NEWS

Summoning horribly overpowered?

  • 103 Replies
  • 33015 Views

Cyber-Dave

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 139
« Reply #30 on: <12-17-13/1459:37> »
You do realize that if a spirit goes beyond a certain distance away (can't recall the exact distance at the moment, but it's not that far), the service it's on becomes a remote service burning all further services (no matter how many are left), right? The juice is not worth the squeeze on that.

I do realize, and I don't agree with your assessment. My opinion stands.

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #31 on: <12-17-13/1504:05> »
It ain't worth it to take damage summoning a spirit and take damage again binding it (so that it can stay around for more than just the next sunrise) just to use it one time. Sure it's possible, but it's not a particularly bright move and it's a serious waste of resources.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9922
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #32 on: <12-17-13/1507:14> »
Edit: Post withdrawn. Given the false claims regarding my thought process, I have no choice but to retire from this debate.
« Last Edit: <12-17-13/1515:50> by Michael Chandra »
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #33 on: <12-17-13/1509:28> »
Your GM overestimates the danger of spirit mobility: Manifestation is a Complex Action, which means the intended target has a chance to respond before the spirit can actually attack, at which point you get the "spirits are more easily gunned down than you think" bit again. Like Michael stated, we actually had an encounter in a Convention Mission where a spirit was able to enter the plane and Engulf the pilot (which in hindsight is a bit weird, in fact): a point of Edge and a burst took it down in a single action.
« Last Edit: <12-17-13/1523:38> by ZeConster »

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #34 on: <12-17-13/1535:12> »
Also, if you look at history here. Chandra and I do not get along and don't really agree on anything. If both he and I are saying basically the same thing, that should tell you something.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Cyber-Dave

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 139
« Reply #35 on: <12-17-13/1600:58> »
Also, if you look at history here. Chandra and I do not get along and don't really agree on anything. If both he and I are saying basically the same thing, that should tell you something.

A group of people, even a majority of people, agreeing on something does not prove that they are correct. That would be an argumentum ad populum. I accept the possibility that I am wrong. I am not so pretentious as to believe myself infallible. I also understand that the number of people that think summoning is balanced indicates something. But, I read your arguments, I read the rules very carefully for myself, I ran the math, and I don't agree with your analysis. For that matter, I also understand that, if this topic comes up as frequently as you all say it does, that too indicates something. And, those who have come here and posted their agreement with my summation, and my GM, have made points that synergize and mesh with my own perceptions. I don't think a technicality and the elements of setting brought up in this thread anywhere near justifies the strength of summoning. I don't think that the "distance clause" obviates the mobility of spirits and their danger. I do not think my GM overestimates their potential. I immediately, and on my own, found myself boggling at the same issues he did. And I think that maybe you guys should take some time to consider why this topic pops up as frequently as it does.

Like I said, I perceive a lot of the arguments in this thread as justifying the imbalance instead of addressing it. Now, its totally cool if you don't agree with my perception! I am not trying to convince anyone. And, again, I accept the very real possibility that I am the one who is wrong (though, up to now, I remain unconvinced of that). I just needed some feedback. I got that feedback (and I appreciate all of your help by the way! That thank you is for everyone in this thread, whether I agree with them or not). Now I have formed my own opinion. I do think summoning is horribly overpowered. I do think the game would be much better served by spirits using Force x2 to resist summoning and Forcex3 to resist binding. With that small change, I am happy with the state of the game.

But, I am also happy to make that small change as a house rule! I think that Catalyst should gear their official rules towards the tastes of the majority of their fan base, whatever those tastes might be. My change is for my table only (if and when I find the time to run a game). And, it would seem, my GMs table, as he also seemed to be happy with my suggestion (which is, to be quite frank, unlikely to apply to anyone except for, maybe, me--if my primary character has a run of bad luck, and I choose to run the one backup character who has summoning. I originally created this rule in order to apply it to MY OWN backup character in order to bring its power into line with what I would be happy to see at a theoretical table I was GMing).   
« Last Edit: <12-17-13/1608:26> by Cyber-Dave »

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #36 on: <12-17-13/1633:43> »
Summoning isn't as powerful as you believe, reducing our arguments to "a technicality" when you've ignored many of our arguments is insulting, and making Binding (which already costs [Force x 500]¥) even more difficult than it already is is crippling. A4BG's statement was meant to show you this isn't a groupthink issue on our end, and you didn't even understand that. You're welcome to your opinion, but it's wrong.

