Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: psycho835 on <07-26-15/2107:44>
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Has one ever been stated? If no, well here's my valiant efort:
Accuracy: 5
Reach: 1/2
DV: (STR+3)P/(STR+5P)
AP: -4
Availability: 10R
Cost: 4000Y
NOTE: Can be wielded in either one (stats before slash) or two hands (stats after slash). When wielded in both hands, it is compatible with Kunst des Fechten. When wielded in one hand, it can be used with Fiore del Liberi.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
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Away from books ATM,
How does that compate to the mono sword (1 handed sword) and the Katana (the classical 2 handed sammy sword)
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Has one ever been stated? If no, well here's my valiant efort:
Accuracy: 5
Reach: 1/2
DV: (STR+3)P/(STR+5P)
AP: -4
Availability: 10R
Cost: 4000Y
NOTE: Can be wielded in either one (stats before slash) or two hands (stats after slash). When wielded in both hands, it is compatible with Kunst des Fechten. When wielded in one hand, it can be used with Fiore del Liberi.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
A Katana is a single sided blade Bastard Sword... contrary to popular belief it was in no way special except for being about 4 centuries earlier in creation. Any European Bastard Sword would use the same stats as a Katana, you just describe it differently.
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I have to agree with Zhoul on this, stats should be about the same as the Katana. Though I feel the katana has far too high of accuracy. If you want it different keep it to the same stats as the Katana but lower Accuracy to 5 and raise Armor Pen to -4. If used one handed gets the same stats as a regular sword. (So lower damage and lower armor pen.)
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Has one ever been stated? If no, well here's my valiant efort:
Accuracy: 5
Reach: 1/2
DV: (STR+3)P/(STR+5P)
AP: -4
Availability: 10R
Cost: 4000Y
NOTE: Can be wielded in either one (stats before slash) or two hands (stats after slash). When wielded in both hands, it is compatible with Kunst des Fechten. When wielded in one hand, it can be used with Fiore del Liberi.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
I think those're a little high, just comparing them to the "sword" and the "katana" (which might as well just say "two handed sword") in the Core rulebook.
That said, I also think there's no real need to stat it out. Me? I'd just look at "sword" and "katana" and say "Hey, if you want a big sword balanced to be used with both hands sometimes, pay for the more expensive sword (the katana). When you wield it with one hand treat it like a sword, when you wield it with both hands treat it like a katana (by giving yourself +1 accuracy and 1 better AP)," and I'd call it a day.
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make it simpler
a Bastardsword single handed uses the Sword Data and two handed uses the Katana Data/Values
Cost = Katana
@ Martial Arts
a Bastardsword can NOT be used singlehanded for Fiore dei Liberi.( its too heavy .The Strain to your Wrists is too much to bear, even for a Char with STR 6. a Longsword would be the largest/heaviest Sword with whom You could practise Fiore Dei Liberi )
using it Two Handed for Kunst des Fechtens is OK though
Hough!
Medicineman
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make it simpler
a Bastardsword single handed uses the Sword Data and two handed uses the Katana Data/Values
Cost = Katana
@ Martial Arts
a Bastardsword can NOT be used singlehanded for Fiore dei Liberi.( its too heavy .The Strain to your Wrists is too much to bear, even for a Char with STR 6. a Longsword would be the largest/heaviest Sword with whom You could practise Fiore Dei Liberi )
using it Two Handed for Kunst des Fechtens is OK though
Hough!
Medicineman
Bad information here... that's not what swords weigh. Longswords average weight is 1.3kg (2.83 lbs) while Bastard Swords don't normally exceed 1.6kg (3.52 lbs.) Even going all the way up to big Two Handed swords will only get up to 3kg (6.6 lbs.) Swords are very very light & extremely well balanced so the weight is almost entirely in the hand. In that a European Bastard Sword is even better to use 1 handed than a Katana because the center of Balance is closer to the handle.
The misconceptions about sword weights is remarkably widespread but at no point is 7/10ths of a pound going to "break your wrist even for a Str 6 Character."
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Bad information here... that's not what swords weigh.
