Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: shinryu on <08-11-13/1609:50>
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so, if i assume that the contact trigger for preparations means that anyone could carry the preparation around in a bag or other container and not actually set it off without reaching in and touching it, that means that mundanes have an option to port around one or more spells easily. i think this is great, and it's something that i'm surprised wasn't more prevalent in earlier editions. there's something awesomely atmospheric about the chromed-out sam going to the local street shaman for a protective fetish before a run.
so this means that one thing talismongers are likely to be making money on is selling these to mundanes. however, there's no direct pricing information for this sort of thing, so i'd like some input on educated guesses for how much a spell might sell for as a preparation.
factors to consider:
1) labor time is actually pretty negligible, four or five minutes for most spells.
2) material costs are also negligible, unless the maker uses reagents to increase limits on the spell. i imagine this is actually rather popular, however, since this allows the maker to use less force and risk less damage.
3) since the spell is traceable astrally, i can imagine the cost of a death touch or control thoughts preparation to be pretty high, though a death touch preparation on a stick, arrow, or your brass knuckles* is one of the best things you could have handy for spirits. alternatively, preparations like armor or mana barrier are relatively harmless and probably relatively cheap and legal to sell.
so figure maybe 50 nuyen an hour for a talismonger? so say, 10 nuyen for labor time, 60-100 nuyen for reagents, 20% profit margin? so 100 to 150 nuyen for a reasonable utility spell like armor or magic fingers; maybe even double that since magic is rare and all. probably at least 4 to 10 times that for manipulation or combat spells depending on force. sound about right?
*assume here the preparation is actually glued to the front of the knucks, so you're not touching it while you wear them. think like an o-fudo strip or something. punch somebody or something in the face, it's sure touching them though. a force 8 or 10 death touch or punch spell might be enough to do some damage to a spirit without seriously hurting the alchemist who makes it.
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2) material costs are also negligible, unless the maker uses reagents to increase limits on the spell. i imagine this is actually rather popular, however, since this allows the maker to use less force and risk less damage.
Yes, as long as they keep the limit below Magic. But keep in mind dropping Force also cuts minutes off the sustainment time, making them less valuable to the customer.
Price is going to be the intersection of supply and demand. The supply curve is going to depend on how many people know the appropriate preparation, the opportunity cost of other stuff they could be doing (wards, security, spirit provision, direct casting spells), and especially how much you have to compensate them for drain. I doubt a magician wants to risk getting slammed by drain every day, and even taking a mild headache every day in is going to cost. How much would you charge for someone to punch you in the gut, kick you in the balls, or inflict an hours long migraine on you?
Demand is how much you can get away paying. If you don't have a lot of competitors, people are going to be willing to pay a lot more than 150 nuyen for a Heal spell or Mana Barrier if they think they're likely to get shot or face magical opposition on a run.
I'd set prices based on a drain code (plus reagent cost), multiply by some factor for illegal or rare spells and especially by risk of being an accessory to a crime. It might be illegal to hand out Heal spells to someone not currently injured - what kind of person anticipates being injured in the next 24 hours (or however long it takes for the Potency to fade) enough to pay hundreds of nuyen for an auto-Heal?
So the guy dealing in preparations to the shadows is probably a low level initiate with Flexible Signature to minimize his exposure to trouble. That's going to cost. I'd probably call it 500+.
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Come to think of it, I expect you'd need a license just to even possess a Preparation, just like you have to be licensed to cast it. So the risk for the seller (and the price) just went up on everything.
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The fact that preparations don't last even a day heavily cuts down on their usefullness and the market for them, as there's no reason to buy one unless you seriously expect to need one in the next couple of hours.
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The fact that preparations don't last even a day heavily cuts down on their usefullness and the market for them, as there's no reason to buy one unless you seriously expect to need one in the next couple of hours.
Which is also what killed my spy-who-uses-alchemical-preparations-instead-of-technology idea. It just proved to be so much more hassle for less gain than just lugging some toys around.
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well, that's the thing, better to have and not need, right? if you know you're hitting that MCT facility tonight, i'd rather have a mana barrier or a healing preparation on me and have it fade away then to not have it when the HTR team comes calling. there's also the fixation metamagic to consider, which seems like a requirement for any serious alchemist. it's a bit more expensive than it really should be in terms of karma, i admit, especially compared to quickening. it does seem like alchemy is more of an NPC thing, though i did have a decent ninja alchemist mystic adept ginned up. those shuriken with a force 8 punch on them hurt like a bastard.
despite the cost and duration issues, if there's no real other way for a mundane to have magical abilities then you kind of have to take what you can get, no? i can see a lot of people who might reasonably expect to be hurt and/or need a mana barrier and/or want to turn invisible in the next few hours other than shadowrunners. bodyguards, HTR responders, VIPs leaving their arcologies for any reason at all, Johnsons expecting trouble at a meet, etc. several detection spells are the sort of thing you'd want to have just a bit more of an edge in, well, a lot of situations. detectives, pick up artists, suspicious wives, hunters...
for that matter, isn't it cheaper to have the DocWagon mage at HQ dial up some healing preparations to hand out to the trauma team then to have him risk his ass on a hot pickup? better yet, he can work his healing magic at multiple incidents this way, rather than having to actually be present to work on patients. same situation for an HTR team; i'd rather have a team alchemist gin up a few heals and mana barriers every night and have them ready to go on the sortie instead of having to have the very valuable mage directly exposed to fire. especially if said alchemist is a second-stringer or aspected alchemist that would probably just get killed in a real firefight anyway.
as far as legality, i can't imagine a preparation for a healing, detection or protection spell would be illegal very often as long as the maker is licensed. the point about flexible signature is well-taken if for no other reason than said alchemist wanting to avoid the red samurai knocking on his door trying to find out who bought from him earlier in the evening. control thoughts or combat spells, yeah, those are probably going to be illegal as all hell to possess. except, of course, for the brave boys on your friendly neighborhood HTR team.
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Considering that a Potency 6 preparation is only at maximum efficacy for 12 hours, and becomes useless after 18... It's not like you can in practical terms have a stock of these lying around, nor can you realistically buy them all that far in advance.
