[Michael Chandra]

You command the Spirit to do combat. It then does combat as it pleases. The GM decides what the Spirit does. If the player wants more control, they must command the Spirit for extra services, or hope they treated Spirits nice and the Spirit (read: GM) decides to handwave it for now. Like I already said and you quoted:

The player can command a Spirit to perform battle, yes. The Spirit then uses any powers it desires for performing that task without extra services. However, the player has no say whatsoever in what powers the Spirit uses! If they do command the Spirit to use a specific Power, that is called a Power Service and costs 1 Service. So the player cannot go "use power X on this guy, then Y on that guy, then kill them all" for a single service.

And they detonate and go boom, yes. That results in an AoE effect. It nowhere says they count as grenades for ANYTHING but the scatter test.

[sn0mm1s]

No, you are reading that wrong. Plus - what the point of the summoner being able to mentally communicate with the spirit during combat if he can't direct him to do something.

Power Use is a completely separate service from Combat - which is why the clarification is there. Why give a Spirit of Man a fireball spell if you can't tell it to cast the spell? Or Heal? Or whatever.

The explosion rules aren't grenade specific. They are explosion/blast specific.

[ZeConster]

If you tell a spirit to battle for you and then tell it to use a specific power (rather than "which fleshbag do I destroy next?" "the big troll that's shooting at me!"), instead of the spirit deciding on its own to use that power, I definitely think that uses an extra service.

And of course, any player who tries to argue that if you make multiple spells go off at the same time, the "multiple simultaneous blasts" rule, which specifically says "When multiple explosives detonate at once", apply to the spells, deserves simultaneous phonebooking. The Combat spells section simply says you use the same kind of test to place the center of your area spell as you do when throwing grenades.

[Michael Chandra]

So to summarize. You read the rules in a way that gives players a lot of freedom, despite my interpretation that gives them less freedom, then complain Summoning is broken, correct?

Let me try this one by one, since you claim I'm reading things wrong.

1: Where does it say you can COMMAND a Spirit to use a specific power during Combat as part of the Combat service?
2: Where does it say you cannot let a Spirit use Fireball as Power Service?
3: Where does it say AoE spells are included in the explosion rules, rather than just the threshold test to determine scatter?

Let me help you answer 3: Blast Effects says "Grenades, rockets, and missiles are area-effect weapons, meaning that their blast affects a given area and any targets within it." Chunky salsa and overlapping explosives talk about blasts, grenades and explosives, not spells.

[sn0mm1s]

1: Where does it say you can COMMAND a Spirit to use a specific power during Combat?
2: Where does it say you cannot let a Spirit use Fireball as Power Service?
3: Where does it say AoE spells are included in the explosion rules, rather than just the threshold test to determine scatter?

Let me help you answer 3: Blast Effects says "Grenades, rockets, and missiles are area-effect weapons, meaning that their blast affects a given area and any targets within it." Chunky salsa and overlapping explosives talk about blasts, grenades and explosives, not spells.

1) Power Use.
2) Not following you here - you get to command spirit to use a Power - see answer #1.
3) It says explosions follow those rules.

When two explosions occur on the same
Combat Initiative Score and both blasts effect the same
character add half the value of the lower DVs to the
highest DV and apply it all as a single modified Damage
Value for the purposes of Damage Resistance tests. For
AP calculations, use the best AP and improve it by 1 for
every additional explosion.

Let me help you answer 3. Since it doesn't specifically mention plastic explosives does that mean it they don't follow rules? How about a room filled up with a flammable gas - that isn't anywhere in the rules that I know of - does *that* not follow the explosion rules? Fireball, in its description is an explosion. It all seems rather self explanatory.

[Michael Chandra]

A flammable gas would be an explosive. An AoE spell is not an explosive, it is a spell. Blasts do not work with spells, they work with grenades, missiles, rockets and once more splatbooks come out they likely will work with other types of explosives as well. The Explosives on p436 state they have Blast values. Spells do not. Without a Blast value, no Blast, so no Overlapping Blasts either.