Godwyn

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 65
« Reply #37 on: <12-17-13/1643:55> »
What does taking out a pilot really matter anyways?  All vehicles in SR have pilot autosofts that automatically take control if the vehicle seems to be out of control.   Or send a signal and have the emergency rigger support jump in to the plane from flight control.  So unless a plane crashes in a single combat turn, it isn't going to.

Even while astral, spirits have limited ability to move through solid objects.  Also, any "bunker" will have astral barriers put up as well.  Why?  Its the sixth world, magic security is as much part of security as meat or matrix.  Saying its a bunker without any astral protection is like complaining that a bunker is too easy to walk up to and place 100kg of explosives and destroy because there is no one watching the walls.  Setting up decent astral barriers is cheap and easy, and any place worth guarding will have at least a few at their points of access.

Oooh, or a fully automated bunker that has no excess room for a spirit to materialize in.  Bit of a hacker playground though...

Although he has withdrawn from the thread, what Chandra said stands well.  Magic, and spirits in particular, require more thought, knowledge, and work on the part of the GM.  If the GM does so, average force ( less than 7) are not a problem.  And by using the edge on oversummoning, higher force spirits are not a problem for a long time.  I have not seen a very high karma game yet, but I can see them eventually becoming a problem.

Distance scouting?  What about a drone, or hacking a satellite feed.  Just look at google earth.  Add 60 years, and see what kind of information a hacker can pull off the matrix.  And what if a spirit does kill several people in a bunker?  Good job, the spirit has no way of preventing the alarms from going out and massive response teams arriving, and then learning the mages signature.  The astral signature of a strong spirit will last hours.  Good way to build notoriety and public awareness, and spirit disdain as I doubt most of them like being used as assassins.  And the people it killed?  Lives are cheap to the corps, there are always more.

I both GM and play in SR campaigns.  From the email from your GM, it sounds like he just hasn't adjusted to how to run SR.  Actually, from some of the statements I would question whether he should include magic or the matrix at all.  It seems he wants to plan just for the meat world, and doesn't understand why things aren't working when the players are operating on 3 planes instead of the 1 he is constraining himself to.  Drek, chummer, one of the flavor stories in the core book is a hacker crashing a helicopter with just a few actions.  So yeah, maybe a fire spirit can do the same?  IF the group has a decker, he needs to operate on the matrix for his plans as well.  If the group has magic, he needs to know the awakened world.  Either one will wreck his game if he doesn't. 

And adding astral barriers an arms race that leaves out other PC's?  How so?  Other PC's, unless awakened, don't give drek about a mana barrier.  Cybersammies walk through them all day.  The tingle is refreshing.  Spirits that aren't manifested have some serious watching problems unless supplemented.  Can't actually see, they just astrally perceive.  They cant see through glass, or any other material that is transparent (or opaque ones obviously).  Waiting up in the sky?  Drones probably are to, if you are trying to be stealthy and not prepared for those angles, the stealthier needs practice.  Also, again a mage in astral does drek all to non-awakened.  Unless you have some poor dual natured critters or HMHVV metas about I suppose.

And a gunship. GUNSHIP, but no magic means they aren't really responding to a threat.  And the people in that gunship will shred a spirit pretty fast.  And the mage better be gone by the time it arrives, missiles and HMG suppressive fire make short work of invisible mages that can't hide from their ultrasound and nonlight based detection methods installed in the sensor suite.  -6 blindfire applies to neither.  Also, a sniper rappelled out of the gunship onto a good overview spot before it fully arrived.  Now providing overwatch, and can shoot either the mage, or into the vehicle to shoot tricksy spirits.  14p -7ap (before net hits) and no defense due to surprise is pretty effective.  With some net hits it is quite likely to one shot a spirit below force 8.