Its not only about the Weight . they are often quite similar (You're right with that) but they CAN differ by more than 1 or 1.5 Kilograms and that IS a Difference, especially if You want to do more than just Chop down at the Enemy.
Swords are not automised and the Weight of the same Category could differ by 1/2 a Kilo ( especially Long Sword or Bastardsword. a Claymore or Two Handed Sword maybe even by a Kilogram)
its about the Movement, the Momentum and changing it, which comes with Fiore Dei Liberi
It simply can not be done with a larger or heavier Sword than a Long Sword ( I wouldn't even do it with a Long Sword, but I was STR 3 (or 4 at best ) )
Swords are very very light & extremely well balanced so the weight is almost entirely in the hand.
Not so much with a Bastard Sword that can be carried with one Hand but you most often need both Hands to fight with it effectifely
In that a European Bastard Sword is even better to use 1 handed than a Katana because the center of Balance is closer to the handle.
not the One I used to fool around with ( I wouldn't call it fighting myself. Training, yes but not fighting)
The misconceptions about sword weights is remarkably widespread but at no point is 7/10ths of a pound going to "break your wrist even for a Str 6 Character."
according to my own Experience I've had with Sword, Long Sword and Bastardsword
a Bastard Sword is unsuitable for the one Handed Maneuvers you need for Fiore Dei Liberi (especially a Bastard Sword in one Hand and a Swordbreakerdagger in the other)
fighting with a Bastardsword with two Hands and using Manuvers presented in Kunst des Fechtens is OK though
With a Swords Dance
Medicineman
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Honestly many bastard swords you will come across are only slightly larger than a regular longsword, with a longer hilt to allow a 2 handed grip which also has an additional weight on the end, bringing that center of gravity closer to the hands. These versions can easily be handled 1 or 2 handedly and was what I had back in the day during the service when the feel of steel was appealing.
Sure there are some oversized monsters out there, like someone who insists on combining a broadsword into the bastard sword design because it looks cool thanks to manga/anime, but that is more down to the smith's taste and what the customer wanted.
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according to my own Experience I've had with Sword, Long Sword and Bastardsword
a Bastard Sword is unsuitable for the one Handed Maneuvers you need for Fiore Dei Liberi (especially a Bastard Sword in one Hand and a Swordbreakerdagger in the other)
fighting with a Bastardsword with two Hands and using Manuvers presented in Kunst des Fechtens is OK though
Really? Hmm, all right, I'll take your word for it. Admittedly, while I read up on the german school I never before bothered with Fiori. And the whole mess started mostly because I wanted a weapon compatible with Kunst des Fechten that isn't useless when wielded in one hand, so...
I have to agree with Zhoul on this, stats should be about the same as the Katana. Though I feel the katana has far too high of accuracy. If you want it different keep it to the same stats as the Katana but lower Accuracy to 5 and raise Armor Pen to -4. If used one handed gets the same stats as a regular sword. (So lower damage and lower armor pen.)
As for stats, I was going for something betwen mono-sword and claymore. But yeah, modified katana stats ARE a better idea. Still, that's trading two for one. How does AC5/DV+4/AP-4 sounds? Or would AC6/DV+3/AP-4 be better?
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I have to agree with Zhoul on this, stats should be about the same as the Katana. Though I feel the katana has far too high of accuracy. If you want it different keep it to the same stats as the Katana but lower Accuracy to 5 and raise Armor Pen to -4. If used one handed gets the same stats as a regular sword. (So lower damage and lower armor pen.)
As for stats, I was going for something betwen mono-sword and claymore. But yeah, modified katana stats ARE a better idea. Still, that's trading two for one. How does AC5/DV+4/AP-4 sounds? Or would AC6/DV+3/AP-4 be better?
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Sometimes trading 2 for 1 is the better choice. With Accuracy it might be best to go one for one though. I would hesitate to add more damage to it, as 1 point of damage can be the same (for boxes of health), as 2-3 points of AP.
