Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: 8-bit on <08-25-14/0331:09>
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Under the Improved Reflexes power, it says that it does not stack with any other boosts (magical or technological) to Initiative. I'm assuming that means stuff like Synaptic Boosters? I want to know if Suprathyroid Gland counts, since it does increase your Reaction, which increases initiative. So, there are 3 situations I can think of that would apply here.
1) They stack, no problems.
2) They don't stack, and I have to pick one or the other.
3) They don't stack, but I still get the other bonuses from Suprathyroid Gland except for Reaction
Anyone know how this works?
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Great question!
Any improvements to Reaction do thus increase Initiative, but the bonus from a Suprathyroid Gland does not directly affect Initiative Dice, like Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Boosters. Thus, I would argue that the bonus is stacking so long as it doesn't give more than +4 bonus. The only circumstance in which someone can break that +4 bonus is with drugs.
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It's a matter of some debate: on one extreme you even have people who say that Adrenaline Rush, since it impacts the broader 'concept' of Initiative, doesn't stack with anything.
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Afb do can't check wording on gland, but if it is compatible with magic increase to reaction then they both stack for the purpose of calculating your pilot dice pool or your defense dice pool.
You can have both but only count either the adept power or glands when it comes to initiative since the adept power is not compatible with glands when it comes to initiative.
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I usually treat this as a two-part problem, using the wired reflexes / reaction enhancers guideline.
Wired reflexes are a two-part system: the Reaction boost, and the Reflex (initiative) boost. Reaction enhancers increase only Reaction. They don't stack with reaction enhancers, except for when you have both of them on wireless mode; choose one or the other. However, when the person who has both isn't running them both on wireless, he can choose which one applies to each increase; he could have, for example, the reaction enhancers applying to Reaction, and the wired reflexes applying to Initiative.
In my mind, the same goes with any other multiple-enhancement system; the FAQ supports this interpretation. If you have multiple boosts to X, you have to pick which boost applies from time to time. Since the suprathyroid gland supplies only a +1 Reaction, and Improved Reflexes supplies its level, at any level besides 1 it makes more sense to apply the adept power.
Overall, however, it's stated that things don't stack - but remember also that reaction is now seperate from initiative.
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Book is pretty clear that you can still activate two augmentations that are incompatible, but if they are incompatible you have to choose which augmentation bonus you use and when.
According to the book; Initiative is made up by three parts. Initiative Attribute, Initiative Dice and Initiative Score.
The adept power is not incompatible with enhancements to Initiative Dice, but to Initiative (which by definition include Attribute, Dice and Score). This mean it is incompatible with augmentations that increase Initiative Attribute (such as Glands) for the purpose of calculating Initiative. But it is compatible with augmentations to reaction (such as Glands) for the purpose of calculating your pilot dice pool.
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uh the Suprathyroid enhances your REACTION attribute NOT your INITIATIVE directly.
This means it WILL stack with any enhancement that only affects your INITIATIVE.
It will ALSO stack with any REACTION enhancement up to the augmented maximum unless the other one says specifically it won't.
Improved Reflexes clearly states it won't work, so your SOL.
BTW there ain't such thing as a wireless Suprathyroid gland....at least not yet there ain't...
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Book is pretty clear that you can still activate two augmentations that are incompatible, but if they are incompatible you have to choose which augmentation bonus you use and when.
According to the book; Initiative is made up by three parts. Initiative Attribute, Initiative Dice and Initiative Score.
The adept power is not incompatible with enhancements to Initiative Dice, but to Initiative (which by definition include Attribute, Dice and Score). This mean it is incompatible with augmentations that increase Initiative Attribute (such as Glands) for the purpose of calculating Initiative. But it is compatible with augmentations to reaction (such as Glands) for the purpose of calculating your pilot dice pool.
And this would be the "one extreme" I spoke about.
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Not sure most people would find it extreme that you can't improve your initiative with both improved reflexes and adrenaline rush at the same time ;)
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Not sure most people would find it extreme that you can't improve your initiative with both improved reflexes and adrenaline rush at the same time ;)
I call "in this sentence, when they say "Reaction", they mean the Reaction Attribute, but when in the very next sentence, they say "Initiative", they mean the broader concept, not the Attribute" pretty extreme.
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Are you seriously suggesting that improved reflexes, that give up to 3 extra initiative dice, is compatible with further magical or technological increases to initiative dice?
Interesting...
I don't share that interpretation (the book define initiative as attribute, score and dice - not just attribute), but still interesting :)
SR5 p. 159 Initiative
Initiative determines the order in which characters act, as well as how often they act during a single Combat Turn. Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice.
Improved Reflexes + Initiative above and you get:
...the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice.
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I am not going through this farce of an argument again, where you pretend the existence of a broader concept named "Initiative" somehow means every single time "Initiative" is mentioned in the book it refers to the concept, not the Attribute, and act like the burden of proof lies with me, then when I do go through the almost 500 uses of the word "Initiative" in the book, completely disregard my conclusions.
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Fair enough.
But just to be clear (i will not push it further beyond this post and a simple "Yes" or "No" is enough);
...by your reading, do you consider that:
"Improved Reflexes can be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative Dice"
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Only if that something doesn't also increase Reaction, Intuition, or the Initiative Attribute directly.
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Been reading through the book again, using your point of view (that when they type Initiative they specifically mean Initiative Attribute) and I can now see how it can be read that way (doesn't mean I agree with this interpretation, just that I now have an understanding that the book might or might not be ambiguous).
All technological and magical increases to Initiative Dice also seem to increase Initiative Attribute (either direct or indirect) so they would still be incompatible with your reading. None of them are specifically incompatible with increases to Initiative Score. The only game mechanic difference it seem to have is that Adrenaline Boost (that increase Initiative Score, and not Initiative [Attribute]) would now be compatible with pretty much everything that is incompatible with Initiative [Attribute] (but then again Initiative Score is derived from both Initiative Dice and Attribute....)
In the case of OP it would have no impact at all (unless I misunderstood you). Improved Reflexes would still be compatible with Glands for the purpose of calculating the pilot skill dice pool and it would still be incompatible with Glands for the purpose of calculating the Initiative [Attribute].
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For what it's worth, I've always interpreted that Initiative is a derived attribute, and that Initiative Dice is something wholly different. There are no items in the game (that I can recall at the moment anyway) that increase Initiative directly. Instead, the increases are always to Reaction or Intuition. The only difference is in providing additional Initiative Dice, which do not stack. As a result, so long as your Reaction and Intuition bonuses don't go over your augmented maximum, your Initiative can be whatever the hell it wants to be.
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There are no items in the game (that I can recall at the moment anyway) that increase Initiative directly...
SR5 p. 288 Increase Reflexes
This spell increases the initiative of a subject. Each hit rolled on the Spellcasting Test adds +1 to the target’s Initiative, and every two hits adds one Initiative Die. A character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell at a time, and the maximum Initiative Dice anyone can have is +5D6.
You can for example stack Increase Reflexes, Increase Reaction, Increase Intuition, Jazz and Adrenaline Boost for a really really high Initiative Attribute, Initiative Dice and Initiative Score. With 4 hits in each spell you are actually looking at an Initiative Score of +12 from Initiative Attribute (plus your regular Initiative Attribute), +4D6 Initiative Dice (plus your regular 1D6 Initiative Dice) plus another +2 Initiative Score per level of Adrenaline Boost.
...so long as your Reaction and Intuition bonuses don't go over your augmented maximum...
Augmentations (cyberware and bioware) cannot exceed the Augmented maximum unless they explicit state so (most don't, but not all). Other enhancements (such as drugs, magic etc.) actually don't have this limit unless they explicit state so (most do, but not all).
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SR5 p. 288 Increase Reflexes
This spell increases the initiative of a subject. Each hit rolled on the Spellcasting Test adds +1 to the target’s Initiative, and every two hits adds one Initiative Die. A character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell at a time, and the maximum Initiative Dice anyone can have is +5D6.
