Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Voran on <05-31-19/1514:03>
-
So i've been taking the time to reread all my SR 3 through 5 materials to remember the game world/setup and I realized there were some characterization things associated with some "Legendary Runner" chars (usually seen as the 'named runners used as jackpointers/etc in the books) that I wish get resolved in some ways.
No particular order:
Clockwork. It might be surprising but I don't have any real issue with the conflict between him and Netcat/Slammo/etc, or really mind about the 'he gets to be a colossal dick and his character shields protect him because the devs/writers need his mouth/angle for fluff'. What oddly bothered me was apparently he can Deep Foundation dive and be superhacker on it. I don't want him killed, but it'd be nice if he wasn't apparently Mary Sue tier uberskilled.
In a similar sense, Puck. mr. no consequences for the shit I pull because I'm Righteous!. Selfish asshat on the scale of no other, king of getting duped and not learning from it, instead making things worse. If there was one char in the entire game series I'd want to get horribly consequenced, its Puck. he's worse than a child rapist mass murderer who is always, "its not my fault for hooking up with Mecha-Hitler" or something.
Bull. I like Bull in general. I also get his hateboner for Harlequin. But what bugged me? His takeaway from the Denver stuff, where Harle fought Ghostwalker. I don't get how Bull is all, "YEAH, Harle got his ass kicked. yeah!" as opposed to, "Holy Shit, this guy I have a massive hateboner for and talk shit about how I'm gonna get him....JUST SOLO FOUGHT A GREAT FRAGGIN DRAGON"
more as I finish up my re-reads.
-
If two dinosaurs fight do you get upset about it?
Rest assured both are just plot monsters. Ghostwalker is just less warm fuzzy BiG D. Root for whomever you like better.
-
I haven’t liked the characters since 3e. And honestly it’s more late 2e where I my interest dropped off. They seemed more part of the setting back then instead of set pieces, preachy, or designers pet PCs .
-
Aren't they all uberskilled Mary Sues of a sort? (You could argue whether Mary Sue fits; it's about being an author insert in fan fiction to steal the limelight from the real protagonists. Actually, maybe they are Mary Sues.)
I see them mostly as vehicles to provide information and perspectives in confusing and impenetrable ways. They're not necessarily canon in my campaign.
-
The old characters had a more limited presence, they mostly just commented in the books. Major events didn’t always include them. You could go read the novels and have little if any Shadowland presence. Sam Verner (Find Your Own Truth), Kyle Teller (Burning Bright), and Dirk Montgomery (House of the Sun) weren’t on Shadowland but were all front and center for major events of that era. Now it seems like the Jackpoint crew are the only people in the world doing anything significant. With the decrease in the number of novels and almost all at least having a Jackpoint cameo I think it would help broaden things if they had an occasional source book that wasn’t Jackpoint but some other Datahaven.
-
Aren't they all uberskilled Mary Sues of a sort? (You could argue whether Mary Sue fits; it's about being an author insert in fan fiction to steal the limelight from the real protagonists. Actually, maybe they are Mary Sues.)
I see them mostly as vehicles to provide information and perspectives in confusing and impenetrable ways. They're not necessarily canon in my campaign.
Mostly of them street legends dating from 4e and 5e aren’t too bad. There are couple hold overs from the 2e days. But do think I should point out this is somewhat contradictory given that most have said they like 2nd best in terms of edition, and has to be story because the system was certainly not good as any more recent versions. 2nd is where most of the OP npc came in. Often inherited from/as links to the other game, a concept that no longer exist in a post freedonian aeronautics and space administration
Now it is worth noting we are going to have certain major npcs that can’t be avoided, the major dragons, the ceos, certain story npcs. But mostly 5e has kept it pretty reasonable. The street legend quality is op. But its easy to ignore if you don’t think it fits at your table. The street legends are generally good character examples. Calling them designer character is strange to me, they are made to be rep archetypes and concepts.
Certainly several of the major npcs from the seasons have been as strong or stronger then the street legends.
-
They came across as more Mary Sue like in 4e and 5e overall. 1-3e has fastjack and maybe neon samurai and some immortal types. But the majority of them didn’t read as more important than the pcs. More colleague level. 4e+ it seemed the setting revolves around them more than just being part of the setting.