Power Use does NOT say you can COMMAND a Spirit to use a specific power during Combat. It simply says that if the spirit uses a power as part of another task, it doesn't count as a separate service. Nothing there states that if during another task you ask for it to use a specific Power, it doesn't count. Please don't make unsupported claims.

[ZeConster]

1: Where does it say you can COMMAND a Spirit to use a specific power during Combat?
2: Where does it say you cannot let a Spirit use Fireball as Power Service?

1) Power Use.
2) Not following you here - you get to command spirit to use a Power - see answer #1.

I think his point with #1 and #2 is that you said this:

Power Use is a completely separate service from Combat - which is why the clarification is there. Why give a Spirit of Man a fireball spell if you can't tell it to cast the spell? Or Heal? Or whatever.

Which is a faulty line of reasoning on your end, because you can still use a Power Use Service to tell that spirit to cast a specific spell- but if it's performing a Combat Service and you tell it to use a specific power, that counts as a seperate Power Use Service.

[sn0mm1s]

A flammable gas would be an explosive. An AoE spell is not an explosive, it is a spell. Blasts do not work with spells, they work with grenades, missiles, rockets and once more splatbooks come out they likely will work with other types of explosives as well. The Explosives on p436 state they have Blast values. Spells do not. Without a Blast value, no Blast, so no Overlapping Blasts either.

Power Use does NOT say you can COMMAND a Spirit to use a specific power during Combat. It simply says that if the spirit uses a power as part of another task, it doesn't count as a separate service. Nothing there states that if during another task you ask for it to use a specific Power, it doesn't count. Please don't make unsupported claims.

Christ.

OK. I summon a spirit and I say help me with Combat.

Power use: You can have a spirit use one of its powers
on a target or targets of your choosing. If the power
is sustained, it counts as one service no matter how long
it’s sustained. If the spirit uses a power as part of another
task (often in combat), then the power use doesn’t count
as a separate service.

As a service I can have the spirit use a power on a target of my choosing. You know what I choose? Innate Spell on the troll.

Power use: You can have a spirit use one of its powers
on a target or targets of your choosing. If the power
is sustained, it counts as one service no matter how long
it’s sustained. If the spirit uses a power as part of another
task (often in combat), then the power use doesn’t count
as a separate service.

Hey... look at that. If I use "Power Use" during combat it doesn't count as a separate service.

[Michael Chandra]

Hey... look at that. If I use "Power Use" during combat it doesn't count as a separate service.

No it doesn't.

Please actually read what the rules say and what we said. Arguing the rules say X when they do not in fact say X doesn't help anyone.

[Michael Chandra]

The player can command a Spirit to perform battle, yes. The Spirit then uses any powers it desires for performing that task without extra services. However, the player has no say whatsoever in what powers the Spirit uses! If they do command the Spirit to use a specific Power, that is called a Power Service and costs 1 Service. So the player cannot go "use power X on this guy, then Y on that guy, then kill them all" for a single service.

[ZeConster]

"the spirit uses a power as part of another task" is not the same as "the spirit is performing one task, and you give it a second task which it executes immediately, then continues with the first task".

[sn0mm1s]

The player can command a Spirit to perform battle, yes. The Spirit then uses any powers it desires for performing that task without extra services. However, the player has no say whatsoever in what powers the Spirit uses! If they do command the Spirit to use a specific Power, that is called a Power Service and costs 1 Service. So the player cannot go "use power X on this guy, then Y on that guy, then kill them all" for a single service.

You see, this is *your* rule. Show me the rule in the book where it says the GM takes control. Show me where it says the player has no say in what the spirit actually does. I am quoting the rule directly. While a spirit is fulfilling a combat service, power use isn't counted as a service.

[ZeConster]

I am quoting the rule directly. While a spirit is fulfilling a combat service, power use isn't counted as a service.