You can for example stack Increase Reflexes, Increase Reaction, Increase Intuition, Jazz and Adrenaline Boost for a really really high Initiative Attribute, Initiative Dice and Initiative Score. With 4 hits in each spell you are actually looking at an Initiative Score of +12 from Initiative Attribute (plus your regular Initiative Attribute), +4D6 Initiative Dice (plus your regular 1D6 Initiative Dice) plus another +2 Initiative Score per level of Adrenaline Boost.
Augmentations (cyberware and bioware) cannot exceed the Augmented maximum unless they explicit state so (most don't, but not all). Other enhancements (such as drugs, magic etc.) actually don't have this limit unless they explicit state so (most do, but not all).
... wow. So a decently-skilled adept (some Karma under his belt, Reaction and Intuition both at 6 for a base Initiative of 12, with 6 levels in Adrenaline Boost, for +12 Initiative) with a decently-skilled mage-friend (call it 8 successes with Increase Reflexes, Quickened, for +8 Initiative and +4d6, as well as 4 successes on each Increased Attribute spell for Reaction and Intuition, for another +8) is going to be hitting ... 12 + 12 + 8 + 8 = 40 + 5d6.
I ... had never really looked at this that closely before. And this, of course, is if that Increased Reflexes spell gets only 8 hits ... and a mage with his own bit of karma under his belt is going to have an Astral Limit of 8+, so 10 or higher is not impossible. Heck, with his own enhancements ... 14. Which would add another 6 points, to make it 46 + 5d6, averaging a score of *mumble mumble* 63.5, minimum 51, maximum 76. And of course, so long as the adept can soak the Drain from Adrenaline Boost every Turn (which amounts to getting six hits on that Body + Willpower test), he can keep that going.
.... cripes.
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SR5 p. 288 Increase Reflexes
This spell increases the initiative of a subject. Each hit rolled on the Spellcasting Test adds +1 to the target’s Initiative, and every two hits adds one Initiative Die. A character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell at a time, and the maximum Initiative Dice anyone can have is +5D6.
You can for example stack Increase Reflexes, Increase Reaction, Increase Intuition, Jazz and Adrenaline Boost for a really really high Initiative Attribute, Initiative Dice and Initiative Score. With 4 hits in each spell you are actually looking at an Initiative Score of +12 from Initiative Attribute (plus your regular Initiative Attribute), +4D6 Initiative Dice (plus your regular 1D6 Initiative Dice) plus another +2 Initiative Score per level of Adrenaline Boost.
I can't tell if you were trying to counter my statement or not, Xenon. Cause it sure seems like you are proving my point that the Improved Reflexes adept power and the Suprathyroid Gland should stack. Not that anything that you said actually directly relates to the discussion of these two elements, it's just that if all these other things can stack... why not let the adept power and bioware stack?
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Increase Reflexes is an example of an increase that affect Initiative directly (you said there was none). Sorry if this was not clear.
... why not let the adept power and bioware stack?
Because according to the book; the adept power Improved Reflexes cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative while the spell Increase Reflexes can...
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Because according to the book; the adept power Improved Reflexes cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative while the spell Increase Reflexes can...
But the Suprathyroid Gland doesn't increase Initiative. It increases the stats that contribute to Initiative. After all, Initiative is a derived attribute:
The Initiative Attribute is a derived attribute used to measure the speed, perceptiveness, and reaction rate of a combatant.
Physical Initiative is derived from Reaction + Intuition. The Suprathyroid gland doesn't increase Initiative, it increases Reaction. Since Reaction is used in a wide variety of tests and derived attributes (Initiative being one of them, but the defense pool is another) then yes, it stacks. All of this assumes, of course, that the character hasn't capped out at his augmented maximum.
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Improved reflexes and Glands stack for the purpose of calculating the defense dice pool size.
However, improved reflexes is incompatible with Glands for the purpose of calculating initiative.
SR5 p. 421 Incompatibility
When two items are incompatible ... you cannot use the effects of both items at the same time. If one item of gear says it’s incompatible and the other doesn’t, they’re incompatible. You can have both items if you want, you just have to pick what piece of gear to use at what time.
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SR5 p. 421 Incompatibility
When two items are incompatible ... you cannot use the effects of both items at the same time. If one item of gear says it’s incompatible and the other doesn’t, they’re incompatible. You can have both items if you want, you just have to pick what piece of gear to use at what time.
Where does it state that the Suprathyroid Gland is incompatible with augmentations to Reaction? Or, conversely, where does it state that Improved Reflexes is incompatible with augmentations to Reaction? Cause that's what we're talking about - not Initiative, not anything else. Just the Reaction attribute, which can be modified up to the augmented maximum.
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Improved Reflexes increase Reaction which also affects Initiative (the power even specifically point this out).
Improved Reflexes also increase Initiative Dice which, depending on your reading, also affects Initiative.
Improved Reflexes is incompatible with other technical or magical increases to Initiative.
Increase of Reaction is also an increase of Initiative
Increase of Intuition is also an increase of Initiative
Increase of Initiative Attribute is also an increase of Initiative
And, depending on your reading, an increase of Initiative Dice or Initiative Score is also an increase of Initiative.
Suprathyroid Gland increases Reaction which also affect Initiative.
There are three ways to read this.
1) Improved Reflexes is compatible with other technical or magical increases to Reaction and Intuition (and compatible with their indirect increase of Initiative Attribute) and is only incompatible with direct increases to the Initiative Attribute (and possible also Initiative Dice and Initiative Score). This is how I interpret that you seem to read it Namikaze.... If you also consider that Improved Reflexes is compatible with increases to Initiative Dice and Initiative Score then it will be compatible with everything except the Increase Reflexes Spell.
2) Improved Reflexes is incompatible with other technical and magical increases to Reaction and Intuition (and possible Initiative Dice and Initiative Score) for the purpose of calculating Initiative (but compatible for the purpose of calculating the pilot skill dice pool, defense pool etc). This is how i read it.
3) Improved Reflexes is incompatible with other technical and magical increases to Reaction, Intuition and Initiative Attribute (and possible Initiative Dice and Initiative Score) since they are all increases of Initiative. This would be an even more strict reading of RAW that might or might not be RAI.
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Sorry, Xenon, I'm going to have to say that 'increasing Reaction/Intuition is an increase to Initiative' - because while enhancing one of or both of those will serve to increase Initiative, they are not in and of themselves direct increases to Initiative. Going by either #2 or #3, if I gain an enhancement to my Intuition, I can't take Wired Reflexes - because Wired Reflexes are incompatable with other increases to Initiative, are they not?
An ability that "increases Initiative" by a certain number of points is simply going to add its value directly to the result of your Initiative roll. That which adds Initiative dice - what I like to term 'Reflexes' - has notable restrictions, the most clear one of which is that it maxes out at a total of +5d6 for when you roll for your Initiative.
I mean, I understand the argument you're making - but even argument #2 is a clearly incorrect interpretation after any real examination. Sorry.
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Improved Reflexes increase Reaction which also affects Initiative (the power even specifically point this out).
Improved Reflexes also increase Initiative Dice which, depending on your reading, also affects Initiative.
Initiative is not Reaction. That's not just an interpretation, that's exactly how the rules are written. Why would Initiative, an attribute derived from Reaction, be the same as Reaction? That's just not logical to interpret things that way. Reaction is not a derived attribute. It's a baseline attribute. Other derived attributes (Physical Condition Monitor, Stun Condition Monitor, Limits, etc.) all get the benefit of the increased baseline attribute being used in the derived attribute, in addition to any bonuses that apply directly to the derived attribute.
If you're saying that Initiative encompasses the derived attribute and the dice bonus and all of the baseline attributes used in the calculation of Initiative, you're just not reading and interpreting the information correctly.
There are three ways to read this.
There aren't but for the sake of argument, let's say that there are multiple ways to interpret how Initiative works.
1) Improved Reflexes is compatible with other technical or magical increases to Reaction and Intuition (and compatible with their indirect increase of Initiative Attribute) and is only incompatible with direct increases to the Initiative Attribute (and possible also Initiative Dice and Initiative Score). This is how I interpret that you seem to read it Namikaze.... If you also consider that Improved Reflexes is compatible with increases to Initiative Dice and Initiative Score then it will be compatible with everything except the Increase Reflexes Spell.