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@Medicineman... What is the quality of the swords you are training with? Are these relatively cheap swords or high quality like an Albion? Because the difference is substantial... I can't afford them but having gotten to use them before, you can definitely pull off a lot more maneuvers at much higher strike speed. The balance of blades like that especially with their faithfulness to medieval designs makes a huge difference. Fiore Dei Liberi is a Slashing Style not a fencers Thrusting Style that could definitely use a Bastard Sword, especially one based on medieval design. Which as Sendaz pointed out doesn't have a longer blade so much as a longer hilt which pulls the Balance of the sword even closer to the hand. Takes less effort from the wrist to slash & return to guard as such. Using the dagger in that style is like using a slightly more dangerous buckler... it has a small amount more offensive power with a little less defense. But I'm talking about Bastard Swords not Hand and a Half swords which are closer to Broadswords in design but we're a poorer man's sword in that the quality & balance of the blades was inferior. Or they were being used from horseback so the weight & balance made overhand chopping motions superior to get through Armor, and the negatives of the sword from a standing fight were turned into positives by higher positioning.
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To be fair, I always took the terms Bastard and Hand and Half to be pretty interchangeable, I was not aware they may have reflected two different subdivisions of swords.
That's what I get for ordering out of the back of MA mags. ;)
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To be fair, I always took the terms Bastard and Hand and Half to be pretty interchangeable, I was not aware they may have reflected two different subdivisions of swords.
The longer bladed ones are Hand and a Half swords... otherwise known as Horse Swords. They were a later variation to try to keep swords relevant in the wake of heavier armor. But picks & maces where far superior to damaging heavily armored opponents. So Hand and a Half swords became a poorer man's sword since they were usually made out of a cheaper steel with balance being not as important. Some Knights continued to use them but they were essentially being used as narrow hammers by the end of the 14th century. Their cheapness led to a much higher production of them as opposed to traditional Bastard Swords, so they kinda overtook that same slot from a broad historical point of view.
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@ Zhoul
@Medicineman... What is the quality of the swords you are training with?
it's been 10,12,15 Years Ago , while I did some Medievil Reenactment
( between 1995 and 2005)
I'm sorry but I don't really remember which Quality or Company they whre made of, but I suppose standard German Quality. nothing unsuitable for Fighting but nothing toooo Fancy/Expensive like Albion
The balance of blades like that especially with their faithfulness to medieval designs makes a huge difference
I know :)
Oh I found two interesting You tube Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb2Cvd_amEc
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWWpzXOuk_s
that I can totally Agree with
HokaHey
Medicineman
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Here's updated stats:
Accuracy: 6
Reach: 1
DV: (STR+3)P
AP: -4
Availability: 11R
Cost: 1000Y
NOTE: Can be wielded in either one (stats before slash) or two hands (stats after slash). When wielded in both hands, it is compatible with Kunst des Fechten.
The availability is a little harsher than katana because, well, katana is a horrible cliche that everyone tries to get their hands on the best selling sword in the sixth world, and therefore ubiquitous.
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I know :)
Oh I found two interesting You tube Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb2Cvd_amEc
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWWpzXOuk_s
that I can totally Agree with
HokaHey
Medicineman
But again... he didn't even make the distinction between Bastard Swords and Hand and a Half Swords. I agree that D&D is very wrong about melee weapons (Great Swords weighing in at 15 lbs when even the giant German Two Handers or Scottish Claymores were not even 7 lbs.) But Bastard Swords are still very light and can be used in place of a Longsword (Game term for an Arming Sword)... Hand and a Half Swords were Calvary swords not infantry, infantry would use them but not be choice. It was all they could get since they couldn't afford to buy a Bastard Sword or an Arming Sword. Those were much better quality steel & craftsmanship. Bastard Swords stayed in use since they were good for Half-Swording... which you can't use a shield or off hand dagger while doing. You could use both hands to swing the sword before you went back to holding the blade with one hand & the hilt with the other. Which is reflected in Kunst des Fechtens having that technique, the Italians not being soldiers or having standing armies (especially not fighting the French & Swiss) never had to develop the technique seeing as they rarely fought in or against people wearing plate.
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i think we're not exactly at the same Wavelength.
What I wanted to say is that in the Shadowrun Fiore Dei Liberi one of the Main Tactics is to Attack with two Swords
FIORE DEI LIBERI (TWO
WEAPON SWORD FIGHTING)
The great Italian fighter of the fourteenth century, Fiore
dei Liberi was both a mercenary and a fencing master.