Also I don’t think any edition has a edge on mechanics. They each have strengths and flaws.
-
What I liked about Shadowland is that it was populated by a bunch of randos. Sure, you'd recognize names as you went through, and some of them were heavy hitters - like Laughing Man and the Orange Queen - but the rest of them were just some fragging guy. Or gal. I really liked that because it made it seem like the players were part of this big, broad (under)world with lots of voices.
I dislike the Jackpoint commentators because I don't want to hear from the same 20 people over and over again. It makes the world feel closed and insular, like there's this clique that you'll never break into. I want commentary from randos and anonymous posters who can share their own unique experiences, rather than the current approach where interesting things only happen to the same 20 people in the shadows.
-
I know that part of Tecumseh's problem is because JackPoint is an "Invitation Only" club sort of place, but I do admit, I like the idea more of random one-off people asking for clarification, rather than advice and arguing coming from a clique on high. Mainly because it sends the idea of, yeah, you're part of this big, underground network, rather than the major NPCs of editions past are having their fun in this one place you can never join. Not really any problem to me, but I get it.
Though, I never had any problem with canon NPCs being Better Than You At Everything. Mainly because they're never actually supposed to directly steal the spotlight from you, unless the GM has Damien Knight or Ghostwalker or someone personally show up and make fun of you. Then it's the GM's doing.
-
Upside of a limited cast is being able to actually develop personalities.
-
Shadowland was a BBS... or Bulletin Board System for those who grew up with the internet (as this term predates the internet). That you needed to hack into to get into.... it was the ultimate case of you both had to know its LTG, and THEN you had to hack it!
When the matrix got reworked into the matrix 2.0 (which more closely resembles the internet we know and love today), the system had to change to reflect that.... And thus it became a "Facebook private page" where you could only get into if you were granted permission... (In theory you could hack it... and get to deal with IC based off the attack program that stopped a matrix destroying super virus -GOOD LUCK!)
So... yea. Fanpro dropped the ball meta wise there. They turned shadowland/jackpoint from a resource to an echo chamber :(
-
So we all agree then? Shadowrun 4chan was better than Shadowrun Reddit.
-
Upside of a limited cast is being able to actually develop personalities.
That is true, and it's only natural that writers would want to write more about their previous one-offs, after wondering what they'd be like.
-
I do appreciate the notion of 'limit your chars to let them grow'. I imagine its also hard to balance the "after a decade the same chars get a bit stale.." thing too. Heh I do find it funny devgrrl is probably mid-heading-to-late-twenties now.
-
Upside of a limited cast is being able to actually develop personalities.
Which potentially could be a asset if you like them. Even then though I think the cons outweigh the benefits. Previously they had a handful of characters who were repeats like smiling bandit to develop characters but a pile of randos. Also the repeat characters didn’t feel like they were the ones handing setting changing stories.
-
So we all agree then? Shadowrun 4chan was better than Shadowrun Reddit.
Or...
Is this a case or art imitating life?
-
Eh like I said I like the smaller cast for character development. So Reddit.
-
I do appreciate the notion of 'limit your chars to let them grow'. I imagine its also hard to balance the "after a decade the same chars get a bit stale.." thing too. Heh I do find it funny devgrrl is probably mid-heading-to-late-twenties now.
Only in her twenties? Is that how short she's been around? I recently came to the realisation that many famous Shadowrun characters must be downright geriatric by now. Fastjack was 73 when he did that run on Celedir's lair. Isn't Richard Villiers in his 90s or something?
-
They came across as more Mary Sue like in 4e and 5e overall. 1-3e has fastjack and maybe neon samurai and some immortal types. But the majority of them didn’t read as more important than the pcs. More colleague level. 4e+ it seemed the setting revolves around them more than just being part of the setting.
Also I don’t think any edition has a edge on mechanics. They each have strengths and flaws.
So please define Mary Sue for me.
-
I do appreciate the notion of 'limit your chars to let them grow'. I imagine its also hard to balance the "after a decade the same chars get a bit stale.." thing too. Heh I do find it funny devgrrl is probably mid-heading-to-late-twenties now.