This is not at all how I interpret this. It's very simple, really.
Reaction
+ Intuition
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Initiative
Bonuses to Reaction or Intuition cannot be greater than the augmented maximum. Bonuses to Initiative do not have any effect on Reaction or Intuition, and are therefore only used for Initiative (not for any linked skills or other tests, like Defense tests). It's that simple. Initiative Dice are a whole separate thing, which is pretty well covered. Your Initiative Dice cannot exceed 5d6, and generally won't get higher than 4d6 except in special circumstances.
2) Improved Reflexes is incompatible with other technical and magical increases to Reaction and Intuition (and possible Initiative Dice and Initiative Score) for the purpose of calculating Initiative (but compatible for the purpose of calculating the pilot skill dice pool, defense pool etc). This is how i read it.
This would mean that Increase Intuition isn't compatible with Wired Reflexes (as Wyrm stated), Synaptic Boosters, or anything that increases Initiative. Initiative is NOT the same as Reaction or Intuition. The fact that there is a whole section stating very clearly that Initiative is a derived attribute clearly indicates that it is separate from Reaction and Intuition.
3) Improved Reflexes is incompatible with other technical and magical increases to Reaction, Intuition and Initiative Attribute (and possible Initiative Dice and Initiative Score) since they are all increases of Initiative. This would be an even more strict reading of RAW that might or might not be RAI.
This is just... weird. I don't think anyone would screw up reading so badly that they would even interpret Initiative in this way.
At the end of the day, Xenon, you have your opinion. Your opinion happens to be completely counter to the book, but that's how you do it. I'm not going to get my blood pressure up over something as stupid as this argument. If you feel like continuing, you'll be doing so in a vacuum. I'm done with this discussion.
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Sorry, Xenon, I'm going to have to say that 'increasing Reaction/Intuition is an increase to Initiative'
No need to be sorry. I totally agree.
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Sorry, Xenon, I'm going to have to say that 'increasing Reaction/Intuition is an increase to Initiative'
No need to be sorry. I totally agree.
Actually, that's kind of taken out of context, in part because I didn't complete the thought. The idea that 'Increasing Reaction/Intuition is an increase to Initiative' is bull, because: ...while enhancing one of or both of those will serve to increase Initiative, they are not in and of themselves direct increases to Initiative.
So I'm totally with Namikaze on this one, as per the rest of my post.
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This is not at all how I interpret this. ..
So I'm totally with Namikaze on this one, as per the rest of my post.
Ahh. Ok. My bad.
Just to be clear where you stand on the matter;
Do you guys think that Improved Reflexes is compatible (stack) with Wired Reflexes?
I read it as Improved Reflexes increase Initiative and that Wired Reflexes increase Initiative. You can have both Improved Reflexes and Wired Reflexes at the same time and that Wired Reflexes in its own is compatible with Improved Reflexes (since Improved Reflexes is a magical increase to Initiative and not cyberware or bioware (aka "augmentation")) but that Improved Reflexes is incompatible with Wired Reflexes because Wired Reflexes is a technological increase to Initiative.
If you read that Improved Reflexes is only incompatible with direct increase to Initiative Attribute then it will be compatible with every single increase except Improved Reflexes Spell (as this is the only magical or technological increase that directly affect the Initiative Attribute in the entire book). All other magical or technological increases are indirect to Initiative Attribute through Reaction or Intuition, directly to Initiative Dice and/or directly to Initiative Score.
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...if I gain an enhancement to my Intuition, I can't take Wired Reflexes...
Yes you can.
Incompatible does not mean you can't have both.
It just mean that you can't benefit from both at the same time (they don't stack).
Wired Reflexes is also only incompatible with augmentations (cyberware and bioware) that affect Initiative, but for argument sake say you install an augmentation that give you Intuition (no such augmentation in the book but we use it to illustrate a point).
You can install both. When it comes to your perception dice pool you will benefit by the increase to intuition augmentation. When it comes to your pilot dice pool you will benefit by Wired Reflexes. When it comes to Initiative you will have to choose if you want to benefit from either Wired Reflexes or the augmentation that gave you Intuition. Wired Reflexes is incompatible with other augmentations to Initiative so when it comes to Initiative the two augmentations will not stack.
SR5 p. 421 Incompatibility
When two items are incompatible ... you cannot use the effects of both items at the same time. If one item of gear says it’s incompatible and the other doesn’t, they’re incompatible. You can have both items if you want, you just have to pick what piece of gear to use at what time.
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Yyyyeah, but no. What you can't use together is specified: Wired Reflexes cannot be used with any other Initiative or Reaction enhancements.
Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative.
If the rule was 'Reaction is an Initiative enhancement' - which rule is nowhere to be found - then your philosophy would hold water, and they would not need to specify 'Reaction or Initiative'. They would not state:
When activated, each rating point of wired reflexes gives you +1 Reaction (and accompanying bonus to Initiative) and +1D6 Initiative Die. (Emphasis mine.)
I interpret 'Augmentations' as being anything that applies, whether cyberware, bioware, or magic; it may be a magic augmentation, but that's still an augment. And nowhere does it actually state any blanket ruling; each item and spell has its own statement about what it is incompatable with. If it doesn't have a incompatability statement, then by your own quote about compatability, it's compatable with anything that does not have its OWN incompatability statement.
You feel free to be as restrictive as you like; your peoples' max initiative is gonna wind up being what, 18 + 5d6? That's fine for your game; enjoy. But please, don't think your decision in any way reflects the game's stated rules.
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I haven't looked at this thread for a while, what the heck happened. I'm seeing a ton of disagreements and what seems to be some hostility here. Many seem to think that these two things don't stack, some say they do; let's move past this.
A question to ask now, and let's please not stab at each other, is what about the Suprathyroid Gland's other bonuses? The +1 to Body, Agility, and Strength? Would these still be available at the same time as the Improved Reflexes power adding to your initiative? To clarify, this would result in +1 Body, +1 Agility, +1 Strength, +3 Reaction, and +3d6 Initiative Dice. In your guys opinion, do these other bonuses still work, or are they negated due to being part of the same piece of bioware?
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Any attribute can be increased up to the augmented maximum. The only things that break the augmented maximum are drugs. The question, and hostility, arises from a disagreement about what constitutes an attribute.
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@The Wyrm Ouroboros
Magic and Drugs are not Augmentations.
Cyberware and Bioware are Augmentations.
I consider that incompatible to Initiative increases include Reaction and Intuition for the purpose of indirect calculating Initiative Attribute as well as direct increases to Initiative Attribute... so at my table we probably end up with less initiative attribute than a table that consider incompatible to initiative only include direct increases to initiative attribute and compatible with increases to reaction and intuition for the purpose of calculating initiative attribute.
WR state reaction to make it incompatible with augmentations to reaction (such as reaction enhancers), even for the purpose of calculating pilot dice pool. WR state initiative to make it incompatible with augmentations to intuition and reaction for the purpose of calculating initiative attribut and augmentations directly to initiative attribute. If the intent was to only make it incompatible with augmentations to initiative attribute (and compatible with reaction enhancers for the purpose of calculating pilot skill pool)... Then they could have left out the reaction part (like improved reflexes do). If they wanted WR to be incompatible with augmentations and magic then they could have used "technological and magical" (like improved reflexes do). If they wanted WR to be incompatible with drugs, magic and augmentations then they could have used "any other form of enhancement" (like synaptic boosters do). I'd they wanted WR to be compatible with everything then they could have done it like the increase reflexes spell.
You didn't answer my question. For argument sake; assume for a second that Augmentation mean Cyberware or Bioware. Would you then consider improved reflexes to be compatible (stack) with wired reflexes (since none of them increases initiative attribute directly)?
@8-bit
You can have weird reflexes and Gland at the same time.
In this case you have to pick between WR or Glands for increases to reaction and you have to pick between WR or Glands for calculating Initiative Attribute. You would use WR for increases to initiative dice. You would use Glands for increases to agility, body and strength.