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it's fifteen minutes work for the mage at DocWagon to dial up three or four heals to be ready to go for the evening shift. if he's smart about the drain he probably will be ready to make three or four more in an hour. if a customer comes into your talisman shop and needs an armor amulet, five minutes of work makes you 500 nuyen. i don't really see the problem, honestly.
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Sure, for organizations like that such things would happen - but that's not the open market. On the open market, you're looking at custom work, in effect, with rates to suit due to the lower customer base - and prices to match.
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Sadly all spells from the healing category needs to have the command trigger. which means the caster needs to be present to trigger it :-\ (page 305)
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Sadly all spells from the healing category needs to have the command trigger. which means the caster needs to be present to trigger it :-\ (page 305)
Astral Projection is an option, however.
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Sadly all spells from the healing category needs to have the command trigger. which means the caster needs to be present to trigger it :-\ (page 305)
Well now thats a weird and arbitrary restriction, didn't even notice that before.
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Well, that restriction is in place for two reasons. 1) To keep people from whining that it makes healing too accessible, allowing mundanes to just grab magical healing in the middle of a run while the mage is busy, for example. 2) Game balance.
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Considering that a Potency 6 preparation is only at maximum efficacy for 12 hours, and becomes useless after 18... It's not like you can in practical terms have a stock of these lying around, nor can you realistically buy them all that far in advance.
That sounds like something that might be part of a well prepared security team though. "Son't forget to drop by the armory at the beginning of your shift to pick up your potion of Increased Reflexes. Let's be careful out there." Expensive over the long run, but I could see it as something you did for the week that uber-VIP bob was in town.
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Actually, not even all that expensive, Crunch, depending on the tradition and how you did preparations. If you, say, use the Touch trigger, and make onmyudo charms (something you'd definitely see in the Japanacorps where Shinto is a big thing) in a plastic bag, then all you have to do is open the bag and touch the charm to unleash the spell. And onmyudo charms are just strips of paper with writing on them. An Increase Reflexes, Armor, or Combat Sense charm would be very effective, I think.
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Cant do increased reflexes it's a health spell.
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You know, looking in the book, I don't see anything saying you can't do health spells as preparations. Someone quote text, please?
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You can do them. But they can't be triggered on Contact or on Time. p305, "Command triggers are the only triggers preparation with healing spells can have." The mage must have line of sight, be manifested if projecting and use a Simple action.
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Hmm. Well, Armor, Combat Sense, or the like would still work, then.
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Oh that one would be nice, instant Combat Sense and glowing Armor on your shocktroops. :)
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Actually, not even all that expensive, Crunch, depending on the tradition and how you did preparations. If you, say, use the Touch trigger, and make onmyudo charms (something you'd definitely see in the Japanacorps where Shinto is a big thing) in a plastic bag, then all you have to do is open the bag and touch the charm to unleash the spell. And onmyudo charms are just strips of paper with writing on them. An Increase Reflexes, Armor, or Combat Sense charm would be very effective, I think.
i like how you think. this is exactly what i'm talking about. bet money there's a miko sitting in every japanacorp HTR ready room with a sumi-e brush and a mild headache painting "fu-rin-ka-zan" on o-fudo over and over and over every night till her carpal tunnel kicks in.
forgot about that activation trigger problem, that sucks. nonetheless, it's still easier to have your medical response mage flit astrally from incident to incident setting off his preparations than to fly him between simultaneous car crashes or terrorist incidents, so it makes sense in that light. have your projecting security mage light up the increase reflexes or armor preps right before the HTR team hits the ground. etc.
or for runners or VIPs, easier to have a heal preparation handy and call your team mage or talismonger up to project over to your hiding place/safehouse and get you back to health then to stumble over there holding your guts in. i think that someone mentioned preparation bullets in the other thread, but i'm starting to think a crossbow and some arrows with punch around force 8/10 on the arrowheads is almost a necessity for any serious runner expecting magical opposition. i'm not sure you couldn't even use soft-launch shotgun shells or grenades (check out the piston launched grenades for the old M79 for example).
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Gunslinger myssadd alchemist with magic bullets(touch combat spells with touch trigger) is a pretty badass and dangerous consept.
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The current feeling among the Devs seems to be that anything that damages the bullet would destroy the preperation.
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Agreed, combat spells prepared on bullets (so they go off on impact) would not be workable, I think. At the very least, I'd likely ban it for balance reasons. If a player asked why, I'd show them what happens when I put fireball on them, and use a full burst. Remember, anything you can use can be used against you.
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It's been confirmed that one of the errata is that the lynchpin being damaged will destroy the preparation. Aaron did note that it might be possible to use throwing knives.
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it better be possible to use throwing knives. that's really the only way to make combat spell preparations viable versus spells. don't see why arrows would be out with sufficiently tough arrowheads, either.
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Even if knives weren't doable (under the whole no two for one on damage general feeling) magical Molotov Cocktails with a potion in a bottle or glass globe should be easy peasy.
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Throwing weapons definedly don't suffer damage while hitting and should work fine.
But really neither do bullets before they touch the target, at witch point the spell would go off.
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Actually, the firing and the barrel would tear scratches into the bullet.
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As far as combat spells being useful as preparations, I'd say they would be, regardless. However, remember that when you do a 'contact' trigger, the next living being to touch the lynchpin sets it off. Including you, if you pull that knife out of your pocket (or even pick it up to place it in a scabbard). Contact and timed triggers are best used as traps. With some forms of preparations (the onmyudo charm, for instance) using tongs to put it in a bag would keep it safe, so you just have to reach in the bag to activate the spell. But knives and arrows? You touch it and you've already set off the spell. As for a 'Molotov fireball', the lynchpin would be damaged by throwing it, ruining the preparation.