Only in her twenties? Is that how short she's been around? I recently came to the realisation that many famous Shadowrun characters must be downright geriatric by now. Fastjack was 73 when he did that run on Celedir's lair. Isn't Richard Villiers in his 90s or something?
I'd have to check, but I *think* /dev's just about to turn 30. (Oh lord, we're all old!)
But, yes, several 'runners are getting on in years. Some people, like Villers, can go the Leonization route, but...
-
They came across as more Mary Sue like in 4e and 5e overall. 1-3e has fastjack and maybe neon samurai and some immortal types. But the majority of them didn’t read as more important than the pcs. More colleague level. 4e+ it seemed the setting revolves around them more than just being part of the setting.
Also I don’t think any edition has a edge on mechanics. They each have strengths and flaws.
So please define Mary Sue for me.
Technically it’s a flawless character. But that doesn’t apply in shadowrun they all have flaws. Mary Sue is usually used to describe people who are too powerful.
And while I admit the immortal elves qualify I don’t put them in that category because they are setting pieces not your supposed peers. 1-2e there were a couple top characters like fast jack. But those are in 4e+ as well. In 4e+ the characters shape the setting more instead of being in the background. That’s a level of power the earlier edition peeps didn’t have. Fastjack May have been the best but he wasn’t part of the story for the most part. Just a dude on shadowland.
-
So please define Mary Sue for me.
The world and its rules bend to accommodate them, and not the other way around. Using Clockwork as an example: he is both a decker and a drone rigger, and he is very competent in both roles. While it's not hard to obtain the skills necessary to be competent in both roles, having a good cyberdeck, a good RCC and a variety of drones would be obscenely expensive. As a person, he is thoroughly unlikable. He is hostile, bitter, vindictive, abrasive, openly bigoted and has a poor sense of humor. Despite this, people keep working with him....or at least, he keeps getting hired, because he's a loner too. On top of being so generally unpleasant, he has also made death threats against other Jackpointers and even one of their children. Yet, he retains his Jackpoint membership, and no one he has threatened has decided to simply off him first.
-
If two dinosaurs fight do you get upset about it?
Rest assured both are just plot monsters. Ghostwalker is just less warm fuzzy BiG D. Root for whomever you like better.
...my namesake would have rooted for Ghostwalker. In 2E, she went through both of Harlequin's "little games" and loathed him.
-
They came across as more Mary Sue like in 4e and 5e overall. 1-3e has fastjack and maybe neon samurai and some immortal types. But the majority of them didn’t read as more important than the pcs. More colleague level. 4e+ it seemed the setting revolves around them more than just being part of the setting.
Also I don’t think any edition has a edge on mechanics. They each have strengths and flaws.
...loved The Smiling Bandit - [Strikes-again/Ha-Ha-Ha] though.
-
I do appreciate the notion of 'limit your chars to let them grow'. I imagine its also hard to balance the "after a decade the same chars get a bit stale.." thing too. Heh I do find it funny devgrrl is probably mid-heading-to-late-twenties now.
Only in her twenties? Is that how short she's been around? I recently came to the realisation that many famous Shadowrun characters must be downright geriatric by now. Fastjack was 73 when he did that run on Celedir's lair. Isn't Richard Villiers in his 90s or something?
I'd have to check, but I *think* /dev's just about to turn 30. (Oh lord, we're all old!)
But, yes, several 'runners are getting on in years. Some people, like Villers, can go the Leonization route, but...
Dev was born in 2056, so she's 24 in 2080.
-
They came across as more Mary Sue like in 4e and 5e overall. 1-3e has fastjack and maybe neon samurai and some immortal types. But the majority of them didn’t read as more important than the pcs. More colleague level. 4e+ it seemed the setting revolves around them more than just being part of the setting.
Also I don’t think any edition has a edge on mechanics. They each have strengths and flaws.
...loved The Smiling Bandit - [Strikes-again/Ha-Ha-Ha] though.
I loved a lot of them. Smiling bandit being a favorite.
4e plus I can’t think of one I give a shit about.
-
Technically it’s a flawless character. But that doesn’t apply in shadowrun they all have flaws. Mary Sue is usually used to describe people who are too powerful.
