[Ursus Maior]

The Wyrm nails it. Yet again!

[Herr Brackhaus]

Again, you're talking technicals; one wonders whether your games are just figuring out modifiers and rolling dice, or roleplay.

I'd like to address this attitude once and for all because I think it's necessary.

Run & Gun page 107:
"Not all gamers like the same kind of game."

Expressing your opinion is perfectly fine, you are of course entitled to it. I do not think you have the right to denigrate those who do not share your point of view, however, and I am honestly surprised that you off all people are not more tolerant of other peoples opinion. Considering you are someone who obviously has a long history of gaming, vast knowledge of the Shadowrun setting, and is a respected voice on these forums, I expected more from you than the kind of posts I've seen over the past few weeks.

So what if someone wants clear rules and enjoys the technical and mechanical aspects of a game, perhaps to the point where the game becomes more about rolling dice than roleplaying a character. As long as the game is fun for the participants, who are we, or indeed anyone, to judge?

To quote the Shadowrun 5th Edition rulebook:
"The rules are here so that you and the gamemaster can determine the outcome of your actions. Did the shot from your Ares Predator V hit the ork ganger right between the tusks? Are you able to sneak past the sleepy dwarf guard without waking him up? Did you counter the stunball the troll mage threw at you and dissolve it into millions of pieces of glittery mana?"
These same principles can be applied to every aspect of the game; finding a balance between game mechanics, roleplaying, and having fun is up to each individual person and table, and is not something that can be easily quantified in my opinion.

That's all I wanted to say.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

First, finish the quote:

Not all gamers like the same kind of game. Imaginations run at different levels, and while some people are firmly grounded in the real world and like their games to mirror reality as closely as they can, others want quick and simple rules to provide groundwork for their storytelling descriptions. Still others want to find a way to balance it all as best one can and still have a game that is fun to play for everyone.

Second, here's the thing, Herr Brackhaus - I'm not denigrating it.  You're isolating my statement of preferences and attributing to both them and I an assortment of denigration, contempt, and superciliousness that just ain't there.  Let me sum up the conversation above, since - going by your post and your isolated quote - it doesn't appear that you read all of it.

Lucean: Numbers!!  Don't be stupid.
Wyrm: Yeah, that's what the numbers say, but the GM should emphasize the social impact.
Lucean: How would you do that?  Because Numbers!!
Wyrm: That's the technicals; do you play only technicals, dude?  "RPed Social Impact!!"
HerrB: Wyrm, you're a dick.

So really, what we have here is a conversation from people who are strongly on two different sides of the fence (though I'll argue that I DO care about the technicals, but not so much that I won't make a 'bad technicals decision' for a good RP reason) who are providing examples of the way they play and run.  One says 'it's all about the numbers', and one says 'there's more to life than numbers! Lookit - pretty butterflies!!'  And in the middle there are oodles of people who are going 'huh, that's an interesting way to put it' and are taking BOTH his highly-technical view AND my strongly-RPed view back to their games to create their own blending.

Meanwhile, you are providing bitching and text evidence.  Text evidence is good (to an extent), but can also limit (on occasion).  Bitching - at me or at Lucean - when we are giving examples and viewpoints and opinions, is providing more noise and less signal.  I, for one, really wish you would stop, because unless I'm attacking Lucean - which I'm not, and I'm not really even attacking his game - it ain't your place.

[All4BigGuns]

Quite frankly, I was glad that 4th did away almost entirely with the "Essence Loss makes everyone think you're a freak" thing and think that that it was a huge mistake to bring it back. There really was no reason to other than that some players from 1st edition wanted it back.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Well, it's part of the genre - people who can do things that ordinary people can't do look at the world in a different way.  Big trolls can bench-press your car, they wouldn't think anything about lifting up a hundred-pound sack of flour, for example; all the metaraces can see in the dark one way or the other, so why bother with anything but night-lights in your house, you know?

One of the better ways I found of looking at this was a scale of what would be Negative Qualities - psychological and physical issues that develop from increasing amounts of implants as well as magic.  Developed originally by Mary Kuhner, the writer of the Jayhawk fic (first bit here), it tracked both cybernetic implants (CyberEssence) and magical power (Magic Essence); the latter went with a simple1:1 ratio of your Magic to your MagicEssence.  How many (or how strong) your psych issues were was dependent on how much you had, which I formalized to one point of psychological problems per 0.5 of either CE or ME.  You also had physical problems based on your Magic Essence, at 1 point's worth per full point of ME.

CE psych issues tended towards antisocial and dissociative behavior, seeing the world more as a machine, or just as the rest of reality being lesser.  ME psych issues tended towards weirdly-social, even overly-social behavior, as well as obsessive/compulsive and 'lucky' activities.  Physical issues tended towards allergies and dietary restrictions.

It led to some very interesting RP when I used it, and included some more interesting RP when I arranged for ways to reduce those impacts by getting back in touch with your humanity ...

[All4BigGuns]

Well, it's part of the genre - people who can do things that ordinary people can't do look at the world in a different way.  Big trolls can bench-press your car, they wouldn't think anything about lifting up a hundred-pound sack of flour, for example; all the metaraces can see in the dark one way or the other, so why bother with anything but night-lights in your house, you know?