Now, if you're asking how to use a combat spell as a preparation, that is simple enough. WIth a command trigger, you can still do a LOS spell easily enough, since you designate the target when you activate the charm. With area effects, they are best used as traps. Any of the trigger conditions work well for this, essentially turning them into mines. In fact, I'd say that area spells are even better as preparations, especially to cover your trail. Slap a charm on the wall as you run through a door, corpsec on your heels, and wait for them to get through... Fireball. And a timed Powerball/Fireball makes for a WONDERFUL distraction when sneaking into a compound. Who will notice someone cutting the fence when six explosions go off simultaneously on the other side of the compound?
Of course, I personally think that spells like Barrier and Mana Barrier are even better as preparations than as spells. And I can see great use for a Petrify preparation, as well, especially when you let the team's stealth-meister slap it on the guard's back, so you can give the command, or other such things.
The thing about preparations is they have to be prepared ahead of time. This is different from spells, where you can mix and match and keep casting until you fall down from the drain. Different setup, different tactics required. Specifically, you need a different mode of thinking to make the most of preparations. Most combat spells, however, I would agree would be better suited as spells rather than preparations. However, since at higher priority levels a mage (or mystic adept) gets two magic skills at up to rating 5, if you have Spellcasting 5 and Alchemy 5, with specializations for your favorite school of spells, then you're doing quite nicely, don't you think?
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As for a 'Molotov fireball', the lynchpin would be damaged by throwing it, ruining the preparation.
Even if the potion was the lynchpin, not the bottle?
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Spilling the potion would ruin it, so unless you called the command out for it to burst mid-flight, or the time just happened to come up before it hit ground... But otherwise, no. Now, if you had time to prepare, a diagram on the floor, set to a contact trigger, so that the first person to run through that choke point unleashes a Fireball...
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Would a throwing knive that you throw by using the handle set off a lynchpin in the tip? And with an arrow, wouldn't you lynchpin the tip as well, which you don't even touch when firing?
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The lynchpin is the object, not a piece of the object. The whole knife or the whole arrow would be the lynchpin. Now, if the arrowhead was removable in some way, maybe... but swichable arrowheads is more advanced manufacturing, which has an increased object resistance you'd need to deal with to make the preparation to begin with. Now, going back to the onmyudo charms as an example, you could tie one around an arrow (like an arrow letter) and then fire it, or tie one to a throwing knife (like the paper bombs in Naruto) and then set them off with a command after impact. If you're careful, you could even do it so that those were contact charms, but you'd probably take circumstance penalties due to trying to avoid touching the preparation, and so on.
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So you'd basically have to use Command for it to reliably be able to trigger them. Of course that means you're not allowed to trigger them during the turn you throw/fire them, because of the one-attack rule.
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Exactly. Command preparations are the only ones that are really useful in a free-flowing situation. Timed and Contact preparations are traps, distractions, and the like, pure and simple.
Preparations can be insanely useful, especially with non-combat spells such as Chaotic World or Levitate, when used properly. Combat spells as preparations primarily fall in the line of traps, or something you have as a fallback, preparing six Powerbolt charms, just in case you need to keep fighting, but your normal spells either are ineffective, or you can't risk taking the drain right now, or you've been hit with an effect that reduces your drain attributes (drugs, certain spells, etc.).
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My main problem with preparations is that it seems to me like most would last for such a small time that you'd quite possibly be walking into the mission with Drain damage before you even begin. I don't really like that.
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That's kind of the point though. If you cast the spell normally you'd suffer drain. The preperation gives you extra options, and time to mitigate at least some of the drain.
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Yeah, cast everything over six(-ish) hours before you leave for the meet/assault/whatever and plan to do nothing else but rest. If you've got 8 healing dice (body + willpower) that's a pretty safe bet you can heal a minimum of 12 unsoaked drain over that period. (Character's based around Alchemy should take Quick Healing quality.)
That's a few good spells, and you've still got six hours to play with for transport to the run, delays, and then the initial part (at least) of the run before they start losing Potency.
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As far as combat spells being useful as preparations, I'd say they would be, regardless. However, remember that when you do a 'contact' trigger, the next living being to touch the lynchpin sets it off. Including you, if you pull that knife out of your pocket (or even pick it up to place it in a scabbard).
You don't make the whole knife a lynchpin, just the blade itself.
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You don't make the whole knife a lynchpin, just the blade itself.
It's all one aura, though. The real answer here is gloves, assuming it's skin touch and not aura touch that sets these things off.
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It says 'living creature' to touch it, not make skin contact with it. Pretty sure that means aura, so gloves (or a boot, if you stepped on it) would still apply. Tongs or a Magic Fingers spell, however, would not.
And yes, the whole object is the lynchpin, not a part of an object.
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we need official rulings on a lot of these assertions, since if they're true then alchemy basically sucks and the rules for it are stupid.
1) when, exactly, did the arrowhead become part of the arrow? i'm pretty sure most pre-modern arrowheads were affixed to the shaft separately, unless twining something together gives it all one "aura." by that definition, anything contacting the preparation becomes part of its aura, meaning if you drop that death touch preparation you just zotted everyone standing on earth. oops. similarly, if i have a prepared blade in a wood handle, i fail to see how the piece of alloy steel and the barely-polished natural wood somehow combine into a single object that is the preparation when they're radically different from a magical point of view in terms of their individual object resistance. if the blade is prepped separately, it's a separate thing, isn't it?
2) Gloves aren't sufficient to keep you from contacting a preparation? seriously? then the things are nothing but landmines (except when they then zap the entire earth when they touch it) if part 1 is true, then... you couldn't ever carry them on your person; by point 1, it's touching the thing you're carrying it in and you're touching it, so zot. even if point 1 isn't true, then i have to carry the goddamn thing in tongs? everywhere? what's the minimum safe length of tongs i need so that it doesn't contact my aura?
3) you can't set off a preparation in the same phase you throw it? if that's true, honestly, fuck 5th edition. that would take one of the best ideas in the game and turn it into the dumbest thing ever. that's like saying you can't cast a touch spell until the pass after you've made the touch attack. might as well call them nice hug spells. hey, what if i throw the preparation at the ground and set it off, does that make it not an attack action? what if it's a mana barrier prep, not a death touch? is that suddenly ok? oh crap, that barrier manifesting might make that astral creature disrupt? does that make it an attack and not permitted? dumb dumb dumb if true.
