image of the target before it reaches the caster, such as digital imaging equipment or simsense, prevents the caster from casting spells on the target.
     Concealed targets gain cover modifiers, which increase the difficulty of spellcasting. If the caster's line of sight is in question, the gamemaster may call for a Perception Test to determine if the caster can see a particular target.

Step 3: Choose the Target(s)
     The next thing a magician must do when casting a spell is choose her target(s). A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used. Some spells can only be cast on targets that the caster touches—these targets do not need to be seen, but the caster must succeed in an unarmed attack to touch an unwilling target of such a spell.
     The act of choosing a target establishes a mystic link between caster and target. It is through this “targeting link” which the mana of a spell construct is channeled to produce a spell effect. Under the basic Shadowrun rules, such a link requires line of sight or touch. Line of sight can even be established using reflective surfaces and through transparent objects, and is subject to normal visibility and lighting modifiers. As noted above, sighting through an electronic vision-enhancing device or other technological rendering of the target does not establish the necessary link.
     A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no physical presence.

So, 1st and 3rd edition really didn't touch on the nature of the link between caster and target. 2nd edition described it, but I have a feeling it got a bit abused since it made it sound like a magician was astrally perceiving every time he cast a spell. Of course, this doesn't really resolve the overall question, but at least we have reference points from all the editions.

[The_Gun_Nut]

And second edition is the one I ran and played the most.  First edition was mostly my college roommate running, I ran a few things right before 2nd edition came out.  Then 2nd ed. came and I ran it exclusively for many years (played a few times, as mages as it were).  Then 3rd ed. came out and my gaming group changed, along with the preferences I was used to.  Played quite a bit more than I ran those years, and we played WoD mostly (a few Shadowrun games here and there).  Then 4th ed. came out, I moved, and got a new group and we played that a bit, but mostly d20 and similar fantasy.

I got them interested in SR and ED, and we've played that off and on along with some d20 and Pathfinder, with the occasional Exalted thrown into the mix.

Looking back on it now, most of my information, as well as my source material, is 2nd edition with a smattering of the other editions thrown in.  Guess I'm biased.

[Kot]

2nd edition described it, but I have a feeling it got a bit abused since it made it sound like a magician was astrally perceiving every time he cast a spell.

My explanation: if we take ED rules into question, he does. He forms an astral conduit between himself, and the target, because he can see him. This works like sympathetic spell, but without any components or other hindrances. Spells wit touch range need that conduit to be formed even more directly, by linking the caster's and target's aura. That would also explain why it's impossible to cast from astral, even with auras being visible...

Looking back on it now, most of my information, as well as my source material, is 2nd edition with a smattering of the other editions thrown in.  Guess I'm biased.

It's just that you have outdated data.

[FastJack]

And second edition is the one I ran and played the most.  First edition was mostly my college roommate running, I ran a few things right before 2nd edition came out.  Then 2nd ed. came and I ran it exclusively for many years (played a few times, as mages as it were).  Then 3rd ed. came out and my gaming group changed, along with the preferences I was used to.  Played quite a bit more than I ran those years, and we played WoD mostly (a few Shadowrun games here and there).  Then 4th ed. came out, I moved, and got a new group and we played that a bit, but mostly d20 and similar fantasy.

I got them interested in SR and ED, and we've played that off and on along with some d20 and Pathfinder, with the occasional Exalted thrown into the mix.

Looking back on it now, most of my information, as well as my source material, is 2nd edition with a smattering of the other editions thrown in.  Guess I'm biased.

Nothin' wrong with that!

[Muspellsheimr]

@Mordoyh

Read the line immediately before the one you quoted:

Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted).

I got into an argument over this once on Dumpshock. After scouring the core book, I could not find a quote to support my position. Later, I learned that the rules had been altered/expanded in Street Magic, where I had gotten my original position from.