And while I admit the immortal elves qualify I don’t put them in that category because they are setting pieces not your supposed peers. 1-2e there were a couple top characters like fast jack. But those are in 4e+ as well. In 4e+ the characters shape the setting more instead of being in the background. That’s a level of power the earlier edition peeps didn’t have. Fastjack May have been the best but he wasn’t part of the story for the most part. Just a dude on shadowland.
So here's the thing. Mary sues aren't flawless characters. Mary Sue is a reference to the Brady bunch tv show. Mary sue characters are those whom everything just goes right for, just b/c they are whom they are. Nothing bad Happens to a Mary Sue. The term has become wildly miss-used on internet. No character in the jack point group fits that description. If you want to say they are really strong characters or they are unrealistic character certainly some of them meet some of those standards.
-
Yknow, its not really an annoyance/etc, but another thing I noticed with the Legendaries and Jackpointers highlights what I feel is a disconnect with the narrative-drama fluff and the ruleset.
When you look at all the jackpointers and shadowtalkers and stuff, they're all pretty much soloists, maaybe pairing up with each other once in awhile. The way they get described in the various ministories in the source books/etc, they're seemingly always running solo, doing entire runs worth of stuff by themselves apparently. Maybe someone like Clockwork or one of the riggers, or Mercs talks about working with a team but usually its not a 'core team' its faceless mooks they're using to fill slots, or nameless guys in a larger merc operation.
On the other hand, as a social game, SR is kind of setup as 'you get a table group and you guys make a team' and unless chars are dying left and right, generally repeat table sessions means repeat chars. I mean, its not a huge deal, and some of the narrative fluff does nicely show 'not legendaries' doing teamwork, for good or ill.
-
The 'Mary Sue' concept actually traces back to an early (& really horrible) Star Trek fanfic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
-
Technically it’s a flawless character. But that doesn’t apply in shadowrun they all have flaws. Mary Sue is usually used to describe people who are too powerful.
And while I admit the immortal elves qualify I don’t put them in that category because they are setting pieces not your supposed peers. 1-2e there were a couple top characters like fast jack. But those are in 4e+ as well. In 4e+ the characters shape the setting more instead of being in the background. That’s a level of power the earlier edition peeps didn’t have. Fastjack May have been the best but he wasn’t part of the story for the most part. Just a dude on shadowland.
So here's the thing. Mary sues aren't flawless characters. Mary Sue is a reference to the Brady bunch tv show. Mary sue characters are those whom everything just goes right for, just b/c they are whom they are. Nothing bad Happens to a Mary Sue. The term has become wildly miss-used on internet. No character in the jack point group fits that description. If you want to say they are really strong characters or they are unrealistic character certainly some of them meet some of those standards.
Even using that definition 4e+ are more Mary Sue than the earlier edition shadowland characters.
-
For what it's worth, Bull knows full well that he'd get smeared by Harlequin. But he has a grudge he just can't let go. And it'll possibly get him killed one of these days. Unless Harlequin decides to duel him in the matrix :)
-
"Hey, Bull, you know that guy that keeps topping your scores in that game you play when bored? 69_Chuckling_Dude_69? Guess who he is?"
-
Even using that definition 4e+ are more Mary Sue than the earlier edition shadowland characters.
I mean there is plenty of Shadowland characters to not like, and by all means don't like them, b/c they horrible people, or just maybe they just rub you the wrong way. But to be clear a character ether is a marysue or is not. It's not a spectrum, they aren't more Marysue or less Marysue. Just as an example I can't stand Clockwork. There is no reason to believe a runner with rep for eating his team mates would last a month in the shadows, and every reason to believe he'd be dead door knob 10 mins for before his next run started. If clockwork ever showed up in an official missions, I'd bet plenty of people would go way out of their way up to including failing the run to kill him, just b/c not doing so is to dangerous. All the hacker Hubby and wife had to do get rid of the jerk, was send his address to the buddies of those he ate. That would have been the end of that. But for whatever reason the devs like to keep that monster around thus he is a plot protected, Douche waffle. Be that doesn't make him a Marysue.
-
People he … ate?
Is there something I should know?
Did Clockwork become a Ghoul when I wasn't looking?
-
People he … ate?
Is there something I should know?
Did Clockwork become a Ghoul when I wasn't looking?
