Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Neongelion on <02-21-13/1345:59>
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I apologize in advance for the rant, but any advice would be appreciated!
I GM'd a game of Shadowrun yesterday, and I damn near burst into flames when, for the better part of two hours, the technomancer hacked into Knight Errant's main network while the rest of the party twiddled their thumbs.
A bit of context: one of the characters had vented on a high school kid by killing him with a single punch. A KE drone happened to have taken pictures and recorded everything, which was promptly sent back to HQ. I had actually anticipated the group would have hacked into the KE network sooner or later so I did a little preparing in advance a few weeks ago. So when the character asked the technomancer to erase all evidence of his murder of a high school kid, I was ready.
At least, I thought I was.
Long story short: not only did the technomancer successfuly erase the data, all of it, from KE's network, but he also managed to get another critical piece of information, simply because I was too unfamiliar with the Matrix rules despite reading them over and over and poring over cheat sheets. And yet despite being detected by a MCT Bloodhound he still managed to slip out, because technomancers. Oh and did I mention that KE also had hired a technomancer onboard? Which, in the end, didn't do any good, at all. So he slipped out, KE will never know a thing, and the character gets away with murder of a child.
Now here are the parts where I am seriously raging over:
1) I do not have the technical knowhow on how computers, networks, etc. work, and I will never have the technical knowhow. Everytime I read Unwired or the Matrix rules in Shadowrun it never clicked with me. At all. So much, in fact, that I felt like I didn't give the technomancer a challenge at all. When he said he wanted his sprite to erase all evidence in the Knight Errant network I simply gave up and said "yes, the sprite does so". I had argued that the sprite wouldn't be able to do this since I would think the Matrix's de-centralized nature would not really allow for a clean erase. Once it's in the network, it's in, regardless of whether you erase the "source" file. But the techomancer player literally has a major in computer sciences, so I really had to take his word on it when he said "if the source is erased, then everyone who tries to access it will get a 404 error". Was he right?
2) So I get that the Matrix has a huge amount of data, everywhere. Even Knight Errant can't be constantly sifting through all the data that comes in through their surveillance drones and cameras all across the city. That being said, wouldn't there be technology that specifically recognizes patterns like, say, someone lethally kililng a high school kid, and thus the images/video file would be immediately beamed to proper people in Knight Errant?
I'm seriously just outright quitting as GM. I can't ignore the Matrix as a major force in Shadowrun, especially with a technomancer in the team. I try hard to understand the Matrix rules, I download cheat sheets and aids. On top of that, I've found that combat in 4th Edition is just outright tedious. Or casting spells. I feel like if there was a more experienced GM in my position who was able to decipher the Matrix rules, he would not have made it as easy as I did in hacking Knight Errant's security network. But I did.
Further, the party as a whole is against converting to a less cumbersome ruleset like Savage Worlds or FATE. I'd like to keep the setting, and I want to keep the story we have. But the rules as a whole I've just found to be far too crunchy for me to run anymore. What can I do?
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1)... Matrix technology do not behave like technology in our world, hacking even less and technomancers not can not even be compared
if the source get's erased then everybody will get a 404/file not found/file missing/ whatever... this is true, but as of today every company keeps around backups
in Shadowrun starting with a high Lifestyle iirc your msp provides backups of your digital files if you want so
So Knight errant should have backups, the question is where and how many backups do they make.
Do they make them on arrival (one working copy and one for the archive), at a daily basis (every night when the computers have least load backups are done) on a weekly basis?
Did the technomancer find all backup copies and delete them?
If he did only delete the working copy then your group should still be safe untill there is a reason to go look into the archives, he triggered no alerts so... thy might be fine.
In the rules there is also the option, that at the next backup intervall the missing files will be backup and overwrite the existing files in the backup, so files might be totally gone if he now keeps low long enough.
Thing is as a 10BP positive quality you can have your mystery hacker that deletes those files automatically for you every 24 hours, so a fullf fledged technomancers should be able to do the same, no?
2) yes that's possible if the data was sent to an Investigator already then this Investigator now has a copy on his commlink and might still be on the hunt.
You can keep the matrix time down by various means, you can ask your friend the technomancers for help, and you can in the future always use something like, someone role security procedures, 4 hits? oh yeah well you know that every day hard copies of the knight errants data are made and are physically stored away in an archive that is not connected through the matrix.