@ Namikaze
Magic and Drugs are not Augmentations.
Cyberware and Bioware are Augmentations.
Only augmentations (cyberware and bioware) have a blanket +4 augmented maximum unless a specific augmentation explicit saying anything different (like wireless reflex enhancers, most augmentations don't).
Drugs and Magic don't have a blanket statement and only follow the +4 augmentation maximum if they explicit say so (like Increase Attribute, Attribute Boost, Improved Physical Attribute etc. Most magical enhancement do, but not all. None of the drugs do. Not sure if you can combine two combat drugs.... But if you for example combine Improved Reflexes 3 + Jazz + Kamikaze you would end up with +5 reaction).
You didn't answer my question. Do you consider that improved reflexes and wired reflexes stack (none of them increase initiative attribute directly).
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You didn't answer my question. Do you consider that improved reflexes and wired reflexes stack (none of them increase initiative attribute directly).
I am trying to stick to the topic at hand. But to satisfy your curiosity, I would argue that the following statements are the basis that we have to go with:
the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative.
Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative.
So no you can't stack them. Wired Reflexes clearly states that it is incompatible with any other increases to Reaction or Initiative, and Increase Reflexes is a boost to both. However, Increase Reflexes is compatible with other boosts to Reaction.
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So improved reflexes increase both reaction and initiative? For once we are agreeing :)
But now I am a bit confused.
You didn't consider an increase to initiative dice to be an increase to initiative (that initiative in this case is initiative attribute and that initiative dice is something else).I've always interpreted that Initiative is a derived attribute, and that Initiative Dice is something wholly different...
And I got the impression that you didn't consider that an increase to reaction count as an increase to initiative (have this now changed or did I misunderstand you from the beginning)?
If you do consider an increase of reaction to count as an increase to initiative and the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to initiative; will that not make improved reflexes incompatible with Glands for the purpose of calculating initiative (but, depending on your reading, may or may not still be compatible with increases to reaction when the purpose have nothing to do with Initiative - like when calculating a pilot skill dice pool)??
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Alright, Xenon I'll break this down. Again.
- You have attributes.
- You have derived attributes.
- You have bonuses to attributes.
- You have bonuses to derived attributes.
A bonus to Reaction or Intuition is not the same as a bonus to Initiative. A bonus to Reaction or Intuition will affect Initiative, except in cases where the information is explicitly stated otherwise.
Got all that? Good. Let's move on.
Wired Reflexes explicitly states that it's effects are not cumulative with any bonuses to Reaction or Initiative. Improved Reflexes explicitly states that it's effects are not cumulative with any bonuses to Initiative.
Are we finally clear on this? The book is pretty clear to me, and apparently to others. My reading of the book is pretty clear to everyone else - I've not had to explain myself four times to anyone else. So why, after three other explanations, are you still asking questions like this:
If you do consider an increase of reaction to count as an increase to initiative and the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to initiative; will that not make improved reflexes incompatible with Glands for the purpose of calculating initiative (but, depending on your reading, may or may not still be compatible with increases to reaction when the purpose have nothing to do with Initiative - like when calculating a pilot skill dice pool)??
I do not consider an increase of reaction to count as an increase to initiative. Period. I consider an increase to Reaction to be an increase to Reaction. Initiative, as a derived attribute, also changes because the Reaction has changed.
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Precisely. Xenon, if an increase in Reaction was considered a direct increase to initiative, it wouldn't specify both. Really, this is blatantly clear - and always has been. You're either being pedantic or deliberately obtuse.
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I read this the same way as Namikaze, if that's any indication. :)
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I am pretty sure Aaron said something along the lines that augmentations = cyberware and bioware, but i can't seem to find the reference right now.... :(
If this is the case. And if increase to reaction and increase to initiative dice don't count as increase to initiative. Then improved reflexes would be compatible with wired reflexes (and every other drug, cyberware, bioware, spell or adept power except increase reflexes since increase reflexes is the only enhancement that directly increase initiative attribute) and Wired Reflexes would be compatible with improved reflexes (and all other magical and drug enhancements etc. that are not cyberware or bioware; that does not count as augmentations).
Putting the augmentation definition and wired reflexes augmentation aside; the final initiative score increase you get from having improved Reflexes would be compatible with the final initiative score increase that would result from having Adrenaline Boost, Increase Intuition, Improved Physical Attribute [Reaction], Adrenaline Pump, Suprathyroid gland, Cram, Jazz, Novacoke, increase reaction, psych (and possible wired reflexes ... depending on if augmentation mean only cyberware + bioware; or not). This will potentially lead to increased final initiative scores....
With a reading that "increases to initiative" would include indirect and direct increases to attribute, dice and score... then improved reflexes will be incompatible with all technological and magical increases that affect initiative in any way for the purpose of calculating the final initiative score. improved reflexes would basically only be compatible with drugs (when it comes to calculating the final initiative score).
I might very well be wrong, but am I really the only one that find it more than a bit strange that for example improved reflexes, wired reflexes, adrenaline boost or synaptic boosters would not count as increases to initiative...??
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I am pretty sure Aaron said something along the lines that augmentations = cyberware and bioware, but i can't seem to find the reference right now.... :(
Maybe this?
p.23
A few of
us are lucky enough to get that edge through magic.
For the rest of us, there are augmentations.
p.94
First, when purchasing aug-
mentations such as cyberware and bioware, each attri-
bute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an
augmentation bonus of up to +4. If the attribute being
raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the
attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no
point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap.
While Synaptic boosters "cannot be combined with any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement", the restriction for Wired Reflexes is that they "are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative". On the magical side, while the Improved Reflexes power says "the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative", the Increase Reflexes spell doesn't say it's incompatible with anything except itself.
Does this mean Wired Reflexes and the Increase Reflexes can stack, since neither says it's incompatible with the other, or is this simply another phrasing mistake?
Yes.
and this?
Aaron in the initiative response what exactly are you saying yes to?
The first part of the question.
So in other words you're saying that Wired Reflexes and Increased Reflexes do stack because Augmentation in the wired reflexes text only refers to cybernetic augmentations?
Do you intend the corollary to this that the augmented maximum only applies to Cybernetic augmentation and that magical augmentation (or whatever you've decided to call it since we can't now call it augmentation) is completely uncapped?
Yes, followed by no. You can't get more than 5D6 in Initiative Dice no matter what your source.
Edit: a full list of stuff which is fiddeling with physical initiative:
not not not
derived derived derived derived
Attribute Attribute Attribute(?) Attribute
REA INT INITIATIVE Dices INITIATIVE
x x Increase Reflexes (p.288, spell) magic
(no restrictions except for the 5Dices cap)
x x Increase Attribute (p.288, spell) magic
up to the target’s augmented maximum
x Adrenaline Boost (p.308, adept power) magic
(no restrictions at all)
x Improved Physical Attribute (p.309, adept power) magic
up to your augmented maximum.
x Attribute Boost (p.309, adept power) magic (not affecting INI at all)
up to your augmented Attribute maximum. This only affects your dice pools...
x x Improved Reflexes (p.310, adept power) magic
cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative.
x Reaction Enhancers (p.455, cyberware)tech
incompatible with all other enhancements to Reaction, including wired reflexes.
x x Wired Reflexes (p.455, cyberware)tech
...incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative...
x x Synaptic Booster (p.461, bioware)tech
cannot be combined with any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement.
x Suprathyroid Gland (p.459, bioware)tech
up to your augmented maximum. (p.94)
x Adrenaline Pump (p.459, bioware)tech
up to your augmented maximum. (p.94)
x x x Drugs (p.411)tech?
(restrictions?)
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If this is the case. And if increase to reaction and increase to initiative dice don't count as increase to initiative....
I might very well be wrong, but am I really the only one that find it more than a bit strange that for example improved reflexes, wired reflexes, adrenaline boost or synaptic boosters would not count as increases to initiative...??
