[UmaroVI]

Yeah, the best part of adepts is when you get to feel awesome because the GM threw a toned-down challenge at you.

Also, adept powers are not "always on." Background count. And if you're giving an example of a dude who has Gaesa on a bunch of his powers, that too. Also, while adepts don't set off MAD scanners, they have auras showing they are awakened. Magic 6 people are, in theory, quite rare so the cops will not send in 3 schmucks with stun batons if they know that they are trying to arrest a magic 6 adept.

[JustADude]

 

Yeah, the best part of adepts is when you get to feel awesome because the GM threw a toned-down challenge at you.

Also, adept powers are not "always on." Background count. And if you're giving an example of a dude who has Gaesa on a bunch of his powers, that too. Also, while adepts don't set off MAD scanners, they have auras showing they are awakened. Magic 6 people are, in theory, quite rare so the cops will not send in 3 schmucks with stun batons if they know that they are trying to arrest a magic 6 adept.

Umaro, buddy, if we're talking about munchkinizing builds, then using Gaesa on everything is fair game. "Never use a firearm" for all of them; boom, done.

Plus, give the guy a bit of Karma to get at least one level of Initiation and he can use Masking to damp down his aura to appear mundane unless the viewer beats him on an Assensing + Intuition vs Intuition + Magic + Initiate Grade opposed test.

[UmaroVI]

That's quite different from the example Gaesa in Street Magic but let's not get into that. Regardless, the rest of my point still stands.

[JustADude]

That's quite different from the example Gaesa in Street Magic but let's not get into that. Regardless, the rest of my point still stands.

Really? So "Never use a gun" isn't a CONDITION to using his Adept powers? Or did you mean that the entry for CONDITION GEAS on page 27 of Street Magic doesn't actually exist and I'm hallucinating?

"You must specify a personal condition to do magic. For example, you must be astrally perceiving, unwounded, sitting in the lotus position, drunk, and so on. When you're not in this condition the geas is broken."

The condition is "No Guns". If I have a gun, then I am not in a condition of "No Guns", so the geas is broken. It's viable.

As for the rest of your argument, please see my edited post above you: Metamagic will easily let you dampen your Aura once you get a little Karma under your belt.

Not to mention the fact that magical searches are far less common than physical ones.

[UmaroVI]

After the initial reassurance that adepts are fine as long as one doesn't care about throwing absolute max dice, all I see is examples of why they suck harder than a joygirl...

I should probably answer this.

What adepts actually need is for someone to go through all of the adept powers and reprice them, remove most of the maximum amount you can take limits, take out the fuckyou clauses, and make a bunch of them scale based on total magic.

Your best bet for actually fixing things in the short-term is probably going to be something like:

Allow Ways
Allow Martial Arts (this helps make melee in general viable)
Allow Adept Gaesa - but with some restrictions. Allow only 1 Gaesa per 2 Magic, and allow only Gaesa of the "actually limiting" variety (like the ones in the book, eg, "Only works during daytime", no "only works if I'm a vegetarian" or stupid shit), and then also allow "Don't have any augmentations" as a Gaesa.

It's a hack, but will probably work.

Alternatively, adepts are fine if you figure out what you want the adept to do (eg, "fight,") and then make sure that the adept is the only one trying to do that.

[UmaroVI]

That's quite different from the example Gaesa in Street Magic but let's not get into that. Regardless, the rest of my point still stands.

Really? So "Never use a gun" isn't a CONDITION to using his Adept powers? Or did you mean that the entry for CONDITION GEAS on page 27 of Street Magic doesn't actually exist and I'm hallucinating?

As for the rest of your argument, please see my edited post above you: Metamagic will easily let you dampen your Aura once you get a little Karma under your belt.

Not to mention the fact that magical searches are far less common than physical ones.

Yeah, you didn't read it correctly. Condition gaesa are a condition on when you CAN DO your magic. "Never use a firearm" is not a condition on when you can use a magic. I guess you could argue "Not currently holding a firearm" as a condition but that's bullshit and we both know it. Take a look at the actual examples - such as requiring that you be drunk while casting spells, only being able to cast spells while astrally perceiving - and it's pretty clear.