As far as I know he is not ghoul, just a total psycho. It's in one of his write ups.
Clockwork is first class bad news and needs to go.
-
The "legendary" runners don't bother me much, either in personality or stats. I do wish the high tier magic types weren't so ludicrous (do we really need anything with a magic attribute of 36?), but that is a relatively minor eye roll.
What does grate me are the stat blocks that aren't even legal. Serrin Sol from Court of Shadows springs to mind instantly with his magic attribute 10 but initiate grade 18. Come on guys give us a break.
-
Most of the cast in the Seilie Court are immortal elves. Stats blocks for those and Great Dragons shouldn’t be printed simply because they are at the “Snap my fingers, you vanish from history” kind of power level
-
I mean there is plenty of Shadowland characters to not like, and by all means don't like them, b/c they horrible people, or just maybe they just rub you the wrong way. But to be clear a character ether is a marysue or is not. It's not a spectrum, they aren't more Marysue or less Marysue. Just as an example I can't stand Clockwork. There is no reason to believe a runner with rep for eating his team mates would last a month in the shadows, and every reason to believe he'd be dead door knob 10 mins for before his next run started. If clockwork ever showed up in an official missions, I'd bet plenty of people would go way out of their way up to including failing the run to kill him, just b/c not doing so is to dangerous. All the hacker Hubby and wife had to do get rid of the jerk, was send his address to the buddies of those he ate. That would have been the end of that. But for whatever reason the devs like to keep that monster around thus he is a plot protected, Douche waffle. Be that doesn't make him a Marysue.
It does, actually. He acts shitty and he doesn't suffer consequences. And he's just the tip of the iceberg, as you have deckers engaging in cybercombat right in the commentary. Try that in meatspace with a bunch of streetsams and see what happens.
-
Doesn't suffer consequences?
I guess folks missed the Safehouses e-book. ;D
-
I didn't see anything in there concerning clockwork getting his comeuppance... hell, he and Netcat were getting along in that one.
-
Perhaps he meant that the Jackpoint profile at the beginning of the PDF, which clearly belongs to someone whom has pissed off the whole community recently, is Clockwork's. But the point remains:he hasn't been kicked off Jackpoint and doxxed, despite making death threats against other Jackpointers and their child.
-
It does, actually. He acts shitty and he doesn't suffer consequences. And he's just the tip of the iceberg, as you have deckers engaging in cybercombat right in the commentary. Try that in meatspace with a bunch of streetsams and see what happens.
Bad things have happened to Clockwork. But He is just still alive. (Which I don't love.) But not getting dead does not make one a Marysue.
Next fights in meat space happen all the time in SR, why is that an issue?
-
This Clockwork guy sounds like total dreck. Have the story arcs involving these "legendary shadowrunners" definitively concluded, or will any of these OP characters be making future appearance in SR?
-
Bad things have happened to Clockwork. But He is just still alive. (Which I don't love.) But not getting dead does not make one a Marysue.
That's not the issue. The issue is that people's reactions to him do not line up with his actions. Think of it like this: what would happen if your character went onto Jackpoint and threatened the crotchspawn of Slamm-0! and Netcat? How long would it before every device you own has been bricked and every enemy you've ever made knows everything they could ever want to know about you?
Next fights in meat space happen all the time in SR, why is that an issue?
It's an issue because it's a good way to get kicked out of all but the scummiest establishments and convince everyone that you're a total psycho. I should imagine that it's more or less the same for matrix fights. These people are supposed to be veteran, respected members of the shadowrunning community that everyone looks up to as role models and turns to for information, and this is how they act?
-
I honestly think there should not be a “cast”. Instead it should just be random users. The setting doesn’t need sitcom level drama, especially not without consequences.
JackPoint shouldn’t knit them together at impossible levels. Keep this sort of fiction to the novels :/
-
As memory serves Slamm-O showed up in several 4e mods I had a character play in and we talked all kinds of shit to him. Nothing came of it.
-
I honestly think there should not be a “cast”. Instead it should just be random users. The setting doesn’t need sitcom level drama, especially not without consequences.
JackPoint shouldn’t knit them together at impossible levels. Keep this sort of fiction to the novels :/
Except no one buys the novels.