Toward the end of his fighting career, he published a
martial arts manual of his various fighting techniques.
One of the emphases with this style was that of the
sword and dagger techniques. His preferred weapon
was the longsword, which places this weapon style between
Kunst des Fechten and Destreza.
Available Techniques: Called Shot (Break Weapon),
Opposing Force (Parry), Riposte, Two-Weapon-Style Attack,
Two-Weapon-Style Defense , Yielding Force (Riposte)
(and Psycho835 wanted to use a Bastard Sword singlehandedly for Shadowruns MA Fiore Dei Liberi)
and my answer that It is Impossible to do so with a Bastard Sword in One Hand and a Long Dagger in the Other Hand, not when the Bastard Sword (as I know it) needs usually Two hands to handle properly
Using a Sword, Sabre, Rapier , even a Long Sword (if You are Strong enough ) is OK but the "Line" is the Bastard Sword
That's all I have to say about it
With a Dance at the Line
Medicineman
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Do what D&D does give the same stats as katana and call it a day samurais used to two weapon katana in one and a wakizashi in the other hell theres an item pack for it and give bokken club stats but use blades skill
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Heh. My group just uses the Highlander Claymore stats from Run & Gun for a bastard sword for our troll street sam.
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For a troll, that's a good idea. For a human? Not so much.
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Maybe for a max str augment orc or human (even less so). But generally, no the highland claymore is designed around the true two-handed weapons such as Scottish claymore, nodachi, or zweihander. I would not normally let it be used as a one handed weapon.
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Maybe for a max str augment orc or human (even less so). But generally, no the highland claymore is designed around the true two-handed weapons such as Scottish claymore, nodachi, or zweihander. I would not normally let it be used as a one handed weapon.
It's not just about strength - a sword that big would be just plain awkward when wielded with one hand.
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Yeah, it would be horribly ineffective in majority of the cases where someone tried this.
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I got one word for ya: "Blam."
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I got one word for ya: "Blam."
Heh, reminds me of a video I saw once: Some guy (in Australua?) was in the middle of a street, swinging a sword around and going on about being 'The One' and belonging to Clan Macleod. The cops tried talking him down, which didn't work, and tried pepper spray, which just made him mad. A half dozen tazers later, fired all at once, and they were putting the cuffs on him.
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I got one word for ya: "Blam."
(http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/www.ign.com/627/2013/01/161440_o.gif)
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Harrison Ford was feeling miserable that day (Fewer and Diarrhea) so he decided to " finish the Scene earlier"
It was a good decision ImO
(that's the story behind Scene ;) )
with a Dance in Marokko
Medicineman
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Indeed, but it's still a great scene. ;D
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That for sure
One I remembered and WILL remember for my whole Life ;)
Hough !
Medicineman
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I got one word for ya: "Blam."
I got one for you: "spirits".
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I'll pitch in!
The general call that you should be somewhere between "Sword" and "Katana" is a good one, and there should be a modified statline depending on how you use it. Two hands is either greater control (Accuracy goes up) or greater power (damage goes up), depending on how you want to handle it.
As for the core stats, you want it to be *different* from a katana, so the two main options are to either A) trade Accuracy for damage or B) accuracy for armor-piercing. Damage is, IMHO, the better choice, which would later let you make armor-piercing weapons, like a mace or especially a spike/pickaxe, have a place.
The *easy* way is to say -1 Acc, +1 Dam, and call it a day. Probably drop the cost to about half-ish (5-600) and jack the availability by 4 since, as noted, Katana are *popular* and a bastard sword not so much.
You can add a "Two-handed" rule that would let you change the stats a bit in exchange for the penalty of tying up your other hand. +1 damage, or two more AP, for instance. Mind you, you'd probably want to go through and do a sort of universal rule for two-handed weapons. (Personally? Lower the Acc of all two-handed weapons by 2, then give them +2 acc when both hands are used. Thus, you can use a katana in one-hand, but it's more controllable with both. I'd be tempted to give a smaller bonus to certain other weapons (+1 for two-handing it) since, for instance, two-handing a pistol is much easier than one-handing it, even if it isn't *needed*, but, this might fall under the aiming rule or just "special effects" and storytelling.