Then the technomancer needs to erase the data and the rest of the party needs to go into the archive.
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The Matrix is, more than our Internet, a series of interconnected machines. SINs are backed up pretty much globally, so erasing someone from the system requires you hack into about thirty to fifty machines, not setting off any alarms, and not only erase the data, but tear down certain protocols and tags that cause the system to forward the data. Within an hour. Some will still have forwarded it before being erased, so you'll have to triple-check after you've finished.
KE is going to have about a dozen machines, maybe more, that any serious crime would be forwarded to within seconds, by an automated process. One for this branch, one for a record, one for an APB, one to the facial recognition database, and etc. Some will frequently offload data to LAN drives. (Local Area Network, hardwired to only that machine, and untouchable without physically hacking the backup machine, because it's offline.) How frequently? I would say no more than ten minute intervals, maybe less in between.
You destroyed the main copy? That's freaking great. Go after the extras. The drone has it on file, and probably does a hard data-dump when it docks from its shift for maintenance. If they've already sent out Investigators, (half hour, TOPS, since most of the system for this is automated) then even if the agents assigned to the case aren't able to move onto the case yet, from backlog, they have the details on their own Links.
"Huh. I went to reference the timeframe 'x' to 'y', and it turned up totally blank."
"We've been hacked!"
If data goes missing, from a KE database, and in a stupidly obvious way, (If he didn't use Spoof, for example, to replace the data, then he left a black hole of data, which implicates him as well as the real perpetrator) they will gladly send in every scrap of firepower they can - they take stupid shit like that seriously, like an act of war. They may not have access to Submerged Technos, but higher up on the corporate ladder, someone does, and if the party has been operating hot in the area for a while, interrupting the corp's operations, then they'll send someone in to the Great Library, which is where deleted data goes. Resonance never forgets.
So, now they /think/ they're free. But instead, they have a pissed off corp, a bunch of investigators on their tails, they haven't expunged any records, and KE is going to shoot first, and interrogate their corpses. Congratz, guys.
Guy thinks he can fast-talk his way out of trouble, it sounds like. Turn the tables, let his actions rebound will emphasis.
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1) I do not have the technical knowhow on how computers, networks, etc. work, and I will never have the technical knowhow. Everytime I read Unwired or the Matrix rules in Shadowrun it never clicked with me. When he said he wanted his sprite to erase all evidence in the Knight Errant network I simply gave up and said "yes, the sprite does so".
...I would think the Matrix's de-centralized nature would not really allow for a clean erase. Once it's in the network, it's in, regardless of whether you erase the "source" file.
I can understand your frustration, though I can give some insight in this specific point: in Unwired there's a program (corrupt) that specifically destroys a file and leaves it there for the corrupted file to ruin the archive when the node's automated archiving process occurs. If he just deleted it, then maybe 24 hours later that file is restored from archives. Technomancers are better at snooping and seeing things in the matrix, but a good hacker can match a good technomancer in a lot of skills - including protecting or destroying data. Your description seems to be in line with how the core books describe the Matrix - there aren't infinite copies of any file, but there is a level of propagation that is very difficult to overcome. We are already seeing the signs of that in the modern era, where more of the difficulty is in simply not being able to get to a non-wireless network than spreading that data out.
But the techomancer player literally has a major in computer sciences, so I really had to take his word on it when he said "if the source is erased, then everyone who tries to access it will get a 404 error". Was he right?
Having a player who is an expert can be a really cool thing - some GMs recruit to help maintain incongruities between disputed rules and the real world. However, the core books seem fairly clear to me. A file in Lonestar's (or any other police) servers is not a webpage on today's internet, even now we tend to have duplicated files (one for working detectives, one for archive softcopy, sometimes one for archive hardcopy if a medium somewhere along the way is appropriate though this might not apply as much to the super-digitized 6th world). Dissonant technomancers and hackers with Corrupt wouldn't be such a specific threat if one "delete" key was all that's necessary.
2) That being said, wouldn't there be technology that specifically recognizes patterns like, say, someone lethally kililng a high school kid, and thus the images/video file would be immediately beamed to proper people in Knight Errant?