4) define "ruins the lynchpin." if it's a thick liquid, as long as most of it stays in one place does that make it okay? you could make a really thick contact preparation and put it in a splash grenade or super squirt capsule then, assuming it stayed in one piece more or less on contact. this, incidentally makes play-doh the preferred medium for touch preparations. does drilling a hole in an arrowhead so you can screw in a modern shaft "destroy the lynchpin?" if you tell me that drilling a hole beforehand into a rock makes it worked enough to qualify for object resistance, i fucking give up; this game is too stupid to live.
suffice to say, i really look forward to these being officially clarified by actual writers of the rules in official errata or faqs at some point.
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Calm down. We're all just speculating and brain storming here.
No one is trying to kill your puppy.
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If the preparation is a liquid (and assuming it splashing around doesn't ruin that) and you put it in a chemical grenade, what happens when it splashes over multiple people at once?
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-1: If you want an official ruling, ask for one in the FAQ topic. Don't go rave and rant on it and then leave it to others to ask for you. If you find it confusing but do not ask, you will not get an answer.
0: Alchemy won't suck just because you cannot put it on ammunition and be done with it.
1: There's a difference between a temporary joining and the parts combined being a whole. Otherwise tossing a physical spell at a camera wouldn't damage the camera but just the one outside metal plate that you happen to be targetting. An arrow is an object. A bow is an object. A commlink is an object. A bow+arrow is, however, not a single object.
2: Aura needs more explanation yes. However, if you're claiming gloves are sufficient, then how does a contact trigger even go off?
3: If you throw a throwing knife at someone, thus performing an attack action, then yes you cannot use the Command action to set off the offensive preparation on the throwing knife because it'd clearly be a double attack. This is unrelated to it going off on Contact, and has nothing to do with making a Touch Attack to cast a Touch Spell because the touch attack as part of the touch spell is 1: Part of the SAME Action, and 2: does not do damage. And yes, that barrier manifesting would then be an attack action, so if you already did an Attack action that Action Phase it is not allowed. Trying to munchkin being able to use 2 Simple Actions in 1 Action Phase for 2 Attack Actions is, by developer call, out of line no matter what case you're trying to argue.
4: If the lynchpin gets damaged, the spell fizzles. No I will not define this. First of, it's common sense, which automatically eliminates liquids and play-doh by being selfdestructive in nature. Second, the official definition will be in the errata, as clearly stated by the developers. If you have specific details you want to check first, because you are unwilling to rely on common sense, then ask them to the developers in the FAQ topic, not to us.
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4: If the lynchpin gets damaged, the spell fizzles. No I will not define this. First of, it's common sense, which automatically eliminates liquids and play-doh by being selfdestructive in nature. Second, the official definition will be in the errata, as clearly stated by the developers. If you have specific details you want to check first, because you are unwilling to rely on common sense, then ask them to the developers in the FAQ topic, not to us.
I don't really feel liquids are "damaged" until there's a part of the liquid no longer connected to the main body of it. That likely excludes grenades, though.
But imagine using the water in a small glass as the lynchpin for an acid spell! Nasty! (It wouldn't turn the water -in- acid, it'd more just splash acid onto you as soon as you drank it, but it still sounds amusing)
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I don't really feel liquids are "damaged" until there's a part of the liquid no longer connected to the main body of it. That likely excludes grenades, though.
But imagine using the water in a small glass as the lynchpin for an acid spell! Nasty! (It wouldn't turn the water -in- acid, it'd more just splash acid onto you as soon as you drank it, but it still sounds amusing)
The thing is, though, the book's descriptions make water an unlikely lynchpin:
The object used as a preparation must be small enough for the magician to lift, handle, and manipulate. The magician alters, marks, sculpts, or otherwise adds a creative touch to the object in the process of making it a preparation.
So ice or playdoh might be doable, and the glass the water is in would definitely work (not sure if it would count as 3 or 6 on the Object Resistance table, though), but water itself seems out of the question.
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0. alchemy that takes several minutes and doesn't work half the time isn't vastly inferior to summoning an invincible kill-tank from nothingness in three seconds or a computer-guided machine gun? you have an interesting definition of not sucking. i am not sure it is the one customarily used in english.
1. common sense says the shaft is not the arrowhead and the blade is not the handle. there's no soul connecting those two things together to make them into an organic whole with an aura like a metahuman, because they're not living objects. and, yes, you could target the handle separately from the blade in my opinion. i'm reasonably sure one could interpret pouring mana into a single plate of a camera and making it melt as causing secondary damage to the rest of the camera, so i don't really see how you have a case there.
2. contact trigger is skin contact. easy enough. otherwise we're carrying contact preparations around with tongs all day or wearing foot-thick wetsuits to keep them just far enough outside of our auras not to go off. stupid.
3. so i resolve the throw as a touch attack. i'm not trying to do damage, it just needs to either pierce skin (for contact) or get close enough (for command). if that's not kosher, then that's frankly bullshit.
4. liquids are self-destructive in nature? please let me run from all of these volatile bottles of water around me then! thank you for that lifesaving warning, i would have perished in when they self-destructed, probably within mere seconds! oh shit, the water is still there. i'm sure it'll self-destruct any minute now. plus, if alchemy can't do fucking MAGIC POTIONS, wow, holy shit, seriously, catalyst? that's not even fantasy novels, that's straight-up quasi-historical records of chinese people drinking quicksilver potions. that's fail as fuck.
again, i'll wait on official rulings rather than answers from the population of a forum that seems to really rock the self-reinforcing "everything is fine" sing-alongs. hopefully said rulings will either fix these issues or confirm that catalyst has no idea what it's doing so i can drop my interest in the game.
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4. liquids are self-destructive in nature? please let me run from all of these volatile bottles of water around me then! thank you for that lifesaving warning, i would have perished in when they self-destructed, probably within mere seconds! oh shit, the water is still there. i'm sure it'll self-destruct any minute now. plus, if alchemy can't do fucking MAGIC POTIONS, wow, holy shit, seriously, catalyst? that's not even fantasy novels, that's straight-up quasi-historical records of chinese people drinking quicksilver potions. that's fail as fuck.