See, you're the only one who's saying this - that things that say they're increases to initiative aren't increases to initiative. An increase to your reaction is not a direct increase to initiative. Period fucking stop. An increase to initiative is an increase to your initiative, and an increase to your initiative dice is also - by my reading - an increase to your initative. This is what we've been saying all along. This is the official interpretation. So either you're refusing to get it, or you're baiting us. Either way, stop.
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It might be a language barrier thing, but pretty much everyone in this thread (except maybe you and me) say that increase to initiative dice does not count as an increase to initiative and that increase to initiative score does not count as an increase to initiative.
And I seem to be alone in my interpretation that an increase to reaction or intuition for the purpose of calculating initiative attribute count as an increase to initiative.
The only thing everyone in this thread seem to agree on is that a direct increase to initiative attribute count as an increase to initiative (but the list of enhancements this would include is limited to one single item; increase reflexes spell).
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And I seem to be alone in my interpretation that an increase to reaction or intuition for the purpose of calculating initiative attribute count as an increase to initiative.
As weird as it feels to say, I actually agree with you on this. Of course, since you're agreeing with me, that means I must be wrong. Hmmm...
It might be a language barrier thing, but pretty much everyone in this thread (except maybe you and me) say that increase to initiative dice does not count as an increase to initiative and that increase to initiative score does not count as an increase to initiative.
The Initiative Dice part, by my own interpretation, is a moot point, since almost everything (except Kamikaze, and apparently drugs aren't subject to incompatibility rules) that increases your Initiative Dice also (directly or indirectly) affects the Initiative attribute. As for your Initiative Score, well, my opinion on the matter is known, although I do feel that if you use Adrenaline Boost multiple times in a Combat Turn, the Drain Value should stack or increase somehow (even if it's incompatible, the idea that a Troll could get Adrenaline Boost 5, use it however many times he needs to murder everyone in the room, then have like 0.01% chance of dying even if he used it 30 times, is silly).
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The problem is that every time they wrote about the limits of a certain buff to initiative they use a different text. I'm not sure that they were aware of the implications.
I get it that Wired Reflexes needed the boost of being able to stack Reaction Enhancers compared to Synaptic Boosters. But why did they write it so that Synaptic Boosters don't even stack with drugs and at the same time allowed Increase Reflexes to be stacked onto Wired Reflexes? Essence as a DP-modifier does not much, as the bonus is absolute and independant of the current initiative. So even Force 2 with 2 hits can push a WRIII-user to 5d6 dice and +2 initiative.
Now entering houserule territory:
Improved Reflexes, Increase Reflexes, Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters (as well as possible later additions of Move-by-Wire and Boosted Reflexes) don't stack with each other.
Reaction Enhancers stay as they are in allowing the augmented maximum to be superseded with Wired Reflexes being both wirelessly enabled.
Suprathyroid Gland stacks with everything but Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers and allows you to reach augmented maximum on REA with Synaptic Boosters III.
Drugs count as chemical increases and stack with everything up to 5d6 initiative dice.
So you could combine wirelessly enabled Wired Reflexes II + Reaction Enhancers III with Kamikaze for +5REA and 5d6 initiative dice or
Synaptic Boosters III + Suprathyroid Gland + Jazz for the same result regarding initiative.
PS: If they release K-10 again, maybe there should be a limit to chemical increases as well :)
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The dice bonuses to Initiative are limited to 5d6, flat-out. That's why I said that they're a different sort of thing.
Let's give some examples:
Runner Ace has 3s in all his stats. Since we're only worrying about Reaction, Intuition, and Initiative I'll only use those stats in these examples. His stats are:
Reaction 3
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 + 1d6
Ace decides to get some Wired Reflexes installed, at rating 3.
His new stats are:
Reaction 3 (6)
Intuition 3
Initiative 3 (9) + 1d6 (4d6)
Now, Ace decides he's going to take some Kamikaze as well (he's feeling particularly suicidal). Now Ace's stats look like this:
Reaction 3 (6)
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 (9) + 1d6 (5d6)
Why didn't he get the extra d6 from Kamikaze? Because he cannot go higher than 5d6.
Once he's down from the Kamikaze, he decides to get Reaction Enhancers installed at rating 3. What are his stats now?
Reaction 3 (6/9)
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 (9/12) + 1d6 (4d6)
Most of the time, he's going to be running around without the bonuses of Reaction Enhancers. But when he has the Reaction Enhancers and the Wired Reflexes wirelessly enabled, they stack. If he does that, he ends up with a Reaction of 9, and an Initiative of 12 + 4d6.
Let's look at a different scenario entirely, the one that was presented by the OP.
Runner Bob is a physical adept with the Improved Reflexes power at rank 2. Let's say his stats look like this:
Reaction 3 (5)
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 (8) + 1d6 (3d6)
Now Bob decides to get a Suprathyroid Gland installed. Once the gland is installed, he gets a +1 to Agility, Body, Reaction, and Strength. This means his stats now look like this:
Reaction 3 (6)
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 (9) + 1d6 (3d6)
Let's try with just magical enhancements.
Runner Cleo has 3s in all stats. Cleo decides to cast Increase Reflexes on herself. She gets 4 hits, which gives her 4 extra Initiative and 2d6 extra Initiative Dice. Her stats now look like this:
Reaction 3
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 (10) + 1d6 (3d6)
The next turn, Cleo casts Increase Reaction on herself, getting 4 hits in the process. This means her stats now look like this:
Reaction 3 (7)
Intuition 3
Initiative 6 (14) + 1d6 (3d6)
The turn following, Cleo casts Increase Intuition and gets 6 hits. She only gets to keep 4 of those hits, because otherwise she's over her augmented maximum. Now her stats look like this:
Reaction 3 (7)
Intuition 3 (7)
Initiative 6 (18) + 1d6 (3d6)
Are you starting to see what I mean, and how the wording works?
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But when he has the Reaction Enhancers and the Wired Reflexes wirelessly enabled, they stack. If he does that, he ends up with a Reaction of 9, and an Initiative of 12 + 4d6.
Doesn't the +4 augmented attribute limit still apply? So he would be running on reaction 7?
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But when he has the Reaction Enhancers and the Wired Reflexes wirelessly enabled, they stack. If he does that, he ends up with a Reaction of 9, and an Initiative of 12 + 4d6.
Doesn't the +4 augmented attribute limit still apply? So he would be running on reaction 7?
Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes state that if they're both in wireless mode, the combined bonus to Reaction can exceed the usual augmentation limit of +4.
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But when he has the Reaction Enhancers and the Wired Reflexes wirelessly enabled, they stack. If he does that, he ends up with a Reaction of 9, and an Initiative of 12 + 4d6.
Doesn't the +4 augmented attribute limit still apply? So he would be running on reaction 7?
Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes state that if they're both in wireless mode, the combined bonus to Reaction can exceed the usual augmentation limit of +4.
Ahh, ok. Thank you for the clarification. I missed that.
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I see what you mean.
You might very well be right. We might both be wrong. Book seem to be ambiguous enough to read it in more than one way (or else this thread would not be several pages long).
This is how I read it:
If you get a higher initiative with an enhancement than you did without; then it count as an increase to initiative. And if it also is technological or magical in nature then it will not stack with improved reflexes.
For example wired reflexes is technological. Your initiative increase when you turn it on. Thus it is (imo) not compatible with improved reflexes. You can still have both. They just don't stack. You have to pick which one you wish to benefit from when calculating your initiative.
Same with Glands. Your initiative increase with it compared to without... That is why this technological increase to initiative cannot (imo) be combined with the initiative increase improved reflexes provide.
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Xenon, can you show me how you got your interpretation? Everyone else seems to be agreeing with my take, and I'm very confused by how you got to your position.
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Simple:
1) When you turn on Wired Reflexes your Initiative Increase.
2) Improved Reflexes cannot be combined with other technological or magical Increases to Initiative.
(I also don't think everyone else think that Improved Reflexes and Wired Reflexes stack).
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Simple:
1) When you turn on Wired Reflexes your Initiative Increase.
2) Improved Reflexes cannot be combined with other technological or magical Increases to Initiative.
Can you show me where Wired Reflexes increase your Initiative?
(I also don't think everyone else think that Improved Reflexes and Wired Reflexes stack).