I think that any brawl would be something that their peacekeeping drones (which may or may not be there depending on the neighborhood) might pick it up - the kid might've started the fight, you haven't said. Either way, you told us that a drone caught the murder and beamed it to headquarters. That means it's in the system, and I would find it highly unlikely that the file wouldn't be in at least two different places, more likely 3 if it's already been assigned to detectives (with or without a backlog of cases). In the Matrix, having information spread out over several points is a bigger aspect of defense than the isolation that many of our modern-day security systems use.
After all, we already say "what goes on YouTube stays on YouTube".
(Unless it happened in Egypt or China, where the government censors so heavily few people can even get to IdiotTube.)
Further, the party as a whole is against converting to a less cumbersome ruleset like Savage Worlds or FATE. I'd like to keep the setting, and I want to keep the story we have. But the rules as a whole I've just found to be far too crunchy for me to run anymore.
Stop and take a breather. Look at a ruleset besides one of the ones mentioned, pick it at random. Imagine what it could do for you, how it might complicate your gaming/storytelling, and then come back to this with a refreshed perspective. It seems like this incident and the two hours that you and the player (not necessarily the character) were fighting while everybody else was bored is the real catalyzing incident, but if you come back and still dread running another Shadowrun game, bring it up with your group.
It's a game and the purpose is to have fun, for everybody involved. GM and players, and if you're not having fun then it's going to filter down, so bring it up before it poisons the group. Discuss the reality that things are no longer enjoyable and you need a break - you may drop this game/story completely or just set it aside for a while. If your group all want things one way and that's completely against what you want then there's a conflict in the group that is going to hinder things whether you force yourself to keep shadowrunning or if you force a system they don't want on them.
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Personally, I think I_V_Saur had the best idea to move forward with, and it doesn't require any RetConning.
The Technomancer deleted the data and got out clean...as far as he knows. His Sprite deleted every copy on the KE system. What he doesn't know is that it was already automatically forwarded to an investigator, and is still in the drone's on-board memory.
When either of them check in and the main system doesn't know what they're talking about, the whole system will go on alert, and even if they can't trace the Technomancer they still have the video of the incident. KE, even more than most corps, takes things like this seriously, and would likely see this as a personal insult. It may take them a while, but they'll find the players, and when they do they'll bring the hammer down.
Don't let your players know. Just keep it in the back of your mind that KE is looking for them. Maybe the backups weren't at full resolution so they're having some trouble finding them. Maybe they're just biding their time until the perps surface. At some point, when they aren't expecting it, have a KE Assault Team step out of an alley in the middle of a run and try to arrest them. If they run, give chase. If they fight and win, KE has a lot more information about them, and is going to be even more pissed off. If they surrender, KE takes them captive and puts them in a holding cell.
Have basic plans in place to deal with any of these options. Remember, KE aren't amateurs. The initial strike team might be unprepared for a group of experienced runners, but the next time they will bring specific countermeasures to any equipment of skills that were used the first time.
If the characters surrender, they'll put the Technomancer in a Faraday cage, slap cyberware inhibitors on the sammy, and mask the mage. The players will have to think very tactically to get out before their court date.
They could even be chased out of Seattle and have to flee to Berlin or Denver, if you think they're getting complacent and want to shake things up a bit.
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Thank you all for the great feedback! I feel a little more confident running Matrix encounters now.
However, I just realized something even more dumb on my part: I didn't have KE's system have passkeys. I know for damn sure KE would have, at the very least, a Standard Passkey System. This basically would have forced the technomancer to spend a complex action once every 4 turns to edit the access log, which would have slowed him down.
Next time the group has to deal with anything significantly involving the Matrix, I'll be sure to a) intertwine them somehow so that one part of the group doesn't get bored, and b) Make triple sure that the security network I made specifically to deter shadowrunners actually, you know, deters them...or at least gives them a proper challenge rather than narrow misses.
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How exactly are you supposed to do anything involving the Matrix without ignoring the rest of the party? Even simple things involve a decker/technomancer spending 10-15 minutes, while the rest of the group just sits there. While I suppose that other characters might have somewhat similar situations on occasion, like a magician doing a ritual while the others wait, it wouldn't take as long, and it could possibly be delayed and rolled for after the session. Really, how can we make the Matrix less of a hindrance to the flow of the game? You can't just avoid or ignore it, because that's not fair to the player that specializes in decking.