I can go on.  Honestly, in the campaign I run the Super Troll is far more difficult to plan for than the others.  He is an adept, but could do what he does just fine as cyber as well.  40 damage resistance and swinging combat axe for 18p -4ap? before net hits, or full auto with the machine gun.  He is their Elliott, with guns (Leverage reference).  But he does his job well, when the drek hits the fan, he tears down the ceiling the fan is hooked to.

Actually, if your GM wants some help with stuff, he can always post in the boards here while working on a run and get advice from experienced GM's.  Simple and elegant solution.  Or he can nerf spirits of course, if none of the mages/summoners mind. 

Godwyn

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 65
« Reply #38 on: <12-17-13/1646:24> »
You say you have worked out the math?  Care to share it with us?  I am a figures oriented person, if the math is accurate and really does show spirits to be overpowered, I would like to see it so I can see if I need to adjust things for my campaign.  I do worry about high force spirits once the mages initiate and raise magic and summoning skills.  That is pretty far down the line karma wise, but never too early to start planning.

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #39 on: <12-17-13/1711:14> »
I apologize if the tone of my previous post was a bit harsh: having someone insult my "thought process" tends to do that. In the spirit of keeping a positive note, I've decided to use song:

♪ You say summoning's overpowered ♪
♪ But don't speak from experience ♪
♪ You nerf without proper consideration ♪
♪ Which I believe makes little sense ♪

♪ While Immunity is troubling ♪
♪ Bursts with strong guns can save the day ♪
♪ So even mundane street sams ♪
♪ Can celebrate with a 'hurray!' ♪

♪ You say their astral speed's a danger ♪
♪ But it's a Complex to shift planes ♪
♪ Before the spirit can engage in combat ♪
♪ Its foes get a chance to spill its brains ♪

♪ I've heard it both ways ♪
♪ The right way and then yours ♪
♪ I've heard it both ways ♪
♪ Let's not open any sores ♪
♪ I've heard it right and wrong ♪
♪ Don't ping my pong anymore ♪
« Last Edit: <12-17-13/1713:00> by ZeConster »

Beaumis

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 255
« Reply #40 on: <12-17-13/2049:18> »
Quote
I believe that the group of people who believe that summoning is not overpowered are so used to overpowered summing, and so used to shadowrun, that they have come to justify the imbalance instead of addressing it.
Quote
I am not so pretentious as to believe myself infallible.
You do realize that your first statement basically reads: "You are wrong because I alone am enlightened enough to see the truth, therefore I am right", do you? Your second statement bought you the benefit of the doubt, but I would suggest you rephrase the first one anyway. As it stands, it's a major insult to a lot of people's intelligence and quite arrogant.

Quote
It's not just the potential damage output and defences of spirits that makes them dangerous their mobility is a huge edge. The posters don't take into a account that spirits clan fly invisible through astral space at near light speeds and then manifest themselves at where their target happens to be. Incoming enemy gunship- no problem have the fire elemental manifest in the cockpit. Enemy guards have cover in a bunker- again no problem. Of course there are counter measures (like always having an elemental or two traveling with your choppers or having a mage in astral to back them up, having astral barriers protect your bunkers etc…), but then you risk getting into a nasty arms race that I think can easily leave other PCs out in the cold. Furthermore using such counter measures requires additional rules subsets to constantly be in play that can make an already complex game even more complicated.

I suppose if you strictly played shadowrun and got to know the system inside out it probably wouldn't be so bad, but when you run it on a more occasional basis and don't have time to commit to learning each rule subsystem inside out, toning back certain elements makes sense.
Say Hi to your GM for me. Also tell him that I do take the spirits mobility into account. Its just a non issue because:

1. Corps that fly into a combat zone have spirits of their own to defend their aircraft. There is such a thing as standart operating procedure. Corp security are para military groups. They don't send out choppers without magical support. If a GM is too lazy to deal with that, have the spirits just counter each other and thus take them out of the equation. Problem solved.