You are grossly oversimplifying my (and everyone else that has commented in this thread's perspective on the issue.
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Can you show me where Wired Reflexes increase your Initiative?
Sure
Initiative 6 + 1d6 with Wired Reflexes 3 turned off.
Initiative 6(9) + 4d6 with Wired Reflexes 3 turned on.
If 6(9) + 4d6 is more than 6 + 1d6 then Initiative is increased (imo)
(I also don't think everyone else think that Improved Reflexes and Wired Reflexes stack).
You are grossly oversimplifying my (and everyone else that has commented in this thread's perspective on the issue.
But I do understand why you (and possible Kincaid?) don't consider that Wired Reflexes increase Initiative (because you consider that an increase to Initiative Dice does not count as an increase to Initiative and because you consider that an increase of Reaction does not count as an increase to Initiative - that you only consider that a direct increase to Initiative Attribute count as an increase to Initiative).
But you (and possible Kincaid?) is not everyone else.
For example, ZeConster say that WR increase Initiative because an increase to Reaction count as an increase to Initiative for the purpose of calculating the Initiative Attribute and The Wyrm Ouroboros say that WR Increase initiative because an increase to Initiative Dice is, by his reading, an increase to Initiative.
And I seem to be alone in my interpretation that an increase to reaction or intuition for the purpose of calculating initiative attribute count as an increase to initiative.
As weird as it feels to say, I actually agree with you on this...
...an increase to your initiative dice is also - by my reading - an increase to your initative...
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Can you show me where Wired Reflexes increase your Initiative?
Sure
Initiative 6 + 1d6 with Wired Reflexes 3 turned off.
Initiative 6(9) + 4d6 with Wired Reflexes 3 turned on.
If 6(9) + 4d6 is more than 6 + 1d6 then Initiative is increased (imo)
The bonus +3 comes from a bonus to Reaction, not to Initiative. And the Initiative Dice are separate from Initiative, as I'll explain below.
But I do understand why you (and possible Kincaid?) don't consider that Wired Reflexes increase Initiative (because you consider that an increase to Initiative Dice does not count as an increase to Initiative and because you consider that an increase of Reaction does not count as an increase to Initiative - that you only consider that a direct increase to Initiative Attribute count as an increase to Initiative).
With all due respect, Xenon... you don't understand my perspective. My point is that Initiative is a stat. Increases to Reaction don't influence increase to Initiative. If something says that it increases Initiative, but doesn't affect Reaction or Intuition, then the bonus is applied directly to the Initiative. I'm honestly getting a little tired of repeating myself over and over again.
Reaction != Initiative. Intuition != Initiative. Initiative != Reaction. Initiative != Intuition.
Initiative Dice are expressly used as a term to define the bonus dice in multiple pages in the core rulebook. To say that they're the same as Initiative is to ignore the fact that these terms are completely separate. Case in point:
INITIATIVE
Initiative governs how quickly a character responds in a combat situation. A character’s Initiative attribute is their Reaction plus their Intuition.
INITIATIVE DICE
Initiative Dice, as described on p. 159, are extra dice used to roll a character’s Initiative Score. They generally come from gear, spells, or adept powers. Everyone has one and can get up to four more (for a total of five) from
various gear, spells, and other effects. Hackers get extra initiative dice depending on how they interact with the Matrix (see p. 214).
Blitz: Roll the maximum of five Initiative Dice for a single Combat Turn.
Also be sure to note the number of Initiative Dice the character gets; all characters start with 1 (noted as 1D6) and can receive additional dice from augmentations. These should be listed after the Initiative Rating so the listing looks like this: 9 (11) + 2D6.
Initiative determines the order in which characters act, as well as how often they act during a single Combat Turn. Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice.
...
INITIATIVE ATTRIBUTE
The Initiative Attribute is a derived attribute used to measure the speed, perceptiveness, and reaction rate of a combatant. See the Initiative Attribute Chart to determine Initiative attributes for different types of combatants
(Physical, Astral, Matrix, or Rigging) and their Base Initiative Die.
INITIATIVE SCORE
To determine a character’s Initiative Score, make an Initiative Test rolling the character’s Initiative Dice and adding the total to your Initiative attribute—this total is your Initiative Score. Edge may be used on this test to roll the maximum of 5D6 for a single Combat Turn. The gamemaster records the score for each character, from highest to lowest. The character with the highest score goes first and the others follow in descending order during each Initiative Pass.
In some cases, a character’s Initiative Score or Base Initiative Dice may change in the middle of a Combat Turn. A player might gain Initiative by activating an augmentation, for example, or could receive a boost from a drug
or spell or other enhancer.
I could go on, but there are dozens of other references, and it just seems like I'm beating a dead horse. There's a reason the words "Initiative Dice" are used separately from Initiative, Reaction, Intuition, Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, etc. It's because the dice are separate from the attribute. They are two separate things. There's no reason to think that these two things are one and the same.
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One huge reoccurring problem with SR5 when it comes to discussions like this is that the book is not consistent with the words they use ;)
On several occasions they use the word "Initiative" instead of "Physical Initiative".
On several occasions they use the word "Initiative" instead of "Initiative Attribute".
So when they say "increase to Initiative" they might or might not mean "increase to Physical Initiative" or "increase to Initiative Attribute".
Some people might argue that Improved Reflexes is an Increase to Physical Initiative and is incompatible with other increases to Physical Initiative.
Others might argue that Improved Reflexes is an Increase to Initiative Attribute ("Increase Reaction also affects Initiative [Attribute]") and is incompatible with other increases to Initiative Attribute.
You argue that Improved Reflexes is not a (direct) increase to Initiative Attribute but is incompatible with enhancements that do increase Initiative Attribute (directly) - which is only one single spell out of every Augmentation, Enhancement or Drug in the entire book.
Since the books is ambiguous there are many quotes we can throw at each other that support the idea that "Initiative" mean "Initiative Attribute" and that "Initiative" mean "Physical Initiative".
Going back to a named paragraph or section to get a clear definition doesn't help us either since:
On p. 52 we have a paragraph named "Initiative" that tell us that "Initiative" = "Initiative Attribute"
On p. 153 we find a whole section called "Initiative" that tell us that "Initiative" = "Physical Initiative"
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The bonus +3 comes from a bonus to Reaction, not to Initiative.
A bonus of +3 to Reaction increase Initiative Attribute.
A bonus of +3 to Reaction increase Physical Initiative.
A bonus of +3 to Reaction also increase Initiative Score.
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The bonus to Reaction has effects on attributes derived from Reaction. But Reaction is not anything but Reaction. And Wired Reflexes doesn't boost Initiative, it boost Reaction and Initiative Dice. It's pretty straightforward about this:
When activated, each rating point of wired reflexes gives you +1 Reaction (and accompanying bonus to Initiative) and +1D6 Initiative Die.
Initiative Dice is a term that is not ambiguous at all. I don't know why you can't seem to understand that the book separates Initiative and Initiative Dice.
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When activated, each rating point of wired reflexes gives you +1 Reaction (and accompanying bonus to Initiative) and +1D6 Initiative Die.
You do realize that there is a difference between the increase to Reaction Attribute that Wired Reflexes provide and the increase to Reaction Attribute that Attribute Boost [Reaction] provide, right?
Wired Reflexes increase Reaction Attribute which also increase (give a bonus to / also affects) Initiative [Attribute].
Attribute Boost [Reaction] increase Reaction Attribute but does not also increase Initiative [Attribute].
Wired Reflexes increase your [Physical] Initiative (both with the bonus to Initiative [Attribute] and with the bonus to Initiative Dice).
Attribute Boost [reaction] does not increase your [Physical] Initiative.
Initiative Dice is a term that is not ambiguous at all. I don't know why...
I never said "Initiative Dice" is ambiguous
(are you maybe confusing me with something The Wyrm Ouroboros said earlier....?)
I am talking about the word "Initiative" that either mean Initiative [Attribute] or [Physical] Initiative.
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On the topic "Suprathyroid Gland and the Improved Reflexes Adept Power"...