...
I'm probably rambling now. Sorry about that.
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I just have to chime in here because I have an strong interest in HEMA and much of the information given here is mostly very wrong.
For the the Shadowrun weapon stats:
I would suggest just increasing the reach of the Katana by 1. Partially reflecting the longer blade and partially the difference in fighting techniques. Realistically there is no significant real difference between a Longsword and a Katana.
A sword is a sword, as discussed here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stjTXl5lrtI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stjTXl5lrtI)
Not flashy but it is realistic.
Also the weapon the OP is referring to is a longsword NOT a bastard sword. There is really no clear definition of a bastard sword but it SEEMS to be slightly smaller than a longsword and/or slightly larger than an arming sword. The idea that a bastard a) exists as a distinct weapon and b) is bigger than a longsword is purely a contrivance of D&D.
Here is a good link to a discussion on sword types:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk0GBKaMcgE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk0GBKaMcgE) and also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwdg6lblKow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwdg6lblKow)
Basically:
An arming sword is clearly one handed, with a hilt that only fits one hand though you can use it by gripping the pommel.
This is typically the traditional "sword." Though called a longsword in D&D.
A Longsword has space for two hands on the hilt, though on some swords the bottom of 2nd hand wraps over the pommel (a bastard sword?)
A Bastard sword in D&D
A greatsword is a massive sword with space for three+ hands on the hilt but occasionally even this can be used one handed.
The Bastard sword in D&D is the traditional Longsword. And a longsword is intended to be used both one and two handed, it is not some special exotic skill, but part of the basic sword technique. Also you wont break your wrist using a longsword one handed they are suppose to be used that way a fair bit. Also you wont break your wrist using a Zweihander (or Montante) one handed either but unless your spearing with it you will lack control. However theoretically you could use several Montante (great sword) techniques with one handed if you were desperate (say you had an injured arm.)
Montante in use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYNy_drriXs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYNy_drriXs)
I'm going to have to say that I am not certain on the differences between Fiore dei Liberi and Kunst des Fechtens. However as far as I can tell they both are simply national martial arts styles that cover a massive array of weaponry (or lack there of.) The longsword styles are apparently the most popular by a far cry, thus obviously since they are using a longsword then both styles use one handed and two handed techniques.
Scholagladiatoria (Matt Easton) trains specifically in Fiore dei Liberi and often uses his longsword in one hand so take that for what it is worth.
Also this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e_qJiNf8cw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e_qJiNf8cw) maybe worth a look as it shows the guard positions for Fiore, take note of the forward guard position that is why I say give longsword a better reach than katana. Look how far out the engagement range is in that position.
PS: Apparently Fiore dei Liberi is a person that wrote fighting treatise on how to use every weapon of his era, the longswording techniques are simply the most popular. Presumably he also wrote on sword and dagger techniques but I can't find examples of this.
PPS: Destreza is the Spanish version of the same. So consider Fiore, Destreza and Kunst to be akin to the differences between karate, kempo, and taekwondo.
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Thank you for your reality czech, Banjo, but it should be noted that we like most communities being D&D influenced, and we not trying to re-create the Middle Ages, and Reality actually starting to define and conform to the D&D concepts, we're pretty much going to keep talking about long swords and bastard swords.
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Actually, Banjo, I meant an actual bastard sword. I didn't know what blade length would be appropriate, so I assumed approx. 90 cm - what wikipedia* lists for shorter longswords. Add a hilt capable of accomodating two hands. Now, I've never actually had physical swords to compare lengths, but I think that's about 20 cm longer than katana - my reason for initially contemplating Reach 1/2. If I went for an actual longsword, I would've definitely gave it Reach 2, though I wouldn't be sure about other stats.
*Yeah, I know, wikipedia is not exactly the most reliable source of information for that kind of thing, but with the mentioned D&D-induced confusion about bastard swords I wouldn't be able to determine which site is legit and which is utter garbage. Ultimately, I decided to just wing it.