[Crunch]

I'll have to think about making the grenade rule net hits. I'm not sure how I feel about it (again that is expressly a cinematic/party survivability tweak I don't think the rule is bad as written, I just want something a little less lethal).

[ZeConster]

The Dodge rules makes sense against grenades, since the rules system is a discrete representation of a continuous situation, meaning you'd see the grenade coming and have a chance to create distance (since scatter isn't dependent on distance, the time needed for the grenade to land might be constant enough that you won't have to fiddle with dodge bonuses/penalties depending on the Range) before it lands.
It might be different with spells, though: while page 280 and page 283 combined can be interpreted as "non-subtle AoE spells will be noticed when they're travelling to the point of impact, and even with subtle AoE spells, you can make a test to notice them", I'm not sure if the time between the spell being sent off and the spell hitting the point of detonation is enough to justify a Dodge test.

[All4BigGuns]

O_o The hell? Ya'll quick to jump behind Crunch when he agrees with you and adds eloquence to your arguments, and quick to jump down his throat when he houserules. I mean, I disagree with the guy about a lot of stuff (mostly for fun, truth be told) but based entirely on how he presents himself I'd put my money on him being a good to great GM. The only areas I can't be sure of is how his work-ethic and characterization are, and I can only infer how he interacts with his players, but I don't know that from anyone I haven't played with. Saying that he isn't "doing his job" as a GM is unduly harsh.

From what I can tell it's pretty much two that just want to argue and one who is just trolling today.

You're going to have to name names and explain yourself here - coming into a topic and saying "two of you are just looking to argue for the sake of arguing, and one of you is trolling" without any explanations as to why you think so, is something I consider trolling.

Not you, definitely. We don't agree on the subject of cyber limbs, and you do seem to get into a bit of a butthead mode at times but I haven't ever seen you go quite into trolling.

[ZeConster]

Not you, definitely. We don't agree on the subject of cyber limbs, and you do seem to get into a bit of a butthead mode at times but I haven't ever seen you go quite into trolling.

That is the most positive thing I remember you ever saying about me - thanks!
Speaking of cyberlimbs: Crunch, while I don't necessarily agree with your current houserule on them, I do look forward to 'seeing' it in action: please try to encourage at least one of your players to try out a cyberarm, since a 5/5 human can still have a 9/8 cyberarm with internal shotgun for 86k.

[Crunch]

Not you, definitely. We don't agree on the subject of cyber limbs, and you do seem to get into a bit of a butthead mode at times but I haven't ever seen you go quite into trolling.

That is the most positive thing I remember you ever saying about me - thanks!
Speaking of cyberlimbs: Crunch, while I don't necessarily agree with your current houserule on them, I do look forward to 'seeing' it in action: please try to encourage at least one of your players to try out a cyberarm, since a 5/5 human can still have a 9/8 cyberarm with internal shotgun for 86k.

We'll see if someone decides to roll that way. I typically try to make sure my chargen house rules are laid out before I get final draft characters. I find it makes it less likely for people to take things personally (not that that's a big problem in my group, but I find that politeness always pays). Right now I have a Street Shaman, Gymnast/Free Runner Adept,  a former company man Street Sam and a Drone Rigger so I should get to see a fairly broad swath of builds on their feet.

[All4BigGuns]

Not you, definitely. We don't agree on the subject of cyber limbs, and you do seem to get into a bit of a butthead mode at times but I haven't ever seen you go quite into trolling.

That is the most positive thing I remember you ever saying about me - thanks!
Speaking of cyberlimbs: Crunch, while I don't necessarily agree with your current houserule on them, I do look forward to 'seeing' it in action: please try to encourage at least one of your players to try out a cyberarm, since a 5/5 human can still have a 9/8 cyberarm with internal shotgun for 86k.

We'll see if someone decides to roll that way. I typically try to make sure my chargen house rules are laid out before I get final draft characters. I find it makes it less likely for people to take things personally (not that that's a big problem in my group, but I find that politeness always pays). Right now I have a Street Shaman, Gymnast/Free Runner Adept,  a former company man Street Sam and a Drone Rigger so I should get to see a fairly broad swath of builds on their feet.

I just think that you should just go simple with your cyber limb house rule. Keep your armor averaging if you want, but for the attributes just add the sentence "You can only customize up to your natural value." It stops the shenanigans, but it doesn't unduly limit as the cyber limb user would still be able to enhance more than other characters can enhance their attributes.

[Crunch]

I just think that you should just go simple with your cyber limb house rule. Keep your armor averaging if you want, but for the attributes just add the sentence "You can only customize up to your natural value." It stops the shenanigans, but it doesn't unduly limit as the cyber limb user would still be able to enhance more than other characters can enhance their attributes.