Background count?

[UmaroVI]

So, here's an interesting point. The one thing that adept is good at - and in fairness, he is actually good at it, assuming you do allow a "Only while recieving free PP" geas - is being able to walk around looking unarmed and then win close quarters fights. I think you can build a magician who can do the exact same thing better pretty easily, if that really is your heart's desire.

[JustADude]

That's quite different from the example Gaesa in Street Magic but let's not get into that. Regardless, the rest of my point still stands.

Really? So "Never use a gun" isn't a CONDITION to using his Adept powers? Or did you mean that the entry for CONDITION GEAS on page 27 of Street Magic doesn't actually exist and I'm hallucinating?

As for the rest of your argument, please see my edited post above you: Metamagic will easily let you dampen your Aura once you get a little Karma under your belt.

Not to mention the fact that magical searches are far less common than physical ones.

Yeah, you didn't read it correctly. Condition gaesa are a condition on when you CAN DO your magic. "Never use a firearm" is not a condition on when you can use a magic. I guess you could argue "Not currently holding a firearm" as a condition but that's bullshit and we both know it. Take a look at the actual examples - such as requiring that you be drunk while casting spells, only being able to cast spells while astrally perceiving - and it's pretty clear.

Background count?

Yeah, but it IS technically correct, and even though it's a rules-lawyer-y loophole. You freely admit that the powers need to be cheaper... I just made it happen without crippling the character or having to House Rule something. It's just like taking Negative Qualities that will have a minimal impact on your character... like Sensitive System if you never plan on getting implants.

As for Background Count, yeah, that's an issue unless there's someone in the group that can pull Cleansing meta-magic. Of course, which is more likely to happen, a severe Background Count or someone getting their 'Ware hacked, EMPed, shut down by Electrical Damage, or otherwise screwed with?

Answer: Whichever one your GM decides. BG Count is only going to be a severe issue if your GM decides he wants to punish you for playing an Adept and give the Street Sams a free pass.

So, here's an interesting point. The one thing that adept is good at - and in fairness, he is actually good at it, assuming you do allow a "Only while recieving free PP" geas - is being able to walk around looking unarmed and then win close quarters fights. I think you can build a magician who can do the exact same thing better pretty easily, if that really is your heart's desire.

Hey, I never said Magicians weren't better than Adepts. The discussion, here, is between Street Sams and Adepts. I could even build a Gun Adept with WAY fewer Power Points, not to mention the option of swapping out the Thrown Weapon powers for Archery, which would also save me a ton of PP. This build was just to screw around and create an Icy Ork Ninja Of Frosty Doom.

[The Big Peat]

You can also go down the bioware route. Fairly unobvious, won't set off scanners, doesn't fear background counts and if I remember rightly they'll only ever know if they do a blood test on the guy.

And certainly, if we say that with a bit of xp an Adept can get masking metamagic to conceal his biggest giveaway, then the Street Sam is not far behind/already there in terms earning enought to upgrade cyber to bio to remove their biggest giveaway.

edit: However, yes, Adepts do have an advantage there. And given SR's nature, its not inconsiderable. I don't think it compensates for the advantage in broad flexibility for less (while usually being able to do the same things better or as well) that the Augmentated has though.

I also think the biggest problem here really is just how far ahead the Augmented Adept is. I mean, I look at JustADude's infiltrator build and think I could match it with an augment, but am feeling too lazy to do the maths. However, I know that dropping one rank of stealth and using it to buy restricted gear and muscle toner 4 will immediately make it a better character in terms of raw efficiency. Lose traceless walk and one rank of unarmed combat. It shouldn't be that easy and... ok its not, I'd avoid his third choice from Way of the Warrior, so I'd have to lose a bit more, but the point remains.