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I concurr feeney,
That's why I like doing streamlined matrix, mainly because it makes everyone else sit around.
I don't mind doing simple stuff, but having all of the players sitting around doing nothing is just a bad idea in my opinion. Let 'em dig around, or whatnot.
Or better, yet have the team hook up with an AI and handle the matrix NPC style (if you want to avoid it completely).
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How exactly are you supposed to do anything involving the Matrix without ignoring the rest of the party? Even simple things involve a decker/technomancer spending 10-15 minutes, while the rest of the group just sits there. While I suppose that other characters might have somewhat similar situations on occasion, like a magician doing a ritual while the others wait, it wouldn't take as long, and it could possibly be delayed and rolled for after the session. Really, how can we make the Matrix less of a hindrance to the flow of the game? You can't just avoid or ignore it, because that's not fair to the player that specializes in decking.
Intercuts. Rather than resolving one thing and then another, you cut between different things that are in progress. It's a pretty essential thing to Shadowrun GMing, really.
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Whenever the party is doing different things, switch to different points of view often enough nobody gets bored, but give them enough time to actually get stuff done. Switching is required when:
The party splits up for separate tasks at the same time.
Someone is hacking during a Run.
Someone is going onto the Astral on a Run.
And so, when you're describing things like this, it keeps everyone on the same page, retains in each player's mind the difference between their character's knowledge and Metagame knowledge, (No, I he didn't see the stuff on the matrix. He was popping Shedim heads at the time.) and generally it actually improves game flow.
Fighting a nigh-invincible Cyberzombie? Switch to the hacker, leave them hanging! Trying to ease into a secure system, retrieve data on what Lowfyr's planning to do to screw your party? Swap to the Sammie making dirty jokes with a contact, and break out the cheezies. See how long your players' nerves last.
If they aren't a bit antsy, quick to interrupt others, and self-focused, they're trying to be polite, and/or not interested. Very easy way to judge player interest in your game, is to start throwing scene breaks and cliffhangers around. Be a bit evil, and see how they react. I love having Matrix and Magic elements in my parties, because it gives me the extra tools to torture my players a bit more- I mean, increase dramatic tensions.
Yeah.
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The matrix rules are indeed a terrible mess. My advice:
1) Do not, ever, try to figure out how the Matrix works by analogy with real world computers. Just flush everything you and your players know about computers down the toilet because this is the dark future of the 1980s.
2) Try to keep the hacking as streamlined as possible and be prepared to skip BS. 1e through 3e had hacking be a mini-dungeon-crawl and there's still some elements of that, but it causes precisely the "everyone sits around" problem.
3) The way to make systems that are hazardous to hack are to have agents and/or hackers sitting around spamming Analyze to look for Stealthed intruders. Technomancers are hard to find, but do care about being hit with Black IC because they don't have a separate Matrix Condition Monitor.
For future reference, in the grim darkness of the 80s future, you can copy files just fine, so if someone else had already made a copy and put it on their commlink, they'd still have that copy. "Find all the copies of this file on KE's network" is Browse.
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Ok, and suggestions for when you aren't split up? When the team is sitting there and the trusty decker is doing crucial stuff like getting the target data extracted, or even just unlocking a door... it still takes 5+ minutes of everyone else sitting around twiddling their thumbs. It honestly makes me feel angry at myself... The net person is doing their best to help out everyone, and I'm sitting here begrudging him his moment in the sun out of boredom. My character may be on pins and needles about whether the security system is going to trigger at any moment, but my player is flipping to random webpages and losing interest.
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It sounds to me like it's going slow because you're not familiar with the rules if it's taking a full 5 minutes to open a door.
Remember that door can be opened... with either an electronics skill 'hotwiring' it and maybe bypassing an alarm or the hacker cracking the node and either adding a passcode or the like. Or by having him steal access passcodes from that security guard you knocked out.
There's always as well the 'simultaneous' fight... where the hacker is pulling a return of the jedi... bunker scene... hacking that door furiously while a massive firefight is going on behind him.