Actually that was the original proposal. The point was made, and I think it's fair, that simply applying the Aug max is more consistent with the rest of the augmentation rules and a little more generous to the player. The other problem with simply limiting customization is it still allows a Str 1 character to use a Str 6 cyberlimb unless you seperately invoke the aug max
 

[ZeConster]

I just think that you should just go simple with your cyber limb house rule. Keep your armor averaging if you want, but for the attributes just add the sentence "You can only customize up to your natural value." It stops the shenanigans, but it doesn't unduly limit as the cyber limb user would still be able to enhance more than other characters can enhance their attributes.

Enhancements only go up to +3, though, and uncustomized cyberlimbs still come at 3/3, so a houserule like that would limit cyberlimbs to +3 if you're at 3+ Agi/Strength, but +4 at 2 and +5 at 1. Of course, his current houserules still allow some min-maxing (customize to racial limit, then use the more expensive enhancements to get to the +4) if you're not softcapped, so I'd personally go with "customization by up to natural attribute value plus one, +4 augmentation limit applies to final attribute value of cyberlimb", and maybe include a "possible to 'upgrade' the customization if your natural attribute increases at any point". This way cyberlimbs are restricted to +4, there's no min-maxing with customization versus enhancements possible, and if you increase your natural attribute, you can 'upgrade' your cyberlimb instead of having to buy a new one.

[All4BigGuns]

I just think that you should just go simple with your cyber limb house rule. Keep your armor averaging if you want, but for the attributes just add the sentence "You can only customize up to your natural value." It stops the shenanigans, but it doesn't unduly limit as the cyber limb user would still be able to enhance more than other characters can enhance their attributes.

Actually that was the original proposal. The point was made, and I think it's fair, that simply applying the Aug max is more consistent with the rest of the augmentation rules and a little more generous to the player. The other problem with simply limiting customization is it still allows a Str 1 character to use a Str 6 cyberlimb unless you seperately invoke the aug max

Okay, then the sentence "You may only customize a cyber limb up to your current natural attribute value, and at no time may any of the limb's attributes exceed current natural value + 4."

[SoulGambit]

Lets say a kid steals an eraser from a teacher. The teacher gets up, addresses the class about how stealing erasers in general is wrong. Was the teacher really talking to the whole class? No. But the person s/he was talking to knows who they are. Same here.

Personally I do customize up to the natural value. It really wasn't a conscious decision, that's just how everyone at my table (including myself) assumed it worked at the time and I've yet to correct anyone. If your Street Sam complains about not getting the full +4 that's possible from muscle, et cetera either let the Suprathyroid stack with the arms or let the STR/AGI Enhancement go up to +4. That's a lot simpler.

[ZeConster]

Okay, then the sentence "You may only customize a cyber limb up to your current natural attribute value, and at no time may any of the limb's attributes exceed current natural value + 4."

That would still allow characters with 1 or 2 in a stat to get their cyberlimbs to +4, while those with more balanced stats would be stuck with +3.

[All4BigGuns]

Okay, then the sentence "You may only customize a cyber limb up to your current natural attribute value, and at no time may any of the limb's attributes exceed current natural value + 4."

That would still allow characters with 1 or 2 in a stat to get their cyberlimbs to +4, while those with more balanced stats would be stuck with +3.

Would you rather have that or just having everything use the averaging of the natural and limb attributes (incorporating the head into the averaging)? Using the average on everything is a quicker fix after all.

[ZeConster]

Okay, then the sentence "You may only customize a cyber limb up to your current natural attribute value, and at no time may any of the limb's attributes exceed current natural value + 4."

That would still allow characters with 1 or 2 in a stat to get their cyberlimbs to +4, while those with more balanced stats would be stuck with +3.

Would you rather have that or just having everything use the averaging of the natural and limb attributes (incorporating the head into the averaging)? Using the average on everything is a quicker fix after all.

I would rather you cap cyberlimbs at [whatever you can customize them to] + 1, so if you cap them at +4, allow customization to +1; but if you only allow customization to +0, cap cyberlimbs at +3.

[All4BigGuns]

All in all though, the problem lies in the cyber limbs having their own attributes. It would have been far better for the limb to just have whatever attribute the character had (not including other implants like Muscle Replacement/Toner/Augmentation. This way there would be no confusion and the other purposes for the cyber limbs such as other 'gimmicks' installed and the cyber limb armor would be intact.

[emsquared]

Oh man, the fact that one of you thanks A4BG for insulting you and the other sees him as a teacher is just... ...well, something.

My arguments were honest critiques to what I perceive as unnecessary changes to the mechanics. Crunch did I troll you?