JustADude: All of the condition clauses are clear examples of something that seriously comes with a downside to be doing while using your Adept powers. Not holding a gun doesn't. Since its an option dependent on GM discretion, I would say that any GM worth his salt would refuse that gaesa and ask for one that matched the others in terms of inconvenience. I don't think using it as an example of what the Adept can do under the rules, because a rules-first GM would probably go no. A nicer GM who wants to be nice to Adepts might go 'yes' but there I would say we're onto GMs modifying the rules. Which is admittedly just as technically finicky as what you're saying.

[Tsuzua]

Public perception and opinions on ware is a whole other issue since that varies wildly on your opinion of the SR world due to no cohensive worldview.  Strength enhancing ware is common enough that dock workers no longer use powered lifts, but everyone may freak out over a cyberlimb. 

However, I did think people are underestimating security response.  Yeah it might be one guy or three at first when it's just them checking them out something.  That's going to be case regardless.  But if you take them out* or show yourself to be a threat, you're getting a full response regardless of who you are.  They aren't going to respond with CR appropriate encounters, they're going to respond with what they got.  If it's three men with stun batons is what they got on hand, then it's three men with stun batons, adept or cybertroll.  If they have an elite group of badasses on site, it's them.  They may call for external help, but unless you're using astral gank squads**, they're going to take a while to arrive. 

A lot of anti-ware options are very all or nothing.  It's not "being a cybertroll might have trouble in certain parts" it's "dudes with wired reflexes or guns can't go on this adventure because the alarm sounds right off the bat." Either everything's pink mohawk because you can't hide anything at all or a mundane PC is useless.  You haven't made adepts better.  You've just made mundanes NPCs who will still beat up adepts.

*- If you're playing this sort of game, your guards should have biomonitors and have already called in.  Now you can hack around this, but that helps adepts as much as it does cybertrolls.

**- Not that I suggest using them.  A group of 3-4 astral mages shooting out a steady stream of force 6 (or higher!) spirits tends to be a TPK or fun only for the mage.

[JustADude]

All of the condition clauses are clear examples of something that seriously comes with a downside to be doing while using your Adept powers. Not holding a gun doesn't. Since its an option dependent on GM discretion, I would say that any GM worth his salt would refuse that gaesa and ask for one that matched the others in terms of inconvenience. I don't think using it as an example of what the Adept can do under the rules, because a rules-first GM would probably go no. A nicer GM who wants to be nice to Adepts might go 'yes' but there I would say we're onto GMs modifying the rules. Which is admittedly just as technically finicky as what you're saying.

Could also make the limit a Talisman Geas, centered around specifically designed Hardliner Gloves, really, since a Talisman just has to be something that has 3 distinct characteristics and is openly displayed.

Example: Black leather, white swatches across the knuckles and palm, and decorated with chrome-colored mystic symbols on the back.

[Xzylvador]

^ In that case though, you can be disarmed and imo, I'd almost say it's the GM's obligation to make sure that happens to you every now and then too. If not, just give free PP's and be done with it.

[The Big Peat]

What that man said. Although given the obvious weakness then yes, I would be cool with it... and would steal them at some point.

[JustADude]

What that man said. Although given the obvious weakness then yes, I would be cool with it... and would steal them at some point.

And I'd be cool with THAT, out of character at least. 

[All4BigGuns]

That's quite different from the example Gaesa in Street Magic but let's not get into that. Regardless, the rest of my point still stands.

Really? So "Never use a gun" isn't a CONDITION to using his Adept powers? Or did you mean that the entry for CONDITION GEAS on page 27 of Street Magic doesn't actually exist and I'm hallucinating?

"You must specify a personal condition to do magic. For example, you must be astrally perceiving, unwounded, sitting in the lotus position, drunk, and so on. When you're not in this condition the geas is broken."

The condition is "No Guns". If I have a gun, then I am not in a condition of "No Guns", so the geas is broken. It's viable.

As for the rest of your argument, please see my edited post above you: Metamagic will easily let you dampen your Aura once you get a little Karma under your belt.

Not to mention the fact that magical searches are far less common than physical ones.

Careful with this one, there are GMs out there who'll have an NPC use Palming to plant a gun on you to force you to unknowingly break the geas, losing the powers that are attached to it just to f*** you over.