I'm going to enter this "conversation" because my characters are impacted by rule lawyers, and I have an opinion--which is...
From RAW (which I'm not repeating anyone below) AND reasonableness (is that a real word?) is that these two items can work together. The adept who wants bioware enhancements, despite the disruption to their essence, may benefit from both items. Improved Reflexes 3 and Suprathryoid Gland can add +4 to their Reaction, which is the max attribute enhancement.
My belief stems from the following thoughts:
First, sometimes the language is not perfectly crystal clear, so I look at the intent. The intent is to not have multiple, essentially the same, items stacking and therefore providing an unrealistic benefit to a player.
Second, the Suprathryoid Gland is a holistic physical effect on an organ that changes all elements of a person.
Third, the adept power (and only referencing the adept power) is intended to provide game flavor, and yes improved stats, to an adept indicating faster reaction - that character not only has a higher reaction attribute for actions like driving, but also can just move their body more quickly than the "average".
Let the volley begin....
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You do realize that there is a difference between the increase to Reaction Attribute that Wired Reflexes provide and the increase to Reaction Attribute that Attribute Boost [Reaction] provide, right?
Wired Reflexes increase Reaction Attribute which also increase (give a bonus to / also affects) Initiative [Attribute].
Attribute Boost [Reaction] increase Reaction Attribute but does not also increase Initiative [Attribute].
Wired Reflexes increase your [Physical] Initiative (both with the bonus to Initiative [Attribute] and with the bonus to Initiative Dice).
Attribute Boost [reaction] does not increase your [Physical] Initiative.
Not at my books right now, but reread the Attribute Boost description. It specifically states that Attribute only affects dice pools. I don't want to join in this argument, but your argument is, in the is case, just wrong.
@justkelly
Thanks for your explanation, that is how I personally view it as well. Thank you for your opinion.
If anything is messed up in terms of spelling, I blame autocorrect on the phone.
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The fact that Attribute Boost [Reaction] doesn't affect Initiative is explicitly a limitation that is defined with the power. Therefore, it has no impact at all on this discussion. It's just outright irrelevant.
At this point, Xenon, I've defined from the book, the different attributes, how they're derived, and the limitations of a number of effects. You have not once provided evidence supporting your opinion that an increase to a stat that also impacts Initiative is the same as an increase to Initiative.
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Both improved reflexes and wired reflexes explicit state that they also affect initiative [attribute] and/or [physical] initiative (depending on your reading).
An increase to reaction also give a bonus to / affects initiative [attribute] and [physical] initiative. They are tied together. The only time you can increase reaction without affecting initiative attribute and physical initiative is if the enhancement explicit state that it does not affect initiative.
When you activate wired reflexes you get an increased reaction, initiative attribute, initiative dice, initiative score and physical initiative.
The increase to reaction might or might not stack with improved reflexes, but the increase to initiative attribute (and physical attribute) does not stack with improved reflexes.
You can have both improved reflexes 2 and wired reflexes 2 at the same time. It might or might not increase your reaction attribute up to the augmented maximum of 4, but you can't stack improved reflexes with increases to physical initiative (or initiative attribute, still not really clear which one of the two they mean here) so you can't stack them both to get an increased initiative attribute of 4 (or an increased physical initiative of 4 and 4d6).
It does seem as if increased reflexes spell might stack with wired reflexes (but not with improved reflexes or synaptic boosters).
Synaptic boosters doesn't even stack with drugs.
Adrenaline Boost stack with wired reflexes and increase reflexes... depending on if improved reflexes talk about initiative [attribute] or [physical] initiative it might or might not stack with this power as well.
Attribute boost reaction stack with improved reflexes (unlike WR it does not affect initiative attribute nor physical initiative), wired reflexes and increase reflexes. Doesn't stack with synaptic boosters.
P.160 talk about increasing initiative by activating an augmentation. Increasing initiative by 2 by activating an implant. I let you decide if they tall about initiative attribute or physical initiative here, but I like to point out that all augmentations that increase initiative attribute does so by increasing your reaction attribute.
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The whole point of getting weird reflexes is to increase your initiative (!)
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Both improved reflexes and wired reflexes explicit state that they also affect initiative [attribute] and/or [physical] initiative (depending on your reading).
Prove it. Wired reflexes and improved reflexes explicitly state that they improve the Reaction and Initiative Dice of the recipient. Show me where it says that it improves Initiative directly, and I'll eat my shoes. The only line in here about improving Initiative is the part about how the bonus to Reaction also affects Initiative.
This power increases the speed at which you react, just like wired reflexes. For each level, you receive +1 to Reaction (this also affects Initiative) and +1D6 Initiative Die (to a maximum of 5D6). The maximum rating of Improved Reflexes is 3, and the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative.
Wired reflexes: This highly invasive, painful, life-changing operation adds a multitude of neural boosters and adrenaline stimulators in strategic locations throughout your body work to catapult you into a whole new world where everything around you seems to move in slow motion. The system includes both manual and wireless triggers to turn the wired reflexes on and off; activating or deactivating the trigger manually requires a Complex Action, doing so wirelessly is a Simple Action.
When activated, each rating point of wired reflexes gives you +1 Reaction (and accompanying bonus to Initiative) and +1D6 Initiative Die. Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative.
Wireless: The system is compatible with wireless reaction enhancers, and the total Reaction bonus from both systems can be above +4 if both systems have wireless active.
They are tied together.
Yes and no. Reaction is a part of Initiative, because Initiative is derived from Reaction. But if you increase Initiative, it doesn't necessarily result in an increase to Reaction (or Intuition for that matter).
When you activate wired reflexes you get an increased reaction, initiative attribute, initiative dice, initiative score and physical initiative.
Not true. When you activate Wired Reflexes, you get a bonus to Reaction and Initiative Dice. The bonus to reaction also affects you derived Initiative. Since you seem to have difficulty understanding how derivation works, let me give you a definition and example:
de·rive verb \di-ˈrīv, dē-\
: to take or get (something) from (something else)
: to have something as a source : to come from something
This means that if I have a bushel of apples, and I make a bunch of apple pies with those apples, I have derived an apple pie from the apples. The apple pie is not the apples, and the apples are not the apple pie. But they are intrinsically related to each other.
The increase to reaction might or might not stack with improved reflexes, but the increase to initiative attribute (and physical attribute) does not stack with improved reflexes.
You can have both improved reflexes 2 and wired reflexes 2 at the same time. It might or might not increase your reaction attribute up to the augmented maximum of 4, but you can't stack improved reflexes with increases to physical initiative (or initiative attribute, still not really clear which one of the two they mean here) so you can't stack them both to get an increased initiative attribute of 4 (or an increased physical initiative of 4 and 4d6).
Might or might not? I thought you were definitive in your position here.
It does seem as if increased reflexes spell might stack with wired reflexes (but not with improved reflexes or synaptic boosters).
Synaptic boosters doesn't even stack with drugs.
Adrenaline Boost stack with wired reflexes and increase reflexes... depending on if improved reflexes talk about initiative [attribute] or [physical] initiative it might or might not stack with this power as well.
Attribute boost reaction stack with improved reflexes (unlike WR it does not affect initiative attribute nor physical initiative), wired reflexes and increase reflexes. Doesn't stack with synaptic boosters.
None of these things are in question here. The topic is about the suprathyroid gland and improved reflexes. It feels like you're trying to further derail this topic in an effort to not admit you're wrong. Additionally, you're applying the stacking bonus to Reaction in some examples, and stating that a bonus to Reaction can't stack in other examples.
P.160 talk about increasing initiative by activating an augmentation. Increasing initiative by 2 by activating an implant. I let you decide if they tall about initiative attribute or physical initiative here, but I like to point out that all augmentations that increase initiative attribute does so by increasing your reaction attribute.
Who cares if all augmentations that increase Initiative do so via the Reaction attribute?
The whole point of getting weird reflexes is to increase your initiative (!)
I don't see why you felt the need to make another post just to say this. This isn't in question, Xenon.