Similarly... the way to deal with really high sec nodes like that is to have hackers with rating 12 analyze programs... or better yet TM's with them threaded that high. If you then have a major 'nexus' type node with a bunch of patrolling spiders and ICE. It's simply a matter of time... it doesn't matter how good his stealth is.. you can thread analyze higher... and each and every single item in that room gets it's own opposed test to notice him and flag him. Or you might use the group perception rules... where you use the best guys' dice pool then add +1 more for each helper in the group. When suddenly the opposition is rolling 17 perception dice... the 'sneaking' and not setting off alarms part is really hard.
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Dont sweat it man,
You are GM !
Did the pc's see Everyone there ? Even the wino just woken bythe sound of gunfire ?
Who is now in police protection as prime witness
Or the KE rigger in captains chair on the drone, who is now desperately trying to prove to his boss where the file went from the system
Or the. Media type who was scanning the drone feed for a good story. Who has a copy for the highest bidder
Or the group of runners hired by the kids parents to hunt down his killers. Maybe they evenntry to hire your group ?
So many many ways to take it OUT of the TM's. ccontrol and involve the partybas a whole.
If he did a shoddy delete it can and should haunt him.
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You can turn this into a major plot for dozens of sessions. Maybe make it turn out that the kid was the son of someone important who can push KE into continuing to investigate.
Lead it in a bit. Drop hints that KE is investigating the incident and the hack, but don't make it obvious:
Have one of their contacts tell them KE is asking about an incident where someone hacked in and deleted evidence, and ask if they have heard anything.
Maybe one of the members of the group who wasn't directly involved has their house raided by KE while they're away on a run and they have to go crash with another PC for a while.
Subtle references could even appear in passing on news broadcasts and the like, "...in other news, Knight Errant spokesman Dan Randolph announced that they are close to a breakthrough in the murder of the teenage son of Renraku's Deputy Vice President of Marketing in Burien last week..."
If KE employs their own submerged Technomancer to retrieve the data from the Resonance Realms, the group's Techno could feel a chill like someone just walked over their recycle bin, or get some sort of oblique warning from a sprite, or the Resonance itself.
Give them a chance to realize what's happening and take action, or at least give them enough clues that when you drop the hammer they can look back and see that they have only themselves to blame.
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Several good Ideas here. just to reiterate the ones I find very important to your cause. and add my 2 cents.
Anarkitty: The kid was the son of someone important. this is great for continuing the story.
If you want your players to not just go around murdering people then they need to sometimes realize that those are people too and that they may have connections and so on. the ramifications of actions can ripple out causing major problems down the line. Remember kids, your a criminal and they don't tend to just go out and try to make people notice them in everyday life. unless they need to make a distraction of course and even then they cover their hoop.
Use public awareness and notoriety to your advantage here. It usually really sucks when you can't negotiate up fees or get information because your the kind of people no one wishes to be associated with because you deal with tanomous or murder kids for no reason. Wow, is there actually a reason to murder kids? I've been playing SR too long. :)
Rhat: interlacing is a very important skill to develop.
This can't be stressed enough. and there are lots of tricks to get the party back on track and all doing stuff. This is usually where the design of the module comes into place. And feel free to run it by the community they will give you tons of advice before game to help you make sure the game is not boring for your players. they may not make it through the game but it won't be boring. :)
The primary way is the team needs to get the hacker into the building to get to the archives, the backup system, or the evidence system all together. the system could be off line unable to be accessed via wireless due to attenuation and so forth. not to mention that this is Ares and they have access to programs that are higher than 6. your technomancer may be good but when facing firewall 8, system 8 with analyze 9 running and two pieces of IC also running analyze 9 on everything every turn. This is just the access node that connects to an even higher rated evidence node, more than likely he will get caught. and massive combat with several IC and Spiders will ensue. Not to mention he needs a biometric passkey to access the node. To me it sounds like the easiest way to do this is to get a detective drunk still his badge have the mage physical mask our infiltration specialist and then open up the motor pool during the slower night shift. While we are smoozing the detective the technomancer can locate several building that will just suddenly give off false panic alarms to get the majority of the cops out of the building and then hack grid guide to make sure they have problems getting back in time to catch us. Then we can move to where the backup are stored and set the corrupt file into action with the sprite the technomancer cooked up to do just that with the detectives logins. Though on second thought I doubt I would even wish to do this at all especial for free for some jerk-off that murdered a kid. bullet to his head tie a ribbon on his toe and drop him out a van on KE's doorstep problem hopefully solved. .