I don't see why you feel the need to be so hostile about this. It seems pretty clear to me he meant that the water, as a liquid, isn't quite permanent enough in shape to be a lynchpin.
Also, you can still have "magical potions" - just put the spell in the bottle.
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just put the spell in the bottle.
I am incredibly amused by the notion that they've essentially reversed the roles of the bottle and the thing inside it, well, kinda :p
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I personally don't see anything in the rules prohibiting a liquid (or a suspension).
A lot of what's being discussed here is in the realm of "what makes since in my game" not the realm of RAW.
Shinryu, you really need to calm down.
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0: Ignoring the attempt to make a sixth topic about Spirits, what do you mean with that it won't work half the time, when there's plenty of tricks as long as you don't try to tie Alchemy to ammunition? Heal spells can be stored up, damage spells can be spread around and activated just like grenades would, illusion and manipulation spells can be put on the ready for when the drek hits the fan, etc.
1: What kind of secondary damage? Provide a fair answer that proves the rules do not see an arrow, a sword, a commlink, a camera as single objects but as a collection of objects and I will grant you your case. If not, then sorry but no, I got a perfectly fine case. I do grant, however, every GM the right to rule this in finer detail. But RAW does not support your point.
2: In other words, Contact will never work as an offensive action against anyone who fully covers their skin unless you pierce the armor, correct?
3: Yes, that'd be fine. If you throw a bottle or such, then the Attack Action clearly is trying to use your lynchpin. So for Command that'd work fine. If on the other hand you use ammunition which also causes damage, then Contact would be the only legit way to let it go off in that same Action Phase.
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4: If you actually do not understand what I meant, I'd find it reasonable for you to ask me what I meant. Since you did not ask but instead launched into a hostile rant, I will assume you knew perfectly well that I meant the lynchpin, not the liquid, would immediately end up destroyed and deliberately misinterpreted my words to cause a fuss. This opinion is supported by your clear intent to not actually ask the developers your questions but instead only argue to other people about it, despite you claiming you do not want to debate them in the first place. Right now all you're doing is throwing input at us and stating at the same time you will not accept our output in response, while not providing developers with input and demanding output from them anyway.
In short terms: Either you will ask in the FAQ topic, you will no longer post in this debate or you are a troll. We are past any other options now.
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I personally don't see anything in the rules prohibiting a liquid (or a suspension).
The thing is, I'm not sure what kind of creative touch you can add to a liquid that won't disappear when it mixes with the liquid. If you manage to think of something, then it's possible.
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I personally don't see anything in the rules prohibiting a liquid (or a suspension).
The thing is, I'm not sure what kind of creative touch you can add to a liquid that won't disappear when it mixes with the liquid. If you manage to think of something, then it's possible.
Would adding colouring to make it fabulous work? Like using organic material mashed together with alchemical reagents to colour and infuse the liquid.
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I think the very process of traditional alchemy, or something like cooking or perfume making which is certainly creative.
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1: There's a difference between a temporary joining and the parts combined being a whole. Otherwise tossing a physical spell at a camera wouldn't damage the camera but just the one outside metal plate that you happen to be targetting. An arrow is an object. A bow is an object. A commlink is an object. A bow+arrow is, however, not a single object.
For the sake of clarity, I have a question regarding order of operations: Per your argument, what happens if an alchemist uses an arrowhead as a lynchpin, and then uses Magic Fingers to attach the arrowhead to the shaft?
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First off, Shinryu, you need to smoke some deepweed and chill out.
0. alchemy that takes several minutes and doesn't work half the time isn't vastly inferior to summoning an invincible kill-tank from nothingness in three seconds or a computer-guided machine gun? you have an interesting definition of not sucking. i am not sure it is the one customarily used in english.
Alchemy takes several minutes to set up in advance, but has the same success rate as a spell would, for what its trying to do. The problem you're having here isn't with alchemy, but with you trying to do things that alchemy isn't supposed to do. Alchemy != grenades. And, to be fair, most combat spells aren't that great as preparations, except as traps. Where alchemy really shines is in setting up a Physical Barrier spell on the wall, so as you're running past on your way out, you give the command, and a wall pops up between you and the corpsec, or other such things.
1. common sense says the shaft is not the arrowhead and the blade is not the handle. there's no soul connecting those two things together to make them into an organic whole with an aura like a metahuman, because they're not living objects. and, yes, you could target the handle separately from the blade in my opinion. i'm reasonably sure one could interpret pouring mana into a single plate of a camera and making it melt as causing secondary damage to the rest of the camera, so i don't really see how you have a case there.
Sorry, but hair-splitting gets you nowhere. Demolish Guns works just fine on the whole gun, not just the barrel. Shatter hits the whole camera, not just the lens. The arrow is a single unit. The bow is a single unit. End of fragging story.
2. contact trigger is skin contact. easy enough. otherwise we're carrying contact preparations around with tongs all day or wearing foot-thick wetsuits to keep them just far enough outside of our auras not to go off. stupid.
See, this is why I say you need to readjust your thinking. For contact preparations, you either carry them in place, or you keep them in a container. A bottle containing a potion of Armor, for instance, or a bag containing an Improved Invisibility charm. Your clothes are considered part of your aura. A bag you're carrying is not. Contact trigger preparations are best done in place. They are extremely inconvenient compared to other preparations, which is why they impose less drain than Command or Timed preparations. Remember, that anything without an aura of its own can be made as a lynchpin, so taking a piece of chalk and spending a few minutes doing a magic circle on the floor along your escape route will allow you to leave a surprise for the corpsec who may be following you, provided everyone in your team remembers to jump over it. Step on the circle and boom!
3. so i resolve the throw as a touch attack. i'm not trying to do damage, it just needs to either pierce skin (for contact) or get close enough (for command). if that's not kosher, then that's frankly bullshit.