I've cited the book multiple times, I've given you hard facts to back up my opinion, others have chimed in to agree with my interpretation. If you won't let it go, I will. This is just getting silly at this point, because I am repeating myself over and over again, but you keep changing your opinion in order to keep an argument going. Good day, Xenon.
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Prove that an increase to reaction "also affects" / give "accompanying bonus to" / "accompanying adjustment to" initiative attribute and physical limit?
First of all. That is a list of phrases that improved reaction, wired reflexes and synaptic boosters use in the book. They increase reaction and they "also affects" / give "accompanying bonus to" / "accompanying adjustment to" initiative attribute and physical limit. p. 310, 455 and 461.
Second. When you alter reaction you will also alter your initiative attribute as well (as your physical initiative and physical limit). If your reaction decreases then so will your initiative attribute (and physical initiative and physical limit). If your reaction increase so will your initiative attribute (and physical initiative and physical limit). In the case of wired reflexes and improved reflexes it even remind the reader to adjust the initiative (but since you always do it by default they didn't have to be extra clear about it). For attribute boost they don't want your increase to reaction to also affect your initiative attribute and physical initiative, but in this case they have to state so. And they did.
Third. Let us use basic math. A = B + C where both B and C are known. Increase B without altering C gives that A must increase with the same amount as B.
Or if you rather talk about pie; If you increase the amount of apples then you will also increase the amount of apple pie. Increase Reflexes give you a bigger pie but is not compatible to other increases to the pie (such as adding more apples, adding more doe or even adding more apple pie directly).
Forth. Initiative might mean either [physical] initiative or initiative [attribute]. You are assuming that Improved Reflexes is incompatible with increase to Initiative Attribute. Your assumption might or might not be correct. For all we know Improved Reflexes might be incompatible with increase to Physical Initiative....
Fifth. If the book would have said that Wired Reflexes "...increase Reaction Attribute (and accompanying bonus to Initiative), +1D6 Initiative Attribute and also increase Initiative Attribute directly" then you would double dip and Initiative Attribute would be increased twice.
"Who cares if all augmentations that increase Initiative do so via the Reaction attribute?"
That is the whole point.
Improved reflexes increase initiative via the Reaction attribute and it is incompatible with other increases to Initiative (that might come from increases to Reaction Attribute, but there are other ways to increase Initiative besides increasing Reaction.... directly increasing initiative attribute, for example).
Improved Reflexes "cannot be combined with other ... increases to Initiative". You don't read this as Improved Reflexes is also increasing Initiative in its own??
If you get improved reflexes or turn on your wired reflexes then your initiative will increase. It is why you get them to begin with. I don't even understand how this can be under debate... You are seriously arguing that wired reflexes does not increase initiative and that it stack with improved reflexes. That you would get +4 initiative attribute and +4D6 initiative dice if you get improved reflexes 2 and wired reflexes 2 at the same time; despite the fact improved reflexes is clearly incompatible with other increases to initiative. other increases. Other. (Hint: they typed other because improved reflexes increase initiative on its own).
(And to make matters worse, for all we know the author might be taking about Physical Initiative here, not Initiative Attribute).
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Honestly, I feel they have complicated things so much this is something that needs intent clarification.
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Oh lord ... I must be out of my mind. Why? Because for all of the times I disagree with Xenon, I totally see his point and whats worse ... I agree.
While its true that the book is (and generally tends to be) somewhat ambiguous, I think I'd agree that anything that boosts the Initiate score would be a boost to Initiative. So, an item/ability that gives me 3 Reaction dice is thereby boosting my Initiative by 3.
Yes, I get that Initiative is a derived attribute and that one can (and several HAVE) argued that semantics say that Initiative is not all-encompassing of Reaction/Intuition.
To me this is akin to saying your Car is not street legal if it has 1,000 horsepower, then trying to explain to the officer that the car doesnt have 1,000 horsepower ... the "engine" does.
*shrug*
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Xenon, you're way off-base in regards to Reaction and Intuition; increasing either one results in an increase to your Initiative, yes, but is not in and of a direct increase to Initiative, which is the entire frelling point.
Namikaze, having discovered that you somehow feel that there is a seperation between 'an increase to Initiative' and 'an increase to Initiative' and 'increases Initiative' when one adds points to your 'Initiative secondary attribute', the second adds to your Initiative dice, and the third adds to your 'Initiative score', I have to admit that while you may somehow have a technical argument in your favor, you're being as goddamn pedantic about the differences between those - when they get used almost interchangeably in the book - as Xenon is in regards to increases in Reaction/Intuition being Initiative boosts.
So frankly, at this point I'd say you're both wrong.
An increase to Initiative is an increase to the score, the figured attribute, and/or initiative dice. These are just that: increases to Initiative. If something is incompatable with other increases to initiative, it doesn't matter which one of the three it is, or you think it is; that's immaterial, because it is incompatable. An increase to Reaction is not an increase to Initiative; an increase to Intuition is not an increase to Initiative. Both of those may - will - affect Initiative by dint of increasing the base attribute from which Initiative is derived, but they aren't initiative increases.
Geez.
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which is the entire frelling point.
Do I sense a Farscape reference?
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I see your point, TWO, I do ... but I still see it the other way.
Looks like this is going to be one of those things that gets left up for each individual table to decide on how they want to rule it.
That is, unless/until we get an official declaration from someone in-the-know.
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If you agree that activating wired reflexes give you higher initiative then it will not stack with improved reflexes. At least not for the purpose of adjusting initiative.
If you disagree that activating wired reflexes give you higher initiative then you are free to stack it with improved reflexes.
I can't really explain it more simple than that.
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An increase to Initiative is an increase to....
Yes, it is not unlikely that when they type Initiative in this case they mean [Physical] Initiative (p. 159)
- and not at all Initiative [Attribute] (p. 52)
...something I pointed out several times by now. Here is one recent example:
Initiative might mean either [physical] initiative or initiative [attribute]. You are assuming that Improved Reflexes is incompatible with increase to Initiative Attribute. Your assumption might or might not be correct. For all we know Improved Reflexes might be incompatible with increase to Physical Initiative.
(this is a topic I even had a fun, but rather lively, debate on with ZeConster some months ago where I defended the idea that they meant [Physical] Initiative while he argued for the idea that they meant Initiative [Attribute]... IIRC so he could stack Adrenaline Boost and Improved Reflexes).
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(this is a topic I even had a fun, but rather lively, debate on with ZeConster some months ago where I defended the idea that they meant [Physical] Initiative while he argued for the idea that they meant Initiative [Attribute]... IIRC so he could stack Adrenaline Boost and Improved Reflexes).
You seem to have mistaken me having an opinion about something with me having a stake in something. I've never used the Adrenaline Boost power.
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You seem to have mistaken...
Ohh. In that case I'm sorry.
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Just got a reply from one of the freelancers. This isn't official until it enters errata, but here's the explanation that I received:
"Any improvements to Reaction do thus increase Initiative, but the bonus from a Suprathyroid Gland does not directly affect Initiative Dice, like Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Boosters. Thus, I would argue that the bonus is stacking so long as it doesn't give more than +4 bonus. The only circumstance in which someone can break that +4 bonus is with drugs."
It sounds like a good rule of thumb for almost everything.
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...the bonus from a Suprathyroid Gland does not directly affect Initiative Dice, like Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Boosters...
So, it does affect Initiative Dice indirectly. Or not. Dice? Whatever... ;D
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Initiative dice?
To be honest, this just made things even more confusing... But thanks for sharing.
Is this guy's whole answer? "Thus" is normally used after explaining something...
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"Any improvements to Reaction do thus increase Initiative
- Pretty sure the "thus" refers to the fact that an improvement to Reaction also increases Initiative.
, but the bonus from a Suprathyroid Gland does not directly affect Initiative Dice, like Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Boosters.
- This means that an item that boosts "Initiative" refers to the Initiative Dice
Thus, I would argue that the bonus is stacking so long as it doesn't give more than +4 bonus. The only circumstance in which someone can break that +4 bonus is with drugs."
- So the bonuses from Suprathyroid Gland and Improved Reflexes stack, so long as the character doesn't go above the +4 maximum for Reaction