2. The described situation might be overpowered if the magician was the only one who could take out the pilot of the approaching aircraft. But he isn't. The decker can brick the aircrafts controls, the rigger can launch drones, the sam can use his sniper rifle. Or, given that you are talking high force spirits, his assault cannon or rocket launcher.

3. Bunkers are fortified defensive positions, fixed in relation to the Gaia-Sphere. Any Corp that builds a bunker and does not ward it (Ritual P.297) deserves to have a spirit blow it up. Not warding it is akin to having a bunker with hardened armor and a wooden door. Being a defensive structure against all possible methods of intrusion is the point of a bunker. Their security systems interrogate fresh air before they let it in.

4. Elementals cannot operate outside of 100*Magic meters of the magicians range or it becomes a remote service. Spirits are sentient beings, but they are not all knowing and they are limited to their senses. Unless a magician can describe a persons aura in sufficient detail, the spirit will not be able to pick out its target beyond the most basic of features. Spirits ALWAYS perceive astrally, never physically.
Quote
When materialized, the spirit uses astral perception (its only perception) to perceive the physical world.
(P. 301 Core)
The spirit may be able to get where you want it to go, but your description of the person means nothing to the spirit. If you want to use a spirit as a hit and run attacker that approaches his target invisibly, you will have to assense his aura to a degree that allows you to recognize it again and then relay that information to the spirit.  In your gunship example, unless you can describe the pilots aura or his position relative to the shape of the aircraft, you have about a 1/x chance to get the pilot, where x is the number of people inside the aircraft.

5. If the spirits leaves the radius mentioned earlier, it becomes a remote service and all remaining services are gone once the task is finished. You don't even get a success report. If the spirit is bound this does not happen and the spirit returns.

6. The refered to arms race has been in progress ever since the awakening and its part of the fundamental setting of Shadowrun. It is also the very reason why most Shadowrunners refrain from using excessive amounts of magic (aka overkill), because it is a race they cannot win. The corp is already further along and just needs to activate those assets. The only rules required here are the ones presented in the basic rulebook and a simple "right tool for the job" approach. You don't use a F10 spirit when a F5 one will do, just like you don't lob grenades to stop a pickpocket. The colateral damage is simply not in your interests.
Heck, the reason most NPC Shadowrunning teams have a mage is so they can counter the corps mages. Not the other way around.

7. Granted, if you are lazy and do not want to read the rules, eliminating the elements you do not fully understand is a sound approach. There is however a vast difference between saying "I do not understand it and therefore believe it could unbalance my game" and your combined "spirits are overpowered". One is a table limitation, the other is a judgement on the system as a whole.

Godwyn makes many valid points, especially concerning that impression that both you and your GM seem unwilling to deal with the multi plane approach of the Shadowrun setting. If you want to treat the game as a glorified cyberpunk system, that's your call and none here will critizise you for playing the game in a way that's fun for you. But there is a vast difference between playing the game your way and making a statement regarding the systems integrity and people's understanding of it.

I'd also like a look at that math of yours if you don't mind.


Cyber-Dave

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 139
« Reply #41 on: <12-17-13/2140:51> »
Quote
I believe that the group of people who believe that summoning is not overpowered are so used to overpowered summing, and so used to shadowrun, that they have come to justify the imbalance instead of addressing it.
Quote
I am not so pretentious as to believe myself infallible.
You do realize that your first statement basically reads: "You are wrong because I alone am enlightened enough to see the truth, therefore I am right", do you? Your second statement bought you the benefit of the doubt, but I would suggest you rephrase the first one anyway. As it stands, it's a major insult to a lot of people's intelligence and quite arrogant.