I do not recall if I simply misinterpreted it initially, or if I was correct all along. As I don't have access to that book at the moment, I will rely on FastJack's quote:

Line of Sight (LOS): The spell can target anything the caster can physically see or assense, regardless of the distance (see p. 173, SR4). The caster may not target anything that is completely behind cover or otherwise obscured. Since the caster only needs to see part of the target, a Perception Test may be necessary to see if the caster can spot enough of the target to cast. Visibility modifiers apply to the Spellcasting Test. Note that full body armor does not “conceal” the person within and prevent them from being targeted.

To cast a spell on a target, two requirements must be met:

First, you must establish Line of Sight. This can be accomplished through visual Perception or Assensing - if you can see the target physically, or Assense the target, you have met this requirement. Note that despite what the core rules say about targeting, an aura is sufficient for Assensing, & thus does fulfill this requirement (this is something they really should have fixed in the core rules with the Anniversary update).

Second, you must be active on the same plane as the target - Physical or Astral. A non-perceiving, non-projecting magician is active on the Physical. An Astrally Projecting magician is active on the Astral. An Astrally Perceiving magician is active on both. The first cannot use Assensing, and so cannot target spells through it. The second can do so, but cannot cast spells on the Physical plane, & thus cannot affect physical targets. The third can use Assensing to target a spell, and can cast on either the Physical or Astral, allowing for Assensing to target against living beings, regardless of if they have an astral form or not.

Keep in mind that non-living objects do not possess an aura or astral form (excepting Foci or similar magically active objects), and so cannot be targeted through Assensing ever.

However, knowing where he is using astral perception, you could cast an indirect spell in the meat (-2 penalty) at a point in space where his aura says he should be (-6 for firing at what you can't see) for a total -8 die pool. Which, perhaps, is what the OP meant. However, it's a very bad solution to the problem. Just gas the room.

Incorrect (kind of). As I established above, you can use Astral Perception to target the spell against a mundane target. However, Indirect Combat Spells must still have a target (yes, even AoE spells). They cannot be cast through the Blind Fire rules. This is, of course, something I have House Ruled against.

The camoflaged guy is camoflaged on the physical plane.  His living aura shines like a beacon on the astral plane.  Unless he has some serious masking going on, he can be seen and attacked with astral perception (albeit with a -2 penalty).

The -4 penalty from Ruthenium Polymer only applies to visual Perception, correct. However, if the character is using the Infiltration skill, you must still win an opposed (Astral) Perception vs. Infiltration to see the character. If successful, then you are right (although the -2 penalty only applies to physical actions/attacks, not spellcasting).

[Bradd]

Sight isn't the only way to establish a mystic link. Per the core rulebook, you can also use touch to target any spell (including LOS spells). Per the FAQ, you can also use astral perception, or any other integral sense at the GM's discretion. When you use an alternate sense, you should first make an appropriate perception test to establish the mystic link; for astral targeting, you should probably require an Assensing test.

I'm not sure when exactly you should use the blind fire penalty. As an educated guess, I'd say you should probably use it when establishing the mystic link with a non-targeting sense (e.g., normal hearing) but not when using a precise sense like echolocation or astral perception. In those cases, use visibility modifiers for physical senses or the -2 penalty for astral perception. That makes astral perception slightly better than thermo or ultrasound in complete darkness, which seems reasonable to me, given the risks it opens you up to.

[Chaemera]

First, you must establish Line of Sight. This can be accomplished through visual Perception or Assensing - if you can see the target physically, or Assense the target, you have met this requirement. Note that despite what the core rules say about targeting, an aura is sufficient for Assensing, & thus does fulfill this requirement (this is something they really should have fixed in the core rules with the Anniversary update).

Second, you must be active on the same plane as the target - Physical or Astral. A non-perceiving, non-projecting magician is active on the Physical. An Astrally Projecting magician is active on the Astral. An Astrally Perceiving magician is active on both. The first cannot use Assensing, and so cannot target spells through it. The second can do so, but cannot cast spells on the Physical plane, & thus cannot affect physical targets. The third can use Assensing to target a spell, and can cast on either the Physical or Astral, allowing for Assensing to target against living beings, regardless of if they have an astral form or not.