You may be quoting the rule directly, but you immediately follow that with what is simply your interpretation of it. Like I said: "the spirit uses a power as part of another task" is not the same as "the spirit is performing one task, and you give it a second task which it executes immediately, then continues with the first task". The first is what happens if the spirit decides on its own to use a power when performing a combat service, the second is what happens if you give it orders to use a specific power while it is performing a combat service.

[Reaver]

look, it's actually fairly simple.


If you summon a spirit and ask it to fight for you that is one (1) service.

The spirit must fight to the best of it's ability. Which means it will use it's powers and spells to achieve the most efficient results (NOTE: the tactics the spirit uses MAY be entirely different from the tactics you wish, depending on how you worded your request!) IF the spirit chooses on it own accord to cast a spell or use an ability, that does not count as an extra service.


IF during the combat you ask the spirit to use a specific ability or spell, then you are requesting an additional service. and that will consume one (1) service owed.



AS to over lapping blast effects: this is the rules and what is listed under each item:

SR 5 pages 182-183 Bold and underling by me

Blast Effects
Grenades, rockets, and missiles are area-effect weapons,
meaning that their blast affects a given area and
any targets within it. The farther away the target is from
the explosive’s final location—the blast point—the less
damage it takes, because distance reduces the effect of
an explosive’s blast.Different grenade, rocket, and missile types lose
blast effect at different rates. Consult the Grenades/
Rockets/Missiles Table (p. 435) to find the projectile’s
Damage Code and Damage Value reduction rate.

There is no mention of spells, or spell effects.

now, we look at multiple blasts:

SR 5, page 183 bold, by me

When multiple explosives detonate at once the effects
are similar to those of a blast in a confined space (more
chunky salsa). When two explosions occur on the same
Combat Initiative Score and both blasts effect the same
character add half the value of the lower DVs to the
highest DV and apply it all as a single modified Damage
Value for the purposes of Damage Resistance tests. For
AP calculations, use the best AP and improve it by 1 for
every additional explosion.

It clearly says Explosives, (not Explosions)... Do we really need to list what is an explosive and what is not?

SR 5, page 283

...The test is like that for grenades (p. 181):
a Spellcasting + Magic [Force] (3) Test with scatter of 2D6
meters. Unlike grenades, you get to add your net hits on
this test to the Damage Value of the spell, but only if you
beat the threshold; otherwise the spell still detonates, but
the hits are used to reduce scatter by one meter per hit....

They have gone through a lot of trouble to tell you that AoE spells act like grenades for scatter purposes... but make NO mention of confined space rules, or overlapping detonation, or "chunky salsa"

Spells also affect everything with (force) meters radius from the detonation point equally, unlike grenades that do LESS damage the further away from the detonation point....




****

One of the biggest mistakes many people make with magic is they try to apply scientific laws to the effects. YOU CAN NOT DO THIS!!! Why? Cause it's magic! Magic breaks all the scientific laws, and follows it's own magical laws. The two are rarely the same.

[Unahim]

Just chiming in here to add my voice to the discussion. All the "uses of powers don't count as an extra service" line does is make it so that if and when the spirit uses powers during a Combat service (out of its own volition) it doesn't cost you 1 service per power, since they're all included in the "Combat" service; however, that doesn't mean that you get to decide which powers the spirit uses as part of its Combat service. Telling it to use a specific power is not covered by the Combat service, and thus falls under Power Use, and costs a service.

As to "why do you have a mental connection to the spirit then?" (which, I might add, is a very underhanded debate tactic and not necessarily relevant): So that you can be kept up-to-date on its status, so that you can issue a new service when needed, so that you can give the spirit suggestions about tactics which could be employed (suggestions! not commands!). The list is limitless, and implying that mental connection is a vote in favour for your view, sn0mm1s, seems disrespectful.

Really, I'm usually against "majority rules" on debates like this, but this is such an old and venerable ruling and you are quite literally the only one here holding your view... if you are not convinced yet, I respectfully ask you to ask clarification in the FAQ thread, and await an answer there, since obviously the debate here has reached an impasse then.