[The_Gun_Nut]

The elementals didn't kill the world.  It's what the guy did with them (evacuated a magic tube then hyper-accelerated a stoneskin protected stone to significant percentages of C before leaving the plane and allowing it to smash into the planet, destroying the ecosystem).

[Nomad Zophiel]

There are so many problems with that idea I think I'll stick with the obvious one: "and the DM let this work?"

[Chaemera]

And the answer is "yes".

I've heard too many stories of GMs/DMs simply accepting the insanely random not to just shrug and accept it every time someone tells me about the "really cool time" someone "did something completely stupid and broken". It's SOP for most RP groups.

[Archivist]

Vacuum Elementals Suck!



someone had to do it...

[The_Gun_Nut]

Heh!

Anyway the DM didn't see it coming.  He didn't figure out what the guy was doing until he ported to another plane and let the object strike the planet.  Which he had calculated would strike at a speed of about 0.1 C when he left.

I think it pierced to the mantle.

[Juxtamon]

Vacuum elementals...when AD&D had all its Inner and Outer planes and their interactions, they were from a spot where the Plane of Air brushed up against the Negative Material Plane, pretty sure.

There were other mixes, and para-elementals, and stuff.  Magma, ash, salt, dust, mud, steam...the mixes of different planes, and the Positive and Negative planes too.

Terrible, terrible good times.

[Mordoyh]

9) Camouflaged individuals and Astral Perceiving. There was some assassin with some crazy camouflaged armor in a dark room. Can i use Astral Sight to see him (Life Forms Glow) and cast spells at him (In same room starring at him just Astrally). Based on what me and my GM read we went with it but was it right?

9. No. Item 6. SR4A, pg. 183 (Step 3)

I have to disagree with the answer for no. 9 (unless I am misreading it).  It states in step three of pg. 183. SR4A "An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space."  So in the situation that he gives he would be able to cast the spell on the camouflaged assassin, but visibility modifiers would apply, etc.

[The_Gun_Nut]

The camoflaged guy is camoflaged on the physical plane.  His living aura shines like a beacon on the astral plane.  Unless he has some serious masking going on, he can be seen and attacked with astral perception (albeit with a -2 penalty).

[Chaemera]

@Mordoyh

Read the line immediately before the one you quoted:

Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted).

Emphasis mine.

So, you can see his aura, but you can't target his aura with a spell from the astral, in other words, you know where he is, but don't have meat line of sight.

Also:

A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision.

You have to see the target on the plane you are attacking him on. This is necessary to create the mystical link.

However, knowing where he is using astral perception, you could cast an indirect spell in the meat (-2 penalty) at a point in space where his aura says he should be (-6 for firing at what you can't see) for a total -8 die pool. Which, perhaps, is what the OP meant. However, it's a very bad solution to the problem. Just gas the room.

[Chaemera]

The camoflaged guy is camoflaged on the physical plane.  His living aura shines like a beacon on the astral plane.  Unless he has some serious masking going on, he can be seen and attacked with astral perception (albeit with a -2 penalty).

-8 penalty, you can't see him (just his aura) so you have the -2 (physical action while astrally perceiving) and -6 blind-fire (you don't see him).

But yes, my original answer is not 100% accurate, assuming you are talking about an indirect spell. Direct spell must be have a mystic link established via line of sight (unless it's a touch spell) on the plane you're casting.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Incorrect.  You see his aura just fine.  You are using astral perception not astral projection.  Astral perception keeps you on the same plane (the physical) but gives you some nifty extra senses.  Trying to sync those senses up with the physical produces some difficulties (literally, the -2).

He can fire away, but also, since the mage is using astral perception, he can't use the physical bonuses he might have had.  Namely things like smartlink or laser sights, as they have no astral counterpart (none visible enough to count, anyway).

EDIT:  Also, the mage can't use indirect sensing means, such as full goggles that replace vision (like those nifty night vision goggles the spec ops guys always seem to wear).

[Chaemera]

Incorrect.  You see his aura just fine.  You are using astral perception not astral projection.  Astral perception keeps you on the same plane (the physical) but gives you some nifty extra senses.  Trying to sync those senses up with the physical produces some difficulties (literally, the -2).

He can fire away, but also, since the mage is using astral perception, he can't use the physical bonuses he might have had.  Namely things like smartlink or laser sights, as they have no astral counterpart (none visible enough to count, anyway).

EDIT:  Also, the mage can't use indirect sensing means, such as full goggles that replace vision (like those nifty night vision goggles the spec ops guys always seem to wear).

The Blind Fire modifier applies when the attacker attempts to hit a target that is completely obscured by cover, total darkness, or undetectable by sight.

Astral perception is not sight, it is a separate sense, the blind fire penalty applies.

I have already laid out, repeatedly, the rules for targeting a spell via an aura with a direct spell (you cannot do it). An astrally perceiving character is dual natured, his senses on the astral apply to targeting spells on the astral. His senses in the meat apply to targeting spells in the meat. Otherwise, they wouldn't say "you cannot target an astral aura". I'm not going to site that one because I already have multiple times.

When you find a line that says "Though you cannot target an astral aura, you may use an astral aura to establish LOS in the physical world for targeting a direct spell", get back to me.

It states in step three of pg. 183. SR4A "An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space."  So in the situation that he gives he would be able to cast the spell on the camouflaged assassin, but visibility modifiers would apply, etc.

Yes, a dual-natured magician can target astrally or physically, but he has to have a valid mystic link via line of sight or touch. Astral auras are specifically sited as something that cannot be targeted, in other words, they do not provide a valid line of sight in the meat.

[Unisus]

So how about casting an indirect spell with area effect just on a point near the astrally perceived aura? Maybe a point the mage can see?

[Mordoyh]

So how about casting an indirect spell with area effect just on a point near the astrally perceived aura? Maybe a point the mage can see?

He actually illustrated that scenario; -2 for assensing, -6 for blind fire.  I see Chaemera's point. 


So really, they should be me.  I'm shapeshifter, dual-natured (no -2 for assensing), and I have natural low-light vision. And for those special situations of "pitch black" I carry a low-light flash light.  Of course, I'm also fond of casting touch spells, so I'd just close on the guy....maybe bite him just for fun.

[The_Gun_Nut]

And Chaemera is still wrong.  Spell casting requires one to see the aura of the target.  While casting, the mage briefly makes contact with the astral in order to sync up his aura with his target(s) and the spell jumps from mage to target(s).  Astral perception allows direct view of the aura, modified by things like cover, as normal, but a living aura glows brightly.  This allows a mage to cast even in pitch black darkness.

The mage simply has to perceive his target, not see it (blind fire pertains to physical attacks).  If blindfolded, the mage can target anything or anyone he is touching, for example, because he knows the target is there.  He does not incur a "blind fire" penalty, because he isn't using physical sight.  One could grant a penalty based upon how much is touching, similar to visibility modifiers.