Keep in mind that non-living objects do not possess an aura or astral form (excepting Foci or similar magically active objects), and so cannot be targeted through Assensing ever.

You have to assense the target, agreed?

Is the aura the person?

Living things that are not active still cast a reflection of themselves there, called an aura.

Emphasis mine.

Aura /= person who's aura it is. You can't target someone through their shadow, and as the rules on page 183 and 191 of SR4A make perfectly clear, that's exactly how to treat an aura, an astral "shadow" of the person, not the person. The line on page 160 of Street Magic is referencing the core rule on 183 regarding targeting an astral form (assensing is action of observing something on the astral plane).

When you assense an aura, you assense the "vibes" and "reflection" of the being who owns the aura. You aren't actually looking at the person.

Show me where you find a rule that an aura is sufficient for targeting and I'll buy it. Page 160 of Street Magic simply says assensing can work, it doesn't say that assensing an aura can work. Specific trumps general and the specific is "aura is not enough", until you find something that actually says otherwise.

FAQ has been repeatedly established as not being an errata, and therefore, if there is a conflict between the RAW and the FAQ, the RAW is correct.

Also, Bradd, the core rulebook states the following:

A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision. . . Some spells can only be cast on targets that the caster touches - these targets do not need to be seen, but the caster must succeed in  an unarmed attack to touch an unwilling target of such a spell.

Emphasis mine.

All spells have a range at which they can be cast. For most spells, the range is line of sight (LOS). If the caster can see the target, regardless of distance, it can be affected.
     Some spells, particularly health spells, require the cast to touch the intended target in order for the spell to work.

Maybe I'm missing something, if so, please give me a reference and page #. Short of that, LOS requires sight in the physical, or assensing of an astral form in the astral (see previous quotes from the RAW on this, no RAW has been presented which suggests anything less than an astral form is permissible). Touch spells are the only spells that can be (and must be) cast by touching someone.

Please, if I'm wrong, provide a direct quote from the RAW which demonstrates your point. If your contention is that specific doesn't trump general, or that the FAQ is official errata, then we'll simply agree to disagree.

EDITED
To add line breaks for clarity.

[Muspellsheimr]

Incorrect.

A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bioenhancements
paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but
any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s
own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds,
etc.—cannot be used. Some spells can only be cast on targets that the
caster touches—these targets do not need to be seen, but the caster
must succeed in an unarmed attack to touch an unwilling target of
such a spell.

The targeting range (mystical link requirement) is determined by the spell - Touch or Line of Sight.
At no point is it supported that you may use one to cast a spell requiring the other. You cannot use Touch to target a LoS spell. This is clearly marked in the rules somewhere, but I cannot recall where & don't have the time to look for it at the moment.

Further, Blind Fire can never be used to target a spell. Per my House Rules, Indirect Combat spells can be cast using the Blind Fire rules.

[Bradd]

Some spells can only be cast on targets that the
caster touches—these targets do not need to be seen, but the caster
must succeed in an unarmed attack to touch an unwilling target of
such a spell.

The act of choosing a target establishes a mystic link between
caster and target. It is through this “targeting link” which the mana
of a spell construct is channeled to produce a spell effect. Under the
basic Shadowrun rules, such a link requires line of sight or touch.

Emphasis mine. I read this as saying: General rule, you can use line of sight or touch for any spell; specific rule, some spells allow only touch. I can see how you are interpreting that differently, but there is no similar rule that says you can only target LOS spells by sight. It merely says that you can target them at range by sight.

I agree that the FAQ is not errata, and should be ignored where it contradicts the rules. However, the FAQ is a reasonable source for clarifying ambiguous rules, and this is such a case.

[Kot]

If you can touch someone, he's usually in your LoS. Unless you can't see even your own fingers. ;P

As for the Assensing, that would work on Earthdawn rules (if Aura is the same as Astral Reflection, and it should be). So for the sake of bringing the two together and unifying magic theory i'm going to use that. Even if it's against standard rules.