Look, I am terribly sorry if it sounds offensive to you. I am not trying to offend anyone. I am describing my honest perception in regards to the attitude about summoning I am witnessing in this thread. I do not think I am the only intelligent person here, nor do I think I am the most intelligent. I do not think that everyone who believes that summoning is balanced is not intelligent (though I do think they are deluding themselves on this one topic). And, I accept that I might be wrong and you might be right. If someone finds it offensive that I believe that some of you are deluding yourselves, I am terribly sorry. I don't know what to say. That is what I believe. I don't want to offend you. And, I accept that I might be deluding myself, so I am painting all of us with the same brush. So... it is what it is.

On to math. I don't have the time to recreate all of the functions I checked. I was not saving my work the first time around. I will post the function that convinced me that a serious problem is present. But my time just got cut short, so I can't double check everything right now. I will put it up soon (probably some time tomorrow).

All4BigGuns

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 7531
« Reply #42 on: <12-17-13/2204:57> »
Just try it as written using the advice given here. You'll probably find that everything works out fine in practice. Remember, theory and practice are two different things.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #43 on: <12-17-13/2230:13> »
If you don't want to offend, maybe you shouldn't be using the term "deluding", especially since you admit to not even knowing for sure if you're correct (self-doubt and thinking the other side is deluding themselves are contradictory things). A simple "wrong about this matter" would've been a far better alternative to "I don't mean to offend, but I'm going to use an offensive term anyway".

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #44 on: <12-17-13/2238:15> »
I think your biggest problem is that you believe that everything has to be balanced.


Let you in on a little secret, Nothing in life is fair OR balanced :P

And this holds true to games as well.

Are spirits powerful? Yes.

Are Mages Powerful? Yes.

Are Mages and/or spirits MORE powerful then any other archtype? No.

If you take the time and effort to look at mages and/or Spirits and all the other archtypes on the whole, they are neither more powerful, nor weaker then anyone else. Yes, they might excel in a very narrow margin of activities, but that always comes at the expense of something else (For mages, that is usually the Matrix)

Or your GM's statements sums this up beautifully. He and you have yet to take the time to explore the game system in it's entirely and are just looking at a very narrow scope and wigging out. This is actually a common thing (just take the time to look of the forums, there are literally HUNDREDS of threads started on this very topic.... averaging about 1 every 2 to 3 weeks.)


*****

I have played Shadowrun since 1e... and have GM'd Shadowrun on a regular basis since 2e. In all that time, once I got a good grip on ALL the rules, I have never felt that magic and/or Spirits are over powered. This is cause I understand that that spirits and magic have their own built in limitations, and I employ them.... Much to the determent of several "number crunching" mage players (who did not understand the limitations of magic and spirits).

As many here have said, Magic is a double edged sword..... Using magic can harm... even KILL the mage, and no other archtype (save maybe technomancers) suffer just a consequence from using their base skillset...

A Rigger doesn't face the potential of self damage rigging a drone or vehicle
A Face doesn't face the potential of self damage from talking to an NPC
A Samurai doesn't face the potential of self damage from using the automatics skill
A Decker doesn't face the potential of self damage for using computer skills

HOWEVER

A Mage/shaman faces potential self damage from using the conjuring skill
A Mage/Shaman faces potential self damage from using the Spellcasting skill

I (and many others here) have seen mages lay themselves out with their first spell/summoning for the rest of the game thanks to a single bad roll..... no matter how well built the character is.

I (and many others here) have seen mages KILL themselves with a single spell/summoning, thanks to a poor roll.

This is a danger no other archtype (except for technomancers) have to face.




BUT:
at the end of the day, it is your table and your game. Houserule it all you want. But I doubt you will find much support for it here.


@ All4BigGuns:

Beer would be awesome!!! But I signed a contract for this current job.... no booze or drugs on site :(    (ONLY 2 DAYS TO GO!!!!!!!!! THEN IT IS ALL I CAN GUZZLE!!!!) The things you sign for $72.75/hr and double time on weekends  :o :o
« Last Edit: <12-17-13/2239:47> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.