A contact preparation would go off when you tried to throw it, unless you still had it in a container of some sort, so unless the person took it out of the container, that's not happening, regardless. If you, say, had a soccer ball with Fireball prepared on it, and tossed it to the target character (simple action) you could then conceivably set the spell off with a second simple action and the Command trigger, yes. My personal favorite, however, would be to prepare an arrow with a spell, shoot it, and then trigger it your next pass. Works especially well if you have passes left, and they don't, or if they aren't expecting it. But no, you couldn't do both in the same pass.
I won't even comment on the rest, because it isn't worth my time.
1: There's a difference between a temporary joining and the parts combined being a whole. Otherwise tossing a physical spell at a camera wouldn't damage the camera but just the one outside metal plate that you happen to be targetting. An arrow is an object. A bow is an object. A commlink is an object. A bow+arrow is, however, not a single object.
For the sake of clarity, I have a question regarding order of operations: Per your argument, what happens if an alchemist uses an arrowhead as a lynchpin, and then uses Magic Fingers to attach the arrowhead to the shaft?
I would say that would disrupt the preparation, unless it was designed to be removable (some modern arrowheads are threaded so you can switch them depending on what you want to do, IIRC). Magic fingers isn't so great with the fine control, so it would be difficult to make an arrow with it, IMHO.
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I would say that would disrupt the preparation, unless it was designed to be removable (some modern arrowheads are threaded so you can switch them depending on what you want to do, IIRC). Magic fingers isn't so great with the fine control, so it would be difficult to make an arrow with it, IMHO.
Well, if I'm being more technical, Magic Fingers is simply a stand-in for "a method for affixing the arrowhead to the arrow without making contact with the arrowhead in a manner that would trigger the preparation". Getting a drone to do it, or something, would work just as well.
For that matter, what if the shaft were also a preparation, and if you wrapped a paper preparation around the shaft?
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I'd say that turning shaft and arrowhead into an arrow would disrupt the preparation, in general. Either one could be prepared normally, but combining them would create a new object. Otherwise, you could have someone arguing that each screw, plate, and so on in a drone could be prepared with a manaball preparation, just fly the drone into a crowd of enemies, and set them off one after another. Going along that road leads to massive brokenness. Now, higher up the order of manufacturing (and with more object resistance, natch) you could, perhaps, put a preparation on, say, the tire of a truck, and another one inside the truck itself. But it is generally a bad idea to go too far along that path.
Preparations generally fall into two categories: traps and utility spells. Any combat spell (as well as spells like Petrify) are best done as traps. Have the preparation in place ahead of time, and then lead the enemy to the target. Utility spells, such as Heal, Combat Sense, or Physical Barrier make for good preparations to carry around with you, and unleash when the time is right. If taking proper precautions (such as using tongs to place them in a bag) then they could even be done as a contact preparation. But in general, Contact preparations are too sensitive to make for good 'talismans' to allow mundanes to tap and then get the benefit of the spell. Which is why you often prepare such things in place. As I said, chalk or marker on a floor tile could prepare a nasty surprise for people, but trying to make them into magical grenades just does not work. The best I can say is throwing a knife with a Command tag attached, and then detonating it on your next action.
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Otherwise, you could have someone arguing that each screw, plate, and so on in a drone could be prepared with a manaball preparation, just fly the drone into a crowd of enemies, and set them off one after another. Going along that road leads to massive brokenness.
And that's different from getting the drone to carry in a bunch of prepared marbles how?
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Because the drone could do that AND carry in the prepared marbles. And a drone carrying a bag of marbles makes a lot bigger impression than a simple fly-spy drone, yeah?
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The crossbows have internal magazines, and I dont think a bolt would be destroyed by firing it, making contact preparation viable against opponents in combat.
While I think alchemists easily could sell their preparations to customers, I dont think they would be willing to part with their more aggresive spells. It would really ruin your day, having to explain to lone star why those 12 kids killed by an acid wave with your astral signature, has absolutely nothing to do with you.
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You still have to get it in the magazine, DZ. And even so, this is one of those cases where you smack the perpetrator with a phonebook until they stop being stupid, because otherwise the corpsec can do the same thing to you, and they aren't going to care about the fact that some 'terrorists' got geeked by a crossbow bolt with a Fireball spell on it. The game is deadly enough as is.
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@Mirikon I do think its possible to make the preparation and load it immidiatly after in the magazine. Same with making other contact preparations and puttiing them in a bag or another container. While I also agree that misusing the system should be dicouraged. I dont think that helping your NAN low tech adept in the party with a flamethrower spell once in a while is breaking the game. You have to remember preparations are weaker than normal spells. Wheras a normal spell would be spellcasting+magic [force] a preparation is Alchemy+magic [force] vs force AND then its force+ potency[force] for the actual effect.
And a crossbow is an inferior weapon most of the time, I like it that it has a niche.
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The prohibition against making two attacks in the same action would still apply. Now, if you could manage to load the bolt without touching it (since contact preparations go off regardless of who the next living being to touch it is) then in your example, I'd say you would have to make the crossbow attack roll as normal to hit the target, but you wouldn't get to do damage with the crossbow. If it hit, then you make the spellcasting test to see if the spell takes effect, and so on.
Honestly, though? I'd still be against it, for a couple reasons. First, adepts in general don't need much in the way of help. They can pretty fragging awesome at the things they do. Second, a real low-tech NAN adept would go with a bow, not a crossbow, since that's what his ancestors used. And you can get nasty things already with a bow adept. Third, that's like saying "Bob wanted to play a mundane human who doesn't use guns or ware, so let's give him a little something so he doesn't feel bad". One of the things this edition is big on (and that I really agree with) is that choices have consequences. That low-tech NAN adept CHOSE to play that way, so he should suffer the consequences for doing that. Not saying to go out of your way to make his life hell, but contorting the rules into easily broken shapes so he doesn't feel like he's failed at life is just out. You're right that a crossbow is an inferior weapon to guns for most people. But if you choose to go that route, then it is your own damn fault that you're inferior to the guy with the assault rifle, and I don't feel sorry for you, end of story.