Falconer: When your unfamiliar with a system it makes simple tasks take longer than what they normally would.
To me simple tasks should be simple. don't bog the game down with things that aren't important. if your hacker is trying to get the layout of the bar you are meeting the johnson in and he wants admin to the system, why is this a problem? give it to him, no roll move on. If the hacker has admin on the node that the security door is connected to then no roll move on, its within his access privileges and he can issue it a legitimate command. Tell him to make and extended test and the target number he needs, which he could figure out if he would just make a perception test on the node, and then tell you how many rolls he had to make. While he is rolling to his hearts content you can focus on the rest of the party and what they are doing, if they are just standing around have them make perception tests and hear something that may be a guard they investigate and its not. The hacker tells you 2 tries you ask him his stealth roll twice and if you beet it deal with that and actually throw a guard at the rest or tell the one with the highest electronics skill that he thinks he may be able to bypass the door lock, so you have a combat and hacking going on or something else. The point is their is never a reason that the players should have to feel bogged down by one player something else is going on.
Past that I would just like to make a commented on something you said that really bothered me. you said that your group wouldn't switch to another system you wanted to use when you where unhappy with shadowrun. You should never feel pressured by the group to GM or to do something that you are not having fun with. You should talk to them about that and as your friends they should understand. Everyone should be having fun or whats the point in calling it "playing" it shouldn't feel like work.
as a parting note, remember feel free to run ideas past the posters here to glean information and ideas and if you don't understand something truly use the people here to your advantage, but make sure you pass the favor forward with the next guy needing help.
Hope this helps,
Red
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Though on second thought I doubt I would even wish to do this at all especial for free for some jerk-off that murdered a kid. bullet to his head tie a ribbon on his toe and drop him out a van on KE's doorstep problem hopefully solved.
Hahah, yep. I was a bit surprised when my players refused a run on the ground that it was a snatching of a kid. There are often different rules when it comes to kids. This issue came up on the TV show Breaking Bad too.
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when it comes to matrix, remember that it does actually work in the same time scale as everybody else on the 'run as it uses initiative passes just like astral and meatspace.
while he's hacking away in his hotsim 3 IP's, have the other team members be looking around corners, checking their sensors and keeping an eye out for guards/drones/camera's etc.
also, if you're getting into a high security area, it is perfectly feasible that the security is hardwired, rather than wireless, meaning he'll have to crack out the tools and work in meatspace like everyone else.
if his hacking is too easy, have the appropriate security measures for the facility be present on the system. higher end facilities will have much better rating analyze + very high firewall, gratuitious amounts of IC, databombs on important files, spiders (onsite hackers) responding to threats and engaging him in Cybercombat with several agents in support, the whole shebang! have the defenders spend some edge too, really put him through his paces.
also, they will have important places that need defending be covered in wifi-inhibiting paint, or use very low signal ratings to stop remote hackers. this means he'll need your team to get him past the guards or pull a scam to get passkeys etc.
he'll need to be onsite with the team, which means you can effectively interleave the initiative passes with the team as they fend off guards, rapid response teams and drones, rather than everyone sitting around the breakfast table while he remotely hacks and owns the enemy systems.
have a look through the system design section of unwired too. its not a case of exploit + hacking and thats it, you've got the whole system..
a set up will have a lot of nodes (individual servers running different tasks)
you'll maybe have one node running user sessions for KE operatives at the station (things like the email and printing servers, user log in, personal storage of files). this will be relatively lower security than the rest of the system because security is expensive and this isnt the mission critical bit. this node will be connected via a *very* secure connection (super high firewall, lots of IC, biometric access codes for only detectives on the case + administrators etc) to a series of other nodes that store data on the arrested criminals, open cases, closed cases and evidence archives. each thing (like an evidence archive) will have a separate hyper secure connection (requiring more hacking tests), with lots of IC to avoid/defeat and databombs on important files.
KE know that hackers want to get into their systems so they will deffo take pre-cautions to keep them out!
remember as a GM, you need to scale the challenge up for all your matrix players just as you do with the combat optimised elf street sam. if your hacker can pwn your average megacorp server, then double the defences for the next batch of runs. he wont enjoy it if its too easy, and he'll feel more part of the team effort than a random add-on when he has to share IP's with the other guys