-
JackPoint shouldn’t knit them together at impossible levels. Keep this sort of fiction to the novels :/
Except no one buys the novels.
That is a sad truth.
I feel like that really, really needs to change. My thought would be Audiobook up the old library while farming out for a new series? I think the best option would be follow the example of the industry, make up Iconic archetype examples, and give each one a novel and have them run together, link it up with a cool meta plot, and if it is successful expand out from there. Make sure to make them go like your default SR home game, have meeting up initial run, some tense scenes from each iconics example, then everyone share the best life style in the party.
Best of friends, or at least Frienemies.
Don't connect them to a data-heaven directly.
-
JackPoint shouldn’t knit them together at impossible levels. Keep this sort of fiction to the novels :/
Except no one buys the novels.
That is a sad truth.
I feel like that really, really needs to change. My thought would be Audiobook up the old library while farming out for a new series? I think the best option would be follow the example of the industry, make up Iconic archetype examples, and give each one a novel and have them run together, link it up with a cool meta plot, and if it is successful expand out from there. Make sure to make them go like your default SR home game, have meeting up initial run, some tense scenes from each iconics example, then everyone share the best life style in the party.
Best of friends, or at least Frienemies.
Don't connect them to a data-heaven directly.
They tried that in 3E with the Kellan Colt novels and it didn't work. They've been publishing e-books more than print nowadays to get people interested and keep the cost low, and no one is interested.
-
Still, the sourcebooks should be more the game setting and rules than straight up fiction. While fiction is good it’s mostly glanced over once while rules and general crunch is revisited again and again.
-
Eh, I actually like it. But I understand some don't, and there needs to be a proper balance, and more side-characters.
-
They made audiobooks in 3e? Also it’s been awhile sense 3e maybe try again?
-
As memory serves Slamm-O showed up in several 4e mods I had a character play in and we talked all kinds of shit to him. Nothing came of it.
But did you threaten his child while implying that you know where he lives? I don't think you did.
-
I think we were in his apartment. But he was single at the time.
-
Still, the sourcebooks should be more the game setting and rules than straight up fiction. While fiction is good it’s mostly glanced over once while rules and general crunch is revisited again and again.
See, I'm the opposite. I look up rules when I need to, but I consistently go back to the books for the dialogues. It's the thing I look forward to with each book and the reason I buy them.
-
RE: Clockwork
Thinking about it, I can understand reasons why the writers would keep him around: in case of a Devil's Advocate perspective, to show that Jackpointers aren't entirely Nice/Good Guys, and as an easy go-to source of internal conflict. Then, for occasional catharsis, he'll get temporarily banned and/or dumpshocked. From a rules mechanics standpoint, hasn't the guy been around for an edition or two? Plus, he's the sort to happily take "Low Karma/High Money" runs, so, sure, he's good at two of the most expensive niches at once.
Even still, the fact that this guy has harassed mods and their family on multiple occasions and has never been lethally double-crossed in a run strains credulity at times.
Also, looking back, JackPoint has invited new people on at certain points of most rulebooks, even if it is just to introduce new rules sections. So I don't really mind how it's gone.
-
Heh, man the novels. I'm pretty sure I had all the ones up to around mid-90s. Anyhoo I feel like maybe I should apologize for bringing the 'mary sue' stuff in, it kinda went on a tangent :)
I don't mind named runners and stuff, tho as I get older and the game gets older you start realizing how old some of the chars are getting :P And they can't all be immortal :)
That said, I dunno, how do you guys feel about the jackpointer type voice stuff? I find it useful as inserts between all the crunch of systems, its kind of a tried/true formula at this point, I don't really have any suggestions on what might be a better approach. I know other systems use other means, but ever since the shadowland BBS style from the SR1 days its just seemed a natural progression.
-
No worries Voran, most players just don't like that there are characters that could beat up their characters without breaking a sweat and somehow feels that lessens the game as a whole.
-
I have occasionally unleashed Valkyrie Knights on runners creating a mess at open events (as the runs were planned to, incidentally) and they enjoy it. =) My players from my home campaign are still scared by both Kalanyr ('huh, a fast human using Movement, let's play tag') and the elite HTR units that Knight Errant had available, despite their own 400+ karma. Is great. ;D