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I think the very process of traditional alchemy, or something like cooking or perfume making which is certainly creative.
That definitely sounds like it could work, plus it would add some nice roleplaying flavor (heh ;)) to visiting your local street doc: "Your healing potions taste disgusting - can't you add some strawberry flavoring or something?" "It's supposed to taste like that, or it won't work!"
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Except that healing spells have to be command trigger, but otherwise, yeah. I could definitely see potions of Armor, for instance. And I can definitely see some alchemist mixing up a potion of Flamethrower as a trap.
Though my mystic adept with alchemy typically uses onmyudo charms, there are plenty of ways to make it work. You just have to expand your thinking.
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Except that healing spells have to be command trigger, but otherwise, yeah. I could definitely see potions of Armor, for instance. And I can definitely see some alchemist mixing up a potion of Flamethrower as a trap.
Huh... you're right. That just seems silly, especially since with regular casting, you need to be physically touching the target for health spells.
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The prohibition against making two attacks in the same action would still apply.
Technically the rule is no two attack actions in one action phase. So a Contact Trigger combined with ammunition might be legal, since you do not use an action of any kind to trigger it. You throw, and that attack results in taking damage in two ways, just like contact toxins on a sword. However, it's extremely tough to prepare and to manage. Just imagine rolling a critical glitch and suddenly your magazine breaks off and the bolts scatter on the floor and hit your teammates.
Also, where do you put the lynchpin? An engraving in the head, or in the bolt itself? The second would get damaged, the first requires engraving which might damage the air balance and result in a dice penalty. And so on and so forth.
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As for Healing Potions: They wouldn't work as potions, yes, but you could put some Heal charms on the guards. Add magewire, or whatever it was called, so that the Alchemist has Line of Sight on the entire facility and he can trigger the Heal charms when needed in combat.
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The prohibition against making two attacks in the same action would still apply.
There are no "two attack actions" only one that just happens to have have multiple effect, exactly the same as a arrow head or blade dipped in poison has.
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Let's not open up that kettle of fish.
I'm not actually sure that I'm against allowing preperations in a thrown form or on arrows (I would certainly be fine with a command triggered version used by the alchemist). What I am sure of is that I would rule that the preperation goes off at first contact, and thus does no damage from the transmission medium. As there's no delayed contact action the arrow doesn't have time to penetrate before it goes poof.
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As there's no delayed contact action the arrow doesn't have time to penetrate before it goes poof.
Does it say somewhere in the book that the lynchpin is destroyed when the spell goes of?
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As I said, chalk or marker on a floor tile could prepare a nasty surprise for people, but trying to make them into magical grenades just does not work.
"The object used for the preparation is called the lynch- pin. It must be small enough for you to lift, handle, and manipulate."
No floors. Which would in any case introduce the "separable auras" problem in a big way. If an arrow head is the same as the arrow how is a floor not the same as the Earth?
If you want a "don't step on this" trap bring a cloth or something to use as a floor mat. It's a gray area, but some might want to allow you to put a preparation on a hinged door.
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As there's no delayed contact action the arrow doesn't have time to penetrate before it goes poof.
Does it say somewhere in the book that the lynchpin is destroyed when the spell goes of?
Not explicitly, on the other hand it doesn't say you can do double damage with the attack either. If you want an official answer go FAQ it. I suspect you'll get the same answer people get every time they ask if they can double dip for damage, but I could be surprised.
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As there's no delayed contact action the arrow doesn't have time to penetrate before it goes poof.
Does it say somewhere in the book that the lynchpin is destroyed when the spell goes of?
No, and it would be kind of crazy if it did.
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Does it say somewhere in the book that the lynchpin is destroyed when the spell goes of?
Not explicitly, on the other hand it doesn't say you can do double damage with the attack either. If you want an official answer go FAQ it. I suspect you'll get the same answer people get every time they ask if they can double dip for damage, but I could be surprised.
Actually that was far more general question then just contact triggered combat spells, as i had planned on using various pieces of jewelry as lynchpins for my myssadd alchemist occult detective(ala Harry Dresden and the sample character) and thought that maybe i missed something in the alchemy section.
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If anyone wants to see a fictional example of how preparations would work, read Harry Connoly's somewhat obscure Twenty Palaces fantasy series. One of the characters, Annalise, writes her spells on ribbons she wears clipped on a vest under her jacket and drops or throws them to activate them. This includes (short range) fire attacks, mostly, but in later books you get stuff similar to Illusion and Manipulation spells.
Really, the best use is just to save up utility or short range combat spells and heal from the drain in advance of needing them.
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Except that healing spells have to be command trigger, but otherwise, yeah. I could definitely see potions of Armor, for instance. And I can definitely see some alchemist mixing up a potion of Flamethrower as a trap.
Huh... you're right. That just seems silly, especially since with regular casting, you need to be physically touching the target for health spells.
Well, with a preparation, you could have the mage put, say, an onmyudo charm on the corpsec enforcer. He's in the middle of a melee fight against some runners, and you don't want to leave your cover, because they know to geek the mage first. So all you got to do is say the command, guard gets a heal, and the runners are pissed.
As I said, chalk or marker on a floor tile could prepare a nasty surprise for people, but trying to make them into magical grenades just does not work.
"The object used for the preparation is called the lynch- pin. It must be small enough for you to lift, handle, and manipulate."
No floors. Which would in any case introduce the "separable auras" problem in a big way. If an arrow head is the same as the arrow how is a floor not the same as the Earth?
If you want a "don't step on this" trap bring a cloth or something to use as a floor mat. It's a gray area, but some might want to allow you to put a preparation on a hinged door.
Good catch, Silthery. Yeah, you would need a floor mat, or a charm, or something like that. Still, there are definite possibilities there.
Although, a floor or building typically is not regarded as having an aura unless it is made of living material, otherwise mages would certainly have trouble moving through walls, just they have trouble moving through the Earth's aura.
The prohibition against making two attacks in the same action would still apply.
There are no "two attack actions" only one that just happens to have have multiple effect, exactly the same as a arrow head or blade dipped in poison has.