One of the better ways I found of looking at this was a scale of what would be Negative Qualities - psychological and physical issues that develop from increasing amounts of implants as well as magic.  Developed originally by Mary Kuhner, the writer of the Jayhawk fic (first bit here), it tracked both cybernetic implants (CyberEssence) and magical power (Magic Essence); the latter went with a simple1:1 ratio of your Magic to your MagicEssence.  How many (or how strong) your psych issues were was dependent on how much you had, which I formalized to one point of psychological problems per 0.5 of either CE or ME.  You also had physical problems based on your Magic Essence, at 1 point's worth per full point of ME.

CE psych issues tended towards antisocial and dissociative behavior, seeing the world more as a machine, or just as the rest of reality being lesser.  ME psych issues tended towards weirdly-social, even overly-social behavior, as well as obsessive/compulsive and 'lucky' activities.  Physical issues tended towards allergies and dietary restrictions.

It led to some very interesting RP when I used it, and included some more interesting RP when I arranged for ways to reduce those impacts by getting back in touch with your humanity ...

I just feel that such things should be restricted entirely to 100% voluntarily qualities that can be taken or not depending on if they are wanted by the player (with the GM having Zero authority of 'bestowing' those). One shouldn't have their character treated like a freak because they built it to be very capable in its field.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I don't disagree, honestly - but the social penalty applied is in this case less a matter of 'how you look at the world', and more about 'how the world looks at you'.  Right now, the only way to track how much 'ware you have is through your Essence, which for these purposes kind of sucks.  In some cases, you can have 5.99 essence worth of cyberware and all of it might be subtle, which means the world has no way of knowing that you ARE a wired-up ready-to-slaughter-everyone-in-the-room combat monster, you know?

So yeah, I'm kind of two minds about that myself.

[Darzil]

I think it's mainly an issue if you also dumpstatted Charisma as well as dropping your Essence, Charisma is twice as important after all.

(as, it seems, did 75% of our team!)

[Glyph]

I like the roleplaying aspects of augmentation, but I think it should cover a lot more ground than "You have low Essence, so people are automatically freaked out by you".  I think people would act in many different ways to augmentations.  Some people might react to them negatively, feeling freakish, or that they are being forced to sell away bits and pieces of their humanity to keep ahead of the rest of the street scum.  Some people might react with joy and wonder to their enhanced capabilities.  Suppose you were paralyzed from the neck down, but now you can run, leap, and dance.  Suppose you were a nearsighted nerd with insomnia - now you are hot-looking, can see with 20/20 vision even at night, and you only need 3 hours of sleep a night.  For some people, their enhanced capabilities might turn them a bit contemptuous of all of those plodding, weak, fragile meatbags; I imagine a combat-oriented adept might have a similar mindset.

Essence loss already does have a quantifiable penalty.  I agree with All4BigGuns that additional effects should be something the player opts into, rather than the GM imposing additional NPC "reactions".

[Shaidar]

The player "opted into" the additional effects when they decided to instal the 'ware in their character.

[Sternenwind]

But not everyone “opted into” additional effect covert under “optional rules”.

[Medicineman]

The player "opted into" the additional effects when they decided to instal the 'ware in their character.

and thats why more and more Player opt for an awakened Char (just have a look at the new introduced Chars a majority is Awakened (and a majority of these are Adepts)

with a Dance to the "Prayerwheel" that SR5 turns into Magerun
Medicineman

[All4BigGuns]

The player "opted into" the additional effects when they decided to instal the 'ware in their character.

No, the player did not opt into ridiculous punitives like that just by taking the implants on their character. Opting into such things would be taking a Negative Quality. Nothing else is acceptable for such.

[MijRai]

The player "opted into" the additional effects when they decided to instal the 'ware in their character.

No, the player did not opt into ridiculous punitives like that just by taking the implants on their character. Opting into such things would be taking a Negative Quality. Nothing else is acceptable for such.

Incorrect, seeing as a number of 'positive' qualities actually have negative drawbacks (some of them prohibitive).  I consider that pretty ridiculous in most cases (sans mentor spirit, the drawbacks make sense there), but it's a part of the setting.  If you get something in game, you have to take the consequences.  It isn't ridiculous, and it fits the history of the setting and the lore. 

[MijRai]

No, you are incorrect. What is ridiculous is the extra "viewed as a Freak" crap that got brought up. The hit to Social Limit probably should be played, but it should be played by the player with any NPC reactions along the "Freak" lines solely being from Negative Qualities.

Again, RP is important, but the Game Aspect is just as important. Actually more important since one can just sit down for cooperative Story Time for "Pure RP".

Okay, show me where, in the books, that I'm incorrect on a number of positive qualities having negative impacts (please, since you called me incorrect on that). 

Now, would you show me where the books say you don't take social penalties from being 'wared up/having low Essence (hint, Core rulebook specifically says having 'ware gets you looked at much closer, further restricted, etc.)?  Also, show me where such an idea goes against the theme of the game.  Multiple editions would help.

Third, tell me where in the books it says you can get something for nothing (hint, take a look at pages 20-23 of the Core rulebook for the game's stance).  Essence/humanity for 'ware is a common one. 

It's not ridiculous.  It's a part of the setting that the more 'ware you have/the less Essence you have, the less 'human' you are.  In essence (ha, punny), the less Essence you have, regardless of being Drained by a Strain I Infected or from losing it to 'ware, the more of a freak you are.  It's a mechanic that exists outside of negative qualities, but it's there.