Max, do you by any chance live in Green Bay? Because you seem to have easy access to cheese. Moreover, you're wrong. You have the attack with the arrow, and the spellcasting test for the spell going off. Any GM that lets you get away with it is either a moron or a sadistic bastard who has just found a new way to screw the players for his amusement.
This is splitting hairs and walking down the path of brokenness and rules lawyering, starting an arms race with the GM, a race that he will inevitably win.
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There sure seems to be a fine line here. Using a crossbow is my own damn fault for being inferior to the assault rifle guy. But using the same crossbow with a force 5 potency 3 flamethrower is worthy of a phonebooking. What if I used the same crossbow with a power 15 narcoject injection bolt? Physical damage from the bolt and stun damage from the injection. (grunts only have a single condition modifier)
Contact preparations affects the NEXT living being touching it, so I think it would be doable to create it and load it in a magazine\vial\pouch as long as the alchemists doesnt release it in the meantime to pick his nose, as he would then be the next living being touching it, when he picked it up again.
If you were to cast a mana spell on the bolt, the bolt cant get targeted\damaged by it so it should be fine (depending on wether one thinks mundane bolts are one use)
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Good catch, Silthery. Yeah, you would need a floor mat, or a charm, or something like that. Still, there are definite possibilities there.
Something like a sand painting, or inscribed ritual circle would seem natural for this sort of use.
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double dip for damage
Attacks with poison-coated blades are an exception already, but that's not using 2 Simple Actions for 2 Attack Actions.
You have the attack with the arrow, and the spellcasting test for the spell going off. Any GM that lets you get away with it is either a moron or a sadistic bastard who has just found a new way to screw the players for his amusement.
But in all fairness, there are a few ways in the book where within a single action you cause damage in multiple ways. So while you can easily disallow it as GM, the book does not explicitly forbid causing damage in the SAME action in multiple ways.
Command I wouldn't allow. Contact, however, could work but you definitely need a good explanation on why it won't go off on you, and the GM has every right to explain complications that would ruin your plan.
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Michael, you already said the key word there: exceptions. There are a few specific exceptions in the rules. Alchemy is not amongst those exceptions, therefore it follows the rules, unless something is printed later to change that, or you house rule it at your table.
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Max, do you by any chance live in Green Bay? Because you seem to have easy access to cheese. Moreover, you're wrong. You have the attack with the arrow, and the spellcasting test for the spell going off.
Only one of those is an action of the character the other one is an effect caused by somebody touching a contact trigger preparations.
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Except that p408 does NOT state it is an exception to the 1 Attack Actions per Action Phase. So I have no reason to believe that 1 Attack Action per Action Phase forbids all types of double-offensive-effects-in-one-action.
If you have a section of the rules, or a rule clarification, that proves me wrong, please provide it. But the way things are written as far as I can see, Ammunition+Contact is not explicitly forbidden. Ammunition+Command is.
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Bottom Line: Touch-Trigger Preparations need a FAQ-clarification.
That being said, there are roughly three ways they can work out:
- Touch-Preparations are only good as traps - the mage makes them, drops them and hopes that someone picks them up/steps on them in the next few hours. Which would very severely limit their use, especially since that can be done in a lot of cases with timer-preparations.
- Touch-Preparations can be handed to teammates in a container, allowing them to trigger beneficial spells when they need them without the mage being present. This is what i would prefer to happen, since it gives them something you can't do via other magical means, including other preparations, and is something that can be seen in lots of magic systems (magic potions, prayer strips etc.).
- Touch-Preparations are save enough to handle that you can use them for offensive spells without notable hassle. I don't think that was the intention - handling out buffs to your teammates is one thing, giving them magical attacks another.
As i said, i'm most fond of the second idea.
But either way - even if touch-preparations get made worse, Alchemy will remain useful:
- It's easily possible to take half an hour to make some Preparations, take an hour to drive to the location of your run and heal a bit of stun damage in between.
- Preparations are best for sustained spells, not combat spells (ironic, because all sample preparations are combat spells). You don't have to do anything to sustain it, and they last long enough for any combat - so if you want offensive preparations, use Illusion- or Manipulation-spells!
- You can trigger a Preparation without being physically present - just astrally project and manifest, and you can trigger any command-preparation present.
- While its unclear, it seems like you need the more specialized Disenchanting-spell to counter an activated preparation, so less enemies will be able to do it.
- Last but not least, it only takes a simple action to trigger a command-preparation, so the drain is actually better than with reckless casting.
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- While its unclear, it seems like you need the more specialized Disenchanting-spell to counter an activated preparation, so less enemies will be able to do it.
One of the consequences of the "damaged lynch pins don't work" ruling to prevent bullet preparations is that you can simply shoot (or bash with a club/axe) a preparation to destroy it. But you can't Counterspell it before it detonates, although you should still be able to defend when it activates.
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*Sigh* Yes, someone clearly didn't think the new Alchemy-system through.
There's that whole mess with Contact-Preparations. But Disenchanting isn't clear either.
Sure, you can use it to destroy Foci, and you can destroy a not-yet activated Preparation.
But do you need it to counter the effects of a triggered Preparation, or does that fall under Counterspelling? I don't think destroying the Lynchpin does anything after the Preparation is triggered, but that's another unclear bit.
If the "Lynchpin can't get damaged"-ruling goes into the official FAQ, then Disenchanting becomes near-useless if you can counter an activated Preparation with Counterspelling. So i really hope that they rule you can't, that Disenchanting is needed for it (which would also make Preparations more valuable, since they use lower dicepools anyway).
IMO, Contact-Preparations should be changed to something like this:
You must choose part of the Lynchpin to be the trigger of the Preparation. This can be as small as a single carved rune or as big as the whole surface area. The Preparation is triggered when a living being touches that part of the Lynchpin with it's body - clothes or other protective items do not prevent activation, but using tools would since they are not part of a living aura.
That doesn't take up more text than the other triggers, and makes it much clearer what "touch" constitutes. Plus, it removes the need for shenanigans like "i put the preparation into a container so that i